After Archie

[KGB26]

Firing Archie and then hiring another Assistant coach from somewhere will not be the solution for UD's program, but just wait and see. That is exactly what is likely to happen.
I continue to blame the Administration for milking the program and being content with the status quo versus making a multi-year commitment to fixing what has been lacking in the program for these many years.
I do see more and more of us waking up to the broader problem than has been realized in the past.
Administration (not just the AD), are you listening?

kGB26

[Odrab14]

Unless their is like a monumental 7-24 season or something next year..Archie will not be fired. For me this is year one of his TRUE evaluation and thus far I give him a C minus. I have and will continue to claim that smaller programs like the Flyers can not consistently WIN without better upper classes within their programs. When Gregory left we essentially lost two years of classes and were behind on a third. Remember our "amazing" class of Staten, Spearman, Berry and Oliver. Then in the Wings we had Henton and Gibson!!
Only Oliver remains of that group. He is now our "go to guy". Vee is below average, Kav's is a 6th year. Then our junior class is even weaker. Sibert and Alex G!! You can not win conferences with this. Archie's first real class are these sophomores. Pierre can play, Price should be a good off the bench guy, Robinson and Scott are not progressing as one would hope.

Point is while I don't agree with all of Archie's in game coaching, defensive stubborness or lack of movement on offense, I do think he will and should get more time.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[rollo]

If Archie leaves on his own we don't have to fire him.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Odrab14 Unless their is like a monumental 7-24 season or something next year..Archie will not be fired. For me this is year one of his TRUE evaluation and thus far I give him a C minus. I have and will continue to claim that smaller programs like the Flyers can not consistently WIN without better upper classes within their programs. When Gregory left we essentially lost two years of classes and were behind on a third. Remember our "amazing" class of Staten, Spearman, Berry and Oliver. Then in the Wings we had Henton and Gibson!! Only Oliver remains of that group. He is now our "go to guy". Vee is below average, Kav's is a 6th year. Then our junior class is even weaker. Sibert and Alex G!! You can not win conferences with this. Archie's first real class are these sophomores. Pierre can play, Price should be a good off the bench guy, Robinson and Scott are not progressing as one would hope. Point is while I don't agree with all of Archie's in game coaching, defensive stubborness or lack of movement on offense, I do think he will and should get more time.

Probably sums up the entire situation better than any I've read and/or shared with others..Not only the 5-6 guys that Miler missed out on due to transfers, recruits de-committing, etc. etc. it's also about the guys he had to recruit and offer strictly to fill out a team.

I'd argue with anyone that there is no way that AG gets an offer in a normal type year but AM needed another BIG and it was already late April...Same with with Price. He simply had to have a backup last year for KD. I like Price but only like him as an 8-10 mpg guy and a backup defensive guy who can give a guy a blow, turn up the defense when needed, or hit a shot or two. He is not an adequate starting PG for any team mid major and up.

This even brings us back to Kavs. Missing him a year ago not only caused a huge hole for last year's success, and having him another year in AM's system and build upon his pretty-good play two years ago, but also forced a couple freshman BIGS to have to play the center role a year ago and neither Jalin or Scott are centers. They're actually playing that role again to an extent with the games MK played poorly in and missed due to injury, thus, not being able to advance their role in their normal positions and developing bad habits..

Most will look at these posts as typical excuses but it's simply the truth here and the snowball effect......

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[bobber]

Originally Posted by Odrab14 Unless their is like a monumental 7-24 season or something next year..Archie will not be fired. For me this is year one of his TRUE evaluation and thus far I give him a C minus. I have and will continue to claim that smaller programs like the Flyers can not consistently WIN without better upper classes within their programs. When Gregory left we essentially lost two years of classes and were behind on a third. Remember our "amazing" class of Staten, Spearman, Berry and Oliver. Then in the Wings we had Henton and Gibson!! Only Oliver remains of that group. He is now our "go to guy". Vee is below average, Kav's is a 6th year. Then our junior class is even weaker. Sibert and Alex G!! You can not win conferences with this. Archie's first real class are these sophomores. Pierre can play, Price should be a good off the bench guy, Robinson and Scott are not progressing as one would hope. Point is while I don't agree with all of Archie's in game coaching, defensive stubborness or lack of movement on offense, I do think he will and should get more time.

I have consistently maintained that Archie is here for the duration of his contract. He will get a fourth and fifth year. He isn't going to resign. And when it is all over, we will find a replacement and the cycle will start all over again.

Who knows? Maybe Archie can turn it around.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[dnutz77]

Originally Posted by steve Probably sums up the entire situation better than any I've read and/or shared with others..Not only the 5-6 guys that Miler missed out on due to transfers, recruits de-committing, etc. etc. it's also about the guys he had to recruit and offer strictly to fill out a team. I'd argue with anyone that there is no way that AG gets an offer in a normal type year but AM needed another BIG and it was already late April...Same with with Price. He simply had to have a backup last year for KD. I like Price but only like him as an 8-10 mpg guy and a backup defensive guy who can give a guy a blow, turn up the defense when needed, or hit a shot or two. He is not an adequate starting PG for any team mid major and up. This even brings us back to Kavs. Missing him a year ago not only caused a huge hole for last year's success, and having him another year in AM's system and build upon his pretty-good play two years ago, but also forced a couple freshman BIGS to have to play the center role a year ago and neither Jalin or Scott are centers. They're actually playing that role again to an extent with the games MK played poorly in and missed due to injury, thus, not being able to advance their role in their normal positions and developing bad habits.. Most will look at these posts as typical excuses but it's simply the truth here and the snowball effect......

I agree with 90% of this, but I actually think Price is a very good PG WHEN HEALTHY. He has shown that he can defend very well and can hit open shots from long range. He has even shown the ability to get to the rack (surprisingly) and finish. Also doesn't turn the ball over, but I honestly think his health is what is causing him to play at a sub-par level. Poor kid can't get healthy and it's clearly impacting the team in a bad way. At this point it's probably wise to give the keys to Scootch and let him grow into the PG of the future. Think he has a better upside anyway.

[Odrab14]

Originally Posted by dnutz77 I agree with 90% of this, but I actually think Price is a very good PG WHEN HEALTHY. He has shown that he can defend very well and can hit open shots from long range. He has even shown the ability to get to the rack (surprisingly) and finish. Also doesn't turn the ball over, but I honestly think his health is what is causing him to play at a sub-par level. Poor kid can't get healthy and it's clearly impacting the team in a bad way. At this point it's probably wise to give the keys to Scootch and let him grow into the PG of the future. Think he has a better upside anyway.

your are correct D. Not totally fair to assess Khari...Very well known about his knees and he has not been the same kid. AT 13-8 AND lost in the A-10 now its all about building the kids for next year. Scooch, Robinson, Scott, Davis and others should be seeing newfound minutes.

[jack72]

It surprises me that they do not shut Price down for a couple of weeks and let him heel. He is doing us little good since we have not won with him.

[steve]

Originally Posted by dnutz77 I agree with 90% of this, but I actually think Price is a very good PG WHEN HEALTHY. He has shown that he can defend very well and can hit open shots from long range. He has even shown the ability to get to the rack (surprisingly) and finish. Also doesn't turn the ball over, but I honestly think his health is what is causing him to play at a sub-par level. Poor kid can't get healthy and it's clearly impacting the team in a bad way. At this point it's probably wise to give the keys to Scootch and let him grow into the PG of the future. Think he has a better upside anyway.

I know KP has bad knees but it hasn't stopped his jumping ability a few times recently as he has gone air-borne pretty impressively for a few rebounds and getting back on D..You might want to retract that he does not turn the ball over. He's thrown plenty of bad, lazy passes the past 4-5 games and he's gotten picked a few times as well.He's simply a guy with very little fluidity, imho, and is not a good ball handler. He's not going to leave anybody in their tracks. Imho, he's not a great athlete and while you don't have to have that to be an adequate PG, KP has no real signature move. In 23 mpg for a team that has had a multitude of games shooting over 50% he's averaging 1.5 apg. That's literally unheard of and a big reason is he hardly ever gets off defenders, splits the defenders, gets into the lane, and never shortens the court. I called for Schoochie two games ago to be the starter and he's done nothing the past 30 plus minutes he's played not to earn that start.He's helped bring this team back the past two games from 15 plus points down to a handful against RI and all even last night.

[Beatty Town Coach]

If you are telling me Archie will be allowed to win 13,14, or 15 games this year, and then follow that up again next year with the same, but still will not be removed, then I say you are ****ting me, because there is no way in hell I will sit-back and silently participate in that ride while the U takes more of my money. If Archie doesn't reach post season this year or next, it better be over swiftly. Or, I will be lost as a fan for the next ten years, and UD will be lost as a program for the next ten, or more, as well. We are at a tipping point, and the Administration still thinks those of us that have stuck by the program are going to continue to do so. Well, forget it, not happening if Archie is allotted three years running of 500 or losing basketball. OMG, we fired a very successful legend of 25 years for the same thing.

[CE80]

While it is better to have both a strong post presence and a guard that can dribble and break down defenses, without either, you are cooked. That is the same problem OSU is suffering from now too. Khari is not a significant threat to drive to the hoop and thus causing the defense to collapse and provide an opportunity for an assist nor has he anyone that gets the ball in the low post that would cause the defense to collapse and provide the opportunity to kick it back out for an open shot.
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[Sea Bass]

Originally Posted by rollo If Archie leaves on his own we don't have to fire him.

why would he do that?

[Sea Bass]

Honestly for me his interpersonal issues are as big a deal as the W/L record. Have a friend who sits behind the scorers table and has disliked Archie for three years.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach If you are telling me Archie will be allowed to win 13,14, or 15 games this year, and then follow that up again next year with the same, but still will not be removed, then I say you are ****ting me, because there is no way in hell I will sit-back and silently participate in that ride while the U takes more of my money. If Archie doesn't reach post season this year or next, it better be over swiftly. Or, I will be lost as a fan for the next ten years, and UD will be lost as a program for the next ten, or more, as well. We are at a tipping point, and the Administration still thinks those of us that have stuck by the program are going to continue to do so. Well, forget it, not happening if Archie is allotted three years running of 500 or losing basketball. OMG, we fired a very successful legend of 25 years for the same thing.

