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  #201  
Old 03-30-2017, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
And I think Neil should be fired if this does not work out.
Honestly, he should probably be fired now if he was seriously considering some of the names that got out there.
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  #202  
Old 03-30-2017, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
He was so short that no one remembers him? Oh man. I wonder if will even know who Archie Miller is tomorrow!
I probably didn't type that very clear. I was saying people remember him because he was so short. Other than that, I doubt any of the kids today have any point of reference on his playing days.
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  #203  
Old 03-30-2017, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
We just had our best coach in 30 years, and we went with an external guy, with a very sketchy track record, to replace him.

I am just stunned.
With all due respect, what is not to like about him? A few positives at a high level...

- A UD alum.
- Co-Captain and solid college hoops player while at UD.
- Head Coach of 2 D1 programs. One being a Power 5 school.
- NBA assistant coaching experience.
- Played and coached with some of the all-time greats... Don Donoher and Billy Donovan.
- A 1st-Class individual with the utmost integrity and character.

You can argue about the track record all you want. What "internal guy" has a track record to even consider? All will be good...

Go Flyers!
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  #204  
Old 03-30-2017, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 View Post
Fill in the blank tOSU. So you are saying Matta is a concern for how many years now?
Seriously? He has made the NCAAT every year at OSU except for the last 2 and one other year, and he won the NIT in the other year. And he has 2 Final 4's and an Elite 8 there.

And he may get fired next year if he misses the NCAAT again.

The AD at OSU already had to issue a statement of support this year.

Last edited by ud2; 03-30-2017 at 06:23 PM..
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  #205  
Old 03-30-2017, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
UD2 and OSU Flyer

You guys keep going on and on about how this is such a bad hire but have not given any names for who is the candidate that is so great that make you hate this hire? I would really like to see names. Every coach that has been talked about has flaws. There was not 1 big time coach out there. Don't get me wrong AG was not my first choice, but I am still happy, I think he fits the culture well. Let's see these perfect candidates that have no flaws at all.
Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
This is a potentially disastrous hire in terms of failing to maintain our momentum.

I would give AG a very short leash.

There is no reason that he should not have UD back in the NCAAT by year 3 or year 4.

If UD is not back in the NCAAT by year 4, then I think UD should pull the plug and replace him and move on.

I am not in favor of giving him 6 or 7 or 8 years. We did that with BG, and things never got better.
Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
And I think Neil should maybe be fired, or reassigned elsewhere, if this does not work out.

We just had our best coach in 30 years, and we went with an external guy, with a very sketchy track record, to replace him.

I am just stunned.
Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Seriously? He has made the NCAAT every year at OSU except for the last 2 and one other year, and he won the NIT in the other year. And he has 2 Final 4's and an Elite 8 there.

And he may get fired next year if he misses the NCAAT again.

The AD at OSU already had to issue a statement of support this year.
UD2, you are continuing to throw all this out without giving any real fact or substance to your argument and without offering any better choices. You just keep repeating the same things over and over again. If I tell my boss I hate his idea, I better have good reasons and good alternatives. Who was a better choice? Why do you continue to only look at his time at Bama and not what he did at VCU? What is so "sketchy" about his past? Has he already said he is against the 15/15 H&A schedule?
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  #206  
Old 03-30-2017, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
This is a potentially disastrous hire in terms of failing to maintain our momentum.

I would give AG a very short leash.

There is no reason that he should not have UD back in the NCAAT by year 3 or year 4.

If UD is not back in the NCAAT by year 4, then I think UD should pull the plug and replace him and move on.

I am not in favor of giving him 6 or 7 or 8 years. We did that with BG, and things never got better.
What? We just hired a guy who has gobs of big time experience and has recruited at the highest level. I think you need to settle down a bit.
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  #207  
Old 03-30-2017, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
Avery played in the NBA. That's like totally different. Honestly, I think people are overblowing this NBA stuff. Anthony's background is a selling point. But kids aren't going to worship the ground Anthony Grant walks on because he was an NBA assistant coach.
Avery Johnson landing Collin Sexton might be an indication that the NBA relationship holds some real value with recruits. But it's hard to tell the impact. Avery Johnson had his number retired by the Spurs, was named Sportsman of the Year and was named Coach of the Year in the NBA. Plus the name recognition of being on ESPN for a few years. That's a pretty good resume to take into a kid's living room and present to the family.

AG doesn't have that type of resume. I think the NBA portion of his resume is a selling point especially because OKC is high caliber/high visabiltiy team. Hopefully, he can sell it. And quickly. If his first few classes are good and we continue to get to tournament, it will become part of the narrative and something he can always build on.

I think it loses the value it has pretty quickly if he cannot leverage it in the first few recruiting classes (including transfers).
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  #208  
Old 03-30-2017, 07:28 PM
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Totally agree with m21eagle45 and would like to see facts from UD2 and OSU Flyer. Here are some facts:

(1) Anthony Grant's average kenpom rating is almost the same as Archie Miller's whereas Brian Gregory's was materially lower. BG's average kenpom rating was 87 in 8 years at Dayton with a range of 26 to 131; Archie Miller's average kenpom rating in 6 years was 53 with a range of 39 to 59; Anthony Grant's average knepom rating at VCU/Bama was 58 with a range of 26 to 86.

(2) Anthony Grant took VCU to a much higher level than Jeff Capel whereas Shaka Smart moved it up nicely, but not close to the jump made by Grant. Capel averaged #107 in kenpom and #4 in conference play. Grant took that up +48 spots to #59 average in kenpom and #1 in conference play. Shaka kept the momentum going, but it slowed down increasing +21 spots to #38 average but decreasing - 2 spots in conference to an average of #3.

(3) Grant is a great recruiter and now his OKC experience will . Grant has had great classes at both VCU and Alabama. Just one example, he had the #6 class in the nation in 2013. http://www.al.com/alabamabasketball/...ecruiting.html

(4) I do think Archie is a better Xs and Os guys as he has won more close games and the feedback from players, assistants, and neutral observers is that Archie is a masterful strategist and tactician.

(5) Archie's record in the NCAA is better than Grant's, but Anthony had 3 of 4 games versus top 15 teams where he was 1-2; whereas Archie was 0-3 versus top 15 teams. Draw matters and Archie has had better overall draws. Archie was 5-4 in NCAA Tourney games whereas Anthony Grant is 1-3 in NCAA games, but two big caveats:
(a) Anthony played #10 Duke, #11, Pitt, #12 UCLA, and #28 Creighton -- Archie played #19 Ohio State, #18 Syracuse, #34 Stanford, #3 FL, #47 Boise State, #27 Providence, #11 Ok. St., #27 Syracuse, and #8 Wichita State. ARCHIE HAS NEVER BEATEN A TOP 15 TEAM IN THE NCAA TOURNEY, HE WAS 0-3. Anthony Grant was 1-2 versus top 15 teams in the NCAA Tourney and lost the other 2 games in OT and by 1. Archie honestly got killed by FL and OK, but Wichita St was close. Archie was 2-0 versus teams 16-25, Grant was 0-0, Archie was 3-1 versus teams 26-50 whereas Grant was 0-1.
(b) I would chalk it up to a combination of luck and skill, but Archie beat Ohio State by 1, Syracuse by 2, and Boise State by 1. Grant lost to Pitt in OT, UCLA by 1, and Creighton by 1. I truly believe Archie a better X and O coach, but he was lucky in these games and Grant was unlucky. A couple different bounces of the ball and Grant would be considered a much better coach.

I agree with other posters, let's get the facts on the table, not wild speculation.

Last edited by ruechalgrin; 03-30-2017 at 10:51 PM..
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  #209  
Old 03-30-2017, 07:29 PM
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Listening to Anthony on WLW he says he wants use experiences he picked up in OKC in the college game
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  #210  
Old 03-30-2017, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
This is a potentially disastrous hire in terms of failing to maintain our momentum.

I would give AG a very short leash.

There is no reason that he should not have UD back in the NCAAT by year 3 or year 4.

If UD is not back in the NCAAT by year 4, then I think UD should pull the plug and replace him and move on.

I am not in favor of giving him 6 or 7 or 8 years. We did that with BG, and things never got better.
Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
And I think Neil should maybe be fired, or reassigned elsewhere, if this does not work out.

We just had our best coach in 30 years, and we went with an external guy, with a very sketchy track record, to replace him.

I am just stunned.
Oh geez, here we go again, over and over and over again. I'd rather talk about the 15/15 schedule.
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  #211  
Old 03-30-2017, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Totally agree with m21eagle45 and would like to see facts from UD2 and OSU Flyer. Here are some facts:

(1) Anthony Grant's average kenpom rating is almost the same as Archie Miller's whereas Brian Gregory's was materially lower. BG's average kenpom rating was 87 in 8 years at Dayton with a range of 26 to 131; Archie Miller's average kenpom rating in 6 years was 53 with a range of 39 to 59; Anthony Grant's average knepom rating at VCU/Bama was 88 with a range of 26 to 86.

