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  #1  
Old 09-04-2011, 11:45 AM
comebackkids0708 comebackkids0708 is offline
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Doug Harris

UDDoug writes:

"It is not the DDN role to promote UD football. The football program receives coverage that is in line with community interest. By the way, Harriss does not determine the amount of newshole devoted to Flyer football. He can write all you want, it isn't going to see the light of day. Cox isn't going to pay him to do it, spend money on ink or newsprint, or on badwidth to publish online."
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Good start to season, like usual RMU beat themselves more than UD beat RMU but that's fine in my book, a W is a W. Duquesne better than the score with Bucknell reflects and is darn good like DetroitFlyer elluded to.

UDDoug, good point...ok not so much. They let Mr. Harris post an update on Brian Gregory. Why?

Also, it's 11:25AM on Sunday morning after a game, not a scrimmage a game, in which the Flyers beat a scholarship opponent who went to the playoffs last year. However I have yet to see an article on DDN website about it(I'm guessing it's because they ran out of money to publish online, right Doug?) But don't worry Flyer fans at 11:27PM on Saturday, long after the UD vs RMU game was done Mr. Harris & DDN/Cox made sure they posted an article, a lengthy one at that, about a kid the UD basketball team is interested in and how Wisconsin told him no and is going to take a Walk-on. Then of course talk about Dayton high school kids UD is interested in. Mr. Harris has a blog on DDN.com, the last 12 (which I stopped counting after that) entires have been about UD basketball. Would it hurt to make it a 2:1 ratio? For every 2 entries of UD bball you put in 1 about UD football. Instead we hear about how a bball player who is working his way back from mono. It's football season Doug!


I don't want DDN to "promote" UD football although it might actually help attendance if there was some light shined on the program, just a little bit. I just want DDN and Doug to actually write about them. When Bucky Albers was covering it, he seemed a lot more interested in UD football which is what I think it all comes down to. Don't blame it on community interest.
Not wanting to get into a continuous p*ssing match about this, and I've said what I wanted to say. If anything us fans can keep coming here to read about UD football thanks to guys and gals like DetroitFlyer, Jmitch, CharlieB, FlyerGramps, ChrisR etc. True Flyers!
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  #2  
Old 09-04-2011, 01:51 PM
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Why are we complaining about DDN football coverage on the Internet,It's 1.47 PM SUNDAY, DDN has the UD Football PREVIEW. Hay they do have a little Box with the score of yesterday's game.
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Old 09-04-2011, 03:01 PM
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Albers' Era

Isn't it true that when Albers was the Flyers beat writer we were drawing 4000-6000 to games? Why then and not now I don't know. The teams have been as good, the opposition is essentially the same, alternatives appear to be the same, Welcome has been spruced up.

Something has changed...I've never understood why attendance has fallen off by about 50%. It's good, wholesome entertainment.
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Old 09-04-2011, 03:36 PM
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Seems to be internet news not paper news

I was wrong, again! Other Ohio cities carried the story. Akron carried a story about the Flyer win:




Saturday, 03 September 2011 15:00 Dayton extends streak over Robert Morris 19-13

Written by Administrator
Authors:



MOON TOWNSHIP, Pa. (AP) -- Dayton extended its winning streak over Robert Morris to nine games in a 19-13 victory Saturday in the season opener for both teams.
The Flyers, who won a share of the Pioneer Football League title year ago, have not allowed more than 14 points in a game to the Colonials during the streak. Dayton's defense made the difference Saturday, forcing two turnovers and sacking Robert Morris quarterback Jeff Sinclair eight times.
Dayton also struggled offensively and was outgained by the Colonials of the Northeast Conference 237 yards to 233. A 5-yard run by Sinclair gave the Colonials a 7-6 lead in the second quarter, but Dayton responded with 13 straight points. A 27-yard pass from Will Bardo to Luke Bellman and two field goals from Nate Miller gave the Flyers a 19-7 lead. Robert Morris' only other score came on a 1-yard run by Jamar Cromwell with 5:54 to play.


It was also on USA Today college football site:


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colle...Top+Stories%29
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Old 09-04-2011, 07:58 PM
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The DDN does not want to cover UD football because the vast majority of people in Dayton don't car about it. It is really pretty simple. They get very few complaints about lack of coverage. When attendance is what it is and few read the little coverage in print or online they aren't going to waste their time. Interest has declined since D3 and the early days of Pioneer and coverage with it.
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Old 09-04-2011, 09:02 PM
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Reporting vs. Promoting

Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
The DDN does not want to cover UD football because the vast majority of people in Dayton don't car about it. It is really pretty simple. They get very few complaints about lack of coverage. When attendance is what it is and few read the little coverage in print or online they aren't going to waste their time. Interest has declined since D3 and the early days of Pioneer and coverage with it.
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We understand that UD football is not a big issue with the DDN. But to not cover a game, the first of a season, is also an injustice to their readers who may not want to know very much but do expect game coverage. IMO, today was an insult to the University of Dayton by not reporting on a football game regardless of any reasons you ever posted on this Forum. Reporting on a game is not promoting the sport it's reporting an event!

Next week will be better. The Duke coach will agree to be interviewed after the game by the newspaper (Coach Joe Walton turned down Doug last year). And there may be some magic left in this Flyer group to write about. At least during this heat the pickle story could be brought up again; or maybe the beginning of a 4-year QB career?
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Old 09-04-2011, 09:50 PM
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In the print edition there was a small Flyer game story at the bottom of page 9. It was a reprint from someone else - not original. They don't send reporters to cover away games anymore - except Arch was at the cheating Buckeyes game in Columbus.
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Old 09-05-2011, 02:09 AM
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The DDN no longer has a dedicated Bengals or Browns or Reds beat writer. Covering UD football may have gotten the axe too. Newspapers are dying. The DDN has been cutting costs (including UDPride) over the last few years to try to stay afloat. Sometimes stories arent written because of a lack of interest. Other times its purely economics. I think UD football is a combination of both.

The dead-end PFL and lack of an auto bid to the FCS playoffs has been killing the program for 15 years. In the DIII days, fans bought into the chance that UD could make a run at a national title in something. Even if UD has no prayer against the Top FCS scholly programs, just getting in the playoffs and perhaps springing a huge upset in the first round would have kept fans interested.

Unfortunately just walking around with PFL titles rings hollow to anyone outside the city limits. Its like an NIT bid. Nobody cares except those involved.

Had UD still been DIII and competing with Mt. Union, Whitewater, Widener, et al, I believe attendance would be 50%+ higher than what it is now, back in the 5-6K range, not the 3-4K range. It was forced upon UD and I realize they had no choice.

The only way UD football will ever see an uptick in interest is if one of two things happens: the PFL gets the auto-bid, or UD goes partial scholly.

And the last option in that list aint gonna happen.
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Old 09-05-2011, 07:08 AM
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Well then,..

....there's hope for improved interest. Aren't there solid plans (DF?) for a PFL petition for an FCS auto-bid? IF so, when?

Hope so....and soon.
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Old 09-05-2011, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
The DDN does not want to cover UD football because the vast majority of people in Dayton don't car about it. It is really pretty simple. They get very few complaints about lack of coverage. When attendance is what it is and few read the little coverage in print or online they aren't going to waste their time. Interest has declined since D3 and the early days of Pioneer and coverage with it.
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I have been shot down in the past for saying that interest was higher when we were in a playoff system but this certainly supports that view.
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Old 09-05-2011, 10:21 AM
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Couldn't agree more FlyerGramps. And UACFlyer while it's tough to prove a strong connection you have to think that the amount of coverage UD Fball had with Bucky Albers played a part in higher attendance. Lets be honest we weren't playing tOSU or Michigan back then either.

I'm tired of hearing they won't print or post it because of lack of interest. Please tell me how there's more people that are "interested" in a Top Senior Bowler calling his late wife a guardian angel then there are in UD football, which was on DDN Sports, and still no report on UD vs RMU game. Much respect to Mr. Mohr and his late wife because I know it's not them who isn't reporting on the game, but Doug how can you sit there and say the reason stories aren't published or posted is because noone cares. I could send you a list of (500+) people who are more interested in reading about UD football, and that's without even trying. You'll never win the argument that more people want to read about a non-star bball player coming back from mono, or that BG is doing good update than they do about UD Fball, during football season. Do the math, the football team has them most participants than any other program. You figure on average there are 3-4 people(low ball figure) connected with every player that could read about them via internet. Also on average there's 15-25 seniors every year. Over the course of 20 years, that's quite a few graduates, and that's just football players. Just doing that math you'd have more readers/interested people for an article on UD football then you do for half the crap DDN posts. Unlike Mr. Harris there's alot of alumni, whether they played football or not who actually care about their school and want to read up on it, sports included.

Chris R to your post. Forget the beat writer title. What the heck is Mr. Harris doing on September 3, 2011 that he couldn't manage an article about the UD Game. I bet if UD basketball played a pick-up game at the REC gym on campus he'd be there covering every aspect. The PFL title rings hollow, like a NIT bid???? Sounds familiar. Last time I checked our bball program wasn't mowing down the field in the NCAA tourney, difference is they still get articles about them every week, and then some. I don't disagree with you on what has transpired over the years and what needs to happen, but do people not see the full circle of things. More coverage locally, gets more fans talking, gets more fans in the stands. An auto-bid for the PFL isn't far away, I'd say 2 maybe 3 years max. Screw a petition for auto-bid lets get one together to get Doug Harris fired or get a more interested writer. If Libya can over throw Ghadafi we can do the same to a local sports writer, agreed? The City of Dayton is declining and the university is about all it has left, in fact it's probably the most well known thing in Dayton now, to Flyer Gramps' point it's an insult to the university for not reporting the game. More powerful person in Dayton...Dan Curran or whoever the heck is in charge at DDN?

Wonder if Archie Miller told Doug to write an article about the game he would, I'm sure he'd ask how many pages he wanted it to be.

Mark my words. If UD goes undefeated this year they will make the playoffs. I just hope the city of Dayton and beyond knows about it because they obviously won't if we leave it up to Doug Harris.

Ok maybe now I've said all I wanted, probably not though.
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  #12  
Old 09-05-2011, 10:45 AM
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Doug's Next 10-week Challenge

Doug Harris has always been kind in writing about football players incl. families. He's been kind to mine.

But like a boss told me more than a half century ago - "you do good work, just not enough of it".

Doug didn't do enough last Saturday. He can improve the next ten.

Let's Go DDN. Let's Go Flyers. Take a break Archie. Lets Go Doug.

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Old 09-05-2011, 11:11 AM
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Nobody was going to pay to send him to the game. How do you write about it. From game tracker or radio. He writes what he is assigned to cover. Tahr isn't out of town UD football games.
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Old 09-05-2011, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
Nobody was going to pay to send him to the game. How do you write about it. From game tracker or radio. He writes what he is assigned to cover. Tahr isn't out of town UD football games.
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Agree, he writes what he is assigned to cover. He is assigned to cover UD sports. UD football, volleyball, soccer have all been more successful of late than UD basketball, yet they don't get the press that they deserve. I understand that BBall is king in Dayton. I understand that tOSU is king in Ohio Fball. That doesn't mean that the other sports should be ignored. I gave up on the DDN and Doug Harris years ago.