If AM makes the NIT this year(seems very unlikely)or next year, do you think he will get a 5th year?

[FlyerGuyer]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass why would he do that?

BG did it...

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass Honestly for me his interpersonal issues are as big a deal as the W/L record. Have a friend who sits behind the scorers table and has disliked Archie for three years.

What do you mean by interpersonal issues?

[Beatty Town Coach]

So he doesn't have to tell his next, and every employer there-after, that he was fired from his last job. At this point, what's he going to tell them anyway?..."How good I did at Dayton!"

If there was any chance his tenure was about to get better and work itself out, then you might be right, but there is no chance of that whatsoever. Not a chance!

[FlyerGuyer]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass Honestly for me his interpersonal issues are as big a deal as the W/L record. Have a friend who sits behind the scorers table and has disliked Archie for three years.

Chemistry is extremely important, and anyone who has ever played team sports on a competitive level knows that. You can have all the individual talent in the world, but if you don't have good team chemistry, you'll never reach your potential as a team. Doesn't have to perfect harmony, but must be better than poor...

[Sea Bass]

Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer BG did it...

BG has a little more track record of success and had some opportunities to leave, I have not heard anything about another school having an interest in Archie. I really don't see that anyone is going to be knocking on Archies door after the season.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach So he doesn't have to tell his next, and every employer there-after, that he was fired from his last job. At this point, what's he going to tell them anyway?..."How good I did at Dayton!" If there was any chance his tenure was about to get better and work itself out, then you might be right, but there is no chance of that whatsoever. Not a chance!

No chance at all that things get better? You've completely given up on him?

[Sea Bass]

Originally Posted by ud2 What do you mean by interpersonal issues?

supposedly he gave a player an F-YOU after the URI game and gave a player a STFU near the end of the first half last night. I can live with the F-THIS and F-THAT but making it personal on the bench in front of the crowd is way over the line.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

[Bill Elwood]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass Honestly for me his interpersonal issues are as big a deal as the W/L record. Have a friend who sits behind the scorers table and has disliked Archie for three years.

I may be naïve or just uneducated on the team's inner sanctum, but except for some excessive f-bombs, does he have real communication or player relationship issues? By the way, if you're referring to the f-bomb part, one of his assistants can match him bomb for bomb.

[dnutz77]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass BG has a little more track record of success and had some opportunities to leave, I have not heard anything about another school having an interest in Archie. I really don't see that anyone is going to be knocking on Archies door after the season.

Don't believe BG had these opportunities after year 2.5, but I could be wrong.

[Beatty Town Coach]

Originally Posted by ud2 If AM makes the NIT this year(seems very unlikely)or next year, do you think he will get a 5th year?

Perhaps, but you are changing the facts because I said if he has losing or .500 seasons; and although you can make the NIT at .500, you typically don't, and if he did make an NIT like that but had another non-post season next year, that wouldn't really be enough to justify his continuance or this mediocrity. If on the other hand, you mean this season ends in NIT, well, you are both dreaming and changing reality. But what you are asking is the administration will see fit to give him a fifth year, and while I wouldn't want them to, they have shown and pattern of willingness to except just about any version of "competence". I, on the other hand don't suffer from that managerial shortcoming.

I look at Archie's first year NIT like I look at Gregory's first year NCAA; by an-large, those post season appearances where the consequences of what was left to them, not the miracles of their own coaching ability. In other words, I OP is really the reason for BG's first NCAA, and BG is really the reason for Archie's first and only NIT. So far Archie hasn't sniffed post season through the vicar of his own program. I know that officially those feathers go to whomever the current head coach is, so Gregory owns that NCAA and Archie owns that NIT, but only in the technical sense, but not when we get down to the skinny of it. And, so no, I don't think given the resources and status of the program when he got here, that Archie Miller should be given five or six years to do nothing. That would be ridiculous.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[Beatty Town Coach]

DePaul tried to get BG pretty early on I thought.

[FlyerGuyer]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass BG has a little more track record of success and had some opportunities to leave, I have not heard anything about another school having an interest in Archie. I really don't see that anyone is going to be knocking on Archies door after the season.

True, but after Maui, I heard rumblings that Archie was the talk of the town and that some programs were already looking at him.

Of course, that was two months ago. Oh how things can change in two months, I suppose...

[Sea Bass]

Originally Posted by Bill Elwood I may be naïve or just uneducated on the team's inner sanctum, but except for some excessive f-bombs, does he have real communication or player relationship issues? By the way, if you're referring to the f-bomb part, one of his assistants can match him bomb for bomb.

I don't mind the F-bombs, it is using them in a personal attack in while on the bench that bothers me. It you have something personal to say those things should be addressed behind closed doors. IMO it shows a lack of maturity.

[Beatty Town Coach]

Originally Posted by ud2 No chance at all that things get better? You've completely given up on him?

Don't make it my fault, I am not the head coach. It is not a matter of me, or anyone else giving up on Archie or anybody for that matter. I think this team has talent and depth, but rather it is an accurate observation that Archie acts as if he is in over his youthful head. Archie's ability to change any of this, is kind of like the Supreme Courts description of pornography, as they put it "they didn't know the definition, but they know it when they see it".

To that end, UD fans know good basketball when they see it, and baby we are not seeing it; and it is painfully obvious that the coaching gap in this program is the reason why.

[dnutz77]

Originally Posted by steve I know KP has bad knees but it hasn't stopped his jumping ability a few times recently as he has gone air-borne pretty impressively for a few rebounds and getting back on D..You might want to retract that he does not turn the ball over. He's thrown plenty of bad, lazy passes the past 4-5 games and he's gotten picked a few times as well.He's simply a guy with very little fluidity, imho, and is not a good ball handler. He's not going to leave anybody in their tracks. Imho, he's not a great athlete and while you don't have to have that to be an adequate PG, KP has no real signature move. In 23 mpg for a team that has had a multitude of games shooting over 50% he's averaging 1.5 apg. That's literally unheard of and a big reason is he hardly ever gets off defenders, splits the defenders, gets into the lane, and never shortens the court. I called for Schoochie two games ago to be the starter and he's done nothing the past 30 plus minutes he's played not to earn that start.He's helped bring this team back the past two games from 15 plus points down to a handful against RI and all even last night.

Prior to conference play I will argue that KP was playing pretty solid ball and a lot of folks were singing his praises. He had 12 total turnovers (15 games) through the non-conference portion of the schedule. So far in 6 A-10 games, he is obviously not the same player and has 12 total turnovers. Think his injuries have something to do with how he is performing??

I am not saying he is the second coming of Magic Johnson, but he is certainly a solid PG who played good D and took care of the BBall when he was healthy. Think there might be a reason why UD is struggling so much since he's been playing hurt? Hmmmmm.....

[Sea Bass]

IMO if there is a harbinger of bad tidings it is Jalen Robinson. Kid had an excellent freshman year (6pts, 5rebs). The team needed him to step up but he has regressed and was the 4th center off the bench last night and the only reason he played was that the others had failed miserable for the first 30 minutes. I do not know why Jalen has fallen to the bottom of the rotation and has regressed but it is a huge reason why this team has hit a plateau and failed to get better.

[ud2]

I think an ex-player like shocka or dnutz would be the ones best suited to address the sideline profanity issue. I don't know if that is a problem or not or is unusual or not. I've heard of situations with at least one other d1 team involving at least one player cursing at the coaches in such a manner that the fans in the stands could hear what was going on.

Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach Don't make it my fault, I am not the head coach. It is not a matter of me, or anyone else giving up on Archie or anybody for that matter. I think this team has talent and depth, but rather it is an accurate observation that Archie acts as if he is in over his youthful head. Archie's ability to change any of this, is kind of like the Supreme Courts description of pornography, as they put it "they didn't know the definition, but they know it when they see it". To that end, UD fans know could basketball when they see it, and baby we are not seeing it; and it is painfully obvious that the coaching gap in this program is the reason why.

No trick, not trying to trick you, just simply asking you if you think that there is no chance that things get better? You've completely given up on him?

[Bill Elwood]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass I don't mind the F-bombs, it is using them in a personal attack in while on the bench that bothers me. It you have something personal to say those things should be addressed behind closed doors. IMO it shows a lack of maturity.

Hear you, Sea Bass...and agree. Should not be used in a personal attack way, EVER!

[Sea Bass]

IMO part of Khari struggles is that the opposiing defenses have been a lot better in conference play. Less gaps to drive in, the ball movement doesn't generate as many easy opportunities which puts a bigger responsibility on the PG to create offense, that is not his strength.

[The Gem]

At this point I have serious questions about Archie. Early in the season I was in the, let's wait until this year's sophomores are seniors before we really judge Archie camp, but after the last few games I am not sure he knows what he is doing.
If you look at the history since Donoher's firing we have had four coaches. JOB was a disaster, BG was a disappointment, Archie is starting to look like BG v2.0. OP was successful and did what he was hired to do and moved on up the ladder. What did OP have the rest didn't? A proven track record of rebuilding programs that were winning less than 10 games a year. If Archie doesn't work out, we need to kick down the cash to get a coach with a proven track record of wining. In the mean time, The Groundhog Day Era rolls on.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[steve]

Originally Posted by dnutz77 Prior to conference play I will argue that KP was playing pretty solid ball and a lot of folks were singing his praises. He had 12 total turnovers (15 games) through the non-conference portion of the schedule. So far in 6 A-10 games, he is obviously not the same player and has 12 total turnovers. Think his injuries have something to do with how he is performing?? I am not saying he is the second coming of Magic Johnson, but he is certainly a solid PG who played good D and took care of the BBall when he was healthy. Think there might be a reason why UD is struggling so much since he's been playing hurt? Hmmmmm.....

Imho, as has been the problem with UD in general in A10 play, they simply get out-coached. Seem to get out-coached coming out of TO's, coming out of half time, etc. and, alluding to your point, it has a profound effect on player personnel and player development.We seem to always be a half-step slow against many A10 teams..They know what/who we are, yet, we don't know our opponents. Absolutely ZERO reason in the world the Richmond guards were able to beat our guys with their strong hand dribble at least 20 times that game..I've always said in any sport that when it seems like your opponent is out-numbering you between the lines than you're getting out-coached..

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[steve]

Originally Posted by dnutz77 Prior to conference play I will argue that KP was playing pretty solid ball and a lot of folks were singing his praises. He had 12 total turnovers (15 games) through the non-conference portion of the schedule. So far in 6 A-10 games, he is obviously not the same player and has 12 total turnovers. Think his injuries have something to do with how he is performing?? I am not saying he is the second coming of Magic Johnson, but he is certainly a solid PG who played good D and took care of the BBall when he was healthy. Think there might be a reason why UD is struggling so much since he's been playing hurt? Hmmmmm.....

Imho, as has been the problem with UD in general in A10 play, they simply get out-coached. Seem to get out-coached coming out of TO's, coming out of half time, etc. and, alluding to your point, it has a profound effect on player personnel and player development.We seem to always be a half-step slow against many A10 teams..They know what/who we are, yet, we don't know our opponents. Absolutely ZERO reason in the world the Richmond guards were able to beat our guys with their strong hand dribble at least 20 times that game..I've always said in any sport that when it seems like your opponent is out-numbering you between the lines than you're getting out-coached..

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach If you are telling me Archie will be allowed to win 13,14, or 15 games this year, and then follow that up again next year with the same, but still will not be removed, then I say you are ****ting me, because there is no way in hell I will sit-back and silently participate in that ride while the U takes more of my money. If Archie doesn't reach post season this year or next, it better be over swiftly. Or, I will be lost as a fan for the next ten years, and UD will be lost as a program for the next ten, or more, as well. We are at a tipping point, and the Administration still thinks those of us that have stuck by the program are going to continue to do so. Well, forget it, not happening if Archie is allotted three years running of 500 or losing basketball. OMG, we fired a very successful legend of 25 years for the same thing.

"We" didn't fire Donoher. The stupid UD administration did- and since then, we've been a cursed university. I was loudly against the idiotic DD firing in1989. That just shows you how stupid this university is. IMO, that single fact scared off a good many decent coaches in 1989 which is why somebody convinced Frericks to hire a virtual unknown in JOB. And UD has struggled ever since. Maybe what ought to happen, to appease the basketball gods, is to publicly acknowledge the stupidity of that firing in 1989 and hope the curse is released...personally I'm sick of underperforming.
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	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[CraSch]

I'm not claiming that Archie is Don Donoher. I'm not claiming Archie is Coach K. But here's a couple of things I find interesting.

Donoher's record went steadily down his last 5 years. His final 3 years were: 13-15, 13-18, 12-17. Who's to say his next 3 years wouldn't have continued the trend and he would have gone 11-18, 10-19, 8-21? It is possible that it was the right time to move on from Donoher. Archie's record for his 2.7 years is better, yet many on here want him gone. Seems contradictory, at the basic level. And it can't be "expectations are higher now", Donoher once took us to the NCAA finals and for years was a consistent winner, don't tell me there were no expectations on him after the great career he had.

Coach K: last season with Army was 9-17. First 3 years at Duke were 17-13, 10-17, 11-17 with an overall conference record of 13-29. Archie's doing better than that record-wise (though just barely in conference play). Again, I'm not saying Archie will become Coach K, he may actually prove to be Dave Shula (probably the worst Bengals coach ever for those that don't know him). My point is we may be overreacting. You can't tell me that Duke KNEW that Mike would go from "that coach with the weird last name" to COACH K - GREATEST OF ALL COACHES. There is NO WAY they knew this. Yet I think many of the fans on this board, if the season was 1982-1983 (Coach K's 3rd season at Duke) and this was a Duke board, would have been asking for his head back then. And what would have happened to Duke if they had tossed Coach K after 3 seasons?

Again, I'm not saying Archie will be as great as DD or Coach K, I'm just saying that we should probably have a bit more patience with him, he may actually turn out to be pretty good if given the chance. And when his 5 year contract is up, if his A10 record still looks like my bank account (empty), then definitely, find a new coach.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[daytonflyers]

Originally Posted by CraSch I'm not claiming that Archie is Don Donoher. I'm not claiming Archie is Coach K. But here's a couple of things I find interesting. Donoher's record went steadily down his last 5 years. His final 3 years were: 13-15, 13-18, 12-17. Who's to say his next 3 years wouldn't have continued the trend and he would have gone 11-18, 10-19, 8-21? It is possible that it was the right time to move on from Donoher. Archie's record for his 2.7 years is better, yet many on here want him gone. Seems contradictory, at the basic level. And it can't be "expectations are higher now", Donoher once took us to the NCAA finals and for years was a consistent winner, don't tell me there were no expectations on him after the great career he had. Coach K: last season with Army was 9-17. First 3 years at Duke were 17-13, 10-17, 11-17 with an overall conference record of 13-29. Archie's doing better than that record-wise (though just barely in conference play). Again, I'm not saying Archie will become Coach K, he may actually prove to be Dave Shula (probably the worst Bengals coach ever for those that don't know him). My point is we may be overreacting. You can't tell me that Duke KNEW that Mike would go from "that coach with the weird last name" to COACH K - GREATEST OF ALL COACHES. There is NO WAY they knew this. Yet I think many of the fans on this board, if the season was 1982-1983 (Coach K's 3rd season at Duke) and this was a Duke board, would have been asking for his head back then. And what would have happened to Duke if they had tossed Coach K after 3 seasons? Again, I'm not saying Archie will be as great as DD or Coach K, I'm just saying that we should probably have a bit more patience with him, he may actually turn out to be pretty good if given the chance. And when his 5 year contract is up, if his A10 record still looks like my bank account (empty), then definitely, find a new coach.

For every Coach K (there happens to be only 1), there are a million coaches who were terrible their first three years...and stayed terrible the rest of their careers. I don't know if I want Archie to have more time, but I know that what Coach K did 30 years ago will play no role in forming my opinion.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 "We" didn't fire Donoher. The stupid UD administration did- and since then, we've been a cursed university. I was loudly against the idiotic DD firing in1989. That just shows you how stupid this university is. IMO, that single fact scared off a good many decent coaches in 1989 which is why somebody convinced Frericks to hire a virtual unknown in JOB. And UD has struggled ever since. Maybe what ought to happen, to appease the basketball gods, is to publicly acknowledge the stupidity of that firing in 1989 and hope the curse is released...personally I'm sick of underperforming. Posted via Mobile Device

Donoher was a great coach. But I think the game past him by back then. He had what seemed to be a slow methodical approach and it wasn't getting it done against the faster pace. It was puzzling to me how JOB took Donoher's players, turned up the pace big time and was very successful with it. Then he couldn't find his own players to do the same.

I really think DD only knew one style of play to coach. It was a slowdown game with very smart, disciplined players. They always made their free throws. Prior to the 3 point line, Donoher had some of the best deep shooters year after year. Without that extra point, they couldn't make up for the big men he couldn't land. Then, when the 3 point line became the great equalizer, the great shooters went elsewhere like the great big men.

When you can't recruit the great big men and can't recruit the great 3-point shooters, you are going to struggle and that's what I think has happened since the 3point line was introduced and why our success hasn't equaled what it had prior.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[CraSch]

and there are many that improve over time and the first 3 years are the big learning curve. With what others have pointed out were his obstacle early (player defections, recruit defections, etc), 2.7 years is a bit quick to toss the guy.

UD could toss coaches every 2 to 3 years for not being awesome immediately. Then what happens is eventually no good candidates even accept interview invitations, and you are in the rut forever, like the Cleveland Browns.

Yes, I realize Coach K was an extreme example (and by the way, his year 3 of Duke was year 8 overall, so definitely couldn't see his career coming at that point), but how many programs that are continually crappy do you ever see improve when they consistently turn over their coaches in short time periods? Very few. And when they do somehow (accidentally??) get a good coach, that coach leaves as soon as possible and they go back to being crappy (Digger Phelps and Fordham are an example). My point is simply that I personally believe giving a guy 4 or 5 years, especially with the what seemed to be tougher than normal obstacles Archie faced earlier on, is justified and asking for his head after 2.7 years is too short. And I admit it's my opinion.

I also realize you don't want guys around too long that are not improving. Many believe BG was here too long, and I tend to agree.

No, I don't know where the happy medium is, that is why I'm not in college sports administration and I admit these are my opinions and not facts.

I'm perfectly behind the idea of finding new leadership above Archie, as that is the level that should be held responsible for the 10 years stagnation, or whatever you want to call it, that Chris R so eloquently pointed out in is article.

	Chris Rieman CHRIS RIEMAN, PUBLISHER Founder and publisher of UDPride.com. Writer, photographer, videographer, coder, grip, comedian, auto aficionado, and lifelong Flyer fan.

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by CraSch and there are many that improve over time and the first 3 years are the big learning curve. With what others have pointed out were his obstacle early (player defections, recruit defections, etc), 2.7 years is a bit quick to toss the guy. UD could toss coaches every 2 to 3 years for not being awesome immediately. Then what happens is eventually no good candidates even accept interview invitations, and you are in the rut forever, like the Cleveland Browns. Yes, I realize Coach K was an extreme example (and by the way, his year 3 of Duke was year 8 overall, so definitely couldn't see his career coming at that point), but how many programs that are continually crappy do you ever see improve when they consistently turn over their coaches in short time periods? Very few. And when they do somehow (accidentally??) get a good coach, that coach leaves as soon as possible and they go back to being crappy (Digger Phelps and Fordham are an example). My point is simply that I personally believe giving a guy 4 or 5 years, especially with the what seemed to be tougher than normal obstacles Archie faced earlier on, is justified and asking for his head after 2.7 years is too short. And I admit it's my opinion. I also realize you don't want guys around too long that are not improving. Many believe BG was here too long, and I tend to agree. No, I don't know where the happy medium is, that is why I'm not in college sports administration and I admit these are my opinions and not facts. I'm perfectly behind the idea of finding new leadership above Archie, as that is the level that should be held responsible for the 10 years stagnation, or whatever you want to call it, that Chris R so eloquently pointed out in is article.

