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  #401  
Old 05-20-2017, 10:35 PM
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Cover up....

Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
.......This is an "investigation" with no clear genesis or apparent crime to investigate. It's a politically motivated, "let's investigate, and hope that something turns up." In the meantime, the liberal press will throw any unsubstantiated rumor at the wall and see what sticks.
Fudd, you are correct and not the only one to point this out, i.e., the appearance of a cover up without a crime. But, since such efforts have been made to "cover up" something, doesn't that simply suggest a cover up of an unknown crime?

People don't put themselves in such jeopardy, going to such pains, to conceal something that's legal and above board, do they? Another possibility is covering up something that, while not at all a crime, would be entirely unacceptable and inappropriate for a president to be involved in.
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  #402  
Old 05-20-2017, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Fudd, you are correct and not the only one to point this out, i.e., the appearance of a cover up without a crime. But, since such efforts have been made to "cover up" something, doesn't that simply suggest a cover up of an unknown crime?

People don't put themselves in such jeopardy, going to such pains, to conceal something that's legal and above board, do they? Another possibility is covering up something that, while not at all a crime, would be entirely unacceptable and inappropriate for a president to be involved in.
Benghazi?
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Old 05-20-2017, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Fudd, you are correct and not the only one to point this out, i.e., the appearance of a cover up without a crime. But, since such efforts have been made to "cover up" something, doesn't that simply suggest a cover up of an unknown crime?

People don't put themselves in such jeopardy, going to such pains, to conceal something that's legal and above board, do they? Another possibility is covering up something that, while not at all a crime, would be entirely unacceptable and inappropriate for a president to be involved in.
Cover up? Of what? How can there be a cover-up when even the accusers cannot define the crime?

The absurdity of this situation will someday be appreciated by history.
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  #404  
Old 05-21-2017, 08:42 AM
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Cover up

Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
Cover up? Of what? How can there be a cover-up when even the accusers cannot define the crime?
The absurdity of this situation will someday be appreciated by history.
Fudd, when Mueller completes his investigation I hope you'll look back and re-read statements like the one you made.

Consider, please:

1) Crime: There is no difficulty defining possible crimes. But so long as a cover up is effective it's not possible to specify what the crimes were,... specifically.

2) Doesn't need to be a crime: There are many things a president can be involved it that while not crimes are impermissible for a president.

That's why investigations are in progress. Do you think that after Mueller is finished his bottom line conclusion is going to be.... "Found nothing out of the ordinary folks, no crimes, no improprieties whatsoever,....back to work everyone".

I'm a bit hazy re the following, but I'll try to remember: When Kushner, I believe, was completing the forms required for his top secret security clearance there were major omissions re foreign connections....Russian, I think,...These omissions were discovered over time and were explained as unintentional oversights, slip ups, etc. What? I have gone through that security process myself....no one makes "slip ups" like that. It's inconceivable! And, of course, in Kushner's case his lawyers were involved in completing the forms. The omissions were a deliberate attempt to conceal information vital to the process...a crime.

Every time you turn around there is something like this involving some key person in Trump's inner circle. The more time passes the deeper the Flynn morass becomes. The key word that best describes all this stuff is "concealment". That can involved illegalities or unacceptable improprieties. Whatever, the president's camp has gone out of its way to cover up these things. That's what has led us to Mueller.
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  #405  
Old 05-21-2017, 11:18 AM
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Xubrew, it appears that the GOP does not want to ignore Democratic complaints. Does this explanation satisfy you?



http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-n...518-story.html


According to Durbin, Rosenstein said he named Mueller to “make certain the American people thought this would be handled fairly and justly.”
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  #406  
Old 05-21-2017, 12:36 PM
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If there was absolutely nothing to be concerned about he would not appoint a special counsel. There is too much smoke not to. From Page to Manafort to Flynn to Kushner there are things to investigate. Firing Comey in the midst of that, probably in frustration about loyalty, narcissism and outsized sense of presidential power was incredibly stupid. Especially with a constantly changing story as to why and comments to the Russians, regardless the reasons.

