We absolutely are very young and inexperienced!!!!!!

[FLYER5]

Originally Posted by priceg75 Honest question. Should Archie be fired from Indiana? He is 5-5. They lost at home to Indiana State, whose only other D-I win this year was over Air Force at home. If not, why not?

Good point. I wasn't one that called for his head when he had early failures here and seemingly was on the brink of losing the team. The thing that does stick with me is once his team reached the level of tournament contender they never regressed again. And never looked back. I'm hoping for similar results from this staff. As long as we get there, even if it takes three seasons, I want to stay there.

[priceg75]

Originally Posted by udscott omg, your argument does not even hold water, Indiana has lost to like 2-3 top 15 programs, we got losses to Penn, and 2 other meatball schools, Archie has 4 straight NCAA appearances with a elite 8 in there, AG has 4 out of 6 years at Alabama below .500 in conference, at the end of the day, the talent UD draws should beat the meatball teams, You have not heard me once complain about a loss to a decent program, its our losses vs the bottom of the barrel

So, Indiana State is a good program?

AG didn't win the conference 3 straight years at VCU, which is absolutely a program at "our level"? With 2 NCAA appearances? And 1 win?

So like, that doesn't hold water?

[flybye]

Guys, Our offense with 4 seniors was not very good last year. Thank God they were seniors and played good D...So the Northwestern game. the offense was horrible and then a complete debacle the last 3 games, GW/Davidson/WS and Archie didn't have an answer. I think we under achieved last year. Should have won A Ten Tourney, which he never did and win at last an NCAA game with 4 Seniors and a Junior.. Not a good ending and then he quit and we lost our best recruit. When John and a skinny Freshman whom ya got lste are running the point it will take a while. Get X back and it will get better!!

[MNFats]

Originally Posted by udscott omg, your argument does not even hold water, Indiana has lost to like 2-3 top 15 programs, we got losses to Penn, and 2 other meatball schools, Archie has 4 straight NCAA appearances with a elite 8 in there, AG has 4 out of 6 years at Alabama below .500 in conference, at the end of the day, the talent UD draws should beat the meatball teams, You have not heard me once complain about a loss to a decent program, its our losses vs the bottom of the barrel

Indiana lost at home, by 21, to a team that is 4-5 and went 0-3 in Charleston. If your name was "iuscott" you would have called for his head after the first game. The talent that IU draws should beat a meatball team like Indiana State....right?

And your stats for AG are both cherry-picked and inaccurate. He was under .500 in 3 of his 6 seasons in conference play in the SEC (not 4 seasons as you quoted). He actually had a winning record in conference play in his time at Alabama.

Go back a little farther (which you didn't want to do because it doesn't help you) and you will see him averaging 25 wins per season with 2 NCAA trips in 3 years at VCU. His performance at VCU is a better comp to UD than Alabama.

Is he the right coach for us? Maybe he is - maybe he isn't. Anyone who thinks they know the answer after 9 games is purely guessing. I'm willing to give him some time to prove himself.

[FLYER5]

Originally Posted by flybye Guys, Our offense with 4 seniors was not very good last year. Thank God they were seniors and played good D...So the Northwestern game. the offense was horrible and then a complete debacle the last 3 games, GW/Davidson/WS and Archie didn't have an answer. I think we under achieved last year. Should have won A Ten Tourney, which he never did and win at last an NCAA game with 4 Seniors and a Junior.. Not a good ending and then he quit and we lost our best recruit. When John and a skinny Freshman whom ya got lste are running the point it will take a while. Get X back and it will get better!!

I think some will agree that there was an underlying rift amongst the team last year. Whether it was because Archie loosened the reigns because he felt it was his last year I can't say. But there was something going on.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by FLYER5 I think some will agree that there was an underlying rift amongst the team last year. Whether it was because Archie loosened the reigns because he felt it was his last year I can't say. But there was something going on.

Put me down as one who believes they under achieved the last 2 years of AM's reign. With all the experience they had in their first 2 years, Archie did not get nearly enough out of them their last 2 years. Both years they struggled to even get into the tourney. I also never thought the recent success seemed to help recruiting and Junior and Soph classes sure aren't proving that wrong to date. I think the under achieving was impacted by the recruiting.

I didn't like the AM hire for other reasons - because I knew he'd sell high - and we'd likely be right where we are now. I was also critical of his abilities way too early and boy was that crow dry and disgusting.