(2) Anthony Grant took VCU to a much higher level than Jeff Capel whereas Shaka Smart moved it up somewhat. Capel averaged #107 in kenpom and #4 in conference play. Grant took that up +48 spots to #59 average in kenpom and #1 in conference play. Shaka kept the momentum going, but it slowed down increasing +21 spots to #38 average but decreasing - 2 spots in conference to an average of #3.

(3) Grant is a great recruiter and now his OKC experience will . Grant has had bad classes at both VCU and Alabama. Just one example, he had the #6 class in the nation in 2013. http://www.al.com/alabamabasketball/...ecruiting.html

(4) I do think Archie is a better Xs and Os guys as he has won more close games.

(5) Archie's record in the NCAA is better than Grant's, but Anthony had 3 of 4 games versus top 15 teams where he was 1-2; whereas Archie was 0-3 versus top 15 teams. Draw matters and Archie has had better overall draws. Archie was 5-4 in NCAA Tourney games whereas Anthony Grant is 1-3 in NCAA games, but two big caveats:
(a) Anthony played #10 Duke, #11, Pitt, #12 UCLA, and #28 Creighton -- Archie played #19 Ohio State, #18 Syracuse, #34 Stanford, #3 FL, #47 Boise State, #27 Providence, #11 Ok. St., #27 Syracuse, and #8 Wichita State. ARCHIE HAS NEVER BEATEN A TOP 15 TEAM IN THE NCAA TOURNEY, HE WAS 0-3. Anthony Grant was 1-2 versus top 15 teams in the NCAA Tourney and lost the other 2 games in OT and by 1 Archie honestly got killed by FL, OK, and Wichita Stat was close. Archie was 2-0 versus teams 16-25, Grant was 0-0, Archie was 3-1 versus teams 26-50 whereas Grant was 0-1.
(b) I would chalk it up to a combination of luck and skill, but Archie beat Ohio State by 1, Syracuse by 2, and Boise State by 1. Grant lost to Pitt in OT, UCLA by 1, and Creighton by 1. I truly believe Archie a better X and O coach, but he was lucky in these games and Grant was unlucky. A couple different bounces of the ball and Grant would be considered a much better coach.

I agree with other posters, let's get the facts on the table, not wild speculation.
I posted a break down of Dennis Felton vs. Anthony Grant here
http://udpride.com/forums/showpost.p...&postcount=321

I look at bringing in the #6 recruiting class in the country and then getting fired speaks to something going wrong there.

As far as the Ken Pom. That's one data point. I look at his record and what happened at Alabama. The SEC was the weakest power 5 conference when has there. Mark Gottfried did better at Alabama than Anthony did his tenure by a wide margin. Alabama isn't an Auburn that's been a complete black hole. To explain away his time there as "it's a football school doesn't hold water"

In a weak SEC he had a losing record in conference play his last two years. Years 5 & 6 with his guys.

I've post various break downs of the coaches I like in various threads around here. I wrote a novel about John Brannen
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Old 03-30-2017, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post

(2) Anthony Grant took VCU to a much higher level than Jeff Capel whereas Shaka Smart moved it up nicely, but not close to the jump made by Grant. Capel averaged #107 in kenpom and #4 in conference play. Grant took that up +48 spots to #59 average in kenpom and #1 in conference play. Shaka kept the momentum going, but it slowed down increasing +21 spots to #38 average but decreasing - 2 spots in conference to an average of #3.
Just a question regarding this point. Couldn't we say the same thing as regards to Oliver Purnell compared to Archie Miller. That he made a much higher jump than AM? That has as much to do with circumstances of the program at the time as great coaching and recruiting doesn't it?
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  #213  
Old 03-30-2017, 07:52 PM
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This reminds me A LOT of the Sidney Lowe hire at NC State...gobbs of NBA experience as a player and coach...somewhat of a disaster at NC State though.

Lowe was a star player at NC State too I think...I think he was on their NCAA 1983 Champion team.

He took over for Sendek, who had gone to the tourney 5 years in a row, and Lowe goes 0 for 5.

Gottfried then comes in to replace Lowe and immediately goes to the NCAAT 4 years in a row.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidn...oaching_record



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NC_S...2.80.932014.29

Last edited by ud2; 03-30-2017 at 07:57 PM..
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Old 03-30-2017, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Totally agree with m21eagle45 and would like to see facts from UD2 and OSU Flyer. Here are some facts:

(1) Anthony Grant's average kenpom rating is almost the same as Archie Miller's whereas Brian Gregory's was materially lower. BG's average kenpom rating was 87 in 8 years at Dayton with a range of 26 to 131; Archie Miller's average kenpom rating in 6 years was 53 with a range of 39 to 59; Anthony Grant's average knepom rating at VCU/Bama was 58 with a range of 26 to 86.

(2) Anthony Grant took VCU to a much higher level than Jeff Capel whereas Shaka Smart moved it up nicely, but not close to the jump made by Grant. Capel averaged #107 in kenpom and #4 in conference play. Grant took that up +48 spots to #59 average in kenpom and #1 in conference play. Shaka kept the momentum going, but it slowed down increasing +21 spots to #38 average but decreasing - 2 spots in conference to an average of #3.

(3) Grant is a great recruiter and now his OKC experience will . Grant has had bad classes at both VCU and Alabama. Just one example, he had the #6 class in the nation in 2013. http://www.al.com/alabamabasketball/...ecruiting.html

(4) I do think Archie is a better Xs and Os guys as he has won more close games and the feedback from players, assistants, and neutral observers is that Archie is a masterful strategist and tactician.

(5) Archie's record in the NCAA is better than Grant's, but Anthony had 3 of 4 games versus top 15 teams where he was 1-2; whereas Archie was 0-3 versus top 15 teams. Draw matters and Archie has had better overall draws. Archie was 5-4 in NCAA Tourney games whereas Anthony Grant is 1-3 in NCAA games, but two big caveats:
(a) Anthony played #10 Duke, #11, Pitt, #12 UCLA, and #28 Creighton -- Archie played #19 Ohio State, #18 Syracuse, #34 Stanford, #3 FL, #47 Boise State, #27 Providence, #11 Ok. St., #27 Syracuse, and #8 Wichita State. ARCHIE HAS NEVER BEATEN A TOP 15 TEAM IN THE NCAA TOURNEY, HE WAS 0-3. Anthony Grant was 1-2 versus top 15 teams in the NCAA Tourney and lost the other 2 games in OT and by 1. Archie honestly got killed by FL and OK, but Wichita St was close. Archie was 2-0 versus teams 16-25, Grant was 0-0, Archie was 3-1 versus teams 26-50 whereas Grant was 0-1.
(b) I would chalk it up to a combination of luck and skill, but Archie beat Ohio State by 1, Syracuse by 2, and Boise State by 1. Grant lost to Pitt in OT, UCLA by 1, and Creighton by 1. I truly believe Archie a better X and O coach, but he was lucky in these games and Grant was unlucky. A couple different bounces of the ball and Grant would be considered a much better coach.

I agree with other posters, let's get the facts on the table, not wild speculation.
Thank you!

While this is not an indication that Grant will be successful, it is absolutely an indication that calling the hire disastrous is utter foolishness. There was absolutely no candidate including Grant that was a lock, this cannot objectively be viewed as a bad hire. It's been a highly emotional week and there is plenty of room for differences of opinions. But most of our opinions are just gut feelings based on very limited insight... often based on the very limited insight of other people on this board. But the histrionics of a couple knuckleheads with no basis in fact really sucks especially when it targets one of our own.

Two quick side notes:

I lived down the hall from AG my Soph year. He was a nice polite kid (unlike me who chose my screen name for a reason).

Having lived and worked in Alabama for 4 years, I can say with complete confidence... it shouldn't be held against anyone!
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by sheg View Post
Does this mean we get a home-and-home with the Thunder?
Sweet!
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Just a question regarding this point. Couldn't we say the same thing as regards to Oliver Purnell compared to Archie Miller. That he made a much higher jump than AM? That has as much to do with circumstances of the program at the time as great coaching and recruiting doesn't it?
Although your primary point is correct, I don't think the trajectory of VCU under Capel and UD under the guy before Purnell is the example to site in order to prove it.

Winning %

Capel .658
guy b4 Purnell .412
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
Point being, I was correcting your mess up.
Uhhhh i was quoting others and have no idea what that has to do with the concept/argument we are having...

