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  #1  
Old 06-15-2017, 10:52 AM
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Big Ten discussing 20 game schedule

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...nference-slate

ACC is already moving to a 20 game schedule. Will the SEC & PAC12 follow? Big 12 and Big East can't

If it gets harder and harder to schedule P5 teams does the A10 move to a 20 game schedule?
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:13 AM
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Just a way to make it harder on those not in the p5.
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:15 AM
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With the Big Ten ACC challenge, Gavit Games and other events this is gonna make next to impossible to ever hope to play an ACC or Big 10 team again
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:46 AM
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It would actually make scheduling easier if the A10 goes to 20. You would play 7 teams twice and 6 teams once.

The BE would have to go to 10.
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Old 06-15-2017, 12:37 PM
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Screw em. I say call their bluff and go down to a 14 game schedule and have everyone in the league play complete patsies for the extra 4 games AT HOME. If everyone has twenty + wins it will improve everyone's RPI. Isn't that what the big east did for years and years?

Can you imagine the howling at NCAA tournament time when the A10 gets 6 teams in-- all by virtue of winning top 50 games against each other?
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Old 06-15-2017, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
Screw em. I say call their bluff and go down to a 14 game schedule and have everyone in the league play complete patsies for the extra 4 games AT HOME. If everyone has twenty + wins it will improve everyone's RPI. Isn't that what the big east did for years and years?

Can you imagine the howling at NCAA tournament time when the A10 gets 6 teams in-- all by virtue of winning top 50 games against each other?
Can you expand on this?

I do not see how this would help.

I ran the rpi wizard. I dropped 2 home a10 games, and I dropped 2 a10 away games. The 4 a10 teams that I dropped were all middle of the pack teams for the 2016-2017 season.

I dropped Davidson, SBU, GW, and George Mason.

I added 4 home wins vs. #200 Morehead State.

UD's rpi and sos went from 30 and 71 to 36 and 89.

Your idea seems to make things worse, not better.

Last edited by ud2; 06-15-2017 at 03:27 PM..
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  #7  
Old 06-15-2017, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Can you expand on this?

I do not see how this would help.

I ran the rpi wizard. I dropped 2 home a10 games, and I dropped 2 a10 away games. The 4 a10 teams that I dropped were all middle of the pack teams for the 2016-2017 season.

I dropped Davidson, SBU, GW, and George Mason.

I added 4 home games vs. #200 Morehead State.

UD's rpi and sos went from 30 and 71 to 36 and 89.

Your idea seems to make things worse, not better.
It really comes down to replacing some conference losses with non-conference wins. The more conference games, the more conference losses you are locking in before the season. The best the A10 can do as whole in conference is finish .500.

A10 Win% (2016-17)
Conference: 126-126 (.500)
Non-Conference: 104-66 (.612)
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Old 06-15-2017, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
It really comes down to replacing some conference losses with non-conference wins. The more conference games, the more conference losses you are locking in before the season. The best the A10 can do as whole in conference is finish .500.

A10 Win% (2016-17)
Conference: 126-126 (.500)
Non-Conference: 104-66 (.612)
That makes sense.

I reran it, dropped our 3 a10 losses from this past season: at UMass, at VCU, and at GW, added 3 home wins vs. MSU...rpi 21 sos 82.

The selection committee will then hammer the a10 teams for having weak sos's...they will not let you game the system like that.
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Old 06-15-2017, 05:15 PM
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UD would likely replace conference wins with non-conference wins. I was thinking more of the indirect impact of trading out some of the conference losses of the bottom teams. For example, UMass was 10-3 vs. non-conf and 5-15 vs the A10. Given their W/L%, if you switch out 4 games, you could replace 1-3 vs A10, with 3-1 vs. non-conf. That would take them from 15-18 to 17-16.

The trade off is not getting to play both URI and VCU twice at 14 games, which is a negative. I wasn't the biggest fan of going from 16 to 18 games, but it isn't entirely bad if we are going to be locked in with SLU and DUQ as 2 of the H/H's. I wouldn't want the A10 to follow suit with going to 20 games.
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Old 06-15-2017, 05:34 PM
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UD2... I was saying this partly in jest but there is some truth to it. You can't look at it only improving our W/L recorded but the W/L record of EVERY A10 team.