First of all, the Cleveland Browns are not pathetic because they fire Headcoaches ever 2 or 3 (in latest case 1) years. It's because they draft like dart throwers and the headcoaches they hire are pathetic.

2nd of all, I agree with you on firing college basketball coaches too soon. Especially ones that are just getting their feet wet. Archie has recruited and some, maybe a lot of these recruits aren't living up to expectations. It's time for him to learn and figure out what went wrong, chemistry, not the right balance, misjudgement etc... This is the true test, because I can't believe that all the players are not good fits. He needs to find what he's missing that would make this team a good one and focus his recruiting on that. On paper, it looks like we have a lot of talent, but on the floor they just aren't a well oiled machine.

I realize that this is a season like no other that us fans have seen from this team. Never have we seen so much promise start so well and deteriorate so fast without injuries as an excuse. So I understand the anger aimed at AM. But I still believe he deserves more time to figure it out for next year. Maybe he'll turn it around and we'll see teams better than we ever have. Because to me, I can't really pinpoint anything Archie can do during this season to make things so much better, there's a problem, most likely with the players(mental things) and Archie shouldn't be thrown to wolves yet.

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

[Flyer 86]

Originally Posted by Bill Elwood I may be naïve or just uneducated on the team's inner sanctum, but except for some excessive f-bombs, does he have real communication or player relationship issues? By the way, if you're referring to the f-bomb part, one of his assistants can match him bomb for bomb.

as to previous comment about ARchie's tongue lashings and choice of language, anyone with a whiff of conscientious and Catholic faith in them must not dig his communication language and style. It's not professional or the right image we should want to portray.

Second Bill, who is the other f bomb thrower? I ask this just for my own knowledge. I have no internal connections to the U , as I live in NY.

[Flyer 86]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass IMO if there is a harbinger of bad tidings it is Jalen Robinson. Kid had an excellent freshman year (6pts, 5rebs). The team needed him to step up but he has regressed and was the 4th center off the bench last night and the only reason he played was that the others had failed miserable for the first 30 minutes. I do not know why Jalen has fallen to the bottom of the rotation and has regressed but it is a huge reason why this team has hit a plateau and failed to get better.

I'm with you Sea Bass. Had a strong first year.

ARchie has NO plan or rhyme or reason with the 4 bigs. And while Scott had some good moments early in the year, he appears lost now.

Archie needs to decide in the next two games who is main two bigs are , and sub one in for backup minutes. IF it were up to me, I'd start Kavs and bring in Jalen at 15 minute mark.

From there I think Gavs isn't getting enough minutes. So I'd rotate Gavs, Kavs and Jalen, while focusing on Jalen when we need offense and we are winning. Against taller tougher teams, play Kavs, Jalen and Scott to utilize some fouls and toughness.

ARchie is blowing the 4 center/forwards. NOt easy with those two injuries that happened but hey, it's his mess to develop and deal with positively

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Donoher was a great coach. But I think the game past him by back then. He had what seemed to be a slow methodical approach and it wasn't getting it done against the faster pace. It was puzzling to me how JOB took Donoher's players, turned up the pace big time and was very successful with it. Then he couldn't find his own players to do the same. I really think DD only knew one style of play to coach. It was a slowdown game with very smart, disciplined players. They always made their free throws. Prior to the 3 point line, Donoher had some of the best deep shooters year after year. Without that extra point, they couldn't make up for the big men he couldn't land. Then, when the 3 point line became the great equalizer, the great shooters went elsewhere like the great big men. When you can't recruit the great big men and can't recruit the great 3-point shooters, you are going to struggle and that's what I think has happened since the 3point line was introduced and why our success hasn't equaled what it had prior.

I continually just laugh at the number of people who say "coach Donoher was great in his day but the game passed him by".

You want to know a famous coach who not only met with Donoher on a regular basis to review his coaching theories but also considered Donoher a BB genius? How does the name Rick Majerus strike you? Was HE running an outdated "passed by game" a few years ago on senior day when UD lost by 30? That was Donohers offense he was running that day....

Donoher had a mere fraction in terms of monetary budget compared to JOB, OP, BG or AM have at their disposal today. And he was paid a fraction by today's or yesterday's standard. Donoher always had great 3 point shooters but surely you realize only the last few years of his coaching career was that even a rule right?

As far as JOB taking Donohers players to "the next level" - I always saw that as a group of players who underperformed for most of their career and really only one player one that team who really didn't buy into his style of coaching and that unfortunately was Negel Knight. And without his buy-in, you had no team since he was the point. Get your facts straight....the game didn't pass Donoher by- history, coaches and those who know better - know better.
Posted via Mobile Device

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[Sea Bass]

Mick never liked recruiting and the game changed after the 60s. Every once in a while he would fall into some really good player and parlay that into some success but his teams were never deep and lacked athleticism. I remember during his last season I asked Haus what was going on he told me Mick could not convince them that there were not playing hard ... in other words they had tuned him out.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass Mick never liked recruiting and the game changed after the 60s. Every once in a while he would fall into some really good player and parlay that into some success but his teams were never deep and lacked athleticism. I remember during his last season I asked Haus what was going on he told me Mick could not convince them that there were not playing hard ... in other words they had tuned him out.

And, those players complained to the AD (Frericks) about him and Donoher was told not to discipline them....and that's when he knew he was gone.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[Sea Bass]

On Gavs I have had people tell me he is not a hard worker in practice. I have no first hand knowledge if that is true but it would explain why Alex rarely plays.

[Atlantic 10]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 "We" didn't fire Donoher. The stupid UD administration did- and since then, we've been a cursed university. I was loudly against the idiotic DD firing in1989. That just shows you how stupid this university is. IMO, that single fact scared off a good many decent coaches in 1989 which is why somebody convinced Frericks to hire a virtual unknown in JOB. And UD has struggled ever since. Maybe what ought to happen, to appease the basketball gods, is to publicly acknowledge the stupidity of that firing in 1989 and hope the curse is released...personally I'm sick of underperforming. Posted via Mobile Device

That name is John Paxon Sr, that brought JOB name to the front

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[Chris R]

Lets be careful and keep perspective as a lot gets said among fans -- many of it wholly inaccurate or conflated -- that is second or third-hand. Forum indictments on personal work habits of players and coaches should be highly substantiated.

Alex and everyone else deserve that much. A lot of people dont think I work too hard either.

As for Donoher, he almost took the Navy(?) job a year or two before his last season at Dayton. Things were getting long in the tooth at the Arena and everyone could see it. Painful home losses in the MCC tourney. The product simply wasnt what it once was. From 1974-1989, there were only 2-3 NCAA "moments". The flashes became fewer and farther between. We started losing to Biscayne and padding the schedule with Baldin-Wallace and Otterbein. It was time to move on. I think the best evidence was the fact that someone like Jim O'Brien could take Donoher's players and take them a Norm Grevey clothesline away from the Sweet-16.

The stumble became the successor to Donoher, not the end of Donoher's career. Don gave everything he could to UD and then some. There was nothing left to prove and it was time for fresh paint on a vastly and quickly changing college basketball landscape.

Perhaps UD as an institution is larger in culpability for not changing with those times sooner while choosing to embrace conference independence among other things. I dont think its any one seminal decision.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[ud2]

If AM does get this turned around, then I hope that people aren't angry with him if he decides to leave for another job. Look at how much heat he is currently under. Don't think that AM doesn't feel the heat, because he does feel it.

This is why I never begrudge coaches that leave for another school.

Also, a coach never stays hot forever, you have to git while the gittins good.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass On Gavs I have had people tell me he is not a hard worker in practice. I have no first hand knowledge if that is true but it would explain why Alex rarely plays.

Comon Sea Bass....really? It's just practice.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI

[Sea Bass]

I said I have no first hand knowledge about Alex. Was is true is Alex is more skilled and more mobile than any other Flyer big guy. He can make a perimeter shot, he can turn to either shoulder inside (he prefers using his left hand) and he can move his feet better and sets better screens in IMO.

I see no reason on the surface that Alex rarely gets a shot. I realize that injuries have been a factor. I would love to see him get an opportunity because it is possible he could stretch the floor.

[FlyerGuyer]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 Comon Sea Bass....really? It's just practice.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI

Ain't nobody got time for dat!

[Sea Bass]

Originally Posted by Atlantic 10 That name is John Paxon Sr, that brought JOB name to the front

actually Frericks shirked his responsibility as the AD and formed a committee to hire the new basketball coach but IIRC it was not an impressive list. JOB, Haley Sr, Tom Apke, Randy Ayers (??) and it was a long drawn out process. It was a complete CF. I remember the story about JOB and the contact lenses.

[anthonycharles]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass Haley Sr

Seriously? A local high school coach? I went to his basketball camps and all, but if he was coaching Dayton, what a joke that would've been.

[Sea Bass]

Originally Posted by anthonycharles Seriously? A local high school coach? I went to his basketball camps and all, but if he was coaching Dayton, what a joke that would've been.

he was interviewed for the job.

[Glen Clark]

Originally Posted by anthonycharles Seriously? A local high school coach? I went to his basketball camps and all, but if he was coaching Dayton, what a joke that would've been.

Kind of like a Cincinnati high school coach taking over the Notre Dame football program - it'll never happen . . .

Oh, wait - it did happen.

Never mind.

___________________
Whether your glass is half empty or half full, you still have more to drink.

[Sea Bass]

But by that time the Faust experiment was a known failure. The fact that haley sr was on it just reinforces it was a bad list.

Let's not forget that Kissel lucked into OP. He tried to hire Mike Deane and Willis Wilson.

[Atlantic 10]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass actually Frericks shirked his responsibility as the AD and formed a committee to hire the new basketball coach but IIRC it was not an impressive list. JOB, Haley Sr, Tom Apke, Randy Ayers (??) and it was a long drawn out process. It was a complete CF. I remember the story about JOB and the contact lenses.

That is true and Paxon SR was the head of that committee

[bobber]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass But by that time the Faust experiment was a known failure. The fact that haley sr was on it just reinforces it was a bad list. Let's not forget that Kissel lucked into OP. He tried to hire Mike Deane and Willis Wilson.

Ah yes, Mike Deane, he of the dark sun glasses. I was never so disappointed as the day Marquette swooped in at the last minute and grabbed him. Supposedly he was ours....but his team kept winning in the NIT and when they were finally done the Warriors (their politically incorrect name at the time) needed a coach.

The rest is history.

[Flyer2]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 "We" didn't fire Donoher. The stupid UD administration did- and since then, we've been a cursed university. I was loudly against the idiotic DD firing in1989. That just shows you how stupid this university is. IMO, that single fact scared off a good many decent coaches in 1989 which is why somebody convinced Frericks to hire a virtual unknown in JOB. And UD has struggled ever since. Maybe what ought to happen, to appease the basketball gods, is to publicly acknowledge the stupidity of that firing in 1989 and hope the curse is released...personally I'm sick of under performing. Posted via Mobile Device

Tom Frericks fired Donoher and it really fractured their relationship...but then Tom was too busy with NCAA bull feces to interview available coaches at the tournament and didn't think about it till he was back. Huggie Bear was interested but Tom wouldn't have it. So we ended up with a division IV coach that sucked big time "and once stayed at a Holiday Inn Express". He was a great waterboy for Petino but that was it. Petino could do mass substitutions but he had talent we did not! He inherited Don's guy and they were skilled in fundamentals and that is why he had a good first year.

So as far as I'm concerned Tom Frericks is the person responsible for the decline in UD basketball.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[Flyer2]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass On Gavs I have had people tell me he is not a hard worker in practice. I have no first hand knowledge if that is true but it would explain why Alex rarely plays.

He is "French" I know but it was too easy.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 I continually just laugh at the number of people who say "coach Donoher was great in his day but the game passed him by". You want to know a famous coach who not only met with Donoher on a regular basis to review his coaching theories but also considered Donoher a BB genius? How does the name Rick Majerus strike you? Was HE running an outdated "passed by game" a few years ago on senior day when UD lost by 30? That was Donohers offense he was running that day.... Donoher had a mere fraction in terms of monetary budget compared to JOB, OP, BG or AM have at their disposal today. And he was paid a fraction by today's or yesterday's standard. Donoher always had great 3 point shooters but surely you realize only the last few years of his coaching career was that even a rule right? As far as JOB taking Donohers players to "the next level" - I always saw that as a group of players who underperformed for most of their career and really only one player one that team who really didn't buy into his style of coaching and that unfortunately was Negel Knight. And without his buy-in, you had no team since he was the point. Get your facts straight....the game didn't pass Donoher by- history, coaches and those who know better - know better. Posted via Mobile Device

Some of what you said is debatable, most of what you said is pure BS. Bill Uhl Jr., hitting 3 pointers, the team fast breaking and play quick hard core defense, give JOB the credit he deserves for that first year. He had them playing a game that Donoher never ever showed. Yeah, ok, Negele Knight was the problem, right. 25 years later and that's the first time I heard that fairytale. LOL.

Geez it happens in every sport, Coaches lose it, or more often the game changes and they can't keep up, it happens to all coaches including Don Donoher.

Donoher was a great basketball coach who's coaching success diminished. great coaches have bad years, great coaches that still have it don't have 5 bad year in a row.

Amazing how much people can't admit that a coach can get washed up. It happens to every single one of them and there no way you are going to convince me that Donoher had it in him to take this team to a direction that would have brought us to an enormous success that we didn't achieve because he was fired.

Donoher's career in a nutshell: Taking over for Tom Blackburn and continuing Dayton being a national Power for about 3 more years. Then his team was good enough to reach the NCAA for about 2 more years and getting knocked out in the first round, to having a stud like Donald Smith along with a sidekick of Mike Sylvester and could only get it done their senior years, to then getting an all-american like Jim Paxon and doing nothing with him to getting another stud who should've been an all-american like Velvet Chapman and again waiting until his senior year before they did anything to getting to the NCAA again a year later because of 2 JUCOs(Toney and Colbert) to becoming a perpetual loser for 4 seasons. His recruiting became pathetic.

DIMINISHING COACHING SKILLS. And diminishing coaching skills doesn't mean he forgot what he used to do, it means he couldn't keep up with the changing challenges and game. The game past him by. Nice try though.

As far as Majerus using Donoher's offense, that's great, Coaches that can't Coach anymore can turn into advisors, one thing I do know though, is Mejerus won because of his defense not his offense and that did not come from DD.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Some of what you said is debatable, most of what you said is pure BS. Bill Uhl Jr., hitting 3 pointers, the team fast breaking and play quick hard core defense, give JOB the credit he deserves for that first year. He had them playing a game that Donoher never ever showed. Yeah, ok, Negele Knight was the problem, right. 25 years later and that's the first time I heard that fairytale. LOL. Geez it happens in every sport, Coaches lose it, or more often the game changes and they can't keep up, it happens to all coaches including Don Donoher. Donoher was a great basketball coach who's coaching success diminished. great coaches have bad years, great coaches that still have it don't have 5 bad year in a row. Amazing how much people can't admit that a coach can get washed up. It happens to every single one of them and there no way you are going to convince me that Donoher had it in him to take this team to a direction that would have brought us to an enormous success that we didn't achieve because he was fired. Donoher's career in a nutshell: Taking over for Tom Blackburn and continuing Dayton being a national Power for about 3 more years. Then his team was good enough to reach the NCAA for about 2 more years and getting knocked out in the first round, to having a stud like Donald Smith along with a sidekick of Mike Sylvester and could only get it done their senior years, to then getting an all-american like Jim Paxon and doing nothing with him to getting another stud who should've been an all-american like Velvet Chapman and again waiting until his senior year before they did anything to getting to the NCAA again a year later because of 2 JUCOs(Toney and Colbert) to becoming a perpetual loser for 4 seasons. His recruiting became pathetic. DIMINISHING COACHING SKILLS. And diminishing coaching skills doesn't mean he forgot what he used to do, it means he couldn't keep up with the changing challenges and game. The game past him by. Nice try though. As far as Majerus using Donoher's offense, that's great, Coaches that can't Coach anymore can turn into advisors, one thing I do know though, is Mejerus won because of his defense not his offense and that did not come from DD.

You talk in circles loser - but nice try. As one other poster put it, Donoher had the 1990 team that JOB "took" - well skilled in the fundamentals. What you saw the next 4 years was all JOB (and I'm talking about "Epic Fail" JOB and a program so bad even competing local schools felt bad about UD's despair).

Really I think what JOB saw was just how cheap this university was when it came to resources and how difficult a head coaching job can be. JOB was .... well... Awful is the word that comes to mind. Because a good coach can win with limited resources. Enough said.
Posted via Mobile Device

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[rollo]

I just went through all the jobs posted on the UD Careers link and as I expected, every one of them came with something to the effect of: 'minimum 2 years research experience', 'minimum 3 years demonstrated...', 'minimum 3 years successful teaching experience'. And I find it comforting to know that our faculty and staff, before being hired, need to have experience doing what they are hired to do.

As an adjunct professor hoping to full-time some day, I was told that UD wouldn't give me a second thought until I had 5 years of successful teaching and evaluations behind me. And even then, there are no promises given or expected.

I wish the AD hired head coaches the same way the rest of the U hires their employees. Experienced. Successful.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by rollo I just went through all the jobs posted on the UD Careers link and as I expected, every one of them came with something to the effect of: 'minimum 2 years research experience', 'minimum 3 years demonstrated...', 'minimum 3 years successful teaching experience'. And I find it comforting to know that our faculty and staff, before being hired, need to have experience doing what they are hired to do. As an adjunct professor hoping to full-time some day, I was told that UD wouldn't give me a second thought until I had 5 years of successful teaching and evaluations behind me. And even then, there are no promises given or expected. I wish the AD hired head coaches the same way the rest of the U hires their employees. Experienced. Successful.

Come on rollo, if you want a coach with 5 years of pretty successful experience, then everybody and their brother is going to be looking at that guy, and if you want to land him, you are going to have to pay up.

Now, getting somebody with 2-3 years of pretty successful experience is probably doable. Would you be comfortable with hiring UD's next coach that had 2 or 3 years of head coaching experience with 2 or 3 NIT's? I think I personally would probably be comfortable hiring somebody like that. That's what OP's resume pretty much was when UD hired him.

I would have been comfortable with somebody like Jim Christian, 6 years at Kent State with 2 NCAA's and 3 NIT's, but Christian wasn't available I don't think. And I also would have been comfortable with somebody like Akron head coach Keith Dambrot, who has got 9 years at Akron with 3 NCAA's and 3 NIT's, but I'm not sure how people would react to his background. I think Dambrot would have been picked up by a BCS school a couple or a few years ago if it wasn't for his background, seems like he has been blackballed. He turned down the Duquesne job recently.

	Duquesne DUQUESNE Duquesne University is a private, coeducational university, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania located on 48 secluded acres, on a bluff above downtown. Founded in 1878 as a Catholic college by the Order of the Holy Spirit. It is the only Spiritan institution of higher education in the world. Duquesne offers 10 schools of study and 100 degree programs to 6,000 undergraduates and 3,800 graduate students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Dukes.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by ud2 Come on rollo, if you want a coach with 5 years of pretty successful experience, then everybody and their brother is going to be looking at that guy, and if you want to land him, you are going to have to pay up.

There are hundreds of successful, up-and-coming experienced head coaches out there who would mount the Golden Blender to become the next head coach at UD...I refuse to believe otherwise. If tOSU football can turn down Mason (Minnesota) and many others and hire Tressell from out of nowhere, UD hoops can certainly do the same.

The problem is either that (1) UD thinks they're too good to pull someone out of a small school/D2 ranks, or (2) thinks they're smarter than those who have done (1) and so quickly passed us up.

Neither is true.

Motto for the next coaching search: "No stone unturned"

[ud2]

Originally Posted by rollo There are hundreds of successful, up-and-coming experienced head coaches out there who would mount the Golden Blender to become the next head coach at UD...I refuse to believe otherwise. If tOSU football can turn down Mason (Minnesota) and many others and hire Tressell from out of nowhere, UD hoops can certainly do the same. The problem is either that (1) UD thinks they're too good to pull someone out of a small school/D2 ranks, or (2) thinks they're smarter than those who have done (1) and so quickly passed us up. Neither is true. Motto for the next coaching search: "No stone unturned"

No, now you are changing the argument. I never said I would not have hired somebody like Tressel, I am fine with hiring somebody like that. History seems to show that if somebody is successful at the d2 or d3 or NAIA level, then they will be successful at the d1 level. I said I would have been interested in somebody like Mike Lonergan, who was successful at the d3 level.

I'm not as sure about plucking somebody right out of the d2 or d3 or NAIA level with no d1 head coaching experience, but I would at least consider it.

Now, I think you may be right when you say that UD thinks it is smarter or better than everybody else when UD brings in these BCS assistants with no head coaching experience.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 You talk in circles loser - but nice try. As one other poster put it, Donoher had the 1990 team that JOB "took" - well skilled in the fundamentals. What you saw the next 4 years was all JOB (and I'm talking about "Epic Fail" JOB and a program so bad even competing local schools felt bad about UD's despair). Really I think what JOB saw was just how cheap this university was when it came to resources and how difficult a head coaching job can be. JOB was .... well... Awful is the word that comes to mind. Because a good coach can win with limited resources. Enough said. Posted via Mobile Device

Are you a relative of DDs? Because that's the only reason for you to get personal and call me a loser because I have a different POV than you.

To act like it's fact that Donoher would've done as good or better than JOB in 1990 is pure BS.

I get it, you're a Don Donoher worshipper. And of course a person will go to hell for criticizing him. So let's just revise history shall we?

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by ud2 I think an ex-player like shocka or dnutz would be the ones best suited to address the sideline profanity issue. I don't know if that is a problem or not or is unusual or not. I've heard of situations with at least one other d1 team involving at least one player cursing at the coaches in such a manner that the fans in the stands could hear what was going on.

Myself and DNutz had a coach in HS that was a "cusser". Pretty colorful a majority of the time when things weren't going well, and used for emphasis when things were going well. The big difference, is that it was directed at what a player did, and not at the player as a person. You might get yanked from a game and he may say "What the F are you doing out there?"..But there was never a "You F'n suck" or "F you"...My favorite was usually directed at one of our less than stellar PG's which was, "You are running around here like a three peckered billy goat, ****ing all over the floor".

My college coach was not a cusser, and most likely, if observed by the higher up's at the University swearing in an inappropriate manner, would have been dealt with by the AD. It wasn't accepted. Players did, and if you weren't careful, you may end up on a baseline if your mouth got out of hand as a player. But we also had grooming standards that included clean shaven, you could only wear issued uniform items such as the team shoe, issued socks, no shirts under jerseys...but that was accepted and that was how the program was ran. Players weren't getting in trouble off the court, because if you were a problem, you most likely couldn't deal with the standards of the coach.

Archie will act, and has shown, that he will act in a manner that is allowed and seen as acceptable by his bosses and fans. I have heard from mid level staff comments regarding his conduct on the sideline and how it is inappropriate. I sit the length of the court from the bench so I can't hear, but those that tell me about his mouth sit about 20 feet down from the bench. Shaka Smart is animated, jumping around, and yelling all game. That isn't the problem. The problem is when you have no direction, aren't just excited to be part of the game, and are yelling because you think it makes you more of an effective leader. Effective leaders don't sit up there and scream to scream...If a guy needs his rear jumped in, you do it...but you also build the guy back up. Maybe the actions of the coach have to do with a lack of confidence in the players, knowing that if yous screwed up, you were going to get a chewing. I played for a coach one time that I could see guys clam up when they got screamed at, and were more likely to make errors upon their return to the floor. You had to be tough mentally. The players aren't responding to AM and AM needs to figure out how to do that without looking like an asshat on the sidelines.

[Sea Bass]

IMO the reason DD was let go was because he had lost the players and they had tuned him out. The W/L record a symptom of the problem. He had not forgotten how to coach and the game had not passed him by but maybe the ability to relate to the young men had.

[jumpin' joe]

I have a lot of first hand knowledge of when DD was fired and JOB was hired. Many of the posts here which are supposedly fact are just not true. Frericks didn't fire Donoher. Brother Raymond Fitz did with the urging of Jesse Phillips (Board Chair) and others. Jim Paxson did not lead the search, but he was the one that got JOB an interview (Jim Paxson, Jr played for Jack Ramsay. Jack Ramsay's daughter was/is married to JOB). Bobby Huggins did apply, but was not granted an interview because of his known recruiting in the gray area. Six candidates were interviewed - Dan Hipsher, Ben Braun, Tom Apke, Randy Ayers, Scott Thompson, and JOB. Frericks was involved, but his heart wasn't in it. Frericks and DD were like brothers. Of course, they fought and disagreed like brothers do, but they were family. JOB was not in the committee's top three choices and that's where Paxson's influence came in. There is a lot more, but I think I'll stop now.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[jumpin' joe]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass IMO the reason DD was let go was because he had lost the players and they had tuned him out. The W/L record a symptom of the problem. He had not forgotten how to coach and the game had not passed him by but maybe the ability to relate to the young men had.

I mostly agree. It started with a couple players and spiraled out of control. The administration did offer DD to stay on if he would get new assistants. I think the Administration knew that DD, being the loyal person he was and a bit stubborn, would say no way. This is also why I'll never be a big fan of Negele Knight. Negele had injuries while playing for DD, but he only had a great half season in his career playing for JOB. IMO, Negele had an attitude issue with DD.

[jumpin' joe]

Originally Posted by Flyer2 So as far as I'm concerned Tom Frericks is the person responsible for the decline in UD basketball.

Nice quote considering today is the 22nd anniversary of Tom Frericks' death. To put it solely on Tom Frericks is just wrong. He should take some of the blame, but so should Brother Fitz, the Board of Trustees, Don Donoher, Jim O'Brien, Jim Paxson, Ted Kissell, Brian Gregory, Tim Wabler, etc. None of our current players were even born when Tom Frericks was alive. Heck, Archie Miller was still playing grade school ball when Tom Frericks died. I'm not saying Tom was perfect. In retrospect, he made some bad decisions (TV, slow to move to conference affiliation, and a poor coaching hire), but he was also the man responsible for getting the UD Arena built, bringing the NCAA games here, and ran a clean and successful program for more than 25 years. I certainly didn't hear a lot of complaining back then. It's just too easy to pick things apart now.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

	Ted Kissell TED KISSELL Athletic Director at the University of Dayton from 1993-2008. Helped spearhead a renewed commitment to athletic excellence by hiring Oliver Purnell to resurrect the men's basketball program, and emphasized major non-revenue sports to raise UD's profile. Helped UD receive an invitation to the A10 Conference, developed new baseball, softball, soccer, football, and basketball facility upgrades, and achieved NCAA appearances in men's basketball, men's and women's soccer, and volleyball -- the latter three being program's firsts. Also served as UD's Vice President and improved overall academic performance among student athletes.

	Tim Wabler TIM WABLER Current Director of Athletics for the University of Dayton. Took over for Ted Kissell on Jan. 1, 2009, and brings considerable experience and leadership in athletics. Assistant AD for many years and a former standout baseball player for the Flyers, Wabler has Dayton roots and understands the unique paradigm that makes Flyer athletics and the city of Dayton a tremendous relationship.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[CE80]

Originally Posted by jumpin' joe Nice quote considering today is the 22nd anniversary of Tom Frericks' death. To put it solely on Tom Frericks is just wrong. He should take some on the blame, but so should Brother Fitz, the Board of Trustees, Don Donoher, Jim O'Brien, Jim Paxson, Ted Kissell, Brian Gregory, Tim Wabler, etc. None of our current players were even born when Tom Frericks was alive. Heck, Archie Miller was still playing grade school ball when Tom Frericks died. I'm not saying Tom was perfect. In retrospect, he made some bad decisions (TV, slow to move to conference affiliation, and a poor coaching hire), but he was also the man responsible for getting the UD Arena built, bringing the NCAA games here, and ran a clean and successful program for more than 25 years. I certainly didn't hear a lot of complaining back then. It's just too easy to pick things apart now.

Amen. Let him rest in peace

There has been a load of time and people to get things right.
Posted via Mobile Device

[dnutz77]

Originally Posted by shocka43 Myself and DNutz had a coach in HS that was a "cusser". Pretty colorful a majority of the time when things weren't going well, and used for emphasis when things were going well. The big difference, is that it was directed at what a player did, and not at the player as a person. You might get yanked from a game and he may say "What the F are you doing out there?"..But there was never a "You F'n suck" or "F you"...My favorite was usually directed at one of our less than stellar PG's which was, "You are running around here like a three peckered billy goat, ****ing all over the floor".

My favorite quote happened after we experienced a 2 (I believe) game losing streak. We had a team meeting and he started it by saying, "Right now I'm lower than rattle snake **** in wagon wheel tracks".

Seriously, where did he come up with some of the stuff he said? You can't make this **** up!!

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Are you a relative of DDs? Because that's the only reason for you to get personal and call me a loser because I have a different POV than you. To act like it's fact that Donoher would've done as good or better than JOB in 1990 is pure BS. I get it, you're a Don Donoher worshipper. And of course a person will go to hell for criticizing him. So let's just revise history shall we?

History speaks for itself with respect to Donoher. You point to JOB "and the great job he did with Donohers players" and how he "allowed them to play up-tempo ball with Bill Uhl Jr. hitting 3's". I say they underperformed their Soph and Junior years (and I have it from several sources close to the program then, those guys gave up trying for Donoher their Junior year); those 6 seniors were freshmen about all the same time; people tend to forget that fact. So the "bad" first year you talk about, was Donoher leading primarily a group of freshmen to a .500 record.

We could argue all day long about the game passing DD by. But I recall Si Burick (a Hall of Fame sports writer for the DDN - in case you didn't know him) writing several pieces about the DD firing fiasco and coaches across the country were calling Si and questioning him about UD's wisdom; coaches like John Wooden, Bob Knight, Denny Crum, Dean Smith, you know, THOSE Hall of Fame guys. Believe what you want to believe; but that poor decision to fire Donoher, haunts the U of D to this day in my opinion.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 History speaks for itself with respect to Donoher. You point to JOB "and the great job he did with Donohers players" and how he "allowed them to play up-tempo ball with Bill Uhl Jr. hitting 3's". I say they underperformed their Soph and Junior years (and I have it from several sources close to the program then, those guys gave up trying for Donoher their Junior year); those 6 seniors were freshmen about all the same time; people tend to forget that fact. So the "bad" first year you talk about, was Donoher leading primarily a group of freshmen to a .500 record. We could argue all day long about the game passing DD by. But I recall Si Burick (a Hall of Fame sports writer for the DDN - in case you didn't know him) writing several pieces about the DD firing fiasco and coaches across the country were calling Si and questioning him about UD's wisdom; coaches like John Wooden, Bob Knight, Denny Crum, Dean Smith, you know, THOSE Hall of Fame guys. Believe what you want to believe; but that poor decision to fire Donoher, haunts the U of D to this day in my opinion.

Coaches taking up for their own. What a novelty. Find me one Coach that will say about another "he was great in his time, but the game past him by." Will never happen, not because this situation doesn't exist, but because coaches don't want to acknowledge that kind of vulnerability might exist in themselves someday, and because friends just don't do that to friends.

It was very easy for perennial ncaa coaches to put down UD for firing a coach while their own teams are putting up 25 wins a season. Actually ****es me off because what they really are saying is "hey we expect 25 wins a year, but c'mon, you're Dayton, you should be content with 15 win seasons".

Donoher was a great coach for his time. But the success of the Flyers was a downturning graph from the time he started. He was a great coach and a lousy recuiter. Now there's some logic to this. Because up until about 12 years into the Donoher years, college teams recruited mostly from around home. He was very good at this, but things changed, and 18 year olds looked at college as an opportunity to see other things, be other places etc. This is where he suffered the most.

Donoher's best coaching was the master of the upset win early in his career but it kept happening less and less toward the time he was let go. I remember that seen of DD high fiving everyone he could find, leaping in the air after the Chappy to Young shot against Depaul. The same exact situation could've happened (probably did really) 15 years earlier and he would've acted like he'd been there before and been more reserved. But UD basketball went from upsetting great teams and watching your coach walk off the court with the same expression as had his team lost, to a guy that celebrated like he was at a greek wedding because he was starved for that kind of game.

And back to 1990. If that team had played the same slow, methodical style as DD and been as successful, I would say you have a point, there must have been some bad attitudes toward DD and the team wouldn't play for him. But that 1990 team played like nothing I ever saw from UD in the prior. And did with Donoher's players. Maybe these players actually had a legitimate beef since the style they suceeded with was not Donoher's.

I really appreciate Donoher's years here, and I also appreciate Purnell's. If you tell me you think Flyer Basketball would've been better off over the years had we held on to Donoher and never hired Purnell, well, I just have to tell you that you need to take the blinders off.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[IAFlyer]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 History speaks for itself with respect to Donoher. You point to JOB "and the great job he did with Donohers players" and how he "allowed them to play up-tempo ball with Bill Uhl Jr. hitting 3's". I say they underperformed their Soph and Junior years (and I have it from several sources close to the program then, those guys gave up trying for Donoher their Junior year); those 6 seniors were freshmen about all the same time; people tend to forget that fact. So the "bad" first year you talk about, was Donoher leading primarily a group of freshmen to a .500 record. We could argue all day long about the game passing DD by. But I recall Si Burick (a Hall of Fame sports writer for the DDN - in case you didn't know him) writing several pieces about the DD firing fiasco and coaches across the country were calling Si and questioning him about UD's wisdom; coaches like John Wooden, Bob Knight, Denny Crum, Dean Smith, you know, THOSE Hall of Fame guys. Believe what you want to believe; but that poor decision to fire Donoher, haunts the U of D to this day in my opinion.

I firmly believe it was mishandled. I think it could have been done, better, smarter, etc.

It was likely time to move on, but how things are done matters as well.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 And back to 1990. If that team had played the same slow, methodical style as DD and been as successful, I would say you have a point, there must have been some bad attitudes toward DD and the team wouldn't play for him. But that 1990 team played like nothing I ever saw from UD in the prior. And did with Donoher's players. Maybe these players actually had a legitimate beef since the style they suceeded with was not Donoher's. I really appreciate Donoher's years here, and I also appreciate Purnell's. If you tell me you think Flyer Basketball would've been better off over the years had we held on to Donoher and never hired Purnell, well, I just have to tell you that you need to take the blinders off.

And you do realize that it wasn't Oliver Purnell that coached the 1990 team, right? It was Jim O'Brien that took over after Donoher; now, I'm not going to even call him by his affectionate initials as most over the years can't stand to spell his full name so they substitute "JOB" for "Jim O'Brien" and everyone gets it; not sure you do - so when I say "JOB" I don't mean job, I mean JIM O'BRIEN. Oliver Purnell was hired AFTER Jim O'Brien destroyed the UD program after 5 long, long years, in 1995. Ironic that you can only remember O'Brien's "great 1990 team" but conveniently forget the next 4 miserable years. Maybe there's a reason the 1990 did so well and had absolutely nothing to do with Donoher or O'Brien....

Those players in my opinion (the great 1990 team as you put it), were actually 11-9 at one point at mid season. And it's almost like a switch went off about that time when, I believe Gary Nuhn, a sports writer for the DDN wrote an article where Dan Hipshire (former Donoher assistant coach), now an assistant or possibly even head coach at Akron IIRC, was quoted after being asked if he was surprised at the current Jim O'Brien led UD Flyers being 11-9 - as saying something to the effect: "well, I'm really quite surprised that they don't have a much better record; after all, it was supposedly our coaching and not them as players for the reason of poor performance" (SIC). I honestly believe those players read those comments and turned it on like they had never done in their lives to prove the problem was Donoher, and not them. And again, it makes perfect sense to me, as I had heard a lot of rhetoric on campus about them giving up on Donoher as players. I credit Hipshire almost more than O'Brien for that "magical run". We'll just have to agree to disagree. You say the coaching fraternity as you put it, stands up for it's own. I disagree. I very rarely see the coaching club stand up for one of it's own unless they truly see an idiotic move (firing) made because of players on the team being unhappy. But it's always easier to fire a coach than 13-14 players huh?

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[jack72]

I started at UD in '68 and remember thinking, why isn't UD getting some better players. We just had a runner up finish in the NCAA and an NIT title. I and friends would go to the North South Ohio HS game every year, and wonder why does UD not have any of the great talent in the game. Finally when Smith, Sylvester and Kill showed up in the game, I thought UD finally got the cream. That was it, that one year. The recruiting was not there. After Janke and Gotschalls it was slim pickin's.

Wonder what ever happened to Jack "I will shoot every time I touch the ball" Kill?

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by jack72 I started at UD in '68 and remember thinking, why isn't UD getting some better players. We just had a runner up finish in the NCAA and an NIT title. I and friends would go to the North South Ohio HS game every year, and wonder why does UD not have any of the great talent in the game. Finally when Smith, Sylvester and Kill showed up in the game, I thought UD finally got the cream. That was it, that one year. The recruiting was not there. After Janke and Gotschalls it was slim pickin's. Wonder what ever happened to Jack "I will shoot every time I touch the ball" Kill?

I hope it's not YOU!

[jack72]

Not me. Kill had more talent in one hand than I have in my whole body. He was a Freshman in '71-'72 and dropped out after that year.

[jumpin' joe]

Jack Kill was a gunner. Interesting to watch when he was playing at the same time Donald Smith was on the court. Kill would intentionally throw passes a bit behind Smith just so Smith wouldn't get ahead of Kill and shoot. Honest truth. I wish there was some game film available to prove my point.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 And you do realize that it wasn't Oliver Purnell that coached the 1990 team, right? It was Jim O'Brien that took over after Donoher; now, I'm not going to even call him by his affectionate initials as most over the years can't stand to spell his full name so they substitute "JOB" for "Jim O'Brien" and everyone gets it; not sure you do - so when I say "JOB" I don't mean job, I mean JIM O'BRIEN. Oliver Purnell was hired AFTER Jim O'Brien destroyed the UD program after 5 long, long years, in 1995. Ironic that you can only remember O'Brien's "great 1990 team" but conveniently forget the next 4 miserable years. Maybe there's a reason the 1990 did so well and had absolutely nothing to do with Donoher or O'Brien.... Those players in my opinion (the great 1990 team as you put it), were actually 11-9 at one point at mid season. And it's almost like a switch went off about that time when, I believe Gary Nuhn, a sports writer for the DDN wrote an article where Dan Hipshire (former Donoher assistant coach), now an assistant or possibly even head coach at Akron IIRC, was quoted after being asked if he was surprised at the current Jim O'Brien led UD Flyers being 11-9 - as saying something to the effect: "well, I'm really quite surprised that they don't have a much better record; after all, it was supposedly our coaching and not them as players for the reason of poor performance" (SIC). I honestly believe those players read those comments and turned it on like they had never done in their lives to prove the problem was Donoher, and not them. And again, it makes perfect sense to me, as I had heard a lot of rhetoric on campus about them giving up on Donoher as players. I credit Hipshire almost more than O'Brien for that "magical run". We'll just have to agree to disagree. You say the coaching fraternity as you put it, stands up for it's own. I disagree. I very rarely see the coaching club stand up for one of it's own unless they truly see an idiotic move (firing) made because of players on the team being unhappy. But it's always easier to fire a coach than 13-14 players huh?

Okay, let me just say that I'm fully aware that JOB was sandwiched between DD and OP. And I'll acknowledge that he did a terrible job here when it came to recruiting and getting anything out of those recruits. I'm really just saying that his style of coaching seemed to work with Donoher's recruits. It's really odd. And a fluke. But his style of play was made for the the changing era, he just couldn't find his own talent to perform it. To this day I'm amazed that those players from 1990 could excel at that style.

But my point about OP is he took over a very bad team and built it to the best we've seen since since 1985. I just believe that Donoher would've wallowed in 15 win seasons if he would've stayed and either OP would've taken over from him or someone else would but it's hard to imagine that Donoher's 15 wins over JOB's 4 or 5 wins a season would have led to better things in the long run.

To say that firing DD destroyed the program seems to me you're saying UD basketball would be in a better place today if it didn't happen. I believe it made the road a little bit longer, but OP got us to as good of point as we would've gotten regardless and what's hurting the program today was that we didn't hire the right guy after him.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by jumpin' joe Jack Kill was a gunner. Interesting to watch when he was playing at the same time Donald Smith was on the court. Kill would intentionally throw passes a bit behind Smith just so Smith wouldn't get ahead of Kill and shoot. Honest truth. I wish there was some game film available to prove my point.

Jack Killinger is a name that really is a blast from the past. Was there another Jack around the same time or earlier who was a tall (6'9 maybe) skinny redhead? Or is Killinger the guy I'm thinking of?

[jumpin' joe]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Jack Killinger is a name that really is a blast from the past. Was there another Jack around the same time or earlier who was a tall (6'9 maybe) skinny redhead? Or is Killinger the guy I'm thinking of?

Jack Keehan was the redhead.
I found this picture from 1994. He was inducted into his high school's hall of fame.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by jumpin' joe Jack Keehan was the redhead. I found this picture from 1994. He was inducted into his high school's hall of fame.

Thanks. Maybe if he'd have carried that kind of bulk 22 years earlier he could've made more of a contribution lol

While we're going back to those days, can you or anybody, educate me on what was the issues with Rudy Waterman and Glinder Terraine? I remember in 1968 Donoher moved them both to a permanent position on the end of the bench. And from what I can see from the year before, they were big part of the team that finished runner up. What was the story?

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[T-Bone 84]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass IMO the reason DD was let go was because he had lost the players and they had tuned him out. The W/L record a symptom of the problem. He had not forgotten how to coach and the game had not passed him by but maybe the ability to relate to the young men had.

Also, IIRC, Donoher had lost a son to the relatively new scourge of HIV/AIDS in the late 80's, and knowing the kind of man he was/is, I wondered at that time if that hadn't preyed on his mind to the point that he lost interest and/or focus. Back then, I thought it was too bad that he couldn't have taken a "sabbatical" as some profs do when they have issues in their lives.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[Flyer 86]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass I said I have no first hand knowledge about Alex. Was is true is Alex is more skilled and more mobile than any other Flyer big guy. He can make a perimeter shot, he can turn to either shoulder inside (he prefers using his left hand) and he can move his feet better and sets better screens in IMO. I see no reason on the surface that Alex rarely gets a shot. I realize that injuries have been a factor. I would love to see him get an opportunity because it is possible he could stretch the floor.

I agree entirely.

By deduction there are only a few possibilities why he doesn't get minutes and they are:

1. not strong enough/tough enough in practice to rebound and push around big guys

2. AM had his hopes on Kavs, Scott and Jalen

3. The concussion set Alex back

4. Or he simply doesn't work hard enough in practice or behind the scenes.

Kid has skills , and I'd like to see more of him by cutting Scott's minutes a bunch.

[TommyGola]

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 Also, IIRC, Donoher had lost a son to the relatively new scourge of HIV/AIDS in the late 80's, and knowing the kind of man he was/is, I wondered at that time if that hadn't preyed on his mind to the point that he lost interest and/or focus. Back then, I thought it was too bad that he couldn't have taken a "sabbatical" as some profs do when they have issues in their lives.

T-Bone: This is precisely my thought as well. I do believe his son's battle with AIDS was consuming his time and thoughts. He simply could not focus on changes in the game given his son's deteriorating condition.

[jumpin' joe]

I can't imagine the pain of losing a son and then getting fired from your long-time job just eight months later.

[jumpin' joe]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 While we're going back to those days, can you or anybody, educate me on what was the issues with Rudy Waterman and Glinder Terraine? I remember in 1968 Donoher moved them both to a permanent position on the end of the bench. And from what I can see from the year before, they were big part of the team that finished runner up. What was the story?

I think John C wrote an article about it on UD Pride, but I can't seem to find it. My recollection is that there was growing rift between the two black players (Rudy Waterman and Glinder Torain) and the rest of the team.
Near the end of the season, talk show host Phil Donohue moderated a forum at UD and Waterman just took off on his teammates. Waterman was benched for the rest of the season. I believe Donoher and Waterman patched things up years later.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[Chris R]

Those last 3-4 years, Donoher's teams were quite inadequate. In any other context, in any other circumstance, had I asked you if it was possible -- nevermind even probable -- that one player could dump 65pts on Donoher's defense, you would have bet against it with every last dollar to your name. You would have said Donoher would have personally run onto the court himself and broken the guy's arms before he got to 40pts. But things like that started happening.

Notre Dame fired Digger Phelps 2yrs after UD fired Donoher. Digger was as big or bigger in South Bend and had far more consistent success. He had 14 NCAAs in 20 years. Beat the #1 team seven times. Ranked in the Top-15 most years. They just honored Digger last week in the Convo Center with some ring of honor thing. It was a slobbering love affair. But nobody said Digger should have coached another 15yrs.

Seasons change. The leaves turn. Its a cycle of life and coaching. I dont see what the big deal is. Takes nothing away from the legends. They are legends forever.

Incidentally, I watched the ND feed of the Phelps reception at the Convo where they had some meet and greet before the banner ceremony, and I tried to see if I could spot Donoher. Dont know if they have kept in touch, but they had mutual respect for one another as one of the 4 Great Independents. Digger has on more than one occasion name-dropped Don Donoher in his telecasts when talking about basketball. Bob Knight worked ESPN with Digger so I figured they were friends, so if Bob showed up (which might be pushing it), maybe Donoher showed up.

I did see where ESPNs Rece Davis came up behind Digger and put his arms around him and said guess who. When Digger turned around he wept like a woman. Rece told him ESPN promised to send one of the crew and he drew the short straw.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by jumpin' joe I think John C wrote an article about it on UD Pride, but I can't seem to find it. My recollection is that there was growing rift between the two black players (Rudy Waterman and Glinder Torain) and the rest of the team. Near the end of the season, talk show host Phil Donohue moderated a forum at UD and Waterman just took off on his teammates. Waterman was benched for the rest of the season. I believe Donoher and Waterman patched things up years later.

Thanks. After I asked the question, I did some googling on Rudy and Glinder and got some answers including the some from here I believe.

That got me thinking. What kind of damage that must have done, or could've done when it came to recruiting black players after that. So if my memory is correct, George Jackson was the very next black player for the Flyers 2 years later. I remember him as a rebounder somewhat in the Perryman category and a free throwshooter in the Pollard category. But he also must have been some sort of savior for UD basketball because it must have been priority #1 to get black players to come to UD after the Waterman/Terraine situations. JD Grigsby was there too, don't remember if he was the same year as Jackson or a year later, but without the Flyers getting those two, they probably wouldn't have gotten Donald Smith, then Alan Ellija and then Johnny Davis. This would've set the program back worse than anything JOB could've done.

Just a thought, not really relevant at all to the thread, but do you remember anything about Jackson maybe being thought of as kind a recruiting PR move because I'm thinking it had to be somewhat.

[Atlantic 10]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Thanks. After I asked the question, I did some googling on Rudy and Glinder and got some answers including the some from here I believe. That got me thinking. What kind of damage that must have done, or could've done when it came to recruiting black players after that. So if my memory is correct, George Jackson was the very next black player for the Flyers 2 years later. I remember him as a rebounder somewhat in the Perryman category and a free throwshooter in the Pollard category. But he also must have been some sort of savior for UD basketball because it must have been priority #1 to get black players to come to UD after the Waterman/Terraine situations. JD Grigsby was there too, don't remember if he was the same year as Jackson or a year later, but without the Flyers getting those two, they probably wouldn't have gotten Donald Smith, then Alan Ellija and then Johnny Davis. This would've set the program back worse than anything JOB could've done. Just a thought, not really relevant at all to the thread, but do you remember anything about Jackson maybe being thought of as kind a recruiting PR move because I'm thinking it had to be somewhat.

George came out of Junior college,played at Roth in Dayton. Ken May and George played against each other both coming out in 67 in the City League. Thats when the City League was tough

[Atlantic 10]

Originally Posted by jumpin' joe I think John C wrote an article about it on UD Pride, but I can't seem to find it. My recollection is that there was growing rift between the two black players (Rudy Waterman and Glinder Torain) and the rest of the team. Near the end of the season, talk show host Phil Donohue moderated a forum at UD and Waterman just took off on his teammates. Waterman was benched for the rest of the season. I believe Donoher and Waterman patched things up years later.

May and Waterman never got along, didnt like it because May got the spotlight. There was altercation in the locker room between the 2

[kiefaber455]

Originally Posted by Atlantic 10 May and Waterman never got along, didnt like it because May got the spotlight. There was altercation in the locker room between the 2

Was at UD from '66 to '70 and lived in Founders my sophomore year next door to May and Hooper. That's the first I've ever heard of any type of altercation between May and Waterman.

[jack72]

Originally Posted by Atlantic 10 May and Waterman never got along, didnt like it because May got the spotlight. There was altercation in the locker room between the 2

A10 what is your source of info on the altercation?