Pointless bickering... I'm being petty but we both need to get over it... lets actually look at AG AND how to grade him.... isn't that the point of the thread?
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Listening to Anthony on WLW he says he wants use experiences he picked up in OKC in the college game
I listened to the entire interview while mowing the palatial lawn and it was worth it. Grant came across as excited, prepared and genuine. He must have used the word 'blessed' a dozen times. His words weren't coach speak, but actually came across as knowledgeable and honest. I can't imagine any recruit not being impressed with this man. I loved the hire when it was announced. I royally loved it after hearing the interview.

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  #219  
Old 03-30-2017, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Totally agree with m21eagle45 and would like to see facts from UD2 and OSU Flyer. Here are some facts:

........

I agree with other posters, let's get the facts on the table, not wild speculation.

I think you wasted your time gathering and presenting facts to those two.

Facts get in the way of their posting opinion (if that really is what it is).
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 View Post
I think you wasted your time gathering and presenting facts to those two.

Facts get in the way of their posting opinion (if that really is what it is).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis...oaching_record
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthon...oaching_record
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I listened to the entire interview while mowing the palatial lawn and it was worth it. Grant came across as excited, prepared and genuine. He must have used the word 'blessed' a dozen times. His words weren't coach speak, but actually came across as knowledgeable and honest. I can't imagine any recruit not being impressed with this man. I loved the hire when it was announced. I royally loved it after hearing the interview.

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It was a good interview you could tell he really wanted to be here
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I listened to the entire interview while mowing the palatial lawn and it was worth it. Grant came across as excited, prepared and genuine. He must have used the word 'blessed' a dozen times. His words weren't coach speak, but actually came across as knowledgeable and honest. I can't imagine any recruit not being impressed with this man. I loved the hire when it was announced. I royally loved it after hearing the interview.

Go Flyers!

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Any link to the interview?
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
T

(2) Anthony Grant took VCU to a much higher level than Jeff Capel whereas Shaka Smart moved it up nicely, but not close to the jump made by Grant. Capel averaged #107 in kenpom and #4 in conference play. Grant took that up +48 spots to #59 average in kenpom and #1 in conference play. Shaka kept the momentum going, but it slowed down increasing +21 spots to #38 average but decreasing - 2 spots in conference to an average of #3.

Archie honestly got killed by FL and OK, but Wichita St was close.
But who's to say that if AG stayed at VCU that he wouldn't have continued the upward trend as well, because after all the first few years of Shaka's were many of AG's guys.

We got killed by Florida and Oklahoma??? I must have watched different games than you that year because the Florida game was within striking distance until the last two minutes or so and if I recall we were ahead of Oklahoma by 9 with about ten minutes left to play. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
I posted a break down of Dennis Felton vs. Anthony Grant here
http://udpride.com/forums/showpost.p...&postcount=321

I look at bringing in the #6 recruiting class in the country and then getting fired speaks to something going wrong there.

As far as the Ken Pom. That's one data point. I look at his record and what happened at Alabama. The SEC was the weakest power 5 conference when has there. Mark Gottfried did better at Alabama than Anthony did his tenure by a wide margin. Alabama isn't an Auburn that's been a complete black hole. To explain away his time there as "it's a football school doesn't hold water"

In a weak SEC he had a losing record in conference play his last two years. Years 5 & 6 with his guys.

I've post various break downs of the coaches I like in various threads around here. I wrote a novel about John Brannen
OK John you can give it up. The HC vacancy is closed now.

By the way here is some of his resume:

2009–2013 Alabama (asst.)
2013–2015 Alabama (assoc. HC)
2015 Alabama (interim)

Do we see any tie in here Hmmmmmmmmm?

Gee if AG was so bad how come JB didn't help the situation improve. Oh! I know got to the HL which has been double digit in RPI conference where things just might be easier. Or, I call his luck factor recently as well lucky ...
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
This reminds me A LOT of the Sidney Lowe hire at NC State...gobbs of NBA experience as a player and coach...somewhat of a disaster at NC State though.

Lowe was a star player at NC State too I think...I think he was on their NCAA 1983 Champion team.

He took over for Sendek, who had gone to the tourney 5 years in a row, and Lowe goes 0 for 5.

Gottfried then comes in to replace Lowe and immediately goes to the NCAAT 4 years in a row.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidn...oaching_record



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NC_S...2.80.932014.29
But Sidney Lowe had never coached in college before he got the NC State job whereas AG already has ample experience, much of it that was successful, in the college game.
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  #226  
Old 03-30-2017, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 View Post
OK John you can give it up. The HC vacancy is closed now.

By the way here is some of his resume:

2009–2013 Alabama (asst.)
2013–2015 Alabama (assoc. HC)
2015 Alabama (interim)

Do we see any tie in here Hmmmmmmmmm?

Gee if AG was so bad how come JB didn't help the situation improve. Oh! I know got to the HL which has been double digit in RPI conference where things just might be easier. Or, I call his luck factor recently as well lucky ...
He took a team transitioning from D2 that had a RPI of around 300 & by year two with is guys had them to an RPI 87 (Around Richmond's level). He improved their RPI over 200 points in 2 years with his own guys at a school that came from over the Atlantic Sun.

The proof is in the pudding. That's a good coaching job connection to Grant or not
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by lhsgolf19 View Post
David Jablonski‏Verified account @DavidPJablonski 13m13 minutes ago

Sullivan said he and Grant have both reached out to recruits today.
This is the priority I was hoping for, and the one I will forever believe Arch stumbled on out of the gate.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:36 PM
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First, I think it's a great day to be a Flyer. In my opinion this is a FANtastic hire with emphasis on FAN. That's my opinion and I realize there is a small percentage that disagrees with it.

All that said, I'd like to make a suggestion. We've had today to put our 2-cents worth into a post. Only time will tell how this all plays out. My opinions are subjective as are yours. But what makes Flyer fans so unique and special is they have supported this program through the highs and lows. So my suggestion is starting on Friday, how about we table all the speculative pluses and minuses of our new head coach, and move to supporting this hire and program like fans have done for decades. Let's table the good hire-bad hire discussion and move forward to discussing the pros and cons of what he actually DOES as he gets to work to get this program to the next level. And you can disagree with his actions and moves. But the hire is done. Anthony Grant is now leading the Flyer Nation's men's basketball program. The only thing I'm going to focus on is what he DOES starting tomorrow and the day after.

Go Flyers!
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  #229  
Old 03-30-2017, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
He took a team transitioning from D2 that had a RPI of around 300 & by year two with is guys had them to an RPI 87 (Around Richmond's level). He improved their RPI over 200 points in 2 years with his own guys at a school that came from over the Atlantic Sun.

The proof is in the pudding. That's a good coaching job connection to Grant or not
Whoa Nelly! Facts are starting to show. So what about the others on this prestigious list you presented. Since all those listed would have been better than the hire we have.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Archie honestly got killed by FL and OK, but Wichita St was close.
I completely disagree with this. We were up 9 on OK in the second half! Darrell had 5 threes! We lost that game, OK did not win it, IMO. Also Florida was a pretty close game. Not sure how you can say we "got killed" by either of those teams.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
And I think Neil should maybe be fired, or reassigned elsewhere, if this does not work out.

We just had our best coach in 30 years, and we went with an external guy, with a very sketchy track record, to replace him.

I am just stunned.
So the only good hire would have been Ostrum, Kuwik or Griffin?

Because any head coach was coming from lower ranks if they had not been previously fired. The least sketchy would have been Crean and there is little indication he had any interest in the job.

I don't disagree with promoting assistants. But all the assistants would have question marks. None have been on lists for head jobs. Why not?

Personally I think you read way too much into Alabama. If it means that much please explain guys like McDermott, Alford.
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Old 03-30-2017, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
He took a team transitioning from D2 that had a RPI of around 300 & by year two with is guys had them to an RPI 87 (Around Richmond's level). He improved their RPI over 200 points in 2 years with his own guys at a school that came from over the Atlantic Sun.

The proof is in the pudding. That's a good coaching job connection to Grant or not
That's one year. Tell me what you thought of Jim O'Brien in June of 1990.

Nobody knows how any hire turns out. They all have risks. Schools are different, resources different, cultures different.

If Alabama has moderate expectations, has no issues winning, etc then explain Gottfriesa last 3 years. From 5 straight NCAA to nada.
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Old 03-30-2017, 09:14 PM
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Florida really wasn't that close. They got a decent lead early, Dayton had a run and I think took the lead but Florida closed the half on a run and had about a 10 point lead at half. Then Florida opened a big lead in second half - sixteen to twenty points. Dayton had a run to get to around 8 and had some chances to get closer but never hit the big shot. Ended about 12. It was close like Georgetown was close in 1984. The game really was in little doubt.

