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02-02-2014, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Sea Bass
Mick never liked recruiting and the game changed after the 60s. Every once in a while he would fall into some really good player and parlay that into some success but his teams were never deep and lacked athleticism. I remember during his last season I asked Haus what was going on he told me Mick could not convince them that there were not playing hard ... in other words they had tuned him out.
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My understanding is that DD would not hire an assistant because he was a good recruiter, thought it was a waste. If he had hired a great recruiter DD would have been here for many more years.
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02-02-2014, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67
"We" didn't fire Donoher. The stupid UD administration did- and since then, we've been a cursed university. I was loudly against the idiotic DD firing in1989. That just shows you how stupid this university is. IMO, that single fact scared off a good many decent coaches in 1989 which is why somebody convinced Frericks to hire a virtual unknown in JOB. And UD has struggled ever since. Maybe what ought to happen, to appease the basketball gods, is to publicly acknowledge the stupidity of that firing in 1989 and hope the curse is released...personally I'm sick of underperforming.
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You wouldn't fire a coach who went 13-15, 13-18, and 12-17 and, according to reports, didn't like to recruit??? The mistake was not firing Donoher, it was hiring JOB (and I loved Donoher, but he had "lost it"). My understanding was that he was told to hire a/some new assistant(s) who were good recruiters, and he refused to do it. He should have simply "retired" instead of making his best friend fire him.
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02-02-2014, 10:53 AM
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I find this discussion fascinating, partly because I heard only tiny bits and pieces of what was going on as I was out of town at the time and there was no internet to hear what folks were saying. But I did hear some things and formed some opinions none the less.
I remember at the time that I sadly concluded that the times had passed DD by and that a change was necessary. However I also heard rumblings that the to be Sr class had a lot to do with the dismissal and I felt they had betrayed DD. I didn't hear any one singled out however. For years though I heard very little on the messageboards backing up that opinion, so it's interesting to hear that others had the same impression.
I was also aware of the tragedy of of Coach DD's son passing away. I had heard the word AIDS mentioned by my sister, who was a classmate of DD's son, but that was something that wasn't mentioned publicly at the time or discussed in "polite" company. But whatever the reason, DD was surely going through hell.
Finally, for all the talk about the times passing DD by, it seems to me the finger could be pointed at the entire athletic department. Aside from Men's BB and a football teams competing against tiny and underfunded DIII schools, the programs were in shambles. Yet even with the golden goose mens BB program, bad decisions and lack of foresight were quite common well before DD got forced out. I don't think I need to go over the litany of mistakes, they have all been expressed here numerous times as folks discuss what went wrong with UD's once powerful program. I had a (different) sister working for UD at the time and she told me the joke around campus was that UD's recruiting budget consisted of an RTA bus pass for DD. I have also heard the mordant opinion that the administration thought support for basketball was ensuring that the programs and tickets got sent to the printer in a timely manner. While that is surely an exaggeration, I think it does correctly reflect a "why should we do anything different" outlook by those in charge.
At any rate, while it may be true that it was past DD's time, I believe that the entire administration was at fault and in no way should DD bear all the blame. The die was cast well before then.
Last edited by cintibUD; 02-02-2014 at 11:02 AM..
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02-02-2014, 02:04 PM
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Probably all true,...
Originally Posted by cintibUD
I find this discussion fascinating, partly because I heard only tiny bits and pieces of what was going on as I was out of town at the time and there was no internet to hear what folks were saying. But I did hear some things and formed some opinions none the less.
I remember at the time that I sadly concluded that the times had passed DD by and that a change was necessary. However I also heard rumblings that the to be Sr class had a lot to do with the dismissal and I felt they had betrayed DD. I didn't hear any one singled out however. For years though I heard very little on the messageboards backing up that opinion, so it's interesting to hear that others had the same impression.
I was also aware of the tragedy of of Coach DD's son passing away. I had heard the word AIDS mentioned by my sister, who was a classmate of DD's son, but that was something that wasn't mentioned publicly at the time or discussed in "polite" company. But whatever the reason, DD was surely going through hell.