I'd rather have a coach that has shown he can recruit and be successful and will likely never leave than the coaching carousel we havent proven will work for us.
Posted via Mobile Device

[udscott]

Originally Posted by priceg75 So, Indiana State is a good program? AG didn't win the conference 3 straight years at VCU, which is absolutely a program at "our level"? With 2 NCAA appearances? And 1 win? So like, that doesn't hold water?

AG coached at VCU when they were in the CAA, not the A-10, they played absolutely no one in conference, and his record got worse every year at VCU, when in actuality it should have got better with his own players

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer Put me down as one who believes they under achieved the last 2 years of AM's reign. With all the experience they had in their first 2 years, Archie did not get nearly enough out of them their last 2 years. Both years they struggled to even get into the tourney. I also never thought the recent success seemed to help recruiting and Junior and Soph classes sure aren't proving that wrong to date. I think the under achieving was impacted by the recruiting.

They got a 7 seed his last year, that is not struggling to make the tourney.

And Archie landed a lot more 4 star recruits/transfers than any other UD coach.

[ud2]

And they got a 7 seed in Archie's 2nd to last year too. Again, that is not struggling.

Sheesh, get your facts straight Marysville Flyer!

[priceg75]

Originally Posted by udscott AG coached at VCU when they were in the CAA, not the A-10, they played absolutely no one in conference, and his record got worse every year at VCU, when in actuality it should have got better with his own players

One could argue that 2006-2008 era CAA is not far off from what we are seeing in this year's A10. A10 will not be a top-10 conference this season, most likely. But Grant is 3-0 against teams in the conference that is 1 ahead of us, the MAC.

So, you are arguing that going from 16-2 in conference to 14-4 is a significant drop off? Are you that married to this argument, that you are completely unwilling to acknowledge there could be another side that is not simply "blind to facts" or full of "Anthony Grant apologists"?

Because I am totally willing to say that I have some reservations about Anthony Grant's ability to lead this program. But I am certainly not willing to write him off after 9 games.

You are being ridiculous, but as is customary in today's climate of rhetoric, you are sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring alternate viewpoints. Keep on. But your jumping up and down with a red face will do no good.

[chicago92]

Step away from the ledge folks...we are what I thought we would be.

While I know this has been discussed before I feel like it needs to be brought up again. We have a team with very little experience returning and as fans should have been prepared for a season of ups and downs. If you were expecting another NCAA tournament run, please send me your rose colored glasses. I am a realist and I also recognize how spoiled we all were watching last years senior class for 4 years.

My prediction for the season was 18-12...that might be in jeopardy at this point. Truthfully, based on the following we should be struggling and we are.

Of the players that played at the end of last year here are the minutes they played:
- X. Williams - 728 - out for extended time this year.
- Ryan Mikesell - 665 - out for the season.
- D. Davis - 644
- J. Crosby - 424
- S. Miller - 316 - out.
- J. Cunningham - 162
- T. Landers - 52

So our returning players currently playing played approximately 20% of last season. I am not of the mindset that all is lost with our Flyers but we are in a rebuilding year and you naysayers need to acknowledge it or you will forever be miserable.

Anthony Grant was not set up for success in year one nor would any other coach have been. He will push our players to get better everyday and they will work hard. I for one am excited to watch players develop this year (it will be painful) but we have a lot of talented young players that will continue to get better.

Go Flyers!

[SeasonTicketFan]

Rebuilding after success is hard to swallow. Archie would have received a hall pass for this team and slow start, but no other coach would have received one. It is often difficult for fans to accept that good freshman (and lots of them on the same team) are nowhere near as capable as good experienced upper classman.

Unless you have studs, which we don’t, more than one freshman on the floor at any time is a problem.

[jack72]

How did we underachieve last year? We had no center/big. Cunningham was hurt and he is a power forward, as was Pollard, who was hurt a bit. Miller was a forward. Our fifth starter last year needed to be Steve, and instead we got a role player.

BTW we played a great game at Davidson that we won in OT, against a very good team. So no, we did not flop for the entire end of season.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by priceg75 Honest question. Should Archie be fired from Indiana? He is 5-5. They lost at home to Indiana State, whose only other D-I win this year was over Air Force at home. If not, why not?

We should be fair and evaluate AG after 3 or 4 years.