Now Oklahoma was close.
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  #234  
Old 03-30-2017, 09:19 PM
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Sheesh....you guys act like a bunch of 7 grade little girls arguing over a little boy! For God sake, AG is our coach now, if you're a UD fan, get behind the guy and stop the what if's. Stuff is getting hard to read.....
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Old 03-30-2017, 09:35 PM
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Link to WHIO's special the aired tonight on the Anthony Grant's hire:

https://www.facebook.com/whionews/vi...1328599898699/
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  #236  
Old 03-30-2017, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
UD2 and OSU Flyer

You guys keep going on and on about how this is such a bad hire but have not given any names for who is the candidate that is so great that make you hate this hire? I would really like to see names. Every coach that has been talked about has flaws. There was not 1 big time coach out there. Don't get me wrong AG was not my first choice, but I am still happy, I think he fits the culture well. Let's see these perfect candidates that have no flaws at all.
I'm OK with the hire even though I think Crean is twice the coach AG is. I'd have gone after Crean. Whether they approached Crean we won't know until AG moves on. If he does. I seriously hope we get the VCU coach and not the Alabama coach. All the chatter about not being able to win after Saban was hired is laughable. He had a top-5 class. You can't have both sides of the argument. I'm not as convinced as UD2 or OSUFLYER but I feel there was at least one superior candidate.
Edit: I mean concerning established coaches. I originally wanted two of the three top assistants, though an unconventional hire. I've changed my mind.

Last edited by FLYER5; 03-30-2017 at 09:47 PM..
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Old 03-30-2017, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 31770 View Post
And AM NEVER recruited a big man that worked out...
Let's at least honor the dead.
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Old 03-30-2017, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by frisco flyer View Post
Let's at least honor the dead.
Yeah, that was a very class-less quote. At the very least insensitive..
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Old 03-30-2017, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Listening to Anthony on WLW he says he wants use experiences he picked up in OKC in the college game
Link to the WLW interview:

http://700wlw.iheart.com/onair/lance...yers-15697206/
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  #240  
Old 03-30-2017, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by shapanud View Post
Link to WHIO's special the aired tonight on the Anthony Grant's hire:

https://www.facebook.com/whionews/vi...1328599898699/
I just got done watching this. It was good to see some of the old footage from my days back at the U. Good times!

I actually enjoyed the segments when they were off the TV air and commented on FB posts. They were more honest and didn't sugar coat their comments nearly as much.

Another interesting point I took away from watching the show was that a year of coaching in the NBA is equivalent to about five years in college. It's simple math but I had never thought about it this way.

I'm really glad AG is back home. He is one awesome human being and will be embraced and supported by the fans and community. Depending on what happens with the recruits, it might take him a while to get going, but I think there's a strong likelihood he will be successful at UD.
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Old 03-30-2017, 10:45 PM
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Feel like this is a high floor, medium ceiling hire. Probably one of the best we could do. Feel like Crean would've been similar, but I don't think he was ever in the running. Do I think Grant is going to get us to the Final 4? No I don't. Am I going to support the crap out of him? Yes I am.

Feel like many of the other names are pretty much low floor, higher ceiling potentials​. But the problem is you run the same risk as Archie... Probably worse. How many of you thought Archie would stay THREE MORE YEARS after the Elite 8 run? If you did, you're naive. But you are also running the risk of a spectacular JOB style flame out. And that could set the program back literally decades.

I am good running the risk of a guy who has a great recruiting track record, has ties to the university, and previous NCAA success vs some of the fliers we were thinking about taking. It's probably the safe move, but I don't know that there was a home run out there waiting to be hit.

Feel like the other candidates were all a much lower floor possibility than AG.

The thing I like most about this is, I am not stressed about keeping the recruits. We may lose a couple... But I think we will replace them with equally good or better players. Say what you want about Archie, but his ability was in player development not acquisition. In order to get to an elite level, you have to start getting better players. I think AG can do that, and that's a start.

As much as VCU thinks they're God's gift to basketball, at least they recognize that AG got most of the players that got them to that final 4.

Looking forward to AG and a successful tenure, even if we do struggle a bit next year. It was always going to be that way with losing the class we just lost.

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  #242  
Old 03-30-2017, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
But who's to say that if AG stayed at VCU that he wouldn't have continued the upward trend as well, because after all the first few years of Shaka's were many of AG's guys.

We got killed by Florida and Oklahoma??? I must have watched different games than you that year because the Florida game was within striking distance until the last two minutes or so and if I recall we were ahead of Oklahoma by 9 with about ten minutes left to play. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I retract the Oklahoma point, but quadruple down on FL. Fair point about Oklahoma and had 25-30% chance to win with 5 minutes to go. Versus FL, Dayton had a 2-3% chance to win at halftime and never exceeded a 5% chance the 2nd half. In fact, the last 10 minutes of the game, Dayton bumped around among 1-2-3% chance to win.

Added the win probability charts below.
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  #243  
Old 03-30-2017, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Buster Goode View Post
Now the first thing he should do is get Donovan and Russell Westbrook to call these new guys and get them excited to play for him. We desparately need to retain as many recruits as possible.
I'm on it.
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Old 03-30-2017, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Just a question regarding this point. Couldn't we say the same thing as regards to Oliver Purnell compared to Archie Miller. That he made a much higher jump than AM? That has as much to do with circumstances of the program at the time as great coaching and recruiting doesn't it?
Legitimate point Smitty. Kenpom stats only go back to 2002 so could not do the compare with OP. But I think AG is equal to or better when comparing program improvement between Grant at VCU and Archie at UD.

Archie Miller was +34 going from an average kenpom ranking of #87 under Brian Gregory to #53 during Archie's reign at UD.

Anthony Grant was +48 going from an average kenpom ranking of #107 under Jeff Capel to #59 during AG's reign at VCU.

You could cut the data so many ways, but I think this is a very apples to apples compare.
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Old 03-30-2017, 11:12 PM
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I cant get too excited about this one. Does anyone have any info / data on how AG teams stacked up on O & D? Did they improve? Archie & staff seemed to really develop the talent they recruited. Really like to know if AG has demonstrated that ability in his previous stints.
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Old 03-30-2017, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
First, I think it's a great day to be a Flyer. In my opinion this is a FANtastic hire with emphasis on FAN. That's my opinion and I realize there is a small percentage that disagrees with it.

All that said, I'd like to make a suggestion. We've had today to put our 2-cents worth into a post. Only time will tell how this all plays out. My opinions are subjective as are yours. But what makes Flyer fans so unique and special is they have supported this program through the highs and lows. So my suggestion is starting on Friday, how about we table all the speculative pluses and minuses of our new head coach, and move to supporting this hire and program like fans have done for decades. Let's table the good hire-bad hire discussion and move forward to discussing the pros and cons of what he actually DOES as he gets to work to get this program to the next level. And you can disagree with his actions and moves. But the hire is done. Anthony Grant is now leading the Flyer Nation's men's basketball program. The only thing I'm going to focus on is what he DOES starting tomorrow and the day after.

Go Flyers!
I nominate this for post of the year! And I hope a couple of posters have read it very carefully.
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  #247  
Old 03-30-2017, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
I think Flying Arrow's point is that when you make a statement like that, for it to be relevant would mean that it's Archie's fault that the big men didn't work out. You can argue that Scott and Robinson were never high character guys and AM should've never brought them to Dayton. You can argue that Gavrilovik was not a skilled big man. But, and I know you know this, you can't argue that there was anything AM could've done to have Big Steve be here for 4 seasons and on this earth beyond.

In actuality, AM had 3 seasons without a legitimate big player and all of them were due to unforeseen circumstances. One being the expulsion of Kavs, another the expusions of Scott and Robinson. And the other being the tragic death of Big Steve.

You're correct that they didn't work out, but in no way do I think that means for a second that AM will always have trouble getting needed big men on his teams.
And in fact, for one season, Big Steve did work out. We went to the NCAA tournament and he holds the UD record for blocked shots in a season.
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  #248  
Old 03-30-2017, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
I posted a break down of Dennis Felton vs. Anthony Grant here
http://udpride.com/forums/showpost.p...&postcount=321

I look at bringing in the #6 recruiting class in the country and then getting fired speaks to something going wrong there.

As far as the Ken Pom. That's one data point. I look at his record and what happened at Alabama. The SEC was the weakest power 5 conference when has there. Mark Gottfried did better at Alabama than Anthony did his tenure by a wide margin. Alabama isn't an Auburn that's been a complete black hole. To explain away his time there as "it's a football school doesn't hold water"

In a weak SEC he had a losing record in conference play his last two years. Years 5 & 6 with his guys.

I've post various break downs of the coaches I like in various threads around here. I wrote a novel about John Brannen
Kenpom, Sagarin, KPI, etc. are all good advanced metric tools that normalize for competition, location of games, etc. Very good predictive value of how good a team is and whether that team will win going forward.

Felton and Grant are not coaching in the same universe.