If a "fill the inbox" campaign is initiated, I will gladly participate. I personally don't think that the DDN is worth the paper it is printed on. But it might be fun to send Doug multiple emails each day just to be an annoyance.
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Old 09-05-2011, 12:27 PM
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More people would rather read about a UD basketball players pet Iguana than read about UD football. That's the reality. You are way overselling the appeal of the sport. I love UD soccer. No other sport at UD has come close to the success. But nobody cares about UD soccer aside from a handful of people an that includes the UD Pride audience. I know this because the views on soccer articles are 1/5th if what they are for Swampy writing about playing a pickup basketball game with Hoops Malone. Me writing about soccer isn't enough to change the interest.

The DDN has limited resources. They are not going to devote time and money to areas with little interest.

By the way, bowling is the second highest rated sport on television after NASCAR. You could write about a bowlers pet iguana and it would get 10x the readership as a UD football postgame recap.

None if this is a reflection of UD footballs success. It just is what it is.
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Old 09-05-2011, 01:17 PM
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It's negative people like YOU, that make stupid statements like you just made that is the problem with UD Football. I just hope this is your opinion and not really true of the sports minded fans of Dayton.
Your quote.
(More people would rather read about a UD basketball players pet Iguana than read about UD football. That's the reality. You are way overselling the appeal of the sport. )
If this statement is true,---in my Opinion Dayton is one sorry city,they won't support their own College team????? Football is KING all over the United States,but not in Dayton ? that's a real shame. Maybe a concentrated effort by the DDN and other college officials can help sell the product.More people interested, it would think the DDN would have more subscribers? potentially ??
Maybe the DDN has 100 % coverage and doesn't need more readers ??
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Old 09-05-2011, 01:31 PM
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Your other quote

By the way, bowling is the second highest rated sport on television after NASCAR. You could write about a bowlers pet iguana and it would get 10x the readership as a UD football postgame recap.

Your telling me NASCAR and bowling are rated more than televised Football , Baseball and Basketball ????? Come On Chris get real,Maybe that's the way it's rated IN YOUR MIND. You must be a real Football hater to make such a statement like that.
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Old 09-05-2011, 01:40 PM
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Charlie B.,

Not sure where you are coming from, but it appears that you have your head in the sand concerning UD football. All you have to do is look at attendance and realize that people just don't care. There are more people in the stands for a typical high school football game. Do these statements make me negative? No, just truthful.
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Old 09-05-2011, 05:39 PM
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3K in the stands does not support the nobody cares claim....
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Old 09-05-2011, 08:01 PM
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Actually jmitch, while his coverage is UD athletics he is still directed what to cover within that realm. People are barking up the wrong tree. Their beef is more with editorial management. Decisions on what sees print and the budget for out of town coverage is made there and not by a writer.

In terms of newspaper coverage 3k in the stands is nobody. Many high schools from the Cincinnati to Dayton area draw more than that.
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Old 09-05-2011, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Charlie B View Post
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Your telling me NASCAR and bowling are rated more than televised Football , Baseball and Basketball ????? Come On Chris get real,Maybe that's the way it's rated IN YOUR MIND. You must be a real Football hater to make such a statement like that.
UD vs. Robert Morris is not the same as Alabama vs. Florida. Most UD basketball fans would rather run home to watch Bama/Fla than they would go to a UD football game, just like most UD basketball fans would rather go to the dentist for a root canal than sit at Baujan Field for 10 minutes watching college soccer. Does that stop me from continuing to support the UD soccer teams? No. I dont go and write recaps to appease the UDPride audience. Hardly anyone reads them. I do it for myself and the players/coaches. If I was writing articles based on pages read, Id have stopped writing about it years ago. If people dont want to show up and attend, thats their business.

For the most part, nobody cares about anything but UD basketball. I have been doing this gig for 15 years. I know a thing or two about the UD audience.

This doesnt have anything to do with the great student athletes playing these sports at UD, their commitment, etc, etc. Its not about being unappreciative, its about being un-interested. Those are two different things.

98% of general football fans that graduated from UD would rather sit at home and watch Ohio State on TV than get in their car and go to a UD football game. Most would rather go to a Friday night HS game pitting the GWOC against the GCL where 10,000 people show up so they can watch their friend's, cousin's, step-daughter's kid play three downs in the 4th quarter.

Unfortunately thats the reality.

The same argument can be made about UD womens basketball. How many womens games did everyone go to last season? 12? 14? They were an NCAA team and are very good. Why aren't you supporting them? Same reason most others dont -- they dont like womens basketball. Most women dont even prefer womens basketball.

Fans attend what they like. If they arent interested, they do something else. It really is that straightforward. Why should Doug Harris spend his career working on some crusade that most of his audience cares not to read?

FWIW, we approached the UD football program once about covering all of their home football games and asking for some assistance from their coaches/players in feeding us interviews and diaries and anecdotes on the season. There was no interest, unlike vball and soccer. This was a few years ago, but the response never left me. They weren't interested, so I wasnt either. And thats perfectly fine. I dont get emotional about it. Its not personal.
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Old 09-05-2011, 10:25 PM
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Once...? Sounds kind of personal....
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:22 AM
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Apparently there are a lot of hurt feelings over the coverage (or lack thereof) of UD football and some of our other sports teams. While it is understandable many may feel slighted by a lack of coverage, attacking the reporter on the UD basketball beat doesn't seem fair or reasonable. Lashing out will not solve anything...it may make you (that's a collective, amorphous "you") feel better momentarily, but it's generally counterproductive. Perhaps a letter writing campaign directed at the editor/publisher of the DDN demanding more coverage of UD football would get a positive response, after all, if those in the editorial office wanted more coverage , they'd get it. Plus, I don't know if a reporter necessarily has to attend away games to report on the results or give some color to what transpired in a three/four sentence blurb. Now the respective coaches also have to do their part in providing time and access to the Press covering their respective teams.

IMHO the lack of coverage may be partially the fault of UD's Athletic Department that puts most of it's resources behind promoting our basketball program (that is where the money is) and not enough promoting our other sports. Sure, the financial commitment appears to be there with the upgrades to our facilities, but the University has to follow through with a more robust promotion of UD football, soccer and women's basketball, as well as our other sports. Now, the Athletic Department may be stretched financially and may not believe it will get a big enough bang for it's buck in promoting our other sports, but obviously there is a solid, though limited, amount of fan support that could be bolstered with a proper PR campaign. Perhaps someone in UD's Marketing Department (or in our "Entrepreneur Program") should do a "case study" on this and try to find ways to better promote interest in UD athletics as a whole and not just b-ball. In essence, we should stop with the personal attacks on individual sports writers and try to find a constructive way to promote additional media coverage of our teams. Perhaps we should start with our own Athletic Department and challenge them to come up with new approaches to promote all of UD sports (maybe, as I said earlier, by utilizing some of our resources in the School of Business to aid them in that quest.)

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  #24  
Old 09-06-2011, 08:32 AM
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Having thought about this over the weekend, I have come to the conclusion that not having a local write-up of UD’s hard earned victory at Robert Morris in the DDN is a slap in the face to the UD community. The argument of budget cuts simply does not hold water. The game was webcast for $9.95 by Robert Morris and of course Larry and Mike were on the radio. Attendance in person is not an absolute requirement to write up a summary for the Sunday edition. It is also not all that difficult for a semi-competent reporter to place a phone call or two to Rick Chamberlin or other UD Football folks to gain some insight into the game as part of the article. The lack of effort on the DDN’s part smacks simply of laziness and a lack of desire to provide basic news to the Dayton community. Not covering the only Division I college football team in your hometown is simply inexcusable. The DDN owes UD an apology and a sincere promise to not repeat this mistake. Oh, and by the way, did you notice the extensive write-up by Arch on Central State's LOSS? So, what I am seeing is that the DDN is more interested in reporting on a LOSS by CSU than a hard won victory by the namesake team of the city that the paper is claiming to serve....

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Old 09-06-2011, 08:43 AM
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The key to this issue is,.....

.....and will remain, seniors.

Senior citizens: 1) have time on their hands; 2) are always looking for something to do; are always conscious of the cost and convenience.

Flyer basketball is costly; football has competition from TV. But, practically all UD Olympic sports fit the bill and have attendance such that an additional 100 people or so would have an impact.

Women's BB presents an especially promising opportunity to attract seniors assuming the Flyers play top-tier opponents and win consistently. That's how UConn did it....and to this day, even at $15 a TX, the 8000 or so at UC games are mostly seniors.

(By the way, I loved seeing Dayton's name on the recently released UConn schedule. The Flyers play Buffalo, Fairleigh Dickenson and UConn on Nov 25, 26 and 27.....with UC on Sun the 27th at 4:30 PM.)
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:00 AM
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And yes, I did write the following directly to the DDN:

Hello.

I was exceptionally disappointed when I checked on Sunday morning for the DDN’s write-up of Dayton’s hard earned victory at Robert Morris on Saturday. I traveled from Detroit to Pittsburgh to see the game in person, and I was really looking forward to reading the recap with local comments and coaches’ comments. Somehow you managed to cover Central State’s loss, but no article on UD’s victory. Please do not tell me the newswire line that was posted on the website is supposed to substitute for actual work by the DDN staff.

Frankly, you owe the UD community a sincere apology and a promise to not fail like this again.
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:01 AM
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Detroit,

Appropriately directed commentary. It isn't Harris' decision what's in the paper, and what isn't. If the sports editor wants a write up and comments, it will be in the paper. If he doesn't, a beat writer isn't going to get it in the paper.
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by John C. View Post
Charlie B.,

Not sure where you are coming from, but it appears that you have your head in the sand concerning UD football. All you have to do is look at attendance and realize that people just don't care. There are more people in the stands for a typical high school football game. Do these statements make me negative? No, just truthful.
Yes it does make you negative as well as truthful.
Looks to me YOU( John C,)have the same negative attitude as Chris R. You're missing the whole point of this conversation. WE KNOW THE ATTENDENCE IS LOW. I go to all the Dayton games ( most all) I see the results of the lack of DDN coverage and lack of support of the citizens of Dayton. We as Fans of College sports are trying to help this awful situation.Anything positive is helpful my good man.AND MY HEAD IS NOT IN THE SAND AS FAR AS UD FOOTBALL IS CONCERNED.
Not sure where I'm coming from?????????????Doggone it read the posts.
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:28 AM
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15 years and you know a thing about the UD Audience? Give me a break. A few people on here can testify to it but I've got many more years directly involved with UD athletics, don't talk to me about knowing UD athletics. I agree with you I'd like to see more coverage on UD soccer or volleyball as well. Who's to do that? Doug Harris. Why do we have this notion we have to cover UD Men's basketball 12 months out of the year? I'm not opposed to an article here and there in the off season because when it's football season, soccer season, volleyball season we should be hearing about that in the local paper.

I to think it's a shame DF, that they would cover a CSU loss more than a UD win over a scholarship team, and then we'll beat CSU by 40 here soon. Much respect for Arch though, he's a great writer and lets be honest he's doing his job, he's not assigned to any particular team or sport so hats off to him for investing the time to do a good story. DF took the words out of my mouth in regards to covering Saturday's game. Since when did you have to attend to have a write-up? How many people paid the $9.95 to watch the game on-line? Or listened to it via WHIO? That's why the bottom line is lack of interest from Doug Harris. Bat appreciate the insight but I'm tired of hearing it's editorial management not the writer. Case and point...you ask every player on UD's football team who Doug Harris is, bet 25-50% have no idea. That's Sad! When Bucky Albers was there you knew from Day 1 your Freshman year who Bucky Albers was, I know because I did. Doesn't that say something? Doug Harris doesn't invest the time into the program, not asking him to sleep there but maybe going to a practice 3x a week, or calling Coach Chamberlin 1-2x a week, see how the teams doing. Bucky Albers and the coaching staff at UD had a very good relationship ecspecially when I was there. I don't think I can say the same for Doug Harris and current staff. Don't take that statement the wrong way, I'm not saying Doug Harris isn't a nice guy or fun to be around.