Trump just can't help shooting himself in the head. The use of investigations for political purposes is a time honored tradition. There is as much here as any since Watergate. And potentially as much as Watergate if Trump's actions rise to the level of obstruction. That's why the independent counsel. Expecting evidence before the investigation would be virtually unprecedented. The investigation isn't the prosecution
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  #407  
Old 05-21-2017, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
If there was absolutely nothing to be concerned about he would not appoint a special counsel. There is too much smoke not to.
You do not know that, that is pure speculation.
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  #408  
Old 05-21-2017, 03:49 PM
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I don't know what? His exact motivations? Of course not.

A lot of smoke - any objective person not kissing Trump's arse recognizes they need an independent counsel. You cant have the POTUS trot out his administration to say one thing, then come back and say he fired Comey with the Russian thing on his mind, have reports of Comey memos saying Trump asked for a pledge of loyalty (something very Trump-like), have multiple unreported contacts with his aides with the Russians (something you don't forget in security clearance requests), have the FBI investigation appear to have a criminal element to and have a target in the White House and have FinCen records subpoenaed by Congress without an independent counsel. Not once the POTUS may have already crossed the line with respect to independence of Justice.

So yes, just like you have no idea if the appointment is just to appease Dems I don't know if Roaensteins motivations were just to appease Dems. But I definitely suspect they weren't. And I think the public would have little faith in the objectivity of a justice department investigation at this point.
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  #409  
Old 05-21-2017, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Mich Flyer View Post
We know nothing. It is all made up. Looks to me like Seth Rich, a Democrat, is behing the WikiLeaks. It was Comey, with Obama's "suggestion", that let criminal Hillary off the hook. It is an obvious injustice. Hillary was made above the law. The Democrats and never Trumpers are doing all they can make up to destroy Trump.
Your first sentence refutes your second.
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  #410  
Old 05-21-2017, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
That's a new one. What are you talking about? He was lining his pockets with billions before his Presidency. He doesn't need political power to make himself rich.

This is an "investigation" with no clear genesis or apparent crime to investigate. It's a politically motivated, "let's investigate, and hope that something turns up." In the meantime, the liberal press will throw any unsubstantiated rumor at the wall and see what sticks.
What's new about it. Even Joni Ernst has said much the same thing a couple months ago. She is neither left wing media, a Dem or part of the establishment that doesn't want their power challenges. You are smarter than this Fudd. you don't have to kneel before the almighty Trump. Willingness to excuse anything in the name of partisanship will be the ruin of this country.
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  #411  
Old 05-21-2017, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
And I think the public would have little faith in the objectivity of a justice department investigation at this point.
Perhaps, but that would still be a step up from the public's faith in a justice department headed by Eric "Fast and Furious" Holder or Loretta "Phoenix Tarmac" Lynch.
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  #412  
Old 05-21-2017, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
Your first sentence refutes your second.
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We know nothing. I said it looks like Seth Davis was behind the leaks to WikiLeaks.

An FBI forensic report of Rich's computer --*generated within 96 hours after Rich's murder -- showed he made contact with WikiLeaks through Gavin MacFadyen, a now-deceased American investigative reporter, documentary filmmaker, and director of WikiLeaks who was living in London at the time, the federal source told Fox News.

The federal investigator, who requested anonymity, said 44,053 emails and 17,761 attachments between Democratic National Committee leaders, spanning from January 2015 through late May 2016, were transferred from Rich to MacFadyen before May 21.

“I have seen and read the emails between Seth Rich and WikiLeaks,” the federal investigator told Fox News, confirming the MacFadyen connection. He said the emails are in possession of the FBI, while the stalled case is in the hands of the Washington Police Department.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...ator-says.html

I say we know nothing because a definitive verdict has not been agreed upon.
There is no proof Trump had anything to do with the leaks to WikiLeaks. In fact, the evidence so shows he had nothing to do with it, and it had nothing to do with the Russians.
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  #413  
Old 05-21-2017, 07:40 PM
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Your second sentence was "it's all made up". You don't know that any more than people who believe it is not made up.

The Russian investigation is about more than the source of Wikileaks. Rich could be the source and there could still be illegal matters between the Trump administration and the Russians.

Both Flynn and Kushner could be charged with criminal offenses and have nothing to do with Wikileaks's. Those charges could lead to other issues with Trump. That's why there should be an independent counsel.