But, if I play devil's advocate: IU is getting compliments from other coaches who are impressed with their offense and effort. But, they are obviously struggling on both ends of the court at times, and their effort is probably not so good at times.

We are struggling at times on both ends of the court, but our effort is mostly good. We are also getting compliments from opposing coaches.

Crean's first 3 years at IU, after taking over for the scandal-ridden Kelvin Sampson, were non-NCAAT years with losing records, perhaps Archie is on a better track than that.

AG is on track to have a worse start at UD vs. Archie's first year at UD. Perhaps Archie was left with a better roster in his first year at UD. But, AG was definitely left with a much better overall program at UD that was on the rise vs. the UD program that BG left Archie.

Archie has 4 losses to teams that are projected rpi #61 or better, he has just the one bad ISU loss. We have 4 losses to teams that are projected rpi #77 or worse.

I think Archie has it much easier in that he is taking over from a fired coach, whereas AG is taking over from a beloved coach.

[SeasonTicketFan]

Originally Posted by ud2 We should be fair and evaluate AG after 3 or 4 years. Perhaps Archie was left with a better roster in his first year at UD..

Archie definitely had a more experienced and talented roster. Future NBA player Chris Johnson, Paul Williams, Kevin Dillard and more...

[UD62]

Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan Archie definitely had a more experienced and talented roster. Future NBA player Chris Johnson, Paul Williams, Kevin Dillard and more...

In my view, AM rode one good recruiting class to a P5 job. He is a great in game coach, and will do well at IU. He was not a great recruiter at UD,(did do well with transfers though) and left AG with a far weaker roster than BG left him. If comments made to Cohill are correct, he really didn't have the best interest of UD in mind. We were a get ticket punched stop for him. Nothing wrong with that but while he did elevate the profile of UD while here, his lack of recruiting results have us where we are now. AG hit a home run on his one recruit for next year, but it will take a number of those kind of results to get where he wants the program to be. Way too soon to evaluate AG's game effectivness as he tries to put a consistant team on the floor and do it with very young inconsistant players. One good thing about freshmen is thay become sophmores.

[Bucketnight]

Originally Posted by jack72 How did we underachieve last year? We had no center/big. Cunningham was hurt and he is a power forward, as was Pollard, who was hurt a bit. Miller was a forward. Our fifth starter last year needed to be Steve, and instead we got a role player. BTW we played a great game at Davidson that we won in OT, against a very good team. So no, we did not flop for the entire end of season.

I believe the term is revisionist history.

[NCkevi]

Originally Posted by jack72 How did we underachieve last year?

One the one hand we did finish the year as the #1 seed in the A10 so can't say that was underachieving but we also lost our last three games of the year (with a senior dominated team) including the opening round of the A10 tournament as the #1 seed vs. the #9 seed

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by NCkevi One the one hand we did finish the year as the #1 seed in the A10 so can't say that was underachieving but we also lost our last three games of the year (with a senior dominated team) including the opening round of the A10 tournament as the #1 seed vs. the #9 seed

My brother and I both have a the theory that a team can sense the vibe of a coach. There was plenty of conjecture about Crean being fired at IU at the end of the regular season and it makes me wonder if AM didn’t subliminally put out vibes that the UD Seniors/team did pick up on- hence the lackluster finish. I’m not sure I’d say underachieving but ironic that the 3 game skid appeared when you would have least expected it.

I think this year could be a bumpy ride but i can historically remember slow starts with the Flyers that ended strong. If you as a UD fan aren’t excited by the play of this freshmen class, you aren’t paying attention; i believe its going to be special when they are juniors and seniors. I also believe we haven’t seen a healthy XW at all this year and when we do (hopefully soon) we will see a different mindset of toughness out there in terms of leadership. Josh and DD can’t do it all.
Posted via Mobile Device

[CE80]

Originally Posted by UD62 In my view, AM rode one good recruiting class to a P5 job. He is a great in game coach, and will do well at IU. He was not a great recruiter at UD,(did do well with transfers though) and left AG with a far weaker roster than BG left him. If comments made to Cohill are correct, he really didn't have the best interest of UD in mind. We were a get ticket punched stop for him. Nothing wrong with that but while he did elevate the profile of UD while here, his lack of recruiting results have us where we are now. AG hit a home run on his one recruit for next year, but it will take a number of those kind of results to get where he wants the program to be. Way too soon to evaluate AG's game effectivness as he tries to put a consistant team on the floor and do it with very young inconsistant players. One good thing about freshmen is thay become sophmores.