From 2002 to 2009 (kenpom only starts in 2002), Felton had an average kenpom ranking of #104 with a range of #44 to #205 finishing his 6th and final year at Georgia with a kenpom ranking of #198! Felton at Georgia had kenpom rankings of 76, 205, 107, 55, 91, and 198.

Grant's average rating at VCU/Bama was #58 with a range of #26 to #86 finishing his 6th and final year at Alabama with a kenpom ranking of #55. Grant at Alabama had kenpom rankings of 63, 51, 26, 63, 86, and 55.

OSU Flyer, with all due respect, Grant is a materially better coach than Felton. I would argue Felton statistically is about as close to Anthony Grant as Anthony Grant is to Roy Williams.

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  #249  
Old 03-31-2017, 12:31 AM
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Ken Pom is one data point

A good comparison for Anthony is Dennis Felton who was just hired at Cleveland St. Felton is 53 and Grant is 50 and they both had a similar career trajectory.

Anthony got his start at VCU and had three good seasons there. Felton took over a similar program at Western Kentucky and rebuilt it vs inheriting an NBA player in Eric Maynor and a good situation like Grant. Felton took Western the NCAA's three years in a row and accepted the Georgia after the 02-03 season.

Both Anthony Grant and Felton spent six seasons in the SEC and each had a NCAA tourney appearance. Felton had 2 NIT trips and Grant 2 & was let go before his 3rd.

Felton took over Georgia got wiped out by Jim Harrick so his computers are gonna be low at the beginning of his career there. Felton was also in the far more competitive SEC East

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Old 03-31-2017, 12:48 AM
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It's just agree to disagree situation. I hope I'm completely wrong about Anthony and I eat crow
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  #251  
Old 03-31-2017, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Ken Pom is one data point

A good comparison for Anthony is Dennis Felton who was just hired at Cleveland St. Felton is 53 and Grant is 50 and they both had a similar career trajectory.

Anthony got his start at VCU and had three good seasons there. Felton took over a similar program at Western Kentucky and rebuilt it vs inheriting an NBA player in Eric Maynor and a good situation like Grant. Felton took Western the NCAA's three years in a row and accepted the Georgia after the 02-03 season.

Both Anthony Grant and Felton spent six seasons in the SEC and each had a NCAA tourney appearance. Felton had 2 NIT trips and Grant 2 & was let go before his 3rd.

Felton took over Georgia got wiped out by Jim Harrick so his computers are gonna be low at the beginning of his career there. Felton was also in the far more competitive SEC East
But that is the point of kenpom, it normalizes for competition, being in the SEC East for example. Normalizes for out-of-conference games. Felton's 5th and 6th years he ranked 91 and 198 which is terrible. Grant has never had a year below 86 and Felton had 4 of his 6 years below 86.

Basically all college coaches and ADs use kenpom as the college bible now of how good teams really are. It is hard to dismiss as one data point.

Grant had 2 #1 seeds in the NIT (remember Archie had 2 #11s seeds), an extra win each year and he is probably has 2 more NCAA appearances at Alabama (and an extra loss each year and Archie probably has 2 less NCAA appearances).

And Grant recruited the entire roster except for some bit players that Shaka took to the Final 4 so I don't know how you can dismiss his development of Maynor.

I do not know how Grant will turn out as a coach at UD. But he is materially better than Dennis Felton. He is not a disaster hire. And in fact the advanced analytics point to a coach just about as successful as Archie Miller, but AG has been a little unlucky and AM has been a little lucky.
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Old 03-31-2017, 12:59 AM
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I guess I go by the old Bill Parcels quote "you are what your record says you are"
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:14 AM
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Rule you said Archie & Grant have the same Kenpom average do you interpret that as them relatively equal coaches?

I look at AG's last two years at Alabama and seeing a losing record in SEC each year & near .500 career record in SEC play.

I want to get behind this hire because this feels right with him coming back to Dayton. I don't think it's irrational to look at that & have some pause. Why should that not concern me?
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
So the only good hire would have been Ostrum, Kuwik or Griffin?

Because any head coach was coming from lower ranks if they had not been previously fired. The least sketchy would have been Crean and there is little indication he had any interest in the job.

I don't disagree with promoting assistants. But all the assistants would have question marks. None have been on lists for head jobs. Why not?

Personally I think you read way too much into Alabama. If it means that much please explain guys like McDermott, Alford.
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I apologize for all the complaining, but I am really upset by this hire.

Archie was not mentioned for any jobs either before he took over.

From what I have seen of him at Alabama, I think this was a poor hiring decision, I feel like he was only hired because he is an alumnus, his resume is not that strong IMO.

I feel like we have taken a definite step backwards.

We worked so hard to get to this point, and I feel like it has all been pi**ed away.

At least some of the other candidates that had no hc experience had an unknown ceiling.

I would have given the job to one of Archie's assistants. I also feel that a case could be made for John Brannen.

I would have also been ok with Whitford, Paulus, or Groce, since they are part of the Sendek tree.


Hopefully his time at VCU is more indicative of what we will get.

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Old 03-31-2017, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I apologize for all the complaining, but I am really upset by this hire.

Archie was not mentioned for any jobs either before he took over.

From what I have seen of him at Alabama, I think this was a poor hiring decision, I feel like he was only hired because he is an alumnus, his resume is not that strong IMO.

I feel like we have taken a definite step backwards.

We worked so hard to get to this point, and I feel like it has all been pi**ed away.

At least some of the other candidates that had no hc experience had an unknown ceiling.

I would have given the job to one of Archie's assistants. I also feel that a case could be made for John Brannen.

I would have also been ok with Whitford, Paulus, or Groce, since they are part of the Sendek tree.


Hopefully his time at VCU is more indicative of what we will get.

Good lord - what the frack do you want - them to hire someone who retroactively brings us a national championship last year. You clearly have completely lost touch with reality. If you can't see the value long term and short term - your head is firmly stuck somewhere.

Lets put up the pro's.

1. NCAA championship ring as assistant and lead recruiter for a team that then went on to do what is almost considered unthinkable in Mens hoops - and won back to back championships

2. Experience coaching at the NBA level so he can talk about the NBA to recruits as he shines the light off his NCAA championship ring in their eyes.

3. A coach who can tell the recruits what it is like to run out the tunnel at UD arena and feel the roar of the crowd in your chest.

4. A Coach that does not look at UD as a stepping stone - but rather a destination.

5. A Former head coach in a Power 5 conference.

6. A Coach that has a proven track record of being a good decent human being - someone that cares about his players and coaches and people in general. Someone that does the right thing. Think opposite of Huggie bear.

7. Someone that is an alumni and loves his University.


If this is not something you can get excited about - good lord - throw your computer away - and buy a new one next year when conference season starts.

I am just shocked that VCU's board is more excited and happy for us then some "UD fans" are. This is a GREAT HIRE. All around no matter how you look at it - this is the Hire that takes us to the next level of Gonzaga and Wichita state where our coach sticks around and we are no longer anyone's stepping stone.

Really folks if you don't like this hire - burn your UD gear and buy some X clothing.

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  #256  
Old 03-31-2017, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by podcast411 View Post
Good lord - what the frack do you want - them to hire someone who retroactively brings us a national championship last year. You clearly have completely lost touch with reality. If you can't see the value long term and short term - your head is firmly stuck somewhere.

Lets put up the pro's.

1. NCAA championship ring as assistant and lead recruiter for a team that then went on to do what is almost considered unthinkable in Mens hoops - and won back to back championships

2. Experience coaching at the NBA level so he can talk about the NBA to recruits as he shines the light off his NCAA championship ring in their eyes.

3. A coach who can tell the recruits what it is like to run out the tunnel at UD arena and feel the roar of the crowd in your chest.

4. An Coach that does not look at UD as a stepping stone - but rather a destination.

5. A Former head coach in a Power 5 conference.

6. A Coach that has a proven track record of being a good decent human being - someone that cares about his players and coaches and people in general. Someone that does the right thing. Think opposite of Huggie bear.

7. Someone that is an alumni and loves his University.


If this is not something you can get excited about - good lord - throw your computer away - and buy a new one next year when conference season starts.

I am just shocked that VCU's board is more excited and happy for us then some "UD fans" are. This is a GREAT HIRE. All around no matter how you look at it - this is the Hire that takes us to the next level of Gonzaga and Wichita state where our coach sticks around and we are no longer anyone's stepping stone.

Really folks if you don't like this hire - burn your UD gear and buy some X clothing.
He certainly wasn't my first choice but I'm behind him 100 percent now and am starting to get excited. Just looking at the VCU board makes me think we might start getting the type of high level recruits we've never seen the likes of. I didn't realize that most of the VCU squad that went to the final four were his recruits.

He has yet to be the main man when all his recruits and also his teams as an assistant reached their pinnicles, but I'm starting to think those were saved for when he became the head coach of his Alma Mater.
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Old 03-31-2017, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
But that is the point of kenpom, it normalizes for competition, being in the SEC East for example. Normalizes for out-of-conference games. Felton's 5th and 6th years he ranked 91 and 198 which is terrible. Grant has never had a year below 86 and Felton had 4 of his 6 years below 86.

Basically all college coaches and ADs use kenpom as the college bible now of how good teams really are. It is hard to dismiss as one data point.

Grant had 2 #1 seeds in the NIT (remember Archie had 2 #11s seeds), an extra win each year and he is probably has 2 more NCAA appearances at Alabama (and an extra loss each year and Archie probably has 2 less NCAA appearances).

And Grant recruited the entire roster except for some bit players that Shaka took to the Final 4 so I don't know how you can dismiss his development of Maynor.

I do not know how Grant will turn out as a coach at UD. But he is materially better than Dennis Felton. He is not a disaster hire. And in fact the advanced analytics point to a coach just about as successful as Archie Miller, but AG has been a little unlucky and AM has been a little lucky.
Dude!?! Thanks for giving me some comic gold to bump for my pleasure down the road. In essence your mesage says Archie was proven lucky by advanced analytics..Insufferable apologist much?
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Old 03-31-2017, 05:54 AM
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I appreciate the presentation of statistics brought to light by a less than overzealous source, like Figgie123. Sorry but bending the truth to fit your argument discredits your statement.

I do appreciate your leg work, Rue. You bring some good information to the board on a regular basis. I'm not going after you but the statements I see here that all the sudden point to flaws in the previous coach. And it ticks me off. If we'd have hired a proven winner the sleight on Archie would be less offensive. I'll always follow Archie for what he did here. I understand the bias from some but I don't have ill will. No one has a good reason to show ill will for AM imho.

If you're going to say Archie was lucky in those close games then I can counter that with the coaching went south in crunch-time at Alabama. Because bad coaches lose in crunch-time.

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Old 03-31-2017, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by frisco flyer View Post
Another interesting point I took away from watching the show was that a year of coaching in the NBA is equivalent to about five years in college. It's simple math but I had never thought about it this way.
They actually said two years coaching in the NBA is equivalent to five years of college coaching. 164 games over two years is similar to 30+ games per year for five years in college.
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Old 03-31-2017, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
I retract the Oklahoma point, but quadruple down on FL. Fair point about Oklahoma and had 25-30% chance to win with 5 minutes to go. Versus FL, Dayton had a 2-3% chance to win at halftime and never exceeded a 5% chance the 2nd half. In fact, the last 10 minutes of the game, Dayton bumped around among 1-2-3% chance to win.

Added the win probability charts below.
Well I consider being down eight with about 2 minutes left still being in striking distance and not getting killed. But we can agree to disagree. Maybe we should just let computers determine winners of games instead of playing them on the floor. There would be a lot less injuries for players to have to deal with.
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Old 03-31-2017, 07:12 AM
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Talking

Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I listened to the entire interview while mowing the palatial lawn and it was worth it. Grant came across as excited, prepared and genuine. He must have used the word 'blessed' a dozen times. His words weren't coach speak, but actually came across as knowledgeable and honest. I can't imagine any recruit not being impressed with this man. I loved the hire when it was announced. I royally loved it after hearing the interview.

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Dang, I'm impressed you mow your own lawn!
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Old 03-31-2017, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by podcast411 View Post
Good lord - what the frack do you want - them to hire someone who retroactively brings us a national championship last year. You clearly have completely lost touch with reality. If you can't see the value long term and short term - your head is firmly stuck somewhere.

Lets put up the pro's.

1. NCAA championship ring as assistant and lead recruiter for a team that then went on to do what is almost considered unthinkable in Mens hoops - and won back to back championships

2. Experience coaching at the NBA level so he can talk about the NBA to recruits as he shines the light off his NCAA championship ring in their eyes.

3. A coach who can tell the recruits what it is like to run out the tunnel at UD arena and feel the roar of the crowd in your chest.

4. A Coach that does not look at UD as a stepping stone - but rather a destination.

5. A Former head coach in a Power 5 conference.

6. A Coach that has a proven track record of being a good decent human being - someone that cares about his players and coaches and people in general. Someone that does the right thing. Think opposite of Huggie bear.

7. Someone that is an alumni and loves his University.


If this is not something you can get excited about - good lord - throw your computer away - and buy a new one next year when conference season starts.

I am just shocked that VCU's board is more excited and happy for us then some "UD fans" are. This is a GREAT HIRE. All around no matter how you look at it - this is the Hire that takes us to the next level of Gonzaga and Wichita state where our coach sticks around and we are no longer anyone's stepping stone.

Really folks if you don't like this hire - burn your UD gear and buy some X clothing.
2nd best post of the year.
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Old 03-31-2017, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
Dang, I'm impressed you mow your own lawn!
Programmable yard-bot does the landscaping on the royal grounds. He was sipping cocktails from the poolside bar while 'mowing'
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Old 03-31-2017, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
Dang, I'm impressed you mow your own lawn!
I don't trust anyone else to do it perfectly....but I'm thinking about hiring her.

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Old 03-31-2017, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I would have also been ok with Whitford, Paulus, or Groce, since they are part of the Sendek tree.
OK, I couldn't stay silent after I read this one. Sorry, I am just trying to follow the logic.

Groce... really? And you would be OK with him, because....? You do know he was 34-30 in the MAC conference, right? Yes, the MAC conference!

He was 37-53 in the Big 10 at Illinois. Only one NCAA appearance (his 1st year with someone else's players). Never back to the NCAA tourney in the following 4 seasons. He was fired after that.

Sendek tree? What about the Donoher/Donovan tree?

I didn't have time to research the other names.

Oh well, I really do hope you come around. I know results are all that matter. Because he is an alum and our coach, I will support AG even more than the previous outsiders. I hope and believe he will do a great job on so many fronts. Time will tell, of course.

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  #266  
Old 03-31-2017, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I don't trust anyone else to do it perfectly....but I'm thinking about hiring her.

Good luck, she is making 20 mil a year doing Big Bang Theory. You might have to double your royal taxes!
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Old 03-31-2017, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I don't trust anyone else to do it perfectly....but I'm thinking about hiring her.

I thought Ivanka took a Govt job?
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Old 03-31-2017, 07:55 AM
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I agree with Beckystxa that additional complaining and dissecting of Anthony serves no purpose.

I loved the comment about a year of coaching in the nba was equivalent to five years of college coaching, I also had never thought of it that way.

anthony has spent two years coaching one of the best players in the game and he has also been coaching against some of the best coaches in the game. He has learned a lot from this experience and it can be applied to his coaching at UD. I'm sure he is a better coach now than he was at vcu or ALabama. I'm sure he has also learned a lot about player development in those two years.

so none of us know what he is capable of right now, the ceiling might be higher than any of us know. Let's hope that is the case
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Old 03-31-2017, 08:26 AM
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Was away for a few days and glad to see that AG hired. I definitely did not want to go the "hot assistant" (BG, AM) route again and watch another "hot assistant" dump us.

Not ways found of hiring the past star (Chris Mullins at St. Johns) but I am satisfied with AG and think that the alma mater factor will work well here. We don't eat our young. I wanted someone with head coaching experience even if it was on a lower level (Purnell) and I am happy. Hope he can keep the incoming recruits.
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Old 03-31-2017, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post

I would have also been ok with Whitford, Paulus, or Groce, since they are part of the Sendek tree.


Hopefully his time at VCU is more indicative of what we will get.
If you would have been OK w/ Groce, why in the good Lord's name are you not OK with Grant? Grant has accomplished significantly more than Groce. If you read the OSU boards, may were hoping that Matta dumps Paulus this offseason, I'm not sure why you would be OK with him either.

I'll give you Whitford, he could be a good one down the road, but probably a harder sell to the big donors at this point in time, and if you don't think that matters, I can't help you.
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Old 03-31-2017, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I apologize for all the complaining, but I am really upset by this hire.

Archie was not mentioned for any jobs either before he took over.

From what I have seen of him at Alabama, I think this was a poor hiring decision, I feel like he was only hired because he is an alumnus, his resume is not that strong IMO.

I feel like we have taken a definite step backwards.

We worked so hard to get to this point, and I feel like it has all been pi**ed away.

At least some of the other candidates that had no hc experience had an unknown ceiling.

I would have given the job to one of Archie's assistants. I also feel that a case could be made for John Brannen.

I would have also been ok with Whitford, Paulus, or Groce, since they are part of the Sendek tree.


Hopefully his time at VCU is more indicative of what we will get.
Archie was mentioned for lower level jobs at both OSU and UA. It was also well known he wasn't taking SoCon or OVC jobs.