Finally, for all the talk about the times passing DD by, it seems to me the finger could be pointed at the entire athletic department. Aside from Men's BB and a football teams competing against tiny and underfunded DIII schools, the programs were in shambles. Yet even with the golden goose mens BB program, bad decisions and lack of foresight were quite common well before DD got forced out. I don't think I need to go over the litany of mistakes, they have all been expressed here numerous times as folks discuss what went wrong with UD's once powerful program. I had a (different) sister working for UD at the time and she told me the joke around campus was that UD's recruiting budget consisted of an RTA bus pass for DD. I have also heard the mordant opinion that the administration thought support for basketball was ensuring that the programs and tickets got sent to the printer in a timely manner. While that is surely an exaggeration, I think it does correctly reflect a "why should we do anything different" outlook by those in charge.
At any rate, while it may be true that it was past DD's time, I believe that the entire administration was at fault and in no way should DD bear all the blame. The die was cast well before then.
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But, I would add that UD's approach to life was all encompassing...not limited to men's BB.
Love him. like him, hate him,.....Dan Curran kicked our U up more than a notch or two. UD today is an entirely different place than it was 10+ years ago. Having said that....it's not like DC to sit around and watch the continued futility of the men's BB program. Absent a turn around over the next several weeks, I expect to see changes.
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02-02-2014, 03:10 PM
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Major General
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Originally Posted by cintibUD
I find this discussion fascinating, partly because I heard only tiny bits and pieces of what was going on as I was out of town at the time and there was no internet to hear what folks were saying. But I did hear some things and formed some opinions none the less.
I remember at the time that I sadly concluded that the times had passed DD by and that a change was necessary. However I also heard rumblings that the to be Sr class had a lot to do with the dismissal and I felt they had betrayed DD. I didn't hear any one singled out however. For years though I heard very little on the messageboards backing up that opinion, so it's interesting to hear that others had the same impression.
I was also aware of the tragedy of of Coach DD's son passing away. I had heard the word AIDS mentioned by my sister, who was a classmate of DD's son, but that was something that wasn't mentioned publicly at the time or discussed in "polite" company. But whatever the reason, DD was surely going through hell.
Finally, for all the talk about the times passing DD by, it seems to me the finger could be pointed at the entire athletic department. Aside from Men's BB and a football teams competing against tiny and underfunded DIII schools, the programs were in shambles. Yet even with the golden goose mens BB program, bad decisions and lack of foresight were quite common well before DD got forced out. I don't think I need to go over the litany of mistakes, they have all been expressed here numerous times as folks discuss what went wrong with UD's once powerful program. I had a (different) sister working for UD at the time and she told me the joke around campus was that UD's recruiting budget consisted of an RTA bus pass for DD. I have also heard the mordant opinion that the administration thought support for basketball was ensuring that the programs and tickets got sent to the printer in a timely manner. While that is surely an exaggeration, I think it does correctly reflect a "why should we do anything different" outlook by those in charge.
At any rate, while it may be true that it was past DD's time, I believe that the entire administration was at fault and in no way should DD bear all the blame. The die was cast well before then.
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Donoher took the 83-84 team and 84-85 team to the NCAA's at a time when doing so was considerably more difficult than it is today. And so the consensus opinion is that in 3 short year after that fact, "the game passed him by"? Seriously? Wow. Well, in that case I guess you could say the same about BG; after all, his last NCAA appearance was 2008-2009 and while the NIT's were nice.....his last 3 years at GT have been less than .500 ball, similar to Donoher's last 3 years. Correct? The game has passed BG by....
The progression of coaching at UD since DD has shown to me that A) they surely buy now realize how cheap they got DD for in terms of salary B) How cheap a budget they put on the mens BB program in general then and ever since C) they don't recognize coaching talent when they see it or understand what it takes to be successful at major college level...
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02-02-2014, 03:35 PM
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Donoher went TEN (10) years between NCAA appearances (1974-1984). If any coach did that today we would all go crazy. Donoher had TWO (2) NCAA appearances in his last fifteen years. A coach today would be long gone before that happened. I heard rumblings in the late 70's that some big boosters and ex-players already were getting restless. We have had this discussion before, but I would argue that it wasn't any more difficult to make the field then than it is now, possibly even easier. They were only 18-10 in 83-84 and 19-9 in 84-85, and in 1985 the field was 64 teams. Also, before 1980 only two teams from any conference could make the field, making it easier for independents. Prior to 1975 only the conference champion could make the field. In any case, I would argue that it certainly wasn't "considerably more difficult" to make the field back then. And if BG or Archie went 13-15, 13-18, and 12-17 in three consecutive years I would be afraid to even read this board. I'm not bashing Donoher, I liked him, but some people seem to think he accomplished much more than he did, especially after 1975.
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02-02-2014, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43
Myself and DNutz had a coach in HS that was a "cusser". Pretty colorful a majority of the time when things weren't going well, and used for emphasis when things were going well. The big difference, is that it was directed at what a player did, and not at the player as a person. You might get yanked from a game and he may say "What the F are you doing out there?"..But there was never a "You F'n suck" or "F you"...My favorite was usually directed at one of our less than stellar PG's which was, "You are running around here like a three peckered billy goat, ****ing all over the floor".
My college coach was not a cusser, and most likely, if observed by the higher up's at the University swearing in an inappropriate manner, would have been dealt with by the AD. It wasn't accepted. Players did, and if you weren't careful, you may end up on a baseline if your mouth got out of hand as a player. But we also had grooming standards that included clean shaven, you could only wear issued uniform items such as the team shoe, issued socks, no shirts under jerseys...but that was accepted and that was how the program was ran. Players weren't getting in trouble off the court, because if you were a problem, you most likely couldn't deal with the standards of the coach.
Archie will act, and has shown, that he will act in a manner that is allowed and seen as acceptable by his bosses and fans. I have heard from mid level staff comments regarding his conduct on the sideline and how it is inappropriate. I sit the length of the court from the bench so I can't hear, but those that tell me about his mouth sit about 20 feet down from the bench. Shaka Smart is animated, jumping around, and yelling all game. That isn't the problem. The problem is when you have no direction, aren't just excited to be part of the game, and are yelling because you think it makes you more of an effective leader. Effective leaders don't sit up there and scream to scream...If a guy needs his rear jumped in, you do it...but you also build the guy back up. Maybe the actions of the coach have to do with a lack of confidence in the players, knowing that if yous screwed up, you were going to get a chewing. I played for a coach one time that I could see guys clam up when they got screamed at, and were more likely to make errors upon their return to the floor. You had to be tough mentally. The players aren't responding to AM and AM needs to figure out how to do that without looking like an asshat on the sidelines.
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I don't mind a few well chosen f bombs, that the team excited and pumped. Directing it right at some one, and makin it personal is another thing.
Sounds like Arch is developing a rep , perhaps in a negative fashion.
Good stories Shocka.
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02-02-2014, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67
Donoher took the 83-84 team and 84-85 team to the NCAA's at a time when doing so was considerably more difficult than it is today. And so the consensus opinion is that in 3 short year after that fact, "the game passed him by"? Seriously? Wow. Well, in that case I guess you could say the same about BG; after all, his last NCAA appearance was 2008-2009 and while the NIT's were nice.....his last 3 years at GT have been less than .500 ball, similar to Donoher's last 3 years. Correct? The game has passed BG by....
The progression of coaching at UD since DD has shown to me that A) they surely buy now realize how cheap they got DD for in terms of salary B) How cheap a budget they put on the mens BB program in general then and ever since C) they don't recognize coaching talent when they see it or understand what it takes to be successful at major college level...
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Don't think anyone is saying he didnt' know x's and o's and defense.
His teams had solid fundamentals, esp the 83-85 teams. And probably some teams in the 60's and 70's. However recruiting out of state, listening to the word on the street about different recruits coupla years ahead of time, and working that entire circuit is not something Coach Donoher was good at.
In the late 80's the entire AAU circuit was changing and becoming powerful, the change in 3 point shooting dramatically modified the games' approach on offense and other changes that I don't think Coach Donoher was tuned into as well as necessary.
I loved Coach D. He was a rock, and remains a Legend. We were quite lucky to have him with us for such a long stretch.
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02-02-2014, 04:39 PM
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A few more comments about DD.
1) Negele Knight was hurt his last two years under DD. That was obvious that he was a different player his senior season.
2) The knock I heard was recruiting, but he was until recently the last UD coach to put any player in the NBA. The dry spell after Negele Knight was 20 years!
3) UD's failure to join a national TV network was a major mistake. It showed that UD was at a disadvantage when it came to recruiting. I think the entire athletic department fell behind.
4) First thing JOB did was require UD to invest heavily in athletic facilities etc. Odd that you will do that for a new unproven coach but not your existing coach.
5) DD was very slow to embrace the 3 point shot. Ironically so was Bobby Knight , until Steve Alford came along.
Finally, DD is a class act. Who helps with fund raisers, support etc. after they fire you? They don't make class like that often!!
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02-02-2014, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyer 86
Don't think anyone is saying he didnt' know x's and o's and defense.
His teams had solid fundamentals, esp the 83-85 teams. And probably some teams in the 60's and 70's. However recruiting out of state, listening to the word on the street about different recruits coupla years ahead of time, and working that entire circuit is not something Coach Donoher was good at.
In the late 80's the entire AAU circuit was changing and becoming powerful, the change in 3 point shooting dramatically modified the games' approach on offense and other changes that I don't think Coach Donoher was tuned into as well as necessary.
I loved Coach D. He was a rock, and remains a Legend. We were quite lucky to have him with us for such a long stretch.
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ALL of Donohers teams had the fundementals. He "didn't recruit well" because he was given a zero budget to do so. This had nothing to do with the AAU or any other non-sense. UD fired a legend basketball coach because somebody thought the grass was greener elsewhere. Coach JOB showed us the other grass huh?
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02-02-2014, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan
Donoher went TEN (10) years between NCAA appearances (1974-1984). If any coach did that today we would all go crazy. Donoher had TWO (2) NCAA appearances in his last fifteen years.
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...but this wasn't just any ol' coach: This was the only coach in UD history to take the team to the national championship game, nevermind the only coach to take UD to the Elite Eight just five years prior to his firing. This was the longtime coach who was selected by Bob Knight to help coach the 1984 Olympic team. Perhaps a little more patience and respect is warranted in that situation...
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02-02-2014, 10:46 PM
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He got as much time as he did due to the patience and respect, not in spite of it.
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Hot shooting hides a multitude of sins.
Make everyone else's "one day" your "day one".
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02-02-2014, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer
...but this wasn't just any ol' coach: This was the only coach in UD history to take the team to the national championship game, nevermind the only coach to take UD to the Elite Eight just five years prior to his firing. This was the longtime coach who was selected by Bob Knight to help coach the 1984 Olympic team. Perhaps a little more patience and respect is warranted in that situation...
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Good point, really is. But at the time, I think most didn't like the thought of suffering through 7 or 8 bad seasons in a row just to have a possible cinderella run one season and than back to the bottom. It was time to see if we could become a consistent NCAA team and still hope for Cinderella runs that took us far into the tourny. Obviously it hasn't happened, but that's because of the coaches we chose to follow, not because DD was getting the most out of what the UD flyers could possibly get.
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03-02-2014, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach
So he doesn't have to tell his next, and every employer there-after, that he was fired from his last job. At this point, what's he going to tell them anyway?..."How good I did at Dayton!"
If there was any chance his tenure was about to get better and work itself out, then you might be right, but there is no chance of that whatsoever. Not a chance!
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Is there still "no chance...whatsoever. Not a chance!" that AM's tenure gets better???
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