To further pile on the AM out for himself, probably my biggest knock against the AM era is that AM surrounded himself with assistants that were never to be seriously considered for the HC job after he left. I hope there are assistants on AG's staff that could some day assume the HC position at UD.

[hawkoooo]

I think some people on here are drastically downplaying the type of situation this team is in. This team without juniors and would be juniors Mikesell, X, and Miller is a trainwreck. Say what you want about Miller but he brings size, experience, and the ability to hit a 3 when things just aren't clicking on O. I have no doubt in my mind Mikesell would be starting right now if he were healthy. Same argument for X.

That means we are down THREE would be junior starters and lost 4 starters to graduation. Yet somehow we are supposed to be good with a bunch of freshman and Crosby/Landers? Landers is basically a freshman in terms of experience. No Toppin and Pierce clearly isn't ready.

Yet all of this adds up to us having a good season because if we don't it is AG's fault? GET REAL! Without AG we might not have Crutcher, Crosby, Svoboda, or Jordan Davis. Then where would we be? Pray tell!

[TommyGola]

Originally Posted by hawkoooo I think some people on here are drastically downplaying the type of situation this team is in. This team without juniors and would be juniors Mikesell, X, and Miller is a trainwreck. Say what you want about Miller but he brings size, experience, and the ability to hit a 3 when things just aren't clicking on O. I have no doubt in my mind Mikesell would be starting right now if he were healthy. Same argument for X. That means we are down THREE would be junior starters and lost 4 starters to graduation. Yet somehow we are supposed to be good with a bunch of freshman and Crosby/Landers? Landers is basically a freshman in terms of experience. No Toppin and Pierce clearly isn't ready. Yet all of this adds up to us having a good season because if we don't it is AG's fault? GET REAL! Without AG we might not have Crutcher, Crosby, Svoboda, or Jordan Davis. Then where would we be? Pray tell!

Hawkoooo: Very well stated and quite enlightening. You are right; that entire junior class has been decimated. Tough to win without those experienced players. But I like the "young ones in the barn!" We are looking good after this year.

[SeasonTicketFan]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 My brother and I both have a the theory that a team can sense the vibe of a coach. There was plenty of conjecture about Crean being fired at IU at the end of the regular season and it makes me wonder if AM didn’t subliminally put out vibes that the UD Seniors/team did pick up on- hence the lackluster finish. I’m not sure I’d say underachieving but ironic that the 3 game skid appeared when you would have least expected it. I think this year could be a bumpy ride but i can historically remember slow starts with the Flyers that ended strong. If you as a UD fan aren’t excited by the play of this freshmen class, you aren’t paying attention; i believe its going to be special when they are juniors and seniors. I also believe we haven’t seen a healthy XW at all this year and when we do (hopefully soon) we will see a different mindset of toughness out there in terms of leadership. Josh and DD can’t do it all. Posted via Mobile Device

I don't think the seniors wanted to go out flat, despite the vibes. The last 3 games were all able to be explained (even though I was not happy).

GW. Team got too high after beating VCU. Immaturity. Same thing happened AMs first year against Buffalo.

Davidson. They gave us fits in Davidson 1-2 weeks earlier. We got lucky to win first game in OT. They got hot at the end of the game.
Wichita State was a nightmare matchup. They were the better team, just like Syracuse the year before.

In all three games, they played poorly down the stretch which was atypical of them. They could have won 2-3 of those games, maybe...

I don't believe the players quit, checked or let down because of coaching vibe. They might have been spent and not used to being at the top. This program HAS NEVER been good at being top dog. Not enough institutional memory

[steve]

Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan I don't think the seniors wanted to go out flat, despite the vibes. The last 3 games were all able to be explained (even though I was not happy). GW. Team got too high after beating VCU. Immaturity. Same thing happened AMs first year against Buffalo. Davidson. They gave us fits in Davidson 1-2 weeks earlier. We got lucky to win first game in OT. They got hot at the end of the game. Wichita State was a nightmare matchup. They were the better team, just like Syracuse the year before. In all three games, they played poorly down the stretch which was atypical of them. They could have won 2-3 of those games, maybe... I don't believe the players quit, checked or let down because of coaching vibe. They might have been spent and not used to being at the top. This program HAS NEVER been good at being top dog. Not enough institutional memory

I don't think it was not wanting to go out flat as much as they were just a very challenged team offensively. Pollard and Davis just were NOT skilled offensive players and scorers and most definitely in a half-court set. Charles Cooke was about as inconsistent of a shooter/scorer as you'll see. Ryan Mikesell was NOT an offensive player or scoring threat. At some point you need scorers and/or shooters.When you're going against better teams in a tourney those guys are either going to be bigger and/or better skilled players. As hard as they played defensively against WSU in the NCAA there was not one time i felt comfortable watching them offensively or going on a real scoring spree.