14 is probably too low but I seriously think the A10 would be better off with a 16 game schedule if the P5 all go to 20 games. It would only work if the Fordham's, LaSalle's and St. Bona's of the A10 wouldn't prostitute themselves out and play two road games with the two extra non con games. If the A10 had a winning record of .800 for the 4 game delta between 20 and 16 (which is why I said play patsies) it could make the A10 look stronger in the RPI.

Going to 18 was probably good because it forced the aforementioned schools to play another home game instead of a "buy loss" to help meet their financial goals. This is one reason the A10 suffers during even good years--when 6-8 schools are competitive--because the dogs of the league lose so many buy games. That doesn't happen in the big east.
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Old 06-15-2017, 05:53 PM
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The RPI boost comes if the bottom half of the conference all starts conference play with wins and a good record. They can have low SOS and not the greatest RPI but then when we beat them we get their wins for the first level of SOS and RPI.

As stated above, once conference play starts the conference can not gain any wins. Each conference game has a winner and a loser. But if Fordham and Duquesne can get 10-12 non con wins then the whole conference gets a boost. The worst thing for UD is to have a team play a tough non con and not get any wins but then turn it on in conference play.
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  #12  
Old 06-16-2017, 10:42 AM
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Two ways to boost RPI:

1. Join Big East
2. Remove two of the these (Fordham, LaSalle, Duquesne, St Louis)

I prefer #1, but am all in favor of #2.
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Old 06-16-2017, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan View Post
Two ways to boost RPI:

1. Join Big East
2. Remove two of the these (Fordham, LaSalle, Duquesne, St Louis)

I prefer #1, but am all in favor of #2.
Preferably Fordham and Duquesne. Since La Salle and SLU actually have really good years every now and then.
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Old 06-16-2017, 11:15 AM
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St louis will be back this year big time. They had a JOB type situation with Jim Crews.
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  #15  
Old 06-16-2017, 11:55 AM
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If just two, Fordham and LaSalle are probably top of the list. Neither have the resources or commitment to ever be more than what they have been. Duquesne is probably third on that list.

SLU has been bad for much of it's A10 tenure, but not because of lack of resources or commitment.

I would probably put St Bonnies third overall, as they lack the resources to ever be consistently good in a top 10 league. Despite that they have performed reasonably well in men's hoops. But I'd much rather have a SLU and hope they get their act together than someone with almost no upside from what is essentially mediocrity.
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Old 06-16-2017, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
I would probably put St Bonnies third overall, as they lack the resources to ever be consistently good in a top 10 league. Despite that they have performed reasonably well in men's hoops. But I'd much rather have a SLU and hope they get their act together than someone with almost no upside from what is essentially mediocrity.
The Bonnie's have 6 Top-100 Ken Pom finishes since '02. SLU and GMU also have 6. UMASS has 5. Duquesne, La Salle, and Fordham all have less than 5.

For some perspective, UD, VCU, Richmond, SJU and I think Davidson have double digits. GW has 6. URI has 7.

Last edited by hawkoooo; 06-16-2017 at 01:54 PM..
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Old 06-16-2017, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan View Post
Two ways to boost RPI:

1. Join Big East
2. Remove two of the these (Fordham, LaSalle, Duquesne, St Louis)

I prefer #1, but am all in favor of #2.
This "who should we get rid of argument" comes up often. Though it may never happen, I thought it was at least worth it to see what the performance of each school actually was over the last decade.

I ran the numbers and here is the average KenPom rating for each team over the last 10 years:
VCU: 43
Dayton: 58
Richmond: 89
Davidson: 90
URI: 102
SJU: 109
UMass: 119
GW: 124
SBU: 124
GMU: 127
LaSalle: 131
SLU: 138
Duq: 147
Fordham: 237

This really shows how much worse Fordham has been than everyone else in the conference. Duquense is 2nd worst, but they are least close to some schools. The ratings difference from 2nd to 13th is the same as the distance from 13th to 14th.

Fordham has 8 seasons in the last 10 with KenPom >200.
The rest of the conference has 9 total (Duq 3, SLU 3, LaS 1, GM 1, SBU 1).
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  #18  
Old 06-16-2017, 02:18 PM
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George Mason could be on that list, but we just let them join. What the heck was someone thinking?
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Old 06-16-2017, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
George Mason could be on that list, but we just let them join. What the heck was someone thinking?
Ease up on GM, Dave Paulsen is a veteran hc with a track record of success. He also was a hc in d2 and d3 for about 15 years.

He has improved from year 1 to year 2.