Bat '71 the UD marketing team and public relations is bigger than it's ever been and has actually invested more time and resources into the football program than ever before, that's a fact. The sad part is how can they get the word out when the local paper doesn't express the same pride.

Answer me this Doug... if community "interest" is so bad why do they continually have the Rick Chamberlin show on TV and Radio every week? Oh and have you ever watched it Doug(probably not) but at the end they scroll the sponsors of the show, you know community people who DONATE money for it.

Lastly...if what Doug says is true and it's management to blame then this must be how the situation goes. Doug walks in to his boss's office and says, "Hey Boss I got two articles here, the first is about a non-contributing basketball player who is coming back from mono and the other is about the UD football team who has the longest winning streak in the country. Which one should we publish?" Give me a break Mr. Harris!

If anyone wants to provide me with Doug Harris's superiors name or the name of the indivdual who makes the decision on what get's posted or publish I will gladly take this up with them.
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by comebackkids0708 View Post

If anyone wants to provide me with Doug Harris's superiors name or the name of the indivdual who makes the decision on what get's posted or publish I will gladly take this up with them.
Brian Kollars - 225-2163 - bkollars@daytondailynews.com

I wouldn't expect much of a sympathetic ear, however, as he is one of the chief proponents of the UD/WSU game. In fact, this lack of coverage may be the DDN way of snubbing UD over this issue.
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:50 AM
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The long awaited article...

http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayto...--1247288.html

From "Staff Support"...

Last edited by jmitch; 09-06-2011 at 11:55 AM..
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:28 PM
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The Rick Chamberlain Show doesn't make money. WHIO does it simply as a good will favor. The number of advertisers really does not mean much. Not if they are all paying peanuts. I doubt the BG Show made money. It's a loss leader. Good public carrot but other than that it's a monetary bath.

I still haven't heard why it's the DDNs job to create interest in sports programs. It's their job to make money not be an unpaid PR firm.

The DDN might write one CSU article a year. Again, you are comparing outliers to non outliers.

When the soccer teams make the NCAAs the DDN doesn't send a reporter to cover them either. They just republish a small writeup from a local source. I don't understand why UD football deserves special treatment. You don't enjoy UD football any more than I enjoy UD soccer. Why should football get special treatment?

You are asking why a news source does not write more about UD football. Having published 1,200 articles on everything UD related, I kind of have an idea of what the fans want to read. This place isnt some science project.

How about this. You write all the football articles you like and I'll publish them. Then you can feel like part of the solution and everyone wins.
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:48 PM
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An offer?

Good to have you here Chris, albeit not the circumstance I'd wish.

Does the offer to write a UD football piece for you to publish hold for me too? Where would you publish?
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:51 PM
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"When the soccer teams make the NCAAs the DDN doesn't send a reporter to cover them either. They just republish a small writeup from a local source. I don't understand why UD football deserves special treatment. You don't enjoy UD football any more than I enjoy UD soccer. Why should football get special treatment?"

You are asking the wrong question. First, you certainly come across in this quote as someone who has an axe to grind with the football program. Second, the football program should not get "special treatment", all UD sports should be covered better, including football.
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:54 PM
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Football rules..soccer drools. This is a football vs. soccer thread...right?
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DetroitFlyer View Post
"all UD sports should be covered better, including football.
I disagree with that. No UD sport has any right or entitlement to coverage of any kind. It's entertainment, not news. If there was enough demand and interest, there would be more coverage. My guess is sports other than basketball get coverage appropriate with the level of interest. Only hard news should be driven by a need to know, rather than want to know.

All you have to do is look at web sites devoted to UD sports. More posts about the lack of an article by a beat writer than the game itself. Even among the UD sports community the level of interest in soccer, volleyball baseball, etc just isn't there.

It isn't the role or responsibility of the DDN to create that interest. That's the job of UD Athletics. They leverage the basketball coverage to get the Rick Chamberlain show on TV, but I think even they know they are fighting an uphill battle to ever gain a bigger footprint with football fans than GCL high school football.
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:16 PM
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ChrisR, you make me laugh,you call writing articles on UD sporting events,Football included, Special Treatment ???????????? What the devil is the Local newspaper for???????Isn't it to report on things happening in DAYTON???.You are so Basketball Biased you can't see past your nose. The more I read your posts,I think you are part of the problem.My opinion, like it or not.
Your quote
The Rick Chamberlain Show doesn't make money. WHIO does it simply as a good will favor. The number of advertisers really does not mean much. Not if they are all paying peanuts. I doubt the BG Show made money. It's a loss leader. Good public carrot but other than that it's a monetary bath.

Chris,
You said it yourself,Good will,Good public carrot.
Someone has to get the Football news to us fans .DDN won't.I guess the DDN doesn't believe in any good will,even though it's Local NEWS.
( Special Treatment ?? Wow)
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
I disagree with that. No UD sport has any right or entitlement to coverage of any kind. It's entertainment, not news. If there was enough demand and interest, there would be more coverage. My guess is sports other than basketball get coverage appropriate with the level of interest. Only hard news should be driven by a need to know, rather than want to know.

All you have to do is look at web sites devoted to UD sports. More posts about the lack of an article by a beat writer than the game itself. Even among the UD sports community the level of interest in soccer, volleyball baseball, etc just isn't there.

It isn't the role or responsibility of the DDN to create that interest. That's the job of UD Athletics. They leverage the basketball coverage to get the Rick Chamberlain show on TV, but I think even they know they are fighting an uphill battle to ever gain a bigger footprint with football fans than GCL high school football.

Just wondering,UD Doug, are you Doug Harris???You sure write like you are.LOL
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:31 PM
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Anyone that takes the time to write an article about UD football, Id be more than happy to consider putting it on the home page like all other articles. Charlie, when can I expect your first piece?

I love football. No axe to grind.

Also, keep in mind that CSU article was about a football game at Welcome Stadium, not out of state. The time and cost to produce it was far less.

I have nothing against any UD sport. Im just trying to provide some levity to explain why some articles get written and some dont. To be perfectly honest, I think you have a bigger beef with the UD athletic department than the DDN -- not that I think they are failing at anything in particular.
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:47 PM
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I can see both sides of this issue. I think that the other sports should receive more attention but when you see the number of fans in attendance at the games you understand why.

UD is at least partially at fault in this. I don't think they have ever workied hard to generate a great working relationship with the ddn. I would treat the sports writers and editors really well unless I found that they are a bunch of jerks and not worth the time. But, I would put a lot of effort into building that relationship.

There are a lot of ways ud could get the word out to local fans but what seem like some good ideas are never implemented. Making signs and having fans and alumni put them out for the next game is a great idea. Sure haven't seen anything done in that regard. UD has a relationship with police and fire departments. They could post game days/times on their boards outside the station. Haven't seen anything like that happen.

UD should be working toward building a relationship with potential fans in the area so that they are always checking the scores for different sports. Then you will see many articles published.

Last season the fox morning news had the women's soccer team on repeatedly. I'm not sure why this happened, maybe someone knew one of the players or their family. This should be happening more than it does.
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:55 PM
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Sorry, my good man,you will never get an article from me.I'm not a writer,my JOB is not to write about the games.I'm a retired old man that does nothing but drive back and forth from Cleveland to Dayton games,home and away.and don't get paid to do it. I love High School and College Football,You can take the Pro Games and shove them,you know where.
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Old 09-06-2011, 02:11 PM
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Well, something is awry somewhere, but I still don't believe personal insults will get us anywhere. Comebackkids, you apparently know a good deal about the inner workings of our Athletic Department's efforts to promote our football program...and it may be better staffed and better funded than ever before, but it has been ineffective in getting the coverage we would like to see. Perhaps, UD should simply provide "copy" (similar to what's posted on Daytonflyers.com) of all our sports events to the DDN, then they in-turn can parse it and include it in the Sports pages (I'm not sure of the journalistic ethics on this, but with proper disclosure, there shouldn't be an issue.) It is somewhat striking that the Sports Section of the local paper doesn't include coverage of the major University in town. Heck, I don't see why they don't cover WSU's teams either. It's a little amusing that the people over at the DDN don't think that including even short pieces on the results of the local Universities' teams wouldn't help its circulation. I would think there are enough alums in the area, that stories on the local college teams could help generate subscriptions and even promote more interest at the games and in the paper. There should be more of a symbiotic relationship between UD and the DDN; heck if coverage were to increase for all sports at UD it would/could help local recruiting even more.

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Old 09-06-2011, 02:24 PM
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Well then....

Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
I disagree with that. No UD sport has any right or entitlement to coverage of any kind. It's entertainment, not news. If there was enough demand and interest, there would be more coverage. My guess is sports other than basketball get coverage appropriate with the level of interest. Only hard news should be driven by a need to know, rather than want to know.

All you have to do is look at web sites devoted to UD sports. More posts about the lack of an article by a beat writer than the game itself. Even among the UD sports community the level of interest in soccer, volleyball baseball, etc just isn't there.

It isn't the role or responsibility of the DDN to create that interest. That's the job of UD Athletics. They leverage the basketball coverage to get the Rick Chamberlain show on TV, but I think even they know they are fighting an uphill battle to ever gain a bigger footprint with football fans than GCL high school football.
What should the DDN cover in DAYTON, OHIO? Just how many Division I universities are there in town that are named after the city? I would also argue that if the DDN is going to survive, they darn sure better "create" some interest in the stories they choose to publish in their paper. It is called being proactive in running your business. If nothing else, hire an intern from UD, (I'm sure the Flyer News can provide some excellent candidates), and have them write up the articles for UD's non-men's basketball sports. Minimal cost, maximum advantage. The bottom line is that the DDN does not have to wait until someone dies on the soccer pitch during a UD match for it to be "news". The game itself is news and should be reported in the hometown paper.
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Old 09-06-2011, 02:28 PM
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And it should be pointed out that....

Originally Posted by UDBrian View Post
I can see both sides of this issue. I think that the other sports should receive more attention but when you see the number of fans in attendance at the games you understand why.

UD is at least partially at fault in this. I don't think they have ever workied hard to generate a great working relationship with the ddn. I would treat the sports writers and editors really well unless I found that they are a bunch of jerks and not worth the time. But, I would put a lot of effort into building that relationship.

There are a lot of ways ud could get the word out to local fans but what seem like some good ideas are never implemented. Making signs and having fans and alumni put them out for the next game is a great idea. Sure haven't seen anything done in that regard. UD has a relationship with police and fire departments. They could post game days/times on their boards outside the station. Haven't seen anything like that happen.

UD should be working toward building a relationship with potential fans in the area so that they are always checking the scores for different sports. Then you will see many articles published.

Last season the fox morning news had the women's soccer team on repeatedly. I'm not sure why this happened, maybe someone knew one of the players or their family. This should be happening more than it does.
Brian has taken matters into his own hands and reports on UD Volleyball right here on UDPride! I always read his articles and greatly appreciate his insight. Now, if we can just get his articles in the DDN....
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  #45  
Old 09-06-2011, 02:32 PM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
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One other thought, while we're touching on the subject of promoting UD Sports teams; why doesn't UD push for more coverage (or at least announcements) of upcoming games/matches for our football, volleyball, soccer, baseball and softball games on radio and television? It should work with WHIO, at least, since they carry our football and basketball games on the radio. How much effort or time would it take for local television sportscasters to announce, for example, that "the UD women's soccer team is hosting so-and-so at 7:00 PM this Friday at Baujaun field?" or "UD's #23 ranked volleyball team is set to face "so-and-so" at 8:00 PM at the Ferricks Center this Saturday", etc. etc., etc. These outlets think nothing of announcing the times and dates for upcoming Bengals or Reds games, why doesn't UD try to push them to announce our games...it may actually spur attendance and if attendance goes up then coverage should go up. Pardon the stream of consciousness here...I was just doing a little brain-storming.
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Old 09-06-2011, 03:33 PM
UDBrian UDBrian is offline
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Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
One other thought, while we're touching on the subject of promoting UD Sports teams; why doesn't UD push for more coverage (or at least announcements) of upcoming games/matches for our football, volleyball, soccer, baseball and softball games on radio and television? It should work with WHIO, at least, since they carry our football and basketball games on the radio. How much effort or time would it take for local television sportscasters to announce, for example, that "the UD women's soccer team is hosting so-and-so at 7:00 PM this Friday at Baujaun field?" or "UD's #23 ranked volleyball team is set to face "so-and-so" at 8:00 PM at the Ferricks Center this Saturday", etc. etc., etc. These outlets think nothing of announcing the times and dates for upcoming Bengals or Reds games, why doesn't UD try to push them to announce our games...it may actually spur attendance and if attendance goes up then coverage should go up. Pardon the stream of consciousness here...I was just doing a little brain-storming.

I agree 100%. I thought that streams of conciousness were allowed on this website.

There are so many people that don't realize the quality of UD sports and the most expensive is $10 for a football or basketball ticket. Many of the fall sports plus baseball and softball are free. There is a huge untapped fan base that the university doesn't seem interested in going after.
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  #47  
Old 09-06-2011, 03:33 PM
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So we're now at a crossroads in this debate. One entity cant make money writing articles on UD football away games, and another is too old to help do it himself. Everyone has a legitimately good reason not to do it.

Turns out, everyone is much alike.

UD pushes recaps to all the news outlets. Im on the same department email list as ESPN, TopDrawerSoccer, Soccer America, NCAA ticker, American Volleyball Coaches Association, Volleytalk, Rich Kern, Soccer Times, DDN, Springfield Sun, Hamilton JN, CNNSI.....theres probably 150 folks on the list. During basketball season, the same thing occurs...Katz, Bilas, Kellogg, ONeil, they all get them too.

Im not sure UD can do much more from a post-match information release standpoint. They can bring the horse to water but they cant force it to drink. Ultimately its up to the editors of those agencies to decide what and what is not good for their bottom line.

Nobody is altruistic. If you cant make money doing it, theres no point. News writers and editors have mouths to feed too. If the DDN thought they could sell papers like hotcakes by stuffing it full of UD football or soccer articles, it would have been done years ago. The newspaper business is hemorrhaging so bad right now they will write about just about anything if it would help sell papers. Papers know their audience, their circulation, and their sales target. Its almost an exact science. They have been in the business for 150 years. Im pretty certain they have an idea about what stories are profitable to cover and what stories are not.

But lets take it one step further, how much more are you willing to pay for your DDN subscription to support a full time staffer to cover UD football all season? And how many others can you round up to do the same? Take up a collection plate and help the DDN help you. There are no free lunches. Its not like Cox Publishing/Media is swimming in revenue. Look at all the good, talented people they have let go. George L'Heureux and Mike Ivcic, I worked with personally. Cox ended the partnership with UDPride in March. It is what it is. Ive been negatively affected more than I care to explain. We deal with it and move on.
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Old 09-06-2011, 05:05 PM
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Detroit,

Their job is to cover news and events in Dayton profitably. That's what they owe their shareholders. If it isn't profitable for them, they won't cover football. It's reality, like it or not.

Many news organizations that have a journalistic/community service bent will publish hard news that loses money. But not sports and entertainment. There are lots of events that aren't covered. Always have been. There's more of them now.

UD used to have 7K at football games too. Not now.

Back when Bucky Albers was writing, the newspaper was basically a license to print money. They could afford to do all kinds of things. Can't do it anymore. It won't be too long from now and newspapers won't be daily.

How many of the TV stations sent reporters to cover the UD Robert Morris game?
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Old 09-06-2011, 06:27 PM
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Just an addendum, no outlet has done more to promote the non basketball sports at UD over the last 15 years than UDPride. In fact, we publish more non basketball articles than basketball articles. But we can afford to do so: we dont make money no matter what we write about. If someone wants to cover football and write some articles, my invitation remains.

I dont have it out for UD football or any UD olympic sport. This web site is an equal opportunity enterprise. There is room for all the sports to talk about and write about, provided there are people willing to do the work. Who better to do it than fans themselves?? But if current UD football fans dont care enough to write about UD football, why should non-UD football fans?

Unfortunately as an unpaid servant, there is only so much I can do and I have to pick my battles. Im thankful for the help I receive, and always willing to make room for more fans willing to donate their time as well. Im just the guy keeping the hamster wheel turning so everyone has a forum to air their laundry.
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:15 PM
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I don't necessarily buy-into the fact that just because somebody's been in a business for "x" number of years that they necessarily know what they're doing or what their audience wants; they may THINK they know, but that's another story. I'm not trying to be smug here, but a lot of old line businesses go down the tubes, so to speak, if they don't stay in touch with their audience or fail to adapt to changing environments. I don't necessarily think that the DDN needs a full-time (or part-time) reporter to cover all of our matches/games or that of any given team in an area; they can print wire stories and/or modify press releases and box scores provided from reputable sources to run in their paper. Advertisers will pay to reach certain audiences and circulation, as well as demographics, is of major interest to them. Maybe only 2,000 go to a UD football game or 1,200 go to a men's soccer game, perhaps half or three-quarters don't now get the DDN, but if there were some coverage of the game then maybe 10% or 20% of them may buy a paper.

I know the preceding is somewhat hypothetical, but I do know of some friends that live in the Dayton area that dropped their subscriptions to the DDN because of lack of coverage of UD sports and some shoddy reporting practices. Maybe UD does go all out and provide a lot of info to all the sports networks, sportswriters and blogs, but obviously something is not working if coverage is so skimpy. Perhaps our focus, at least as far as our non-revenue generating sports is concerned, is to stay closer to home and focus on more coverage by local media. Papers, network news and other medium need "product" to sell to the consuming public and they need reliable sources for stories to make them relevant and interesting. If UD can troubleshoot the problem of "lack of interest" and find better ways to promote our various sports, attendance should benefit and coverage should improve as well. I know there are no simple answers and maybe there is not a heck of a lot that can be done, but I don't like just throwing up our hands and saying it can't be done or there is no interest. Part and parcel of effective promotion is driving demand for something the public doesn't necessarily think it wants.

Obviously, Chris, you and UDDoug are a lot more involved and in touch with what's going on in the media business than most of us and you've done yeoman's work in providing a solid source of information (as well as an outlet for our views) for those of us that follow UD sports. Perhaps, since a lack of interest is a major factor in the DDN's decision not to cover our non-revenue generating sports, UD could do a survey of alums and ticket holders to our various events to see how many subscribe to the DDN, or how often those that don't subscribe buy a paper at the newsstand. A follow-up question to those that don't subscribe could see how many would change their buying habits if the DDN provided more coverage to the relevant sport. Anything that could further the argument that increased coverage could lead to increased circulation would probably help UD's case in getting better coverage. If coverage wouldn't make any difference in the buying habits of the public, that would also be useful for all to know.

Last edited by Bat'71; 09-06-2011 at 07:34 PM..
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  #51  
Old 09-06-2011, 07:37 PM
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This whole Tread is aimed at DDN not UDpride,You do a great service for UD Football and other sports, DDN is not doing their job as a community newspaper. At the rate they are going they will be out of business soon,and it will be their own fault. you would think with the Internet as competition they would use ALL vehicles as a way to get more readers. 80% of the public is sports minded.
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:27 PM
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UDDoug, how many local dayton tv stations sent reporters? I believe none, BUT you know the difference? They still reported the game and it's results, and WHIO had the Rick Chamberlin show the next morning, with highlights. I mean did you seriously just ask that, you set yourself up on that one. You could have watched the show and written an article.


UD69 and JMitch thanks for the information. To your point UD69 I'm sure it'll fall on deaf ears. I actually agree UD should play WSU in basketball. Kick their a** for two years then not play them again for another 10, but that's another topic.

I'll say it again, it's not DDN job to promote UD football, that's not what I'm asking for, I'm asking for coverage, huge difference. I'll also say it again, you can't tell me that more people want to hear about a senior bowler, or a player fighting mono then what the local college football team is doing, who has the longest winning streak in the nation.

I agree that WSU sports should have more coverage, along with other UD sports. Where's the disconnect? Coverage of events/teams generates interest. We're not asking for a full page article every day from DDN, just a simple article you know like the 20 we've seen about UD basketball in the offseason. It's not promoting it's simply reporting. DF had a great idea, if it's too much money or too much to ask for one of their writers to actually cover a local team, then develop a relationship with the journalism department at UD, or FlyerNews. To this day I get on and read Flyer News online, why? Because they have interesting articles. They report what's going on at UD. Hell I'm sure they'd let one of their writers do the writing and submit it to DDN, would look great on a resume.


No personal attacks at Doug Harris, said before he's probably a nice guy and fun to be around, just going after his work.

I agree Charlie DDN will be shutting down like most newspapers across the country and be confined to online only, at no fault of UD sports coverage though.

You know for the Drake game Mr. Harris you can go for $450. Covers all expenses, even entry to the game if you were worried. Think DDN could do that? Who am I kidding.
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  #53  
Old 09-06-2011, 10:48 PM
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I've always wondered exactly how a beat writer like Doug Harris works for the DDN (or any other paper). Is he salaried? Does he work a regular 40-hr. week. If so, what does he do when he isn't covering a UD sport (or apparently not covering it)? Being an out-of-towner, I only read the online version of the DDN, but I don't see him as the author of any stories except UD basketball. Can anyone in the know elaborate?
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  #54  
Old 09-07-2011, 05:10 AM
Fan4allUDSports Fan4allUDSports is offline
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Here's a question I wonder. If there is no interest in reading about Flyer football, as has been brought up, how much real interest is there in a WSU-UD basketball game? I don't want to open up a whole can of worms, but if there is enough interest in bringing up the games, then why don't we report the other games between the two schools and why hasn't the basketball game occured, especially if it would be a sellout as implied by the fact that so many people were interested?
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:04 AM
UDDoug UDDoug is offline
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WHIO has the Rick Chamberlain show because UD requires them to have it as part of the rights to telecast UD basketball games. If UD basketball left WHIO, say for all games on FoxSports Ohio the the Rick Chamberlain show would go off the air. Channel 7 doesn't broadcast it because they make an independent decision to do so. They do so because the contract that gives them the rights to broadcast basketball requires them to.

So no media outlet covered the game live. One Cox media outlet has a contractual obligation to provide a Sunday morning show and they used highlights provided by UD. The other Cox outlet chose not to do even that. UD could try to require print coverage in the TV deal but Cox would probably walk away from that. Without basketball there would be virtually no coverage of away games. Radio probably would not broadcast without the basketball contract.
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:27 AM
comebackkids0708 comebackkids0708 is offline
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And we finally have an article about the game, only took 3 days after the game...

http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayto...--1247288.html

You'll notice it says staff report not Doug Harris. I could care less who wrote it, the fact is it's a good recap/coverage of the game. Now the goal is to get this in the paper Sunday morning and not on Tuesday! Was it really that hard? Shocking they even put it because the community has no interest remember? Doug Harris was busy writing another article about a non-contributing player coming back from mono. For the 2nd time. Which again I pose the question, why does DDN think people want to read about a non-contributing player coming back from mono 2x before they read about the football game.

UDDoug, touche to your point, sort of. You went away from my answer. I said they might not have covered the game live but they reported the results that evening and the next morning on their broadcast. Something DDN failed to do. The RC show was just thrown in there, contract or not it's on the air, I call it good negotiating on UD Athletics part. Actually if UD went from WHIO to FoxSports I bet they'd negotiate them to broadcast 1-2 football games.

Are you serious about no coverage of away games without basketball. Now your talking out of your a**. Wittenberg, and Sinclair get coverage on WHIO. Wait let me guess the UD athletic department negotiated that into the whole basketball deal. Where do you get this idea that the city of Dayton hates UD football. Because of attendance? I could go to Dayton right now where a UD Football shirt and guaranteed to get multiple comments within 24 hours out in public. Attendance is also a big reflection of when tOSU is playing. That doesn't mean they don't like UD football. Case and point. UD night games...when tOSU plays during the day outdraw day games when tOSU plays during the day. Last time UD played on a Thursday I believe there was over 5K maybe 6K. Attendance isn't the ultimate determiner of interest. I'm interested in the Indians but I don't go to their games when I'm in town. Problem with night games is travel budgets from opposing teams. They like to leave Saturday night so they don't have to stay another night in the hotel which is why you don't see alot of those. I'll admit getting bigger names to come in could dillute some of that disparity on Saturday and believe me the bigger names are coming.

You know I feel sorry for Doug Harris if it's really that bad at DDN. So sorry that I'm offering to help him with his next blog entry, here you go Doug. Let's see if this makes it.

The University of Dayton football team returns home this Saturday to build on their 10 game winning streak which is the longest in FCS football currently. I was looking around on the internet and came across this video from the UD. Wanted to share it with everyone in anticipation for the Home Opener.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5eLO...layer_embedded


Now obviously you can add a little color to that but, it's quick, it's simple and you ready for this...it actually has meaning.

Last edited by comebackkids0708; 09-08-2011 at 10:45 AM..
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  #57  
Old 09-07-2011, 11:53 AM
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Nice!!!!!
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Old 09-07-2011, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by comebackkids0708 View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5eLO...layer_embedded


Or wait is there a bigger story with UD basketball, like one of the non walk-on players actually taking a course outside of communications, which by the way is a pretty big deal I''ll admit.
The clip is great. I want to show it to my 10 year-old grandson who is in his first season in pads.

The latter comment, not so much.
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:57 PM
UDDoug UDDoug is offline
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Until enough people take up the lack of coverage with Kollars, whether it be for football, baseball, soccer or volleyball, nothing will change. Kollars determines they type of coverage in the paper or online, not a beat writer. If Kollars wanted game writeups other than a blurb on page 9, it would be there. He obviously thinks game write ups and comments regarding the game aren't worth publishing and his coverage of other sports will be more of the human interest variety - Kelly's hall of fame career, players and their families.

That won't change unless enough potential readers convince him otherwise. If they don't, coverage of UD football (or soccer, volleyball or baseball) will be limited to the YouTube vidoes, facebook posts and the like that UD provides.

There's your chance to demonstrate the level of community interest. If you are successful, even that is likely to be short-lived though. Increasingly newspapers are concluding that providing write-ups of games is not worthwhile in a digital age as the vast majority of the audience has learned what they about the results from a more timely source. The DDN no longer covers a beat for the pro sports in Ohio, even the hometown papers are talking about dropping those beats.

I would be absolutely shocked if Fox would agree to carry a UD football game, unless UD wanted to play a game at something like 3pm on a Tuesday. UD doesn't have that kind of leverage with Fox, they already have to play games on dates and at times dictated by Fox to get basketball games on TV.

As for how Harris is paid, in the old days he would have been a full time employee working a 40 hour shift to cover UD athletics. Now, that's far less likely. I don't know how Cox has structured his specific employment, but in many sports departments beat writers are on a part-time basis. His gig is probably something like that - 10 hours a week from May to September, provide 5 basketball blogs on recruiting, summer activities every two weeks, write one piece a week on other sports. The hours increase if any news breaks in basketball, probably not for any breaking news in any other support. During basketball he might be increased to 30 hours a week.

Much like radio, which increasingly does not pay show hosts, just gives them a platform to speak. In radio they like to call them internships, even if it's a relatively seasoned person, and hold out some level of hope that if the show is successful enough a paid gig could result.

Last edited by UDDoug; 09-07-2011 at 03:36 PM..
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:57 PM
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Okay, the DDN screwed up!

It is now obvious that somebody at the Daily News dropped the ball on UD football coverage last week. But the real 900 pound elephant is declining attendance for UD and many other good football programs that navigate below the BCS level.

Every year, a series of posts emerges here lamenting the poor attendance for Flyer Football.

Some of the causes mentioned:

1. Playing at the same kickoff times as the Buckeyes.
2. Competing with an orgy of BCS and FBS TV broadcasts in High Def.
3. Not playing at night.
4. A history of weak promotion to the Dayton community and the student body.
5. (Almost) no opportunity for post-season play.
6. Lack of high intensity rivalries. (Think Xavier!)
7. No opportunity (due to our so-called non-scholly status) to play Miami, UC, BG and Louisville and other FBS teams like we did in the 60s and 70s..

Poor attendance is embarrassing and frustrating, especially when you consider the exceptional quality of Dayton Football. We have a winning tradition , exceptional coaching (think Baujan, Noll, Kelly and now Chamberlin), high ethics (unlike LSU, Miami Fla and tOSU) a top-25 FCS program and a non-scholarship model that works as well as any in the hallowed Ivy League.

We are fortunate to enjoy radio coverage on a highly rated AM/FM radio station and their robust internet stream, a weekly TV coach's show and free TV streaming video of home games.

We now play at a level suitable of an esteemed national university. along with respected universities like San Diego, Drake, Butler and Davidson. Sure it was fun to win national D-3 championships, but it rang somewhat hollow to beat up on small schools like Wittenberg, Urbana and Mount Union.

Dayton Ohio will support spectator sports. In 2007 UD ran an effective promotion tying together the red/blue basketball game and an important football game vs San Diego. The result: 7600 fans in the Welcome Stadium stands. I think it was 2008 when UD and Central State played a "Dayton Classic" game in front of a similar sized crowd.

When you ponder those results, the amazing fan base for Flyer basketball and the amazing year after year 100% sold-out seasons posted by the single-A minor league Dayton baseball Dragons, you can only conclude that UD's poor football attendance is a (solve-able) MARKETING PROBLEM.

The Football Flyers can and must truly become (the city of) Dayton's team!
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:21 PM
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I wish there was something we, as the Flyer Faithful COMMUNITY, could do. If we write everyday it won't mean much. Sure we may get an article, but we have to do something about where we are, and I think that the Dragons are actually a perfect example to tie into with the Columbus Clippers.
If you look at the Dragons streak they have sold out at a nice and modern ballpark that according to their website seats 7230 with seat holders. Not a large amount, but a fair amount and with the proximity to Cincinatti and Columbus a good draw can be had. However, the Clippers attendance is whats most intriguing. Attendance spiked with the move to downtown and the new ballpark. I think it helped a little bit that they were now tied to the Indians, but they did something to spruce up going to the ballpark, which is what the Flyers need to do. I understand the money and politics involved with sharing Welcome Stadium with the DPS, but this is the problem. Did you know that the Clippers managed to get 9000+ to their game last Saturday, despite having an OSU game earlier? The Flyers can compete, they just have to, and to do so they need a facility to do that.
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:03 AM
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The difference between the Dragons and Flyer football is nobody goes to a Dragons game to watch baseball. They go to be entertained. They go to enjoy the mid-inning antics and giveaways and sausage races and kiss-cams and Heater and all the rest. Its a completely different kind of clientele.

Im not sure UD wants to turn their football games into Carnivale with jugglers taking the field during timeouts, etc. Also, the Dragons facility is the Taj Majal of Single A baseball. I hate to say this, but Welcome is a dump. You might have read my article on Baujan Field needing an upgrade. You could put $10M into Welcome and it would still not address all of its shortcomings. Its a general purpose facility owned by the Dayton Public Schools. Its not branded in any way as a UD football field or complex. The stadium never feels like its connected to UD or part of the campus experience. The turf has DPS logos all over it. Its old, its tired, its not going to make the kind of impression to a new, fresh fan thats trying to be convinced to come back and make a habit of attending games.

If you are trying to convince new fans to give up their Ohio State football Saturday to come out and watch UD football, it better be one heck of a lasting impression. They need to walk away saying "holy cow. I never imagined how upscale and high-class the whole production is." Its not good enough to simply win on the football field. You have to create the entire fan experience and it starts with the moment they pull into the parking lot. If they say to themselves "jiminy Christmas, my grandson plays in a nicer stadium than this at his HS", thats not the impression you want to seed.

UD might as well be playing at Fairmont's stadium because that's what the experience feels like. At least when you walk into UD Arena, you know this is the house of UD hoops. At Welcome, its just an old stadium hardly fit for DPS games, let alone UD.

The problem is money. How do you throw that much cash into a sport that loses money and gets 3,200 fans a game. I think if the PFL got an auto-bid, UD would take it more seriously and see the upside. But UD cannot be nationally competitive in football until they have a path to the playoffs. That carrot must exist. One of the reasons UD volleyball and soccer have gotten Tier-1 support is because there is a real opportunity to make national headlines in the sports. Plus, for conference alignment purposes, those sports will carry much greater weight than UD football because any new conference alignment will involve schools that do not compete at a level UD plays in. UD football offers nothing to Providence, Marquette, DePaul, St. John's, etc.

Yes marketing can always be better, but marketing takes money just like upgrades take money. And there must be an upside or payoff for the investment. Unfortunately as successful as UD football is, right now its in an orphan league and operating at an orphan division that severely restricts how much payback there is on the tail end of things.

I think moving to FCS scholarship would increase attendance quite a bit, but it would completely bankrupt the athletic department. To add 40-50 scholarships, they'd have to offset that with at least 3-4 more varsity sports on the women's side because of Title IX. So its really a 100 scholarship decision. And theres no point in fielding 3-4 more womens programs unless you are set on doing it right from the very beginning. That just means more money.

In fact, now that I think about it, they might have to add more mens varsity sports if they make UD football partial scholarship, because there is a ratio that must be met regarding mens to womens sports, not just scholarships. You cant have 7-8 mens sports and 12-13 womens sports. I think you can only have a difference of 2-3. So get all the math to work and meet NCAA, Title IX requirements, it would essentially double (or more) the size of the athletic department.