It's no different than a defensive-minded team in football. You can only play so much giving up short fields consistently or knowing that you're always going to need stops without the ability to control parts of a game putting the ball in the hoop.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan Archie definitely had a more experienced and talented roster. Future NBA player Chris Johnson, Paul Williams, Kevin Dillard and more...

Originally Posted by UD62 In my view, AM rode one good recruiting class to a P5 job. He is a great in game coach, and will do well at IU. He was not a great recruiter at UD,(did do well with transfers though) and left AG with a far weaker roster than BG left him.

I do not think this roster is as bad as people are making it out to be.

If AM were still our coach, I have little doubt that this group would be playing at a higher level and contending for a NCAAT bid.

Archie did more with less and was great at player development. Archie's first 3 NCAAT teams were not expected to make the NCAAT.

A big part of the problem is the installation of AG's system, which is new and foreign to the entire roster. This group would be doing better if this was AG's 3rd or 4th year, instead of his 1st year.

Add in the fact that IMO Archie's system and player development ability are better than AG's system and player development ability, and you wind up where we currently are.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by hawkoooo That means we are down THREE would be junior starters and lost 4 starters to graduation. Yet somehow we are supposed to be good with a bunch of freshman and Crosby/Landers? Landers is basically a freshman in terms of experience. No Toppin and Pierce clearly isn't ready.

3 would be junior starters? Seriously? What? Do you think Cunningham and/or DD would be on the bench if X Mikesell and Miller were available? Or do you have a lineup of DD playing point? SMH.

Let's get one thing straight, Miller would not be starting, not a chance. Mikesell probably would be coming off the bench too but that one I'm not certain of. But one thing I'm very certain of is the starting lineup would not be Miller, Cunningham, Mikesell, XW and who ever else you throw in there at PG.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by ud2 I do not think this roster is as bad as people are making it out to be. If AM were still our coach, I have little doubt that this group would be playing at a higher level and contending for a NCAAT bid.

I wish there was a way I could take that bet. 2 years of experienced, proven talent had very little margin for error to get in. Why do you think they agreed to play in the holiday tourney they did while AM was still the coach? This was gonna be a rebuilding year even with SM,MW, and RM.
Posted via Mobile Device

[flyerfanatic86]

I'm concerned mostly with some of the coaching moves and less the actual results. Grant never seems to use a timeout (we had all 3 forever in the last game). His offense seems to keep our bigs on the wings too often, where they are effectively neutralized. He refused to leave a zone defense that was getting carved up. There are legitimate questions about the things he can control regardless of personnel.

[UD62]

Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86 I'm concerned mostly with some of the coaching moves and less the actual results. Grant never seems to use a timeout (we had all 3 forever in the last game). His offense seems to keep our bigs on the wings too often, where they are effectively neutralized. He refused to leave a zone defense that was getting carved up. There are legitimate questions about the things he can control regardless of personnel.

His reluctance to leave the zone only tells me that out M2M is awful. given all the moving parts this year it is really hard to judge AG one way or the other. Besides it is way too early.

[hawkoooo]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 3 would be junior starters? Seriously? What? Do you think Cunningham and/or DD would be on the bench if X Mikesell and Miller were available? Or do you have a lineup of DD playing point? SMH. Let's get one thing straight, Miller would not be starting, not a chance. Mikesell probably would be coming off the bench too but that one I'm not certain of. But one thing I'm very certain of is the starting lineup would not be Miller, Cunningham, Mikesell, XW and who ever else you throw in there at PG.

Crosby
DD
Miksell
Sam
Cunningham

Not that crazy. 1 senior and 4 juniors. Sam and Mikesell would FOR SURE have had a chance at a starter spot with X being injured and Kostas always in foul trouble.

Plus, whether or not they would start is a bit of a red herring isn't it? Certainly you aren't arguing that they wouldn't be seeing big minutes right now?

[udscott]

[QUOTE=flyerfanatic86;524686]I'm concerned mostly with some of the coaching moves and less the actual results. Grant never seems to use a timeout (we had all 3 forever in the last game). His offense seems to keep our bigs on the wings too often, where they are effectively neutralized. He refused to leave a zone defense that was getting carved up. There are legitimate questions about the things he can control regardless of personnel

great points, we talked about him never calling timeouts either

[ud2]

Originally Posted by CE80 To further pile on the AM out for himself, probably my biggest knock against the AM era is that AM surrounded himself with assistants that were never to be seriously considered for the HC job after he left. I hope there are assistants on AG's staff that could some day assume the HC position at UD.

Around 15 years of college basketball assistant coaching experience for each of the 3 Archie assistants. What do you want?

All 3 were qualified, and I would have been fine with any of them getting the job.

[CE80]

Originally Posted by ud2 Around 15 years of college basketball assistant coaching experience for each of the 3 Archie assistants. What do you want? All 3 were qualified, and I would have been fine with any of them getting the job.

Assistant coaching experience does not necessarily make a head coach.

Brian Gregory was an assistant at Michigan State for five years, from 1999 to 2003, under head coach Tom Izzo. During that time, the Spartans reached the Final Four three times and won the 2000 national title.

None of Archie's assistants got HC gigs anywhere else, Archie didn't even take them with him.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[podcast411]

Originally Posted by ud2 I do not think this roster is as bad as people are making it out to be.

You are right - it is much much worse.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by hawkoooo Crosby DD Miksell Sam Cunningham Not that crazy. 1 senior and 4 juniors. Sam and Mikesell would FOR SURE have had a chance at a starter spot with X being injured and Kostas always in foul trouble. Plus, whether or not they would start is a bit of a red herring isn't it? Certainly you aren't arguing that they wouldn't be seeing big minutes right now?

And two that you showed are not available. You can't say we're down 3 starters when 3 of the players you just listed are available. That would equal 6 not 5 and last I heard you can only put 5 on the court at the same time.

And no, Sam Miller should not be used as an example of why we're losing. It makes not sense. Sam Miller certainly might have established a role, but not one that has so far made the difference between losing and winning.

[jack72]

Originally Posted by ud2 I do not think this roster is as bad as people are making it out to be. If AM were still our coach, I have little doubt that this group would be playing at a higher level and contending for a NCAAT bid. Archie did more with less and was great at player development. Archie's first 3 NCAAT teams were not expected to make the NCAAT. A big part of the problem is the installation of AG's system, which is new and foreign to the entire roster. This group would be doing better if this was AG's 3rd or 4th year, instead of his 1st year. Add in the fact that IMO Archie's system and player development ability are better than AG's system and player development ability, and you wind up where we currently are.

You cannot be serious. Archie would not have this group close to contending for an NCAA bid. What next the Bengals would be in the playoffs if McCarron was the QB?

This group has two good players, no center and a bunch of deficiencies due to no experience. When you play two or three or four freshmen at all times, they better be darn good and ready, and none of this group are that. When you have only one junior contributing at a high level out of the jr-soph class you are in deep trouble.

UD2 I like most of your posts, but this one needs more thought.

[OSU Flyer]

Originally Posted by CE80 Assistant coaching experience does not necessarily make a head coach. Brian Gregory was an assistant at Michigan State for five years, from 1999 to 2003, under head coach Tom Izzo. During that time, the Spartans reached the Final Four three times and won the 2000 national title. None of Archie's assistants got HC gigs anywhere else, Archie didn't even take them with him.

Ostrom went with him. As did Bill Comer

Allen Griffin went to his alma mater Syracuse

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[OSU Flyer]

We'll never know if Archie would have worked the grad transfer route or reshuffled the roster heading into this year (I suspect Jaaron Simmons would be here). It's an unknowable situation.

Big Steve was someone who I think would have been a big contributor on last year and this years team. This year with anyone coaching if he was still around I think he would have been the focus of the offense

I like Archie but the kindest way I can put it is that we've had some misses among the junior class in recruiting. This should have been a group that's getting the bulk of the minutes and the backbone of the team. Healthy and in school as a full group I'm not sure some in this class are getting minutes or making a significant difference.

Improvement is the name of the game from here on here on out. The young guys getting better and the team improving defensively.

Grant has to get better at adjusting in game. Penn starts out something like 8/15 from 3 against the zone, gotta go back to man. Our man defense isn't good? It can't be worse than letting yourself get torched from 3 all game

Cunningham is our best player and is 22/23 over the last 3 games. Too often they don't even look to get the ball into him down the low. That isn't all defense either keeping him from getting looks. Penn if he got more looks he could have dropped 40 on them. Gotta get the guards to look to feed him more

The half court offense looks lost and aimless at times. Some of it certainly is our inexperience but the legitimate criticisms of his half court offense that cost AG his job at Alabama look like they're still here at times.

I want to win every game but for me this season will be success if we can sit back and April and say folks really blossomed and grew over the course of the season. If we have a good nucleus of young guys for the future then I'll be happy

[SeasonTicketFan]

[QUOTE=OSU Flyer;524727]
Grant has to get better at adjusting in game. Penn starts out something like 8/15 from 3 against the zone, gotta go back to man. QUOTE]

When UD was down 21-7, Anthony switched to a man to man. UD ran off 16 straight points and took the lead. Penn looked lost on offense during that stretch.

At halftime, Peen adjusted and began to attack the man to man just like the zone. In the man to man, they started to get layups and then kick outs.

Anthony tried zone and man to man in both halves. The defensive intensity was just not there. Neither defense worked except for that first half spurt. Anthony was ****ed after the game.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer Ostrom went with him. As did Bill Comer Allen Griffin went to his alma mater Syracuse

Kuwik went to Davidson.

We play Davidson once this year, January 23 at UD Arena, a reunion of sorts.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by jack72 You cannot be serious. Archie would not have this group close to contending for an NCAA bid. What next the Bengals would be in the playoffs if McCarron was the QB? This group has two good players, no center and a bunch of deficiencies due to no experience. When you play two or three or four freshmen at all times, they better be darn good and ready, and none of this group are that. When you have only one junior contributing at a high level out of the jr-soph class you are in deep trouble. UD2 I like most of your posts, but this one needs more thought.

Agree to disagree. See Archie years #3, 4, and 5.

AJ McCarron, the only Bengals qb to win(basically)a playoff game since 1990.

[hawkoooo]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 And two that you showed are not available. You can't say we're down 3 starters when 3 of the players you just listed are available. That would equal 6 not 5 and last I heard you can only put 5 on the court at the same time. And no, Sam Miller should not be used as an example of why we're losing. It makes not sense. Sam Miller certainly might have established a role, but not one that has so far made the difference between losing and winning.

Straw man, never said Sam was the reason. I did say that a big part of why we are losing is that X, Mikesell, and Sam are not available.

That's 55.8 minutes, 18.4 points, 11 rebounds and 6 combined years of postseason experience. How that could be considered insignificant is beyond me.

[Flyer 86]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 My brother and I both have a the theory that a team can sense the vibe of a coach. There was plenty of conjecture about Crean being fired at IU at the end of the regular season and it makes me wonder if AM didn’t subliminally put out vibes that the UD Seniors/team did pick up on- hence the lackluster finish. I’m not sure I’d say underachieving but ironic that the 3 game skid appeared when you would have least expected it. I think this year could be a bumpy ride but i can historically remember slow starts with the Flyers that ended strong. If you as a UD fan aren’t excited by the play of this freshmen class, you aren’t paying attention; i believe its going to be special when they are juniors and seniors. I also believe we haven’t seen a healthy XW at all this year and when we do (hopefully soon) we will see a different mindset of toughness out there in terms of leadership. Josh and DD can’t do it all. Posted via Mobile Device

There might be a little truth to that. The issue i had was that Scoochie, yes our beloved Scooch, would take games off. Can't recall which ones but if you looked at his energy and stats it was clearly there. NOw , he was also capable of turning it on, and taking over games too. So he gets a pass.

But I too believe we underachieved the last 2 years, just not sure which one was worse. Probably the junior year. We had nothing at Syracuse!

Other issues were Pollard in foul trouble often. But other than that, those 4 were amazing. Don't forget injuries to both Cunningham and Mikesell last year. Death of the Big Fella the year before.

With Big Steve and Mikesell healthy this year, we'd have some outside shooting and inside presence.

[Flyer 86]

[QUOTE=SeasