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  #901  
Old 12-12-2018, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by flybye View Post
Listen to podcast..... Val said more than 3 schools have reached out and talked about fan base traveling to the Garden as a factor!
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Linky goodness?
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  #902  
Old 12-12-2018, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer View Post
They’ve also never won two consecutive games in the NCAA tournament. Omaha is also not a particularly large TV market, smaller than Dayton according to https://newsgeneration.com/broadcast...radio-markets/ and https://www.stationindex.com/tv/tv-markets.

So we can objectively rule out geography, post-season success, and TV market as deciding factors.
Creighton has made the NCAA tourney a bunch in the Missouri Valley (8 times since 1999 till they joined Big East in 13 along 4 NIT trips), is in the top 10 attendance and has top notch facilities

When you make the NCAA tourney a bunch of times in decade good things happen
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  #903  
Old 12-12-2018, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer View Post
Linky goodness?
https://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...s-latest-loss/
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  #904  
Old 12-12-2018, 09:13 PM
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So you would rather be a bottom dweller in the big east than a perennial participant in the NCAA in a lesser conference
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  #905  
Old 12-12-2018, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer View Post
They’ve also never won two consecutive games in the NCAA tournament. Omaha is also not a particularly large TV market, smaller than Dayton according to https://newsgeneration.com/broadcast...radio-markets/ and https://www.stationindex.com/tv/tv-markets.

So we can objectively rule out geography, post-season success, and TV market as deciding factors.
I agree on the “geography” and “TV market” aspects of your post. But “post-season success” doesn’t need to mean WINNING NCAA Tournament games. It can simply mean PLAYING IN NCAA Tournament games. And, over the past 15-20 years, Creighton has definitely made it into The Dance with some frequency.

And then, there is the “Jesuit Mafia” angle (and that’s coming from a guy whose daughter has 2 diplomas from a Jesuit university).
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  #906  
Old 12-12-2018, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
I agree on the “geography” and “TV market” aspects of your post. But “post-season success” doesn’t need to mean WINNING NCAA Tournament games. It can simply mean PLAYING IN NCAA Tournament games. And, over the past 15-20 years, Creighton has definitely made it into The Dance with some frequency.

And then, there is the “Jesuit Mafia” angle (and that’s coming from a guy whose daughter has 2 diplomas from a Jesuit university).
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It also helps when your AD is chairman of the NCAA Tournament Selection Committee and you get an at-large bid that you probably did not deserve and then get over-seeded to boot.

Last edited by ud69; 12-12-2018 at 10:32 PM..
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  #907  
Old 12-12-2018, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
So you would rather be a bottom dweller in the big east than a perennial participant in the NCAA in a lesser conference
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If we're good enough to have an at large bid out of the A10 we should be good enough to make it a bigger conference. I mean did they get like 6 bids last year?
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  #908  
Old 12-12-2018, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
But “post-season success” doesn’t need to mean WINNING NCAA Tournament games.
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I get your point, but I think it does. Getting to the NCAA Tournament is an accomplishment in itself, but the fact that Creighton has literally never put together a run has got to be frustrating. There is a difference between making the post-season and post-season success, which is why I phrased it that way. Creighton has been good at the former, but not so much the latter. They are one team I can always count on to wet the bed in my bracket. Always. LOL.
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  #909  
Old 12-12-2018, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
So you would rather be a bottom dweller in the big east than a perennial participant in the NCAA in a lesser conference
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One thing is that the schedule would be a lot more interesting. I’m not so sure the Big East teams would consistently win at UD Arena. Heck, they’re afraid to come as it is. #RememberPitt’07
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  #910  
Old 12-13-2018, 12:53 AM
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What would the recruiting bump from the Big East be? If you look at recruiting rankings Creighton, Butler and Xavier were able to get higher caliber guys. Creighton pretty clearly bumped into the 4 star range more consistently and started getting into the conversation with top 100 guys. In the Missouri Valley they were getting 2-3 stars and going off memory they never had anyone as highly rated as Staten or Chris Wright

What does this mean for Dayton? Recruiting would get a bump but would the Big East be the difference in closing with some of these guys that went to P5/Big East? Would someone like Adrien Payne stay home or the near misses like Jacob Pullen or the numerous near misses to power conference schools since BG?

Don’t know but I think to look back and say it’s automatically the Great Midwest 2.0 is shortsighted. Program and recruiting are in a different place
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  #911  
Old 12-13-2018, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer View Post
I get your point, but I think it does. Getting to the NCAA Tournament is an accomplishment in itself, but the fact that Creighton has literally never put together a run has got to be frustrating. There is a difference between making the post-season and post-season success, which is why I phrased it that way. Creighton has been good at the former, but not so much the latter. They are one team I can always count on to wet the bed in my bracket. Always. LOL.
I’m sure it’s somewhat frustrating to the Creighton fan base, but as far as the BE is concerned, I’m guessing NCAA Tournament wins are simply the cherry on the sundae. When you consider the $ value of simply making The Dance as an At Large team, I’m sure the Conference brass isn’t that disappointed that Creighton is a “one and done” as often as not.
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  #912  
Old 12-13-2018, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
So you would rather be a bottom dweller in the big east than a perennial participant in the NCAA in a lesser conference
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Yes

But they are not mutually exclusive.
1. Presumably the ability to recruit would improve as the status of the conference improves.
2. Following the line of thinking that UD would be a bottom dweller in the Big East says a lot about your opinion of UD Basketball as it currently is and is projected to be if it continues in the A-10 that it will be a
a. big fish in the small pond of the A-10 or
b. a tiny fish in the Big East.
So as a corollary to that line of thinking it probably would be better if Dayton were in the Horizon League where it would be an even bigger fish than it is in the A-10
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  #913  
Old 12-13-2018, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by oldfan View Post
Yes

But they are not mutually exclusive.
1. Presumably the ability to recruit would improve as the status of the conference improves.
2. Following the line of thinking that UD would be a bottom dweller in the Big East says a lot about your opinion of UD Basketball as it currently is and is projected to be if it continues in the A-10 that it will be a
a. big fish in the small pond of the A-10 or
b. a tiny fish in the Big East.
So as a corollary to that line of thinking it probably would be better if Dayton were in the Horizon League where it would be an even bigger fish than it is in the A-10
3. The perennial bottom third of the A10 is comprised of intramural programs.
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  #914  
Old 12-13-2018, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
I’m sure it’s somewhat frustrating to the Creighton fan base, but as far as the BE is concerned, I’m guessing NCAA Tournament wins are simply the cherry on the sundae. When you consider the $ value of simply making The Dance as an At Large team, I’m sure the Conference brass isn’t that disappointed that Creighton is a “one and done” as often as not.
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But isn't the $ value even more for the conference if you win games in the NCAA tourney? So wouldn't the league want them to go further in the tournament?
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  #915  
Old 12-13-2018, 11:26 AM
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BE would certainly help recruiting. Dayton has tons of positives going for it. The A10 is not one of them. Immediately our relative weakness becomes a relative strength.

UD would be competitive in the BE this year with our current roster. Not for the league championship but I'd guess .500, perhaps slightly below. Our roster is short handed but tough and competitive. Pretty much every team has let down games every year but playing BE competition would make getting pumped up for each game much easier. Trying to get pumped up to go play the bottom of the A10 in mid-January has got to be pretty much impossible.

Having BE teams at the arena all winter would be fantastic.
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  #916  
Old 12-13-2018, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
But isn't the $ value even more for the conference if you win games in the NCAA tourney? So wouldn't the league want them to go further in the tournament?
Of course Creighton and the league want them to do better but as is they're not a net negative to the conference
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  #917  
Old 12-13-2018, 03:01 PM
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Ackerman said any school up for consideration would have to check a lot of boxes before entering into real discussion.

"Geography would be important," she said. "Commitment to basketball would probably be the No. 1 thing, the notion that they would be additive as it relates to our basketball prospects. Are they going to help secure our chances every year of getting into the NCAA Tournament? Possible No. 2: Would they help us with our tournament? Would they bring fans to Madison Square Garden?"

The Catholic-school angle is also not insignificant. Butler, which is private and of similar makeup to the other nine, is the only non-Catholic institution in the Big East. There's also a high level of camaraderie and morale among the membership now, something that Ackerman noted wasn't there right before the old Big East fissured, when the league was bigger.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...-3-point-woes/
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  #918  
Old 12-13-2018, 03:17 PM
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Perhaps I am reading Ackerman’s comments through my Marianist/Columbia Blue tinted glasses, but:

Geography? Check. Look at a map of the current Big East, and UD is located smack dab in the middle of the other 10 schools.

Commitment to basketball? Check.

Bring fans to MSG? Check.

Catholic? Check.

SLU also checks some boxes, although geography and bringing fans to MSG are somewhat question marks. SLU fans are much more “fair weather” than UD fans. SLU does have the Jesuit angle though lol.
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  #919  
Old 12-13-2018, 03:21 PM
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Remember for St. Louis as late the end of the Majerus beginning of the Jim Crews the coaches were battling to get charter flights to all their away games. They were flying out of St. Louis connecting in Chicago or Charlotte with their center potentially sitting in the middle seat in coach.

Their practice facility is also the home court of their volleyball team.

Majerus had to battle their administration get the things that are given for Dayton basketball. In terms of pure commitment to basketball there's no question Dayton is at another level them
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  #920  
Old 12-13-2018, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer View Post
The Catholic-school angle is also not insignificant. Butler, which is private and of similar makeup to the other nine, is the only non-Catholic institution in the Big East. There's also a high level of camaraderie and morale among the membership now, something that Ackerman noted wasn't there right before the old Big East fissured, when the league was bigger.
Catholic = Good

But does Camaraderie = Jesuits get along with each other great, not so much Marianists???
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Old 12-13-2018, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
Catholic = Good

But does Camaraderie = Jesuits get along with each other great, not so much Marianists???

The Catholic/camaraderie angle would seem to contradict the widespread speculation that the Big East is sending “smoke signals” to UConn.

Just my opinion, but I just can’t see UConn fitting into the current Big East. They obviously check lots of boxes, but institutionally it’s like trying to fit a square peg into a circle hole.
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Old 12-13-2018, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
3. The perennial bottom third of the A10 is comprised of intramural programs.

Unfortunately we have a long habit of losing to those A10 intramural programs anywhere but UD Arena. If we think its hard winning at UMass, SJU, LaSalle, and Duquesne, imagine ever winning anywhere on the road other than DePaul.
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  #923  
Old 12-13-2018, 04:02 PM
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We are the most obvious addition, but we were the most obvious last time too. Our position as the best candidate hasn't changed. Unfortunately the politics around expansion hasn't changed either.
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  #924  
Old 12-13-2018, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
We are the most obvious addition, but we were the most obvious last time too. Our position as the best candidate hasn't changed. Unfortunately the politics around expansion hasn't changed either.
No way we were more obvious than Butler or Xavier
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  #925  
Old 12-13-2018, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer View Post
Ackerman said any school up for consideration would have to check a lot of boxes before entering into real discussion.

"Geography would be important," she said. "Commitment to basketball would probably be the No. 1 thing, the notion that they would be additive as it relates to our basketball prospects. Are they going to help secure our chances every year of getting into the NCAA Tournament? Possible No. 2: Would they help us with our tournament? Would they bring fans to Madison Square Garden?"

The Catholic-school angle is also not insignificant. Butler, which is private and of similar makeup to the other nine, is the only non-Catholic institution in the Big East. There's also a high level of camaraderie and morale among the membership now, something that Ackerman noted wasn't there right before the old Big East fissured, when the league was bigger.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...-3-point-woes/
"The Catholic School angle" is not a quote from Ackerman, so it is the author's opinion.

Who know what "geography" means? Close to the other schools, close to Creighton, not in an area of another BE school, in a large metro area?

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Old 12-13-2018, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Unfortunately we have a long habit of losing to those A10 intramural programs anywhere but UD Arena. If we think its hard winning at UMass, SJU, LaSalle, and Duquesne, imagine ever winning anywhere on the road other than DePaul.

Yeah but in the Big East, some of those would be considered “good losses” and we would be “gaining steam.” There’s no gaining steam when you lose to LaSalle and Duquesne.
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Old 12-13-2018, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Unfortunately we have a long habit of losing to those A10 intramural programs anywhere but UD Arena. If we think its hard winning at UMass, SJU, LaSalle, and Duquesne, imagine ever winning anywhere on the road other than DePaul.
This is where the mantra of defense travels hopefully develops under AG
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Old 12-13-2018, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
"The Catholic School angle" is not a quote from Ackerman, so it is the author's opinion.

Who know what "geography" means? Close to the other schools, close to Creighton, not in an area of another BE school, in a large metro area?
my read on geography is in the Big East footprint, ie not Gonzaga
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Old 12-13-2018, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
"The Catholic School angle" is not a quote from Ackerman, so it is the author's opinion.

You could be right, or it could be more like the author “editorializing” Ackerman’s comments. It’s unclear because the author kind of mixed that in with:

“There's also a high level of camaraderie and morale among the membership now, something that Ackerman noted wasn't there right before the old Big East fissured, when the league was bigger.”
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Old 12-13-2018, 04:27 PM
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I think the commitment to basketball angle is underappreciated. Outside the P5/Big East/AAC and certainly ahead of some of the programs in those leagues in terms of investing facilities, amenities, staff, travel, etc. The stuff the fans don't see but are the building blocks of being successful

I don't know how successful would be in the Big East but it's not because the program didn't do it's end investing back into basketball

Rhode Island who's one of the better programs resource wise in the league had Hurley fighting with the administration to get chartered flights to away games so they didn't have to take a 7 hour bus ride to play George Washington and to get a dedicated practice facility the team didn't compete with intramurals

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Old 12-13-2018, 05:31 PM
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looks like Xavier is sending smoke signals. Selling Blackburn-McCafferty trophy on ebay?
https://www.daytondailynews.com/spor...jpU0inYvfYnlI/
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Old 12-13-2018, 05:59 PM
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So when the NBE was originally formed, I assume UD wanted in and they plead their case and for what ever reason(s) we were not admitted. Ok, fast forward to today, what has changed? What has not? Do we check all the boxes? How do we stack up against the other possible schools? (SLU - UCONN)

I'm guessing the NBE and UD know each other very well at this point and they know that yes, we check all the boxes, and in some cases we double check some boxes - Facilities - Fan base - Traveling Fan Base - Commitment to BBall - Financial Resources. (To this last point, it's my understanding that there are enough large donors ready to write whatever checks are necessary if we are invited to the NBE. Money is not a concern. Also, I believe we would be near the very top of the NBE in terms of the the financial health and stability of our entire Athletic Department.)

What has changed? "New" arena - new coaching staff - new AD - new president. Can Eric and Neil get done what Dan and Ted could not?? Are they pushing enough - are they pushing too hard - do they have good chemistry with their NBE counterparts? etc. etc.

What has not changed - Fan support in total - it is legendary in college basketball and will only get better in the NBE. This is a great selling point. Basketball success - overall we have not improved in W/L or A10 Tournament success. We did have a deep run in the NCAA but that was with a different coach and AG is to new to grade at this point.

How do we stack up against SLU and UCONN? That is a huge question.
UD - has a better fan base - facilities - commitment to Bball
SLU - has a TV market the NBE wants - Jesuit school
UCONN - Ex BE school - geographically a good fit - fan base is thick on the east coast

At the end of the day, UD needs to start winning a lot of basketball games - NOW, and Neil and Eric need to brush up on their Dale Carnegie skills - NOW.

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Old 12-13-2018, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mikeymo85 View Post
looks like Xavier is sending smoke signals. Selling Blackburn-McCafferty trophy on ebay?
https://www.daytondailynews.com/spor...jpU0inYvfYnlI/

They really are that short on cashflow for 600 dollars lol. What a tacky move and lack of repect to one of their own former coaches.
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Old 12-13-2018, 06:58 PM
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TV markets only matter if you've got a conference network. IE the Big 10 network can charge more money to cable/satellite providers in NYC/NJ because of Rutgers or greater D.C. because of Maryland

Fox Sports 1 isn't going to able to charge a bigger fee because of Dayton or St. Louis
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Old 12-13-2018, 09:23 PM
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Not really buying the get better recruits argument. Xavier killed us in recruiting while in the A10, as did Butler and several of our current conference members routinely recruit better, like VCU. Maybe it’s us.
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Old 12-13-2018, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by maddog07 View Post
Not really buying the get better recruits argument. Xavier killed us in recruiting while in the A10, as did Butler and several of our current conference members routinely recruit better, like VCU. Maybe it’s us.
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Maybe it's YOU miserabledog! Maybe our potential recruits come to this board and read how horrible the UD program is according to you...

Just kidding but I do enjoy calling you miserabledog!
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Old 12-14-2018, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Furio View Post
They really are that short on cashflow for 600 dollars lol. What a tacky move and lack of repect to one of their own former coaches.
I’m tempted to buy it and donate it to UD so they can install it as a urinal in the revamped Arena west wing. That way, I can make good on the saying “Pi$$ on ‘em!”
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Old 12-14-2018, 12:44 AM
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You all are making this way too complicated.... The powers to be in the Big Least simply do not see Dayton as a peer institution.... They look way way down on us. They will NEVER accept UD as an equal.... not on any level. So forget all this nonsense talk! It ain't happening! Logic does not enter into it.
Fact of the matter is we can be just as successful in the A10 IF we would just WIN! Winning will cure all ills!
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Old 12-14-2018, 07:38 AM
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Disagree, we have a very good shot at getting in.The admins and ADs have changed since the last go around.
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Old 12-14-2018, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by TerryK_67 View Post
You all are making this way too complicated.... The powers to be in the Big Least simply do not see Dayton as a peer institution.... They look way way down on us. They will NEVER accept UD as an equal.... not on any level. So forget all this nonsense talk! It ain't happening! Logic does not enter into it.
Fact of the matter is we can be just as successful in the A10 IF we would just WIN! Winning will cure all ills!
I don't really buy this. We are a least a peer institution. We don't have the success of some of the schools, but do have much more than others in the NBE. Much nicer facilities than most. A much larger following and travel fan base than most. A larger endowment than most. A school like Seton Hall does not compare what so ever to Dayton on practically any level. I think we will be in the mix. Completely believe that. Adding St Louis would be boring. Adding a hated Xavier rival would be exciting. It would add two very high level "premier" type games to FS1 when we play X. No one cares of SLU. Can you imagine G-Town in the Arena? Villanova? Those would be prime time FS1 games. NO QUESTION.
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Old 12-14-2018, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by TerryK_67 View Post
You all are making this way too complicated.... The powers to be in the Big Least simply do not see Dayton as a peer institution.... They look way way down on us. They will NEVER accept UD as an equal.... not on any level. So forget all this nonsense talk! It ain't happening! Logic does not enter into it.
Fact of the matter is we can be just as successful in the A10 IF we would just WIN! Winning will cure all ills!


Yeah this is not true. Our conference limits recruiting. Winning in the A10 will still not bring in the level of recruits on a consistent basis of being in a better conference.
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Old 12-14-2018, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
TV markets only matter if you've got a conference network. IE the Big 10 network can charge more money to cable/satellite providers in NYC/NJ because of Rutgers or greater D.C. because of Maryland

Fox Sports 1 isn't going to able to charge a bigger fee because of Dayton or St. Louis
Can you expand on this? I thought that the Fox National channel(the main, national, broadcast channel), FS1 and FS2 are part of some cable packages and thus attract viewers. FWIW, some of the BE games are on the Fox national channel.

Last edited by ud2; 12-14-2018 at 09:46 AM..
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Old 12-14-2018, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
Adding St Louis would be boring. Adding a hated Xavier rival would be exciting. It would add two very high level "premier" type games to FS1 when we play X. No one cares of SLU. Can you imagine G-Town in the Arena? Villanova? Those would be prime time FS1 games. NO QUESTION.
I hate to disagree, but I doubt that UD versus any NBE team, including zavier would rise to the level of "Prime Time" to many fans outside of the Miami Valley. The UD versus X game would draw some additional eyeballs, but only in Ohio.
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Old 12-14-2018, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
I hate to disagree, but I doubt that UD versus any NBE team, including zavier would rise to the level of "Prime Time" to many fans outside of the Miami Valley. The UD versus X game would draw some additional eyeballs, but only in Ohio.
Would a Georgetown at UD Arena be a bigger deal than Providence at DePaul or Seton Hall? Seton Hall may be in the BE, but are they really a bigger program than Dayton? Depaul? Xavier/Dayton was always nationally broadcasted. Try watching some of the FS1 BE games. Many are boring. UD Arena is NEVER boring.
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Old 12-14-2018, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
I hate to disagree, but I doubt that UD versus any NBE team, including zavier would rise to the level of "Prime Time" to many fans outside of the Miami Valley. The UD versus X game would draw some additional eyeballs, but only in Ohio.
You may be correct initially but I think once we are established as a BE school our games, especially against X, would certainly become "Prime Time" material, especially if we are winning and near the top of the Big East. If Seton Hall were not invited originally to the Big East they would not be a national name and in fact it took them many years in the BE to get out of the cellar.

On the flip side Holy Cross was asked to be an original member and declined because they did not give athletic scholarships at the time and knew to compete that they would need to. The school has been on record as saying it was the biggest mistake they ever made. If Holy Cross had accepted back then they may be more of a household name Nationally than a small major that occasionally makes the NCAA tournament.

Just being in the BE will make us more visible nationally which will enhance our appeal for "Prime Time" and winning in the BE will keep us there.

Like someone else said we have much more to offer than many of the schools currently in the BE, we just haven't had the luxury of having our team in a conference with national TV exposure. I am very familiar with Providence and trust me we have much more going on than they do.

When UConn was still in the BE and they were planning their new practice facility some of their staff visited Dayton's new facility and they modeled their new facility after ours. In many ways we have been ahead of the curve in basketball related issues, even more than some of the top tier teams as evidenced by this.
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Old 12-14-2018, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
You may be correct initially but I think once we are established as a BE school our games, especially against X, would certainly become "Prime Time" material, especially if we are winning and near the top of the Big East. If Seton Hall were not invited originally to the Big East they would not be a national name and in fact it took them many years in the BE to get out of the cellar . . .
. . . When UConn was still in the BE and they were planning their new practice facility some of their staff visited Dayton's new facility and they modeled their new facility after ours. In many ways we have been ahead of the curve in basketball related issues, even more than some of the top tier teams as evidenced by this.
I get what you are saying, but I think I have a higher expectation for "Prime Time" - to me it's watching a game that I know will be good even though I have no rooting interest in either team. I liken any UD NBE game to Butler vs. DePaul or even Georgetown - us being Butler. A cult following, but not necessarily enough to get me to watch as a casual fan. To your point - If we are near the top of the standings, there is more at stake and more people will watch - regardless of the two teams. Just my $0.02.

Dose anyone know what kind of time frame the NBE is talking about?
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Old 12-14-2018, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
I get what you are saying, but I think I have a higher expectation for "Prime Time" - to me it's watching a game that I know will be good even though I have no rooting interest in either team. I liken any UD NBE game to Butler vs. DePaul or even Georgetown - us being Butler. A cult following, but not necessarily enough to get me to watch as a casual fan. To your point - If we are near the top of the standings, there is more at stake and more people will watch - regardless of the two teams. Just my $0.02.

Dose anyone know what kind of time frame the NBE is talking about?
There is no time frame, and right now no talk by the BE of expansion. Read the article, it is all what ifs and would they's. Sometimes there can be more going on than is public, but this article also could be a reporter seeking a story where there is little smoke and no fire.
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Old 12-14-2018, 01:46 PM
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TV markets only matter if you're a big state school with lots of t-shirt fans - none of the Big East schools meet that definition. Look at Butler - sure Indy is a big market - but one could argue that they're at best fourth in their own market behind IU, PU, ND, and the Pacers. Depaul? Surely behind Illinois, the Bulls, the Blackhawks, and probably ND, IU, and Wisconsin. Georgetown? Wizards, Capitals, Maryland, Virginia. St John's? Only the Knicks, Nets, Rangers, Islanders, etc. Xavier probably delivers more eyeballs per capita because they only have Cincinnati and UK to compete with.

Of course, none of the above considers football.

The TV market argument is made by people that are looking for a reason to dismiss UD as a candidate.

All that said, I don't believe UD has a shot. I think Xavier has blacklisted them as part of their campaign to become the premier Catholic university in Ohio - and they've chosen to knock down their competition rather than build themselves and their Wright State-ish campus up. Fortunately for UD (the school), they've got a long way to go.

I hope I'm wrong.
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Old 12-14-2018, 01:48 PM
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In retrospect, Wright State has a nicer campus although it's been a couple years since I have been on either so that may have changed.
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Old 12-14-2018, 02:19 PM
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If you went back 10 years and told people that Butler would go two straight national title games and then join the Big East. Rutgers and Maryland would be in the Big 10 and Wichita State would be in the same conference as UConn. Most people in my estimation would think that would be far fetched

The possible changes in this realignment stuff
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Old 12-14-2018, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by sheg View Post
All that said, I don't believe UD has a shot. I think Xavier has blacklisted them as part of their campaign to become the premier Catholic university in Ohio - and they've chosen to knock down their competition rather than build themselves and their Wright State-ish campus up. Fortunately for UD (the school), they've got a long way to go.

I hope I'm wrong.
I had said this when the original NBE started but it's probably worth mentioning again. I had a conversation with someone affiliated with the Providence basketball program who I know and who I consider to probably have some decent inside knowledge of this. He told me back when they chose the three new members that Dayton was not selected as a concession to Xavier. But he also said that Xavier was told that this was only until the league expands again, although there was no timetable as to when that expansion would happen. Obviously things may have changed since then but I always thought that was a pretty good sign that we may be in the next wave if expansion did happen.
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Old 12-14-2018, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
I had said this when the original NBE started but it's probably worth mentioning again. I had a conversation with someone affiliated with the Providence basketball program who I know and who I consider to probably have some decent inside knowledge of this. He told me back when they chose the three new members that Dayton was not selected as a concession to Xavier. But he also said that Xavier was told that this was only until the league expands again, although there was no timetable as to when that expansion would happen. Obviously things may have changed since then but I always thought that was a pretty good sign that we may be in the next wave if expansion did happen.
I certainly hope that's the case- and we can't wait too long to become relevant again in the NCAAT. Archie did wonders for this program's profile, and despite having completely different strengths I am thinking Coach Grant will regain the momentum quickly. Many of us just do not appreciate the importance of being in the BE with our natural peers.
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Old 12-14-2018, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Can you expand on this? I thought that the Fox National channel(the main, national, broadcast channel), FS1 and FS2 are part of some cable packages and thus attract viewers. FWIW, some of the BE games are on the Fox national channel.
So the Big Ten negotiates the fee per subscriber with each cable/satellite/etc company in the country

In a market in places like Ohio (OSU/Big 10 country) they can obviously charge a higher fee because the demand is there than say the cable provider in Salt Lake City. Maryland and Rutgers were added to the conference so that they go into Jersey/NYC and DC Metro areas and charge those cable companies a higher rate since those are local teams. Consider too that the Big 10 schools have huge alumni bases in both those areas so the demand shoots up for the B10 network there

the Big East is one small part of the pie for FS1, FS2 and broadcast Fox. A 2nd tier Big 12 game on FS1 is getting better ratings than a Georgetown Villanova game. Adding a TV market to small portion of their offerings and not even their highest rated programming isn't going to move the needle in negotiating a higher subscriber fee for FS1 or FS2 or move the needle in ratings for Fox broadcast. College basketball is way behind college football when it comes to ratings

Dayton and St. Louis's TV market size have nothing to with this decision. Comparing a conference network versus vs. one league as a part of sports channels offering isn't the same thing

Consider this, if the Big 10 network goes to an Omaha/Nebraska cable provider and says I want $.50 more per subscriber

FS1 goes to a St. Louis/Missouri cable provider and says I want a .$25 more per subscriber

are the few people that care about St. Louis basketball going to move the needle in any way in Missouri and give FS1 anymore negotiating leverage?

Does the flagship state university with football/basketball give the Big 10 network negotiating leverage?

If you remember when the Big 10 network started, they weren't on some of the cable providers in Ohio because they were in a game of chicken with them over the subscriber fee level
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Old 12-14-2018, 04:37 PM
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Tier 2/3 (whatever they have) rights for Big 10 football games are more lucrative for FS1 than Villanova in the greater Philly area
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Old 12-14-2018, 04:59 PM
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But doesn't every network want games in bigger TV markets because they can entice their advertisers? If they feel like they can get advertisers to pay more because of the bigger TV markets the network then will offer more to the league for the rights?
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Old 12-14-2018, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
But doesn't every network want games in bigger TV markets because they can entice their advertisers? If they feel like they can get advertisers to pay more because of the bigger TV markets the network then will offer more to the league for the rights?
Fordham is in a big TV market but there's not the demand side from the consumer.

College basketball especially outside of the big state universities/conferences doesn't have the ratings to start demanding big fees or fee increases per subscriber

Saturday’s Villanova-Providence Big East Tournament final scored a 0.9 rating and 1.5 million viewers on FOX
http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2018...fox-villanova/

Last Saturday’s Heisman Trophy Presentation earned a 1.8 rating and 2.93 million viewers on ESPN,
http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2018...ree-year-high/

The Heisman Trophy Presentation drew over a million more viewers than the Big East conference tourney final this year.
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Old 12-14-2018, 05:19 PM
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Lots of apples to oranges.
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Old 12-14-2018, 05:29 PM
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Last Saturday’s Atlanta-Portland MLS Cup earned a 0.9 rating and 1.563 million viewers on FOX
http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2018...k-high-on-fox/

The MLS Cup had more viewers than the Big East Final

Think about it like this.

Boston College and Miami in the ACC are in two of the Top 20 media markets in the U.S. Oklahoma and Texas are in two smaller media markets.

Who's getting more money for a TV network?

Markets mean nothing unless the fan base (demand) is there. Clearly Illinois-Chicago, SMU Football or La Salle aren't in demand for TV networks
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Old 12-14-2018, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Lots of apples to oranges.
ratings are what matter to a sports network whether they're getting from basketball, football or F1
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Old 12-14-2018, 05:42 PM
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I think that UD has done everything they can do in terms of facilities, ensuring donor and fan support, and seeing that UD has a very steady foundation. UD has positioned themselves to be successful in the A10 for years. The outcomes have been based on whether or not the team has performed to the anticipated expectations, or exceeded them.

Getting into the BE doesn't guarantee better players. Facilities, coaching staff, and the school have bearing on this. Yes, players want a date with the BE and not the A10...but there are no guarantees. I say it as a Dayton homer...Dayton is Dayton. Where do you want to spend 4 years? Dayton, Ohio? Or Indy, Cincy Pittsburgh, New York, DC, Chicago? You can say all you want...the overwhelming majority of you aren't 18 year old kids. Dayton, Ohio is not a desirable destination. The University of Dayton is...and that's the hard sell. This isn't just about the BE, this is in general. If players focus on UD arena, campus, and Brown St...you have a pretty good winner. But players aren't married to a campus for 4 years and experiences outside of this do have an impact on players. I challenge anyone who ever went on a recruiting visit to say otherwise as those who have, know what goes on and what has the potential to sway a player. There is a reason why small percentages of recent Dayton alumni stay in Dayton. Jobs and whether or not you want to spend your younger years in the Oregon District.

People don't care about UD basketball outside of the Miami Valley or concentrated alumni centers. Yes, I see people with UD gear on when I travel. They all have ties to Dayton or UD. They aren't some person that lives in Texas, saw an E8 run, and bought a hoodie. That is referenced above. There are tens of thousands of UNC, UK, Duke, etc. fans that have absolutely no connection to the state or the respective U. This seriously needs to be taken into consideration in terms of the TV deals. Big networks are nice and are good for branding...but I am not convinced that any more people are going to tune in to UD if they are on FS1 versus on if they have half their games nationally televised on CBS sports or ESPN channels.

I hope they get in. But I am in no way convinced that all the things that come with the BE all of a sudden move UD into the second weekend of the NCAA tournament more often than not. I think if it does occur, there will be a bunch of hurt feelings on here if they aren't in the top half every year.
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Old 12-14-2018, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
But doesn't every network want games in bigger TV markets because they can entice their advertisers? If they feel like they can get advertisers to pay more because of the bigger TV markets the network then will offer more to the league for the rights?
Yep..and the Dayton advertisers are car dealerships, window companies, HVAC installers, grocery stores, and hospitals.
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Old 12-14-2018, 06:02 PM
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Shocka,

Couple points. Omaha, Nebraska isn't an exciting place but if you go on 247 sports or Rivals and looking at recruiting rankings they've clearly gotten a bump since moving into the Big East. Conference affiliation is a real factor in recruiting

This is from Lance McAllister article where the question was posed why can't UC do what Xavier is doing

Conference:

Big East vs the American. Again, no contest. While this new edition of the Big East might not match the 80's version, it still carries star power and name recognition. Playing the conference tournament at historic Madison Square Garden only adds to that. The American is the conference UC can't wait to get out of, offering opponents like Tulane, South Florida and East Carolina.

A former coach posed this to me: "Let's me ask you a simple question: If you were a recruit, which conference would you rather play in? Which arena would you play in? This isn't that hard."


Dayton itself may not help but Fordham isn't out recruiting UD because they're in NYC

https://700wlw.iheart.com/featured/l...-what-xu-does/

Building off what you're saying on fanbase size, if you're in a bigger market like St. Louis and you're drawing 6-7,000 people a game you're irrelevant in delivering the market.
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Old 12-14-2018, 06:05 PM
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Recruiting:

Mack has taken XU recruiting to a new level in recent years. The Big East is a big card to play on the recruiting circuit. Xavier’s five-member 2017 recruiting class has been ranked in the Top 10 in the nation by Scout.com, 247sports.com, ESPN.com and Rivals.com. I'm told incoming point guard Paul Scruggs is the highest rated recruit ever at XU.

"If you are selling the American and 5th/3rd, who exactly is buying?" said a coach I talked with.

"Keith Williams (in-coming UC recruit) picked UC over UD because of the higher level of prestige,but if a Power 5 conference were in the mix, he would have gone there," said a recruiting analyst.
https://700wlw.iheart.com/featured/l...-what-xu-does/
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Old 12-14-2018, 06:34 PM
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The best college kids need to see that proven path to the NBA, with recent examples. The BE has more than our league.
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Old 12-14-2018, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
I think that UD has done everything they can do in terms of facilities, ensuring donor and fan support, and seeing that UD has a very steady foundation. UD has positioned themselves to be successful in the A10 for years. The outcomes have been based on whether or not the team has performed to the anticipated expectations, or exceeded them.

Getting into the BE doesn't guarantee better players. Facilities, coaching staff, and the school have bearing on this. Yes, players want a date with the BE and not the A10...but there are no guarantees. I say it as a Dayton homer...Dayton is Dayton. Where do you want to spend 4 years? Dayton, Ohio? Or Indy, Cincy Pittsburgh, New York, DC, Chicago? You can say all you want...the overwhelming majority of you aren't 18 year old kids. Dayton, Ohio is not a desirable destination. The University of Dayton is...and that's the hard sell. This isn't just about the BE, this is in general. If players focus on UD arena, campus, and Brown St...you have a pretty good winner. But players aren't married to a campus for 4 years and experiences outside of this do have an impact on players. I challenge anyone who ever went on a recruiting visit to say otherwise as those who have, know what goes on and what has the potential to sway a player. There is a reason why small percentages of recent Dayton alumni stay in Dayton. Jobs and whether or not you want to spend your younger years in the Oregon District.

People don't care about UD basketball outside of the Miami Valley or concentrated alumni centers. Yes, I see people with UD gear on when I travel. They all have ties to Dayton or UD. They aren't some person that lives in Texas, saw an E8 run, and bought a hoodie. That is referenced above. There are tens of thousands of UNC, UK, Duke, etc. fans that have absolutely no connection to the state or the respective U. This seriously needs to be taken into consideration in terms of the TV deals. Big networks are nice and are good for branding...but I am not convinced that any more people are going to tune in to UD if they are on FS1 versus on if they have half their games nationally televised on CBS sports or ESPN channels.

I hope they get in. But I am in no way convinced that all the things that come with the BE all of a sudden move UD into the second weekend of the NCAA tournament more often than not. I think if it does occur, there will be a bunch of hurt feelings on here if they aren't in the top half every year.
Have you been to Storrs, CT? How did/does UConn get players to go there? There is a lot less going on in Storrs (or even Hartford which is over 30 minutes from campus) than there is in Dayton. Conference certainly matters.

Which current Big East schools have random people walking around with their gear on like UNC, UK, Duke? Villanova maybe because of very recent success. Georgetown maybe because they have lived off of their 80's bad boy rep for a long time now. Who else? I don't think there are many P5 + BE teams that have those type of fan bases like UNC, UK, Duke outside of their own alumni. The other schools still recruit better because of the conference they are in. Chris R. said the other day the P5 + BE teams have much better talent than the mid majors yet I don't see any more people walking around nationally with Providence, Marquette or Mississippi St. gear than I see UD gear. Conference certainly matters.
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Old 12-14-2018, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
I hope they get in. But I am in no way convinced that all the things that come with the BE all of a sudden move UD into the second weekend of the NCAA tournament more often than not. I think if it does occur, there will be a bunch of hurt feelings on here if they aren't in the top half every year.

Maybe, maybe not, but we’ll never know unless they try. One thing is for sure: The home schedule would instantly improve dramatically. UD has a first class arena with first class fans, but a second-rate home schedule. UD no longer plays any of its traditional rivals/opponents. The fans have been incredibly supportive and faithful over the years (decades) and, honestly, they deserve a shot at a better home schedule. (This is not a criticism of the schedulers, as I know there is little they can do about the home schedule, and the non-con road/neutral schedule has been quite good the last few years.)
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Old 12-14-2018, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Shocka,

Couple points. Omaha, Nebraska isn't an exciting place but if you go on 247 sports or Rivals and looking at recruiting rankings they've clearly gotten a bump since moving into the Big East. Conference affiliation is a real factor in recruiting

This is from Lance McAllister article where the question was posed why can't UC do what Xavier is doing



Dayton itself may not help but Fordham isn't out recruiting UD because they're in NYC

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Building off what you're saying on fanbase size, if you're in a bigger market like St. Louis and you're drawing 6-7,000 people a game you're irrelevant in delivering the market.
I spent a fair amount of time in Omaha. The city is very similar to Dayton. In terms of recruiting, Omoaha as a city would be similar to Dayton. Their fan base is similar in terms of filling their arena. The NBE has really helped them. The difference is the conference.
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Old 12-15-2018, 02:28 AM
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As much heat the A10 has taken this year as a conference by the fans and pundits, the Mountain West seems to have escaped the same scrutiny despite being ranked two spots worse in the league RPI rankings than the A10.

You think VCU and UD fans arent happy w/the A10 this year? Imagine being Nevada. Programs like UNLV, San Diego State, Boise State, New Mexico, and Wyoming are WAY down too. Maybe wayer down.
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Old 12-15-2018, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
As much heat the A10 has taken this year as a conference by the fans and pundits, the Mountain West seems to have escaped the same scrutiny despite being ranked two spots worse in the league RPI rankings than the A10.

You think VCU and UD fans arent happy w/the A10 this year? Imagine being Nevada. Programs like UNLV, San Diego State, Boise State, New Mexico, and Wyoming are WAY down too. Maybe wayer down.
They've been down the past 3-4 years so in some sense I don't think what's going on is that surprising or newsworthy. They were set to be a one bid one league last year till Nevada got upset in the conference tourney.

New Mexico I thought was gonna be good this year but then Ohio State transfer JaQuan Lyle ruptured his Achilles and is out for the year. They won or maybe were the last ones standing in the Carlton Bragg sweepstakes & are waiting on him to come off his transfer.
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Old 12-16-2018, 04:43 PM
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BE- Tell me they are not our peers

I had some time to kill so...

Name……………………….NCAAT games all-time….Last 10 years…….Type………….Population……..USN ranking…………..Endowment
Butler University…………..40………………………………..24……………….Private…… ……..5,145…….1/regional Midwest tied…..220MM
Creighton University…….34………………………………….8………………..Private…………. .8,654…….1/regional Midwest tied…..526MM
DePaul University…………46………………………………….3………………..Private………… ..22,769……………..119……………………..492MM
Georgetown University..76………………………………....7………………..Private………… .19,005………………22………………………….1.66B
Marquette University…..74………………………………….14………………Private………….. 11,426………………89……………………….626MM
Providence College………36…………………………………..6………………..Private…………..4 ,646……… 2/regional North…………..221MM
St John's University………58…………………………………..2………………..Private………… ..21,340……………..152………………………716MM
Seton Hall University……28…………………………………..4…………………Private………….9 ,801………………..119………………………251MM
Villanova University…….100…………………………………27……………….Private…………. 10,967……………….49………………………..401MM
Xavier University………….55…………………………………..22………………Private……… …..6,786………8/regional Midwest……….170MM
Expansion candidates
University of Dayton…….39…………………………………..11………………Private…………..10, 882………………127……………………..525MM
St Louis University………..16………………………………….6…………………Private………… …14,581………………106……………………..1.15B
VCU………………………………29…………………………………16…………………Public…………… .30,675………………157……………………..1.8B
University of Richmond..17………………………………….4………………….Private……………4,0 23………………..25/liberal arts……..2.3B
UCONN…………………………89………………………………..20………………….Public……… …….27,600………………63………………………..440MM

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Old 12-16-2018, 06:56 PM
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Interesting that half the BE teams do not have credentials as good as UD.
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Old 12-16-2018, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Interesting that half the BE teams do not have credentials as good as UD.
..and I did not add in the old NIT post season appearances when it was equal to the NCAAT back in the day. For some reason we preferred the NIT.
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Old 12-16-2018, 07:07 PM
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Didn't Dayton have a big Endowment drive at some point this century?
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Old 12-16-2018, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerBob View Post
..and I did not add in the old NIT post season appearances when it was equal to the NCAAT back in the day. For some reason we preferred the NIT.
Back in the day TB took the team to the Dance once, he felt he got shafted in a game against Illinois and never went back. It wasn't until DD took over that we played again in the NCAA's
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Old 12-16-2018, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Didn't Dayton have a big Endowment drive at some point this century?
Yes...and we are getting ready to have another one in 2019.
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  #976  
Old 12-16-2018, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Didn't Dayton have a big Endowment drive at some point this century?
Not to quibble, but UD's endowment is some where around 525MM and I believe Zavier is about $150MM. And to your point, UD is in year 3/4 of a quiet phase capital campaign that they hope to roll out in the next 15 years. They desperately want the endowment to hit the 1B mark, but they know that's out of reach. Look for a $300MM campaign.
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Old 12-17-2018, 08:47 AM
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N2663R, thanks I updated Dayton's endowment $$.
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Old 12-17-2018, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
Not to quibble, but UD's endowment is some where around 525MM and I believe Zavier is about $150MM. And to your point, UD is in year 3/4 of a quiet phase capital campaign that they hope to roll out in the next 15 years. They desperately want the endowment to hit the 1B mark, but they know that's out of reach. Look for a $300MM campaign.
Just ask the women. They know Flyers are much more well endowed then Musketeers.
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Old 12-17-2018, 11:26 AM
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It is amazing that VCU and Richmond with 3 1/2 the enrollment of UD have 8 times the endowment, in a metro area about the same as Dayton.
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Old 12-17-2018, 11:41 AM
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I'll take 10...

Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
Just ask the women. They know Flyers are much more well endowed then Musketeers.
Change the 'U' to 'W', add the UD logo and we have the hottest t-shirt UD has ever seen...

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Old 12-17-2018, 12:30 PM
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Wink DePaul understands it

Originally Posted by FlyerBob View Post
I certainly hope that's the case- and we can't wait too long to become relevant again in the NCAAT. Archie did wonders for this program's profile, and despite having completely different strengths I am thinking Coach Grant will regain the momentum quickly. Many of us just do not appreciate the importance of being in the BE with our natural peers.
No, but DePaul understands being in the BE with its natural peers really well.

Bob, UD cannot even schedule one two-way contract with a BE member, let alone be invited to become a conference member. Therefore, my response to you is:

Many of us just do not appreciate the glorious gift of Atlantic 10 membership, and all that it provides. UD had a shot at six major programs thus far in the season, and managed one win. I am not sure playing them every game would help at this point; unless all games would be at the puffed-out $72 million hallway.
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Old 12-17-2018, 01:24 PM
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Red face

Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach View Post
No, but DePaul understands being in the BE with its natural peers really well.

Bob, UD cannot even schedule one two-way contract with a BE member, let alone be invited to become a conference member. Therefore, my response to you is:

Many of us just do not appreciate the glorious gift of Atlantic 10 membership, and all that it provides. UD had a shot at six major programs thus far in the season, and managed one win. I am not sure playing them every game would help at this point; unless all games would be at the puffed-out $72 million hallway.
Thanks for the buzz kill Coach I've presumed there is some politics at play with the BE not scheduling us- maybe fear of losing to a program they rejected...? UD is not a "bad loss" at this point.

But your main point is that we'd become the new BE doormat. Maybe I'm wearing my homer shades but I'd expect incremental recruitment improvement being there, along with being a more attractive coach destination. DePaul is messed up and we recruit the city better than they've been able to in recent years. I still want to be in the BE with our peers, but it's not without risk is it?

All that said, the A-10 is not a bad fall back position for many reason we would agree with.
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Old 12-17-2018, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach View Post
No, but DePaul understands being in the BE with its natural peers really well.

Bob, UD cannot even schedule one two-way contract with a BE member, let alone be invited to become a conference member. Therefore, my response to you is:

Many of us just do not appreciate the glorious gift of Atlantic 10 membership, and all that it provides. UD had a shot at six major programs thus far in the season, and managed one win. I am not sure playing them every game would help at this point; unless all games would be at the puffed-out $72 million hallway.
So we lost to the second best team in the ACC, the best and second best in the SEC, the third best in the B12 and the second best in the AAC, and beat the fourth or fifth best team in the BE, in a rebuilding year with a short roster, and that rules us out of the BE forever. And we should be happy and grateful that we get to play at the likes of Fordham, George Mason and LaSalle. Got it.
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Old 12-17-2018, 06:48 PM
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Tennessee is probably the best in the SEC. But still, great post.
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Old 12-18-2018, 08:34 PM
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Cool Record against those schools,

Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
So we lost to the second best team in the ACC, the best and second best in the SEC, the third best in the B12 and the second best in the AAC, and beat the fourth or fifth best team in the BE, in a rebuilding year with a short roster, and that rules us out of the BE forever. And we should be happy and grateful that we get to play at the likes of Fordham, George Mason and LaSalle. Got it.
What's UD'S record against Fordham, Mason, and LaSalle, during our A10 Membership? Pretty substantial I would imagine; so yes there is real benefit to playing them. It's called a fabulous opportunity to make the NCAA on a regular basis. Besides, you forgot to mention the opportunity to play VCU, Rhode Island, Saint Joes, Davidson, UMASS, Richmond, etc. You make it sound like there is no upside to playing in the Atlantic 10; and, like all the Atlantic 10 programs are such dog trash, that mighty UD will dominate annually, finish first or second every year, and get to conference title game 5 out of every 10 seasons. If/when that happens, then UD can worry about improving their conference situation. And even then, you could make an even greater case for staying in the conference that allowed you to accomplish all of that.

Other fan bases know that UD and many UD fans think they are better than the A10. I'm not directing this at anyone perse, and I recognize there is an upside to Big East membership, but it's not happening.

If the Flyers win a big game, the many folks say, look that's proof that we belong in the Big East. But then when we lose a game, seems like me the same folks say that's proof that we need to be in the East. The whole idea of Big East membership has long since become a distraction for all involved.

To me the best way to show up the big east schools, is make the NCAA Tournament and beat them, just like beating Providence in Columbus, or Butler in Bahamas.

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Old 12-18-2018, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach View Post
I recognize there is an upside to Big East membership, but it's not happening.

.

A few good points Beatty, but scheduling to me is the biggest upside for joining the Big East. We all know the yearly complaint about our schedule, specifically the non con.

Lets start with the non conference schedule. Who is more likely to get a home and home with a power 5 school, which our fans want versus so many buy games. A Big East team or an A-10 team? I have to think Big East be advantage for us in this regards.

Lets move on to conference play.

Which DC team will typically excite our fan base more and be a stronger opponent, Georgetown or George Mason and GW

Philly- Villanova or LaSalle?

NY- St. Johns or Seton Hall, or stick with Fordham and their 300 fans in a HS gym?

Would you rather us have a road trip to Olean NY the middle of February, or Chicago or Milwaukee where we have large fan bases who can see our team on the road?

How about our "local" rivalries? Duquesne and St. Louis or X and Butler?

Middle of the pack in Big East has resulted in NCAA births. The Titanic A-10 is sinking. If not for a perfect late season series of upsets late season and in the A-10 tourney last year, we would have been a 2 bid maybe even 1 bid league. This year, time will tell, but it does not look good for more than one bid. big East is currently #3 RPI and pretty much locked into being top 3 all year, while A-10 is #14 currently, and could end up anywhere between #10 and # 16 when all is said and done.

If the opportunity ever comes, and I feel it will, UD better jump ship instantly, you know to generate more money for the program to pay for your $72 milliion hallway

If the Flyers say no, and someone else from the top of the A-10 says yes, our schedule gets even weaker.

Oh yea, and it has to help recruiting too, but that is topic for another day!

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Old 12-18-2018, 09:38 PM
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You guys convinced me. Let's go ahead and call then and finally accept the invitation.
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Old 12-19-2018, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
A few good points Beatty, but scheduling to me is the biggest upside for joining the Big East. We all know the yearly complaint about our schedule, specifically the non con.

Lets start with the non conference schedule. Who is more likely to get a home and home with a power 5 school, which our fans want versus so many buy games. A Big East team or an A-10 team? I have to think Big East be advantage for us in this regards.

Lets move on to conference play.

Which DC team will typically excite our fan base more and be a stronger opponent, Georgetown or George Mason and GW

Philly- Villanova or LaSalle?

NY- St. Johns or Seton Hall, or stick with Fordham and their 300 fans in a HS gym?

Would you rather us have a road trip to Olean NY the middle of February, or Chicago or Milwaukee where we have large fan bases who can see our team on the road?

How about our "local" rivalries? Duquesne and St. Louis or X and Butler?

Middle of the pack in Big East has resulted in NCAA births. The Titanic A-10 is sinking. If not for a perfect late season series of upsets late season and in the A-10 tourney last year, we would have been a 2 bid maybe even 1 bid league. This year, time will tell, but it does not look good for more than one bid. big East is currently #3 RPI and pretty much locked into being top 3 all year, while A-10 is #14 currently, and could end up anywhere between #10 and # 16 when all is said and done.

If the opportunity ever comes, and I feel it will, UD better jump ship instantly, you know to generate more money for the program to pay for your $72 milliion hallway

If the Flyers say no, and someone else from the top of the A-10 says yes, our schedule gets even weaker.

Oh yea, and it has to help recruiting too, but that is topic for another day!
What’s with the $72 million hallway comment you keep saying? Is that a joke?
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Old 12-19-2018, 01:55 AM
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NoClaytonFlyerFan,

Excellent and fair response.
As for non-conference scheduling, many suggest, and I think it is true, other programs are concerned about coming to the UD Arena for fear of getting beat by the Dayton Flyers. However, I see no reason that element would change; because while I realize your argument is a better conference affiliation would change the perception of losing to Dayton, I simply don't believe in applicable reality that it would actually change that perception. For I think UD would have to win the national championship for Duke to play us in a two-way contract (one game at UD Arena); and the same is true for Kentucky, Michigan State, UCLA, and Arizona, and Indiana, and Gonzaga, etc. Therefore, even with a modest conference upgrade (recalling that big east members are not large wealthy land grant universities with 110,000 seat football stadiums), I think you only get, at-best, a modest, and hypothetical increase in willingness of power five football schools who wish to take a loss at the UD Arena, and especially on their own home court, by playing UD.

In regard to comparing the Big East with the A10, folks tend to overlook that the A10 has four extra teams hanging off the list; but conveniently like using those same four bottom feeders in other direct school to school comparison's (trying to have it both ways). You have to remember, half the schools in the new big east, were already in the big east prior to the change; so simply going to the big east recently does not account for why Villanova won a national championship. If that were true, every big east team, then and now, would make it to two final fours. Truth is, Dayton and Villanova were equals fifteen years ago, and Villanova simply out performed its peers.

As for playing Duquesne and SLU versus Butler and Xavier; I have made about seven trips in a row over to Pittsburgh to see the UD at Duquesne game, and at-least half the time, we come out of the game pretty happy. In contrast, I rode the bus to the road Xavier game for about 12 years running, and we never came home happy (mostly because the outcome was virtually known in advance, and for the 20 years prior to my road trips. I enjoyed the XU rivalry like everyone else, but I certainly do not relish the reality that my flyers were going to lose to them every road game, and most tournament games against them, for over thirty years.

Similarly UD has struggled in the A10 on the road during most seasons in the conference. If you think that trend, or the Xavier trend, will generally change after joining the Big East; then you love the Dayton Flyers, and I respect you immensely for that. I simply stuck on the idea that we have former players reaching back for the "Other schools give out scholarships too" excuse following every middling loss in the last 10 years. That is troubling; because next thing you know, tizzy and bedell will concluded that the other schools have nets, rims, and balls. That's by far to complicated for one like myself.

Furthermore, if more UD fans will not go to Pittsburgh or Saint Louis, their sure as heck not going to travel to seton hall, or Creighton, or providence. This fan base is only so big, and it simply cannot fill every arena up and down the east coast 10 times a year; not on top of having to go to tropical paradise games, and to Connecticut, and Chicago legends, back to Hawaii, and back to Chicago again to see DePaul.


A large part of the current big east reputation, is all media and big east school driven. The big east members are catholic schools approximately same size, and in many of same metro regions, as the A10 catholic schools; they just choose to treat UD like the wicked step sister, and consequently, the UD administration and fan base have the whole thing dominate their thinking. As opposed to just embracing who we are, which would produce much better result. In fact, there is a very real notion, that a school doesn't always get punished for not being able to schedule up, if in fact it appears power programs refuse to schedule you.

I shouldn't make you folks mad at me, but why do you suffer from this "I hate my own conference complex?" Its embarrassing!

Last edited by Beatty Town Coach; 12-19-2018 at 10:19 AM..
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Old 12-19-2018, 01:57 AM
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Wink $72 Million dollar question

Originally Posted by FlyerinChicago View Post
What’s with the $72 million hallway comment you keep saying? Is that a joke?
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That's a 72 million dollar question!
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Old 12-19-2018, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach View Post
ClaytonFlyerFan,

Excellent and fair response.
As for non-conference scheduling, many suggest, and I think it is true, other programs are concerned about coming to the UD Arena for fear of getting beat by the Dayton Flyers. However, I see no reason that element would change; because while I realize your argument is a better conference affiliation would change the perception of losing to Dayton, I simply don't believe in applicable reality that it would actually change that perception. For I think UD would have to win the national championship for Duke to play us in a two-way contract (one game at UD Arena); and the same is true for Kentucky, Michigan State, UCLA, and Arizona, and Indiana, and Gonzaga, etc. Therefore, even with a modest conference upgrade (recalling that big east members are not large wealthy land grant universities with 110,000 seat football stadiums), I think you only get, at-best, a modest, and hypothetical increase in willingness of power five football schools who wish to take a loss at the UD Arena, and especially on their own home court, by playing UD.

In regard to comparing the Big East with the A10, folks tend to overlook that the A10 has four extra teams hanging off the list; but conveniently like using those same four bottom feeders in other direct school to school comparison's (trying to have it both ways). You have to remember, half the schools in the new big east, were already in the big east prior to the change; so simply going to the big east recently does not account for why Villanova won a national championship. If that were true, every big east team, then and now, would make it to two final fours. Truth is, Dayton and Villanova were equals fifteen years ago, and Villanova simply out performed its peers.

As for playing Duquesne and SLU versus Butler and Xavier; I have made about seven trips in a row over to Pittsburgh to see the UD at Duquesne game, and at-least half the time, we come out of the game pretty happy. In contrast, I rode the bus to the road Xavier game for about 12 years running, and we never came home happy (mostly because the outcome was virtually known in advance, and for the 20 years prior to my road trips. I enjoyed the XU rivalry like everyone else, but I certainly do not relish the reality that my flyers were going to lose to them every road game, and most tournament games against them, for over thirty years.

Similarly UD has struggled in the A10 on the road during most seasons in the conference. If you think that trend, or the Xavier trend, will generally change after joining the Big East; then you love the Dayton Flyers, and I respect you immensely for that. I simply stuck on the idea that we have former players reaching back for the "Other schools give out scholarships too" excuse following every middling loss in the last 10 years. That is troubling; because next thing you know, tizzy and bedell will concluded that the other schools have nets, rims, and balls. That's by far to complicated for one like myself.

Furthermore, if more UD fans will not go to Pittsburgh or Saint Louis, their sure as heck not going to travel to seton hall, or Creighton, or providence. This fan base is only so big, and it simply cannot fill every arena up and down the east coast 10 times a year; not on top of having to go to tropical paradise games, and to Connecticut, and Chicago legends, back to Hawaii, and back to Chicago again to see DePaul.


A large part of the current big east reputation, is all media and big east school driven. The big east members are catholic schools approximately same size, and in many of same metro regions, as the A10 catholic schools; they just choose to treat UD like the wicked step sister, and consequently, the UD administration and fan base have the whole thing dominate their thinking. As opposed to just embracing who we are, which would produce much better result. In fact, there is a very real notion, that a school doesn't always get punished for not being able to schedule up, if in fact it appears power programs refuse to schedule you.

I shouldn't make you folks made at me, but why do you suffer from this "I hate my own conference complex?" Its embarrassing!



In that case if we don't want the opportunity of a great rival because we may get beat, lets move on down to Division 3. We can play Sinclair and dominate every year.

I've been to the Duq game every year for 10 years, there's more flyers fans than duq fans, no energy, nothing that makes a rivalry great.
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Old 01-09-2019, 06:18 PM
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So I pick up my remote control to see what channel our Flyers are on tonight for our epic showdown in a high school gym. No luck

So I go to Dayton Flyers.com and find out this is the first of 6 games this season with no TV listed.

Back to the Remote and TV lineup for tonight, at 7 PM you can catch two Big East games and one AAC game live on national TV.

Tell me again how great the A-10 is!
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  #993  
Old 01-09-2019, 07:09 PM
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ESPN has been showing that the game is going to be on ESPN+ all week. We will see if they actually have it or if it is an error.


http://www.espn.com/watch?id=8e45ca7...spn:ncb:gamehq
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Old 01-09-2019, 07:45 PM
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It’s on espn+
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Old 01-09-2019, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerBob View Post
It’s on espn+
Thanks. Would be nice if Daytonflyers.com listed that at normal TV listing spot on the website.

I still stand by my griping above, the other conferences are on "free" TV tonight
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  #996  
Old 02-03-2019, 06:13 PM
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A twitter thread I wrote about St. Louis versus Dayton if the Big East expands to 11 teams.

https://twitter.com/TomEggemeier/sta...56969386754048
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Old 02-03-2019, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
A twitter thread I wrote about St. Louis versus Dayton if the Big East expands to 11 teams.

https://twitter.com/TomEggemeier/sta...56969386754048
Do we know when the negotiations for the Big East's new TV contract are supposed to be? I suspect going to 11 will revolve around this

I think you're take is dead on the money and well reasoned. I tend to think they'll go to 11 too but I get flack in here for being a conspiracy theorist.

not directed at you but I think people get really lost in this TV market size or "bringing in a new market". That's a consideration for power conference network not for the 11th team that's playing 10-15 games of one sport on FS1

I think there's a major sunk cost in the football program and the carrot of another of another round of P5 realignment that'll keep football going for UConn
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Old 02-03-2019, 07:21 PM
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I think Dayton in or out boils down to three things not related to market size or track record:

1) Jesuits vs. Marianist.

2) How much weight Creighton carries in wanting a closer rival/travel partner.

3) Potential Xavier blackball.

Funny thing is, the Dayton/Xavier games would have immediate cache as the league’s top rivalry and probably generate the largest viewership. But does Xavier want to give up any smidgen of competitive edge in recruiting or publicity? The two schools were joined at the hip under previous administrations, but that seems to have gone by the wayside. Open minds can see that competition has never been a big issue in the ACC with UNC, NC State and Duke. But the key words there are “open minds.”

My guess is No. 3 is the biggest hurdle, and because of that, it’s unlikely we ever get in ... though there’s nothing wrong with hope. And I say that because on paper, we’re EASILY the most logical fit.

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Old 02-03-2019, 07:32 PM
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Our focus...

Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
I think Dayton in or out boils down to three things not related to market size or track record:

1) Jesuits vs. Marianist.

2) How much weight Creighton carries in wanting a closer rival/travel partner.

3) Potential Xavier blackball.

Funny thing is, the Dayton/Xavier games would have immediate cache as the league’s top rivalry and probably generate the largest viewership. But does Xavier want to give up any smidgen of competitive edge in recruiting or publicity? The two schools were joined at the hip under previous administrations, but that seems to have gone by the wayside. Open minds can see that competition has never been a big issue in the ACC with UNC, NC State and Duke. But the key words there are “open minds.”

My guess is No. 3 is the biggest hurdle, and because of that, it’s unlikely we ever get in ... though there’s nothing wrong with hope. And I sat that because on paper, we’re EASILY the most logical fit.
Butler proved that conference affiliation is far less important than winning. UD does not exactly romp through the A10. The focus...the goal...is getting into the NCAA tournament regularly and winning when we get there.

Dayton's OOC schedule and the A10 provide more that enough opportunity to achieve that goal so long as we win.

It's about winning!
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Old 02-03-2019, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Butler proved that conference affiliation is far less important than winning. UD does not exactly romp through the A10. The focus...the goal...is getting into the NCAA tournament regularly and winning when we get there.

Dayton's OOC schedule and the A10 provide more that enough opportunity to achieve that goal so long as we win.

It's about winning!
Winning is huge, but we clearly have the edge there over St. Louis by almost any barometer.
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