There is no credible evidence beyond conspiracy theory fake news sites that Rich is the Wikileaks source. Out of these sites, and those on the left, are going to be embarrassed big league, much like Infowars who is beginning to be forced to retract much of their reporting.
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  #414  
Old 05-21-2017, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
Your second sentence was "it's all made up". You don't know that any more than people who believe it is not made up.
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So what do we know. Nothing. Some believe it is all made up. Some believe it is not made up. Where is the proof? The burden is on proving there is collusion. Till something is proven to me, the talk of collusion is all smoke and talk.
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  #415  
Old 05-21-2017, 10:09 PM
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http://freebeacon.com/national-secur...p-camp-russia/

Even Senator Dinosaur Feinstein says no evidence of collusion, so lets make some up
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  #416  
Old 05-21-2017, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
Your second sentence was "it's all made up". You don't know that any more than people who believe it is not made up.

The Russian investigation is about more than the source of Wikileaks. Rich could be the source and there could still be illegal matters between the Trump administration and the Russians.

Both Flynn and Kushner could be charged with criminal offenses and have nothing to do with Wikileaks's. Those charges could lead to other issues with Trump. That's why there should be an independent counsel.

There is no credible evidence beyond conspiracy theory fake news sites that Rich is the Wikileaks source. Out of these sites, and those on the left, are going to be embarrassed big league, much like Infowars who is beginning to be forced to retract much of their reporting.
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Could, might, maybe. What kind of actual evidence is there, after months of investigation, that leads anyone to believe that we need another investigation? Every time that someone from one of the current investigations is interviewed, they say that there is no evidence of collusion. We need another investigation because the liberals are upset that Trump was elected President? That is what it sounds like to me.

"Let us investigate, so that we can find some kind of crime. There just has to be something there that we can nail him on."

This whole thing started as political cover for Hillary because she was being exposed in all of her campaign lies through her own and the DNC's e-mails. She could not deny the truth of Wikileaks and the investigation into her disappearing e-mails, so she needed to frame it as a Russian plot with Trump. It's political fiction. Podesta gave up his password to hackers and she had all kinds of bad stuff going on with her illegal secret server in order to hide her nefarious activity as Sec of State.

It's a total misdirection, so that the conversation would shift away from all of the laws that she broke and the mysterious immunity and allowed destruction of evidence by the FBI.
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  #417  
Old 05-21-2017, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
Could, might, maybe. What kind of actual evidence is there, after months of investigation, that leads anyone to believe that we need another investigation? Every time that someone from one of the current investigations is interviewed, they say that there is no evidence of collusion. We need another investigation because the liberals are upset that Trump was elected President? That is what it sounds like to me.

This whole thing started as political cover for Hillary because she was being exposed in all of her campaign lies through her own and the DNC's e-mails. She could not deny the truth of Wikileaks and the investigation into her disappearing e-mails, so she needed to frame it as a Russian plot with Trump. It's political fiction. Podesta gave up his password to hackers and she had all kinds of bad stuff going on with her illegal secret server in order to hide her nefarious activity as Sec of State.

It's a total misdirection, so that the conversation would shift away from all of the laws that she broke and the mysterious immunity and allowed destruction of evidence by the FBI.
Yes, that's pretty much it.
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:59 PM
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Imagine if Trump's e-mails were subpoenaed and he decided to have his people destroy them instead of turn them over. Do you guys think that he could get away with that? Would the press just gloss it over as unimportant? Would the government agency that demanded those e-mails just let it slide?
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  #419  
Old Yesterday, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
Could, might, maybe. What kind of actual evidence is there, after months of investigation, that leads anyone to believe that we need another investigation? Every time that someone from one of the current investigations is interviewed, they say that there is no evidence of collusion. We need another investigation because the liberals are upset that Trump was elected President? That is what it sounds like to me.

"Let us investigate, so that we can find some kind of crime. There just has to be something there that we can nail him on."

This whole thing started as political cover for Hillary because she was being exposed in all of her campaign lies through her own and the DNC's e-mails. She could not deny the truth of Wikileaks and the investigation into her disappearing e-mails, so she needed to frame it as a Russian plot with Trump. It's political fiction. Podesta gave up his password to hackers and she had all kinds of bad stuff going on with her illegal secret server in order to hide her nefarious activity as Sec of State.

It's a total misdirection, so that the conversation would shift away from all of the laws that she broke and the mysterious immunity and allowed destruction of evidence by the FBI.
What investigation are you talking about?? Which one is being led by liberals??

You mention months of investigations. It is not uncommon for investigations to take years, and for those who are doing the investigating to be very dismissive in their comments.

But, the real point I'm trying to make is this. You're absolutely right about there currently being no proof. Anyone who jumps to conclusions is making a mistake. Having said that, I think anyone who is not suspicious of anything is a complete fool. To use a sports analogy, if a group of players walk into the AD's office and say that they feel the coach is shaving points, and point out how he makes substitutions at certain points and tells them that they don't need to try and score anymore, at that moment in time there is no proof of anything. It's only could, might, and maybe. But you'd have to be a complete imbecile to just dismiss it and say "Well, it's all heresay. There's no proof." That is what a lot of Trump supporters are doing.

I can see dismissing any claims and investigations made by the liberals. But, exactly which ones are those?? His own party is who is taking the lead here. They are the ones that continue to be persistent on this. And....YOU'RE NOT EVEN SUSPICIOUS??

If it were actually the liberals, then I could see your point. But...it's not. And I agree that it is foolish to jump to conclusions, but I feel that works both ways. If you've already concluded that there is nothing to see here, then that is every bit as foolish as concluding that there definitely was collusion.

If you're dismissing all this simply because you think that the liberals are behind it all, then your reason for dismissing it is categorically false. The Republicans control pretty much everything, including these investigations.

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Old Yesterday, 02:17 PM
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Those dismissing are every bit the fool as those who have concluded that everything is proven. The reason for an investigation is to determine if something untoward occurred. If there are suspicions you investigate, not once there is proof. If there is proof you pursue charges or other actions.

And there is plenty of suspicious behavior and actions - including Flynn likely taking the fifth.

And the investigations are about many things other than whether there was collusion.


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  #421  
Old Yesterday, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
What investigation are you talking about?? Which one is being led by liberals??

You mention months of investigations. It is not uncommon for investigations to take years, and for those who are doing the investigating to be very dismissive in their comments.

But, the real point I'm trying to make is this. You're absolutely right about there currently being no proof. Anyone who jumps to conclusions is making a mistake. Having said that, I think anyone who is not suspicious of anything is a complete fool. To use a sports analogy, if a group of players walk into the AD's office and say that they feel the coach is shaving points, and point out how he makes substitutions at certain points and tells them that they don't need to try and score anymore, at that moment in time there is no proof of anything. It's only could, might, and maybe. But you'd have to be a complete imbecile to just dismiss it and say "Well, it's all heresay. There's no proof." That is what a lot of Trump supporters are doing.

I can see dismissing any claims and investigations made by the liberals. But, exactly which ones are those?? His own party is who is taking the lead here. They are the ones that continue to be persistent on this. And....YOU'RE NOT EVEN SUSPICIOUS??

If it were actually the liberals, then I could see your point. But...it's not. And I agree that it is foolish to jump to conclusions, but I feel that works both ways. If you've already concluded that there is nothing to see here, then that is every bit as foolish as concluding that there definitely was collusion.

If you're dismissing all this simply because you think that the liberals are behind it all, then your reason for dismissing it is categorically false. The Republicans control pretty much everything, including these investigations.
See my post #405...


http://www.udpride.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=405

It is just as likely IMO that they want to appease the Dems. No one knows exactly why a special counsel was appointed.

The official WH explanation for the appointment of a SC: appease the Dems.
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Old Yesterday, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
See my post #405...


http://www.udpride.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=405

It is just as likely IMO that they want to appease the Dems. No one knows exactly why a special counsel was appointed.

The official WH explanation for the appointment of a SC: appease the Dems.
I suppose that's possible. But, until now any desire from the GOP to appease the Dems has been noticeably lacking.
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Old Yesterday, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
But, until now any desire from the GOP to appease the Dems has been noticeably lacking.
How about the budget deal, that was just passed, where Trump was trashed for caving into Democratic demands?
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Old Yesterday, 03:48 PM
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It may be an attempt to appease the Dems, but I doubt it. The Dems will carry on this con game as long as Trump is in office. They know there is nothing there, but it is doing its job of focusing the media on nonsense, instead of what Trump is doing and accomplishing. And by the way, be ready for the same garbage once the next Democrat is elected president. The only difference will be a lot less media coverage. It is the new politics, so get used to it.
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Old Yesterday, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
Those dismissing are every bit the fool as those who have concluded that everything is proven. The reason for an investigation is to determine if something untoward occurred.
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Doug, if this investigation is aimed at finding out if Trump obstructed justice by impeding the FBI investigation, that has already been addressed by Comey and McCabe. I think that we can dismiss it based on their testimony that it never took place.

So, what is the purpose of the investigation again?
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Old Yesterday, 04:59 PM
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It's about much more than obstruction. And obstruction of justice charges don't have to come only after the investigation is obstructed. Obstruction statutes are the intent to obstruct. Trump's actions could have risen to a level effectively telling Comey to shut it down, and Comey said no and told the FBI to carry on. Ergo McCabe says the investigation was not affected, but Trump could have committed obstruction.

Nobody has addressed the memos Comey wrote. McCabe may or may not be privy to any of the details relating to Comeys firing or past interactions with Trump.

The special counsel was put in place by Rosenstein, who was appointed by Trump. Not the Democrats.

The investigations in the House and Senate include Russian interference through Wikileaks, fake news in social media, undisclosed meetings between. trump officials and Russian agents (of which 18 have been documented), potential violatiins of financial crimes (likely Page, Manafort and Kushner as targets), other potential violations of law by Flynn, if there was any collusion by Trump or his campaign aides (likely Flynn, Page, Manafort), and possible obstruction.

The purpose of investigations is to determine what happened, how can it be prevented in future, and if any violations of law occurred. All of these investigations are initiated and led by Republicans. Not Democrats. Many Republicans have publicly stated they see things as problematic.

I think there is more than enough smoke to conduct the investigations. The person to blame for them is Trump.

And this is all self inflicted.

If the only thing that comes out of these is Flynn is charged or cleared of criminal charges the investigations were warranted.
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Old Yesterday, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
How about the budget deal, that was just passed, where Trump was trashed for caving into Democratic demands?
Budget deals happen all the time because they have to or you have shut down. Same with debt limits.

The more telling is tax reform and health care on a party line basis. Turn about doesn't make it right and likely results in equal chance of success.
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Old Yesterday, 08:36 PM
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'Complete panic' at highest levels of DNC over internet hacker Kim Dotcom's claims murdered Democratic aide Seth Rich WA

Self inflicted by the Democrats.

'Complete panic' at highest levels of DNC over internet hacker Kim Dotcom's claims murdered Democratic aide Seth Rich WAS the source of WikiLeaks.

Internet hacker Kim Dotcom took to Twitter over the weekend and said he was involved in releasing the Democratic National Committee's emails to Wikileaks, along with murdered staffer Seth Rich.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ton-storm.html
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Old Yesterday, 09:05 PM
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Rich could be the sole source of the leaks and it may not matter. Trump allegedly reached out to intelligence agencies to state there was no evidence of collusion and to help get Comey to drop his investigation of Flynn. Sure smells like possible obstruction.
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Old Yesterday, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
Rich could be the sole source of the leaks and it may not matter. Trump allegedly reached out to intelligence agencies to state there was no evidence of collusion and to help get Comey to drop his investigation of Flynn. Sure smells like possible obstruction.
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Allegedly. Where is the proof? Who said so - another anonymous source?

It does matter about Rich. It proves the Democratic BS for about a years is just that - BS - cover for Hillary's loss. It makes them BIG liars, doesn't it.
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Old Yesterday, 09:26 PM
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Where is the proof? A tweet from a hacker who likes to stir up things. If course that's credible when it supports your view of the world.

There is a lot more to back up the NSA like contemporaneous memos than a twitter post by a hacker. You also have finCen records that have been subpoenaed, undisclosed meetings in security clearance applications. All of which are potential violations of law. But we shouldn't investigate?

And since much if this is classified we will likely never see whatever evidence there is.

It doesn't matter if Ruch is the leak if Trumo obstructed justice for some reason. Whether it be loyalty to Flynn, or some other unknown reason.

And again, if this was all Dem doing, there would be no congressional investigations and no independent counsel. All of those were initiated by and run by Republicans. Blaming it on Dems is ridiculous. They have zero power.
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Old Yesterday, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
Budget deals happen all the time because they have to or you have shut down. Same with debt limits.
Xubrew asked me to show proof of the GOP lately appeasing the Democrats. I showed such proof.

Trump and the GOP averted a shutdown.

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