I don't understand how anyone can prefer Groce. He never had the success in the MAC that AG had in the CAA and his time at Illinois was much worse. I know you haven't but those talking Felton look at coaching record, which is also inconsistent and spotty, and ignore the cloud of ethics that have followed Felton IIRC.

As perplexing is the disregard for the success people like Alford, McDermott et al have had after getting canned at a P5 job.

And of course many mention Brannen, who I think will be a successful coach. But they are projecting off of one year. What would they have projected for JOB.

An internal hire was an option. But Ostrom has been an assistant for about 20 years. Maybe he is just happy with that. I don't think Griffin is ready but Kuwik might be.

Six years ago people would have killed for AG. I don't think his time at Bama sheds a lot of light just like Iowa and Iowa State did not for Alford and McDermott.
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Old 03-31-2017, 08:56 AM
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Frightening

Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I listened to the entire interview while mowing the palatial lawn and it was worth it. Grant came across as excited, prepared and genuine. He must have used the word 'blessed' a dozen times. His words weren't coach speak, but actually came across as knowledgeable and honest. I can't imagine any recruit not being impressed with this man. I loved the hire when it was announced. I royally loved it after hearing the interview.

Go Flyers!

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This is scary . . . I agree completely with Rollo's comments. . . . .
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  #273  
Old 03-31-2017, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I apologize for all the complaining, but I am really upset by this hire.

Archie was not mentioned for any jobs either before he took over.

From what I have seen of him at Alabama, I think this was a poor hiring decision, I feel like he was only hired because he is an alumnus, his resume is not that strong IMO.

I feel like we have taken a definite step backwards.

We worked so hard to get to this point, and I feel like it has all been pi**ed away.

At least some of the other candidates that had no hc experience had an unknown ceiling.

I would have given the job to one of Archie's assistants. I also feel that a case could be made for John Brannen.

I would have also been ok with Whitford, Paulus, or Groce, since they are part of the Sendek tree.


Hopefully his time at VCU is more indicative of what we will get.
Noone else has said this, but I wanted to thank you for writing down what your thoughts are for your reasons against this hire. It's okay to go against what everyone else says, and this shows us why your opinion is as it is. Others will dissect it and argue with you, but I thank you for putting it down on (virtual) paper.
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  #274  
Old 03-31-2017, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Ken Pom is one data point

A good comparison for Anthony is Dennis Felton who was just hired at Cleveland St. Felton is 53 and Grant is 50 and they both had a similar career trajectory.

Anthony got his start at VCU and had three good seasons there. Felton took over a similar program at Western Kentucky and rebuilt it vs inheriting an NBA player in Eric Maynor and a good situation like Grant. Felton took Western the NCAA's three years in a row and accepted the Georgia after the 02-03 season.

Both Anthony Grant and Felton spent six seasons in the SEC and each had a NCAA tourney appearance. Felton had 2 NIT trips and Grant 2 & was let go before his 3rd.

Felton took over Georgia got wiped out by Jim Harrick so his computers are gonna be low at the beginning of his career there. Felton was also in the far more competitive SEC East
Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
It's just agree to disagree situation. I hope I'm completely wrong about Anthony and I eat crow
Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
I guess I go by the old Bill Parcels quote "you are what your record says you are"
Also for you, too, OSU Flyer, thanks for putting down the reasons for your negative opinion of the hire.
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  #275  
Old 03-31-2017, 09:26 AM
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I don't have an issue with opposing arguments, but finding another coach with a similar track record and claiming that this is the reason why Anthony Grant could fail is silly. He could fail because he isn't a great in-game coach or doesn't have great strategies for player development. I don't know if either are true, but those would be actual reasons. But not because Felton had a similar career.

It's just a classic false equivalence. It'd been like someone saying "Bill Belichick wasn't great with the Browns, but he was awesome at New England. Anthony Grant wasn't great at Alabama, but he will be awesome at Dayton. We're getting him at the perfect time"

Regardless, there were going to be people that were going to complain about anyone we hired. Fact is, there was a no chance that we were going to hire someone who is a better coach than Archie is right now, and there's a chance that recruits would leave even if we promoted an assistant. Grant feels like a relatively safe move, which makes sense for the program right now.
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Old 03-31-2017, 09:26 AM
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good point Figgie.
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by UDBrian View Post
I loved the comment about a year of coaching in the nba was equivalent to five years of college coaching, I also had never thought of it that way.
Can we get this right, they said TWO years of coaching in the NBA is like five college seasons.

I'll show you the math:
1 NBA season = 82 games
82 x 2 = 164 games for two NBA seasons

1 college season = 30(+) games
30(+) x 5 = 150(+) games for five college seasons

2 NBA seasons of 164 games approximately = 5 college seasons of 150(+) games.
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
Good luck, she is making 20 mil a year doing Big Bang Theory. You might have to double your royal taxes!
$20M won't keep you warm at night or make your heart skip a couple beats. I will.
Especially after she trims the....ohhhh, let's not go there.
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by maxthedog View Post
Any link to the interview?
Posted via Mobile Device
http://espn1530.iheart.com/onair/lan...yers-15697206/
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Old 03-31-2017, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
Dude!?! Thanks for giving me some comic gold to bump for my pleasure down the road. In essence your mesage says Archie was proven lucky by advanced analytics..Insufferable apologist much?
Responding to the posts that Anthony Grant is a disaster coach which he is not, he is closer to Archie Miller than Brian Gregory.

I think Archie is clearly an overall better coach, but not as big of a gap as I would have thought before looking at the statistics.

Two glaring weaknesses from Anthony Grant. (1) Success in A games (top 50 games adjusted for location) has been much weaker than Archie. Part attributable to playing more top 20 teams versus Archie played more 30-50 teams. Part Archie is a better coach. (2) Anthony Grant has a terrible "luck" factor in kenpom and Archie was neutral; but AG was unlucky in NCAA games and Archie was lucky. Again, part attributable to true luck (Archie winning 3 NCAA games decided by 4 points and AG losing 3 games in OT or by 1 point) and part probably attributable to AG being a poor end of game coach, too much of a 9 year pattern to say all unlucky.

Again arguments refuting that AG was a terrible hire.

I have no idea how AG will turn out at Dayton, but statistics would indicate closer to AM than BG. But also would indicate not as good of a coach as AM.

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Old 03-31-2017, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
$20M won't keep you warm at night or make your heart skip a couple beats. I will.
Especially after she trims the....ohhhh, let's not go there.
And the real "Big Bang" Theory won't be considered a theory anymore, huh?
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Old 03-31-2017, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
Well I consider being down eight with about 2 minutes left still being in striking distance and not getting killed. But we can agree to disagree. Maybe we should just let computers determine winners of games instead of playing them on the floor. There would be a lot less injuries for players to have to deal with.
Having less than a 1% chance to win with 2 minutes to go (after being less than a 5% chance to win the entire second half) is the definition of getting killed.

They play the games as 1/100 times Dayton comes back and wins and the Flyer Faithful would have gone crazy and possibly burnt Memphis to the ground.

But as you say, we can agree to disagree.

I agree with your good observation about 2 years in the NBA being 5 years worth of experience in college.

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Old 03-31-2017, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
And the real "Big Bang" Theory won't be considered a theory anymore, huh?
Check Netflix for the 'Royal Bang Theory' in the Fall...

or should I say Netflixxx?
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
Next year we're probably not going to the tournament even if Archie Miller sticks around. It's a rebuilding year after 4 straight NCAA tourney appearances. But it's 100% reasonable to expect NCAA appearances within the next 4 years. In fact, the expectation should be to be back in two seasons.
I disagree...there is no reason that 2017-2018 has to be a non-NCAAT year...I feel like people are already making excuses for AG to miss the NCAAT next year.

I have already seen a couple of posts writing off next year.

If we had Archie or one of his assistants as hc, then I would feel confident that we would make the 2017-2018 NCAAT.

With Grant, I am much less confident.

And I agree that making 2018-2019 NCAAT, in AG's 2nd year, is a very reasonable expectation.

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Old 03-31-2017, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I disagree...there is no reason that 2017-2018 has to be a non-NCAAT year...I feel like people are already making excuses for AG to miss the NCAAT next year.

I have already seen a couple posts writing off next year.

If we had Archie or one of his assistants as hc, then I would feel confident that we would make the 2017-2018 NCAA.

With Grant, I am much less confident.

And I agree that making 2018-2019 NCAAT is a very reasonable expectation.
I'm not 100% writing off 2017-18, but trying to be reasonable in assessing our chances. I think that in order to make an NCAA tourney next year, it will require some huge contributions from guys not presently on the roster. Those could come from the incoming class who were Archie recruits, other AG recruits, or grad transfer(s).

If Anthony Grant can come in cold, and add enough firepower to make NCAA tourney next year, that would be as impressive as anything Archie Miller did at Dayton in my opinion.
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:39 PM
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AG in the NCAAT in year one would be impressive, but it's a bit of an exaggeration to say it's better than anything Archie did. Archie got to an Elite 8 and 4 NCAA tournaments in a row. Getting to one tournament isn't going to be better than that, even if it does require exceeding expectations.
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I apologize for all the complaining, but I am really upset by this hire.

Archie was not mentioned for any jobs either before he took over.

From what I have seen of him at Alabama, I think this was a poor hiring decision, I feel like he was only hired because he is an alumnus, his resume is not that strong IMO.

I feel like we have taken a definite step backwards.

We worked so hard to get to this point, and I feel like it has all been pi**ed away.

At least some of the other candidates that had no hc experience had an unknown ceiling.

I would have given the job to one of Archie's assistants. I also feel that a case could be made for John Brannen.

I would have also been ok with Whitford, Paulus, or Groce, since they are part of the Sendek tree.


Hopefully his time at VCU is more indicative of what we will get.
....and again.
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I disagree...there is no reason that 2017-2018 has to be a non-NCAAT year...I feel like people are already making excuses for AG to miss the NCAAT next year.

I have already seen a couple of posts writing off next year.

If we had Archie or one of his assistants as hc, then I would feel confident that we would make the 2017-2018 NCAAT.

With Grant, I am much less confident.

And I agree that making 2018-2019 NCAAT, in AG's 2nd year, is a very reasonable expectation.
I don't care if its Archie coaching, John Wooden or Anthony Grant, its only reasonable to assume there are going to be "growing" pains next season. At the moment, at its best, UD has an inconsistent Darryl Davis and a wildly erratic PG, and a bunch of unproven freshman who have never seen a single minute in a UD uniform. On the wing, UD has nothing but unproven talent, and in the post, we hope to a full return of form Robinson to complement a hopefully stronger Williams and more unproven or unreliable depth.

Can they make the tournament? Sure, there is a lot of potential talent there, but the key is that most of it is potential, not realized. And for the record, making the tournament would not be as impressive as making the 2nd round the year archie was down to 6 scholarship players. It will likely be a long time before I see someone at UD top that accomplishment as a coach.
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:50 PM
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I wouldn't write off next year, especially if we keep most of our recruits. yes, freshmen, I get it. But these guys appear to be more ready to contribute than some freshmen we've had in the past. The questions are:

1. New system...how much buy in will the existing guys put into it
2. Assistants...are they X/O guys who can really help
3. How much time will everyone take to get up to speed
4. How many of the recruits/current players stay with the team. What quality of available transfers who are immediately eligible would come to UD
5. Even if 2017 is a down year, what about 2018? That's more tricky, because you are starting from ground zero on recruits, guys that the previous coaches have been recruiting for years, and now we have a coach that hasn't been in college recruiting for several years
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:51 PM
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Cunningham maybe? But Admiral Robinson would have been nice
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyingArrow View Post
AG in the NCAAT in year one would be impressive, but it's a bit of an exaggeration to say it's better than anything Archie did. Archie got to an Elite 8 and 4 NCAA tournaments in a row. Getting to one tournament isn't going to be better than that, even if it does require exceeding expectations.
I did not say getting to one tournament would be more impressive than those things. I said Anthony Grant getting Dayton into the tournament next year would be as impressive.

Getting to the tournament itself does not equal a deep run or getting there four times consecutively, but go look at the roster Archie inherited in 2011-12 and compare it to what Dayton has now. We went to the NIT that year. As it turned out adding Alex Gavrilovic (Archie's first and only recruit in that class) wasn't quite enough to put us into the NCAA.

Anthony Grant has his work cut out for him in terms of recruiting and re-recruiting plus implementing a new system. Making the NCAA tourney his first year would be ridiculously impressive.

So I stand by that statement.
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Old 03-31-2017, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I disagree...there is no reason that 2017-2018 has to be a non-NCAAT year...I feel like people are already making excuses for AG to miss the NCAAT next year.

I have already seen a couple of posts writing off next year.

If we had Archie or one of his assistants as hc, then I would feel confident that we would make the 2017-2018 NCAAT.

With Grant, I am much less confident.

And I agree that making 2018-2019 NCAAT, in AG's 2nd year, is a very reasonable expectation.
People were saying we wouldn't make the NCAA next season long before Grant was hired. It was because we lost four seniors and they weren't too high on some of the underclassmen. It has nothing to do with Grant.
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  #293  
Old 03-31-2017, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I disagree...there is no reason that 2017-2018 has to be a non-NCAAT year...I feel like people are already making excuses for AG to miss the NCAAT next year.
In fairness, though, there's an entire thread speculating on the 2017-2018 where many people were saying it was going to be at best tough to make the tournament even with Miller and his entire recruiting class being here. Speculating Dayton's unlikely to make the NCAA tournament next season didn't start yesterday; it basically started the day after we lost to Wichita State.
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  #294  
Old 03-31-2017, 02:31 PM
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Old 03-31-2017, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
I appreciate the presentation of statistics brought to light by a less than overzealous source, like Figgie123. Sorry but bending the truth to fit your argument discredits your statement.

I do appreciate your leg work, Rue. You bring some good information to the board on a regular basis. I'm not going after you but the statements I see here that all the sudden point to flaws in the previous coach. And it ticks me off. If we'd have hired a proven winner the sleight on Archie would be less offensive. I'll always follow Archie for what he did here. I understand the bias from some but I don't have ill will. No one has a good reason to show ill will for AM imho.

If you're going to say Archie was lucky in those close games then I can counter that with the coaching went south in crunch-time at Alabama. Because bad coaches lose in crunch-time.
And if you look at my posts throughout the thread I would agree with that. Archie has had more success than Anthony due to a combination of luck and better coaching. I have consistently argued AM is a better coach than AG, but to-date it is not as big of a difference as at first blush. I would consider VCU, Bama, and Dayton all in the 40-60 best program range so I think coaches performance at those schools a fair compare. The gap will be huge with Archie at Indiana.

In basketball and in life, people underestimate the luck factor using trite phrases like you make your luck. I do think Archie has been a tad lucky in NCAA games and Grant a tad unlucky, also a very small sample size. But Archie is a better coach than Grant.
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Old 03-31-2017, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I disagree...there is no reason that 2017-2018 has to be a non-NCAAT year...I feel like people are already making excuses for AG to miss the NCAAT next year.

I have already seen a couple of posts writing off next year.

If we had Archie or one of his assistants as hc, then I would feel confident that we would make the 2017-2018 NCAAT.

With Grant, I am much less confident.

And I agree that making 2018-2019 NCAAT, in AG's 2nd year, is a very reasonable expectation.
As we sit here today discussing this, next year will be a non NCAA team and that is very reasonable to assume.. Naturally, we will address this once again when we know if all the recruits are staying and how realistically and to the degree the sophomore class improves and how healthy this team can stay
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Old 03-31-2017, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
In basketball and in life, people underestimate the luck factor using trite phrases like you make your luck. I do think Archie has been a tad lucky in NCAA games and Grant a tad unlucky, also a very small sample size. But Archie is a better coach than Grant.
Agree. Archie was great, but Ohio State had a last second shot to beat us and Syracuse had a last second shot to beat us. If Craft's shot goes in, we're probably not talking about any of this. I said at the time we were lucky, but that it just made up for all the bad luck we had in previous NCAA Tournaments.
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Old 03-31-2017, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
People were saying we wouldn't make the NCAA next season long before Grant was hired. It was because we lost four seniors and they weren't too high on some of the underclassmen. It has nothing to do with Grant.
Very similar comments on this board were made after Archie suspended our front court players before the team was morphed to play small-ball, and before the elite-8 run. Statistics don't show intangibles most often. In all honesty I think Archie, from past performance, has intangibles in spades over AG, based on past performance. I want a coach that doesn't wilt in crunch-time. Not saying it happened to AG, but losing close games more often than not is not bad luck. It's often because the players couldn't keep the pace or they didn't make the right adjustments. Sounds pretty unconvincing until you factor in the team included a top five recruiting class. What would Archie....oh, nevermind.
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  #299  
Old 03-31-2017, 07:33 PM
N2663R N2663R is offline
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"Anthony Grant and Neil Slullivan agree that Dayton is a destination job." Two down, the rest of the college basketball world to go . . . . .
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  #300  
Old 03-31-2017, 07:57 PM
pmcmullen pmcmullen is offline
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I thought we had great fans until reading this. Seriously.

Grant has been coach for what, 30-some hours and some of you are already calling for his head? Welcome our guy back home and wish him well.

In the words of Charlie Brown, good grief!
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3 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to pmcmullen For This Totally Excellent Post:
BeckysTXA (04-01-2017), longtimefan (03-31-2017), TMPH66 (04-01-2017)
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