Will never happen.
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Old 09-08-2011, 06:53 AM
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A dump?

Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
The difference between the Dragons and Flyer football is nobody goes to a Dragons game to watch baseball. They go to be entertained. They go to enjoy the mid-inning antics and giveaways and sausage races and kiss-cams and Heater and all the rest. Its a completely different kind of clientele.

Im not sure UD wants to turn their football games into Carnivale with jugglers taking the field during timeouts, etc. Also, the Dragons facility is the Taj Majal of Single A baseball. I hate to say this, but Welcome is a dump. You might have read my article on Baujan Field needing an upgrade. You could put $10M into Welcome and it would still not address all of its shortcomings. Its a general purpose facility owned by the Dayton Public Schools. Its not branded in any way as a UD football field or complex. The stadium never feels like its connected to UD or part of the campus experience. The turf has DPS logos all over it. Its old, its tired, its not going to make the kind of impression to a new, fresh fan thats trying to be convinced to come back and make a habit of attending games.

If you are trying to convince new fans to give up their Ohio State football Saturday to come out and watch UD football, it better be one heck of a lasting impression. They need to walk away saying "holy cow. I never imagined how upscale and high-class the whole production is." Its not good enough to simply win on the football field. You have to create the entire fan experience and it starts with the moment they pull into the parking lot. If they say to themselves "jiminy Christmas, my grandson plays in a nicer stadium than this at his HS", thats not the impression you want to seed.

UD might as well be playing at Fairmont's stadium because that's what the experience feels like. At least when you walk into UD Arena, you know this is the house of UD hoops. At Welcome, its just an old stadium hardly fit for DPS games, let alone UD.

The problem is money. How do you throw that much cash into a sport that loses money and gets 3,200 fans a game. I think if the PFL got an auto-bid, UD would take it more seriously and see the upside. But UD cannot be nationally competitive in football until they have a path to the playoffs. That carrot must exist. One of the reasons UD volleyball and soccer have gotten Tier-1 support is because there is a real opportunity to make national headlines in the sports. Plus, for conference alignment purposes, those sports will carry much greater weight than UD football because any new conference alignment will involve schools that do not compete at a level UD plays in. UD football offers nothing to Providence, Marquette, DePaul, St. John's, etc.

Yes marketing can always be better, but marketing takes money just like upgrades take money. And there must be an upside or payoff for the investment. Unfortunately as successful as UD football is, right now its in an orphan league and operating at an orphan division that severely restricts how much payback there is on the tail end of things.

I think moving to FCS scholarship would increase attendance quite a bit, but it would completely bankrupt the athletic department. To add 40-50 scholarships, they'd have to offset that with at least 3-4 more varsity sports on the women's side because of Title IX. So its really a 100 scholarship decision. And theres no point in fielding 3-4 more womens programs unless you are set on doing it right from the very beginning. That just means more money.

In fact, now that I think about it, they might have to add more mens varsity sports if they make UD football partial scholarship, because there is a ratio that must be met regarding mens to womens sports, not just scholarships. You cant have 7-8 mens sports and 12-13 womens sports. I think you can only have a difference of 2-3. So get all the math to work and meet NCAA, Title IX requirements, it would essentially double (or more) the size of the athletic department.

Will never happen.

Chris,....roughly $2-3 million was recently pumped into Welcome....the appearance is not bad and the field is first-rate. Parking is convenient. It's not Ohio Stadium...but it certainly cannot fairly be described as a "dump".

The logo means nothing...FBS teams play on fields with NFL logos at mid field and in the end zones.

UD could give WS a college atmosphere on game days if it wanted to with very little effort. Apparently there is no interest in doing so.
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Old 09-08-2011, 09:54 AM
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Moving Along...

I still do check the internet for DDN and this morning is a nice piece about the Flyer football teams win...by Doug harris.

Nice piece and it really gets to the point of why that win was important and special. It's so true that RMU seemed to be a disjointed team. For years they were the dirtiest playing team on the schedule - don't know about last Saturday. After last years loss at Welcome, Coach Joe Walton wouldn't talk with Doug Harris. This year I watched a video interview as Olde Joe sat on a bench in the shade and he looked physically and emotionally drained. He spoke very soft for a fiery guy!

Duquesne probably won't give up a win, we'll have to take it from them. Remember, last year the Dukes only needed a minute to win it.

Go Flyers. Yea Everybody.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayto...n-1248559.html
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Old 09-08-2011, 11:03 AM
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San Diego Flyer, sorry about that, was a little harsh, I removed it. I have a lot of pride for UD including the basketball team. I liked Gregory and hope Archie Miller sticks around.

Charlie B sounds like you and Chris R have a history and in the just few posts I've read from Chris, I see what you mean. Chris you're a good writer but calling Welcome a dump? Saying they might as well play at FHS? Come on man. University of Dayton has offered a few million for that stadium, a few times. Give it time and DPS will give in. The only reason they hold on to it is Track and Football Playoffs. Once those get moved to Cincy or Columbus they'll sell. I've always said you put UD back on campus attendance would incerease, mainly because of students but it would be a much better place. However we all know soccer teams would have a fit if that happened. Bajaun does have some of the best playing surface in the country so I can see their concern, they'd have to put field turf in. Scheduling needs to change in order for attendance. The interest is there, I don't care what DH or DDN says. ChrisCage brings up a great point about the USD game which was tied in with the bball game, 7,600. Bring in a Youngstown State type team once a year. These are things that can and should happen.

Mr. Harris thank you for the article. While it's a little late I think it was a good article. That's all we're asking for, 2-3X a week. An article about the team during the week, a preview of the game, a real preview with quotes from opposing teams, you're allowed to call other coaches, they aren't all like Joe Joe and a game recap article after the game. More would be great but coverage that's all that matters.

Not sure if anyone noticed or I'm just looking into it too much but at the end of the article the annoucement of the next game was in big bold letters. Mr. Harris trying to respond to us, as my kids say LOL.

One other thing, that youtube video...already over 800 views. Posted 2 days ago and one of the more higher viewed videos posted on the GoUofDFlyers Channel. Just saying. People should post this other places. Go to other teams message boards post it, go to FCS message boards, post it. Just a thought.
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:16 PM
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I don't think the 2 recent UD football reports in the DDN are a coincidence. I think they are the result of comments on this thread. I noticed there were also short updates on Cross Country and Volleyball in one article. Doug Harris reads UDP, and if a thread has his name as the title, he will for sure read every post.

This reminds me of when Hal McCoy (Reds sportswriter) was "retired" by the DDN last fall. In his blog, he informed his followers that the DDN retired him, and he made it obvious that it wasn't his decision. Over a 100 posters made comments that were critical of the DDN with many saying they would cancel their subscriptions. Not long after that, Hal reported that the DDN asked him to continue reporting Reds games. Out of town expenses are no longer paid, so Hal watches those games in his "Man Cave" at home and does a great job reporting them.
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:44 PM
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It's pretty standard that Doug has a weekly round up of UD sports. Usually on Thursday, sometimes Wednesday. I don't think today's Harris article is part of the response to comments - the game write up may have been though.

The real proof if Kollars is going to increase the allocation of news hole to UD football (or any nonrevenue sports) is what happens when UD next plays out of town. They are going to cover home games - what happens when they play at someone like Jacksonville.

I have heard, but certainly can't verify, that Hal is still retired, and provides his blog at either no charge or an extremely minimal amount. For extensive coverage of sports other than basketball (three or more times a week, that's what it will take - somebody who will write it just to have a byline in print without compensation or expenses.
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:50 PM
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Good Job,Doug Harris.Thank You.You can bet we DO appreciate your effort.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayto...n-1248559.html
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Old 09-08-2011, 01:57 PM
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Doug, you are correct. Hal is retired, but writes columns after each game whether home or away (unless he's on vacation) plus the "Ask Hal" column on Sunday's. I believe he's an independent contractor. I would be surprised if he does it at no charge or an extremely minimal amount. It seems the saviings to the DDN of not having to pay benefits or the cost to attend out of town games (travel, hotels, meals) would cut the cost enough that they could pay him a reduced, but decent amount. Just my opinion.

Now back to football (didn't mean to sidetrack the thread).
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Old 09-08-2011, 06:39 PM
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For some reason, a handful of you have gone off on those of us that disagree with your thoughts on this subject. The thing that you seem to be missing is that anyone that is on the thread is a fan of UD Football or they wouldn't be reading this. We all want UD football to succeed. However, there are good reasons that the DDN does not spend a great deal of money on it and does on basketball. Just bacause you love the team or the sport does not mean that everyone does. It all comes down to dollars and cents with the DDN. All you have to do is count the number of threads on this forum and compare it to basketball and you will understand why basketball is covered 12 months out of the year. You have to be realistic and some of you just don't seem to get that.
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Old 09-09-2011, 09:05 AM
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John, you make a valid point...a lot of us on this board "talk past" each other, and quite often it appears people dig-in their positions and the posts take on the characteristics of a debating society. It seems to me, however, that the frustration exhibited by a number of posters at the lack of coverage by the DDN of our non-revenue sports is dismissed by others as being an over reaction and this lack of coverage can simply be explained due to: no real interest by the public as evidenced by poor attendance at the sporting events in question; an effort has been made by UD to promote interest and that's all UD can do and this should be sufficient; and, it costs too much for the DDN to cover the games. Well, apparently there is interest by quite a few people and there is a feeling that: UD has been ineffective in promoting our non-generating sports and this should not simply be accepted but reviewed to see what could be done better; attendance may benefit from better, more targeted promotion so the public had a better idea of who we are playing and when; the DDN doesn't have to invest a lot to provide at least some cursory coverage in it's publication; and, working together, UD and the DDN may find improved promotion/media coverage could be a win-win for both attendance and circulation.
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Old 09-09-2011, 09:32 AM
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Well said Bat. I am a litte curious as to when an article about the Duquesne game will be out, almost 24 hours from kick-off and haven't seen anything, but I have faith Mr. Harris and Kollars won't let the Flyer faithful down this week.

Go Flyers!
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Old 09-09-2011, 04:53 PM
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Such Forum activity

Well this thread certainly got some activity, the most in two years. The replies to a June 2009 post "Finally - A Welcome Stadium Deal" was the last thread to exceed the "Doug Harris" thread.

The improvements in the stadium were a real positive for our team and here's hoping that this thread will lead to publishing a newspaper story about each of the next ten games.
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Old 09-09-2011, 10:20 PM
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See you at the Flyers Club Tailgate before the Dukes Game

Today I had the privilege of meeting with Cincinnati Reds Marketing Manager Lisa Braun. She shared some great ideas about how the Reds put fannies in the seats. I'll pass them along in my next post.

Meanwhile, I hope to see you all at the Flyers Club tailgate and the UD/Duquesne football game tomorrow (Saturday)!
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
John, you make a valid point...a lot of us on this board "talk past" each other, and quite often it appears people dig-in their positions and the posts take on the characteristics of a debating society. It seems to me, however, that the frustration exhibited by a number of posters at the lack of coverage by the DDN of our non-revenue sports is dismissed by others as being an over reaction and this lack of coverage can simply be explained due to: no real interest by the public as evidenced by poor attendance at the sporting events in question; an effort has been made by UD to promote interest and that's all UD can do and this should be sufficient; and, it costs too much for the DDN to cover the games. Well, apparently there is interest by quite a few people and there is a feeling that: UD has been ineffective in promoting our non-generating sports and this should not simply be accepted but reviewed to see what could be done better; attendance may benefit from better, more targeted promotion so the public had a better idea of who we are playing and when; the DDN doesn't have to invest a lot to provide at least some cursory coverage in it's publication; and, working together, UD and the DDN may find improved promotion/media coverage could be a win-win for both attendance and circulation.
When this topic comes up I always think of my conversation with a guy at a baseball game. He said that he was a huge baseball fan and he had just found out about UD baseball. He said "If I had known that I could come watch baseball of this quality for free I would have been here a long time ago".

I had another conversation with someone who said that a friend of his at work is not a sports fan, at all. But somehow he went to a volleyball match and couldn't stop talking about how great it was for weeks.

I believe that there are thousands of people who would become supportive fans if the communication were better. This is not a complaint about Adrienne Green or others who are doing their job as the university wants them to do. They work very hard. But, I think they need another person who hits the streets

I think it would make a great marketing experiment for the students.

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Old 09-10-2011, 08:58 AM
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Blatant Error

Saturday morning trouble on the internet site for DDN.

Headline for a story says: QB Bardo a Steady Presence.

But the story is about the volleyball team loss to FSU!

Not a Harris problem but whoever posts this stuff at 4:06am was "asleep".

Or maybe it is the size of the moon or something. My Winston Salem Journal had the Indians-Chicago score reversed - again. The tribe losses enough without help.
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Old 09-10-2011, 09:52 AM
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Thank you, Mr. Harris

http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayto...1-1250378.html

Thank you, Mr. Harris, for the article on UD QB Will Bardo. I look forward to seeing your post-game article as well.
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:59 PM
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I concur Jmitch. Thank You Mr. Harris. Look forward to the post game and beyond.
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Old 09-11-2011, 09:41 AM
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The DDN had a nice preview piece about the UD/Duquesne game and they followed that up with a good report on the game by Doug Harris, so I think they should be acknowledged for doing a good job in covering this game. On the other hand, I read in another thread that UD apparently "promoted" our game against the Dukes by having "political candidate lawn-sized" posters out around Welcome Stadium...if this is the best UD can do to promote our games we're in trouble. Geeeze, PTAs do a better job of promoting bake sales at the local elementary school than that lame effort. Does anyone know if UD, or the Student Government, does any pre-game promotion on campus to get the students stirred up? Maybe the kids in the Red Scare can be enlisted to fire up the student body to support the games and get out to Welcome Stadium. Anyway, just my two cents again. Thank you DDN and Doug Harris for the reporting this week and UD... if lawn sized posters is the best that you can do...try harder!
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Old 09-17-2011, 09:53 AM
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It seems to me that the DDN and Doug Harris have picked up their coverage of UD sports. There was a nice article by DH on our Lady Flyers recently and a blurb about our volleyball team's win over Cornell as well as a nice preview piece on our FB game against Marist today. So, kudos to both the DDN and Doug Harris for this. Now what has UD done to further promote our games on Campus with the student body and in the community?
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Old 09-18-2011, 09:19 PM
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I am at a complete loss as to how to get students to attend games at Welcome Stadium. I have personally spoken with students that would rather watch a Notre Dame on TV as oppossed to going over to Welcome.... I saw where a recent soccer game drew over 1000 fans. Volleyball hits that mark as well. Both are on campus. If we played football at Baujan, we would get more students. Playing off campus is just not drawing the students. Men's basketball is different for many reasons. I have seen UD run contests on dorm floors for football attendance, run busses to and from Welcome Stadium and even bring back tailgates to a degree.... About the only thing I can think of is a FREE tailgate for any UD student. The "investment" in a few hot dogs and drinks would be worth it to get students behind the team.
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Old 09-18-2011, 09:33 PM
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I will say that there was a noticeable student presence at the Marist game. I sit on the complete opposite side of the homestand as the "student section", but there were enough of them making enough of a commotion that it got my attention. This is the first time that I have been able to hear the students from where I sent. Hopefully these students will spread the word about the Football Flyers.
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Old 09-18-2011, 10:55 PM
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Not having Welcome Stadium within the main campus footprint is not helping student attendance. And as I said in other threads, Welcome Stadium itself does not present the kind of football Saturday most college students are wanting.

The stadium might as well belong to Urbana University of Wittenberg. The end zones say welcome stadium and kettering health network. There are soccer field lines on the fieldturf. A gigantic sign on the exterior says "Dayton Public Schools". And thats exactly how it feels: like an inner city communal HS football complex thats stuck in the 1970s.

UD students watch a lot of TV and see all the fun other students are having in their big university specific stadiums at Georgia, Michigan, Florida, Texas, or Oregon and none of that is even remotely captured at Welcome Stadium -- even on an infinitesimal level.

What UD needs is a football stadium on par With Jesse Owens Memorial Stadium (track and field) at Ohio State. Its incorporated directly into the campus, it is not a shared facility, its branded everywhere as an Ohio State landmark, and does not feel old and outdated. Because it isnt. Its just 10-12 years old. Its about the same size as Welcome, but they recently put in a natural grass surface. Its a VERY nice facility for track and soccer. Probably one of the nicest in the country.

Students want to capture that campus feel of game day at the football stadium. Welcome Stadium will never have that. Its like using a communal restroom. There is no individuality, no ownership, no pride in saying "this is our football program's identity".

Now, lets also realize that UD football is FCS non-scholarship. That alone is going to keep most students away, unless those things I mentioned are there to help win them over. Students are just not that interested in supporting a lower level football program, especially one that offers absolutely no path to the post-season. There is no end-game in the program other than PFL title which is worth about as much as a cup of coffee in the college football world.

Like basketball, the only thing that matters is what you do in the postseason.

So theres an obvious ceiling to football support thats quite low compared to most other football programs. The reasons soccer and volleyball do well is they have all the things football doesnt: direct on campus access, branded UD-specific facilities, and a path to the NCAAs where Notre Dame and UCLA also participate. Students want to support the highest level of athletics.

All that being said, I think UD football deserves a much better home than Welcome. I think UD needs to somehow buy the Mont. County fairgrounds and build a 10,000 seat football stadium there thats like Jesse Owens.

We know football at UD will never make money. But if UD is adamant about keeping the program around, either give it the facility the program deserves based on historical program success, or just get rid of football altogether.

Im from the point of view that you either do things right, or dont do them at all. Id rather get rid of UD football and soccer and volleyball and not have them at all if our efforts to create as competitive a program as possible were half-baked attempts. Its just not worth the time and effort to go half-way. Id rather those resources went elsewhere where the full commitment was. But if UD wants to keep UD football, nothing will change until some of the things I mentioned take place.

Some things will never change regardless. You will never see 3,500 students at a UD football game. We dont even get 3,500 students to basketball games. Its an orphan program without a clear goal, other than to be used as a dangle to recruit excellent students that might otherwise go to other schools and not play football at all because they are a few inches too short or too slow for major football. A lot of these kids plan to just stop playing football after HS and concentrate on studies. But many of them are bright students. UD football is a nice sales tool to improve the UD academic pool.

From an athletics point of view however, I dont see much money thrown at it to address my concerns until theres a playoff route from the PFL. There has to be a payoff for spending more money on the program. Simply going 11-0 instead of 10-1 and winning the PFL isnt enough.

The question then becomes, will UD football go on like this indefinitely, or is there an end point where the road finally ends and UD goes in a new direction. With the money UD throws at football, they could start a varsity NCAA lacrosse team. UD's club lacrosse team is one of the best in the country. The plot then thickens when money is allocated.

I dont see a lot of cheap solutions to the obvious problems. I think its status quo for the foreseeable future.

Edit: the final crutch is UD football offers nothing in the conference shakeup landscape. Hardly anyone else plays FCS non scholly football. Only FBS football gives you leverage. So its an expenditure that buys us nothing in the world of athletic department strength and leverage. Were those dollars used to fund competitive D-I lacrosse, swimming/diving, or other olympic sports also played by other prospective league members, they would give us a greater leg up.

Im not advocating dumping UD football. Just pointing out the pros and cons of having it, and the challenges we face to support it and have success with it.
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  #84  
Old 09-19-2011, 09:19 AM
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Three strikes Chris.

"Now, lets also realize that UD football is FCS non-scholarship."

"UD needs to somehow buy the Mont. County fairgrounds and build a 10,000 seat football stadium there thats like Jesse Owens."

"We know football at UD will never make money."

_________________________________

I have always loved watching UD football, going back to the 50's. Wouldn't miss a game if I were still living in the Dayton area today. That said, there would have to be a paradigm shift in administration thinking to overcome the above.

Lately, being totally objective on this turmoil in college football realignments, is it possible that our "club-like" football approach has a negative effect on those who might look at Dayton as basketball conference member? It seems to brand us as a low-mid major.

What I am saying is that the U just might be at a point where it's time to fish or cut bait on football. Elevate it or drop it. By elevate it I mean embrace the world of scholarship football at an appropriate level that gets us competing for a bid leading to a national title. Then decisions regarding a stadium, locker rooms, et.al. that affect our ability to compete will be made with a goal in mind. In our current strata, we have proven we don't need anything to recruit and win, so what is the incentive to change?


2 cents

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Old 09-19-2011, 10:09 AM
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It may have been that since only

Originally Posted by jmitch View Post
I will say that there was a noticeable student presence at the Marist game. I sit on the complete opposite side of the homestand as the "student section", but there were enough of them making enough of a commotion that it got my attention. This is the first time that I have been able to hear the students from where I sent. Hopefully these students will spread the word about the Football Flyers.
about 2600 fans showed up, the student section seemed louder.... I just cannot understand why the Dayton community does not support its only Division I college football team.... I have often thought that the fairgrounds would make a good site for a UD Football stadium, but even that is still more or less "off campus". Perhaps as the campus grows into its new, expanded footprint, neither Welcome or the fairgrounds would feel like "off campus". We will be a Welcome for years to come so I would like to see a pedestrian bridge built across the river that would allow students to walk to the Arena/Welcome area directly from UD property. I used to walk along the street, but today's students just do not want to do that.... As for our "level" of play.... The press and UD itself need to get over the statements that we are playing schools and conferences that provide athletic scholarships for football. Big whoop! We have chosen to use a different model and we are playing FCS level football. We will have an automatic bid to the FCS playoffs in a few years and we just need to go out and play any FCS team any time, anywhere and win a few games. You NEVER see an Ivy League press release or story that claims they are "playing up" because they are playing a team like Cal Poly that provides 63 athletic scholarships for football.... They just go and play AND compete. End of story.... (Yale will be playing Cal Poly in the future). In many respects, UD and the PFL have been and continue to be their own worst enemy. We still want to cling to the whole "Pioneer League" premise of I-AAA football. That ship sailed way back in 1991 and we need to get over it. We play FCS football, plain and simple. Our funding model is 100% irrelevant. It is what it is and we need to be successful in using this model. We will get a playoff bid and we need to start acting like we belong to FCS, not like we are some kind of NCAA rebel. By the way, did you notice that "vaunted" Villanova, the team considering a move to FBS, just lost to the NEC's Monmouth this past weekend? Guess what, the PFL can and should compete with ANY team in FCS period.
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:10 AM
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Several years ago, my wife and I were given a nice tour of the then-new Donaher Center at the Arena and, my recollection is, there was a fully equipped locker room and weight room on site for the football team. That appeared to be a pretty healthy investment for our football program that would be discarded if any move were made to relocate to the Fairgrounds (although the equipment could be moved, the physical plant would go wanting.) In addition, UD has quite a bit on it's plate already from the standpoint of a capital development plan without adding football to the mix.

We all have our own rationals for why attendance in general is lacking or why our student body doesn't support our football team the way we used to back-in-the-day. Undoubtedly the site location and the amenities, or lack thereof, of Welcome Stadium are part of the problem. However, IMHO, I think playing games at 1:00 PM doesn't help (especially with tOSU playing at that time); students like to "sleep in" on Saturdays and a Saturday night game was always great for a date night. In addition, the lack of true rivalries doesn't help matters...hopefully rivalries can be developed, but most of the schools we meet in the PFL we don't compete against in any of our other sports (especially basketball) so there is a lack of continuity as far as developing a true rivalry goes. To get the students fired up, we need to develop rivalries and game times that would appeal to students, then the site location won't matter so much. UD could work with the Student Council or Alumni groups to promote attendance (maybe having a "Greek Night", for instance, or hosting special recognition ceremonies for student service organizations at half time, etc.) A foot bridge over the river is a great idea (but probably too costly at this point), but hopping on a UD shuttle bus to "Welcome" wouldn't be too much of a problem...heck, when UD had the West Campus at University Hall, we did it every day as freshmen. Overall, I think UD is in pretty good shape with the FB program, but we need to do something to change the dynamics with developing rivalries that span other sports and maybe push hard for more Saturday night games at UD (I know there will be push-back from other member schools about night games, but heck it may benefit all the other PFL programs if incorporated across the board.)

The aforementioned are not meant to be all curative, I just hope UD is exploring different ideas to boost attendance and get the students more involved. When I was on campus many moons ago, going to UD football games was a big part of the Fall social calendar, and I hate to think our undergrads are missing out on that.
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:19 AM
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The answer to the student football attendance issue is 3.2 beer. Get the state to issue a special exemption for UD tailgate parties and allow 18 year olds to drink it.
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:31 AM
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Heck, even back in the late '60's and early '70s we didn't drink no stinkin' 3.2 beer (well sometimes, I guess). I'm sure if that were an issue, today's students would have enough ingenuity to get around that little problem. During football games at Baujan Field you would hear the clinking and smashing of empty rum bottles hitting the ground beneath the student bleacher section at the east end of the stadium during the games. I think UD sold a record number of cokes back then.
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Old 09-19-2011, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
Heck, even back in the late '60's and early '70s we didn't drink no stinkin' 3.2 beer (well sometimes, I guess). I'm sure if that were an issue, today's students would have enough ingenuity to get around that little problem. During football games at Baujan Field you would hear the clinking and smashing of empty rum bottles hitting the ground beneath the student bleacher section at the east end of the stadium during the games. I think UD sold a record number of cokes back then.
I remember those sounds well.
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Old 09-19-2011, 08:01 PM
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It's a MARKETING problem

UD students and the Dayton, Ohio general public don't know non-BCS FBS...from NAIA...from FCS...from D2. That is not the problem.

We play great football in an adequate stadium. That is not the problem.

UD needs to ramp up the marketing!

Flyer Football must become the THING TO DO on a Fall Saturday.

I am totally certain that this attendance problem CAN and MUST be solved!
The Dayton Dragons do it very well. (Granted the flavor of our marketing must be a but different.) Next post I'll pass along some wisdom from the Cinci Reds marketing VP ASAP!!!
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Old 09-19-2011, 09:02 PM
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Dragons play in the nicest Single A baseball facility in the country, and nicer than most AAA faiclities. Its a Taj Majal of baseball.

People also dont go to Dragons games to watch baseball. They go for potato sack races, Heater, and Karaoke. The fact that a baseball game breaks out in between the entertainment is just a bonus.
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:19 PM
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That's all marketing Chris!

Would it be so wrong to build a fun atmosphere at UD football? ND has a leprechaun running around, the Buckeyes has some guy wearing a nut for a head. College football is not a high mass.

The stadium is nothing special, but neither is ND's. It's just an oversized Welcome stadium with crummy old bathrooms, pipes hanging down everywhere, a parking nightmare and awful seating.

Welcome Stadium is not the problem. So get over it!
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Old 09-20-2011, 08:58 AM
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The thing about "marketing" for football is that as near as I can tell it has never been tried on any significant scale. Being an Engineer, I really struggle with the creative skills needed to "market" UD sports beyond men's basketball. I noticed one of those electronic bill boards along a highway here in Metro-Detroit that had an advertisement for Eastern Michigan football. EMU plays FBS ball in the shadow, (literally), of UM. The last I checked, they were lucky to draw 4000 to a home game in Ypsilanti, MI. So, was the billboard ad effective? Maybe but it seems much like UD, there needs to be a more sustained and coordinated effort. UD seems to use a scatter gun approach. Different things are tried from time to time, but there just does not seem to be a highly dedicated, consistent, long term effort to market non-men’s basketball sports. Over the years many good ideas have been thrown out on this forum and a few have actually been implemented. I have always thought that free tickets at grocery stores or some kind of way to “earn” tickets through purchases might be interesting. A butt in the seats still might buy a hot dog, hot chocolate or maybe even a shirt or hat…. Revenue from tickets when you only draw 2000 to 3000 fans is just not that much…. Some have talked about targeting the senior crowd. Many seniors attend games now, but there is certainly room for growth. Youth leagues, high schools, middle schools, elementary schools, it certainly seems like more, much more could be done. I have often wondered why a marketing class would not take on the challenge. I have come to the conclusion that it simply cannot be a one shot deal. It is going to take a long term, coordinated, targeted, well planned and executed business plan. This is simply something that cannot be accomplished in a semester or two, (see scatter gun approach). UD needs a full time non-men’s basketball marketing person and maybe eventually staff to accomplish this task. Perhaps a rich alumni needs to endow this type of position, much like some of the coaching positions are endowed…. Heck, maybe a rich alumni is not needed, maybe just a bunch of alums with an interest in non-men’s basketball sports could accomplish the same task….
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:06 PM
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I simply believe that if the Athletic Department took a more proactive approach in attacking the lack of interest in our FB program, they could make some serious headway in boosting attendance. If they have the attitude, however, that there really isn't much point in going at it full bore because of a mind set that thinks along the lines of : Welcome Stadium stinks; Welcome Stadium is off campus; nobody really cares about non-BCS football to begin with; and, well, the other teams we play will balk at night games so why even bother pushing for a change in scheduling. With this type of mind-set, what we get for promotion are poster-size signs lining Edwin Moses Blvd announcing the upcoming game or an electronic billboard notice along I-75 and a lack of interest.

Instead why don't we try to persuade our AD try to persuade our coaches to schedule a few BB games with the likes of Davidson, Drake, San Diego, Marist, etc. in the PFL (where we may be able to set up some rivalries) instead of the likes of Middle Tennessee, American U, Mount St. Mary's, etc.; or perhaps we should try to schedule FB games with Georgetown, 'Nova, Yale, etc. to spice things up a bit and drive more interest (maybe that could even lead to scheduling some BB match-ups with those schools later on.) Maybe UD has tried this or something along these lines, but it sure doesn't feel that they've put a lot of heart into trying to alter the current landscape. Maybe a minimal investment to improve the seating in designated areas for older Alums or those who would appreciate more comfortable accommodations, where there can be some bench backs put in (hopefully at minimal cost...hey, maybe charge an extra buck or two for reserved seating in that area) or, maybe some overhead heaters under the stands for when the weather turns cold. Obviously I'm not a marketing guy, and there may be practical reasons for not doing some or any of the aforementioned, but it would sure be nice to see a little more tangible effort put forth by the AD's office to bolster fan interest. I know, we hear all the time or at least in several posts about how much UD has tried to do something and how large the staff is, but c'mon, we should see better results than what we've seen to date, unless they really don't think it's worth the effort.
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Old 09-21-2011, 11:17 PM
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More Thoughts about Building Flyer Football Attendance

How low must attendance sink before the administration concludes that our heritage Flyer football program is simply irrelevant? Frustration about UD's poor football attendance results in UD Pride threads like this one every year.

Here's some food for thought from Lisa Braun, Cincinnati Reds marketing manager. Lisa outlined her sports marketing philosophy recently at a conference I attended.

Lisa categorizes the Reds' target audiences as follows:
1. Avid fans...tend to be older and season ticket holders
2. Casual fans...tend to be younger and attend ocassionally
3. Entertainment seekers...enjoy the experience of being at the ball park
4. Families with children age 12 or less...(Mom is the target...attend 1 to 3 games/year)
5. Group Sales

Lisa contends that she cannot maximize attendance for 81 home games without target marketing to all five of these groups.

(Why would Flyer Football be any different?)

Reds marketing consists of heavy advertising, digital media (web sites, etc.), strategic profiles and "consumer clubs" like "Reds heads" kids, and (5000+) birthday babies.

Events include "GE Night" for 15,000 employee/attendees, straight-A nights, Star Wars Night, Baby Night and Dog Night.

In the absence of strong UD football rivalries, and given unlikely post season prospects, PFL reluctance to schedule night games, a prohibition on homecoming and the deluge of BCS football on HDTV, fans will not magically "show up". It will take an agressively marketed,total entertainment package to build the fan base.

Perhaps UD could ink a local marketing agreement with the Dragons? It could be profitable and rewarding for both organizations.

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  #96  
Old 09-22-2011, 09:08 AM
CE80 CE80 is offline
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Originally Posted by chriscage View Post
a prohibition on homecoming
What happend with homecoming?
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  #97  
Old 09-22-2011, 09:48 AM
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Two kinds of discipline

Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
What happend with homecoming?
Students and their off-campus visitors drank themselves out of homecoming.

This is a bit like the nuns did to us half-century ago - punish the whole class because of "William". When we got to the public high school, "William" saw teachers paddles and the classes went on without further disturbance.
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Old 09-22-2011, 10:05 AM
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Reunion Weekend has become a much better event than Homecoming ever was.
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Old 09-22-2011, 12:46 PM
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Seriously Misguided...!

Originally Posted by ud69 View Post
Reunion Weekend has become a much better event than Homecoming ever was.
I understand your basic sentiment, but this statement could not be any more misguided and inaccurate. Homecoming is an activity that is centered on a football game. It engages all parts of the university community, students, alumni, (many which are also parents); even the local community might get involved. There is a reason why at schools like UD, homecoming is typically the best attended football game of the year. Reunion Weekend does absolutely nothing; let me repeat that, nothing for the football program. In and of itself it is a great event, but to ever claim that it somehow replaces a fall, football season, homecoming event is way off base. The closest thing we have now is parents’ weekend.... Let's just say it is also not a substitute for homecoming. If virtually every other football playing school in the country can have a homecoming, I simply do not understand why UD cannot revive this time honored tradition. Yeah, I know all about why it was canceled.... It must be simply the grace of God that allowed me to somehow live through 4 homecomings during my time at UD.... Even more amazing is that the campus and city of Dayton were also still standing.... It is long past time for UD to bring back homecoming.
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4 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to DetroitFlyer For This Totally Excellent Post:
CE80 (09-22-2011), chriscage (09-22-2011), Lifelong Flyer Fan (09-22-2011), UDEE79 (09-22-2011)
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