I think he is going to work out at GM.


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Old 06-17-2017, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
The Bonnie's have 6 Top-100 Ken Pom finishes since '02. SLU and GMU also have 6. UMASS has 5. Duquesne, La Salle, and Fordham all have less than 5.

For some perspective, UD, VCU, Richmond, SJU and I think Davidson have double digits. GW has 6. URI has 7.
The problem with the Bonnie's is with 6 top 100s in 15 years they are maxing out their potential. Others with more resources have a far higher ceiling.
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:10 AM
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I think Dambrot will get it done at Duquesne. In the 2018 class they've already beat out West Virginia for a center from the Chillicothe area. He got some nice transfers as well in the spring. I don't know if they'll contend for A10 titles but I don't think they'll be the embarrassment that they've been.

LaSalle, well hopefully the transfer route they've taken makes them competitive.
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Old 06-17-2017, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
George Mason could be on that list, but we just let them join. What the heck was someone thinking?
GM finished at about rpi #200 after DP's 1st year.

They finished at about rpi #100 after year 2, a 50% improvement.

If they improve by another 50% this year, they will be a top 50, NIT-bound team.

It only took DP 2 years to turn Bucknell into a Patriot League contender, in year 3, he won the PL title.
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Old 06-17-2017, 08:35 PM
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The other thing the 20 game schedule is gonna hurt is the quality of exempt tournaments. I suspect we won't see few if any Big10 or ACC teams in our neutral site exempt tourneys

If you're a Big10 or ACC school and you've got 20 conference games, the ACC/Big10 challenge.

Let's take Clemson or Georgia Tech. Both also have a SEC rival (South Carolina & Georgia) they play every year. That's 22 games out of 30 schedule right off the bat.

Instead of playing in the Charleston Classic or the standard neutral site exempt tourney I could see these schools going the route of just hosting an exempt tourney at their home arena with low majors to get the extra home games. Ohio State did this and played Florida H/H with both of them hosting at the rest of the tourney. OSU did this one year and played Notre Dame at Madison Square Garden.


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Old 06-17-2017, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
GM finished at about rpi #200 after DP's 1st year.

They finished at about rpi #100 after year 2, a 50% improvement.

If they improve by another 50% this year, they will be a top 50, NIT-bound team.

It only took DP 2 years to turn Bucknell into a Patriot League contender, in year 3, he won the PL title.
And if Andy Dalton improves 50% he will lead the Bengals to the Superbowl.
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Old 06-18-2017, 09:21 AM
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I don't think Paulsen gets them into the top 3 this year but he's a good coach. Within five years they should be a postseason team
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Old 06-21-2017, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
It would actually make scheduling easier if the A10 goes to 20. You would play 7 teams twice and 6 teams once.

The BE would have to go to 10.
This reduces the ability for quality wins.

If the A10 rewards the better teams in the A10 with a stronger pod, then we get the best schedule possible in conference.

A10 teams need the opportunity for strong wins outside of the conference. Tying up your schedule with conference games increases the SOS and ease of scheduling for the P5 and hurts the non-P5 schools.

BE can do as they please OOC because they don't rely on it for their total body of work.
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  #27  
Old 06-21-2017, 08:43 AM
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Once again, we have to ask where are all the matchups between all the top mid-majors. Why aren't they scheduling each other? Yes, UD has SMC on a home/home basis, but where are the others? The top teams in the non P5 conferences should all be scheduling each other, along with one to two P5 if you can get it, then your buy games. That would give you the opportunity for 3 - 4 quality OOC wins, plus an exempt tourney, then conference. Yes, easier said than done, but if they want the SOS and RPI, they are going to have to get it done.
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Old 06-21-2017, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
Once again, we have to ask where are all the matchups between all the top mid-majors. Why aren't they scheduling each other? Yes, UD has SMC on a home/home basis, but where are the others? The top teams in the non P5 conferences should all be scheduling each other, along with one to two P5 if you can get it, then your buy games. That would give you the opportunity for 3 - 4 quality OOC wins, plus an exempt tourney, then conference. Yes, easier said than done, but if they want the SOS and RPI, they are going to have to get it done.
I have to believe that there are several other good, non-p5 programs that are in the same boat as us:

Gonzaga, SMC, BYU, San Diego State, Boise State, Memphis, Cincinnati, SMU, UConn, Temple, Wichita State, New Mexico, Northern Iowa, Valpo, UNLV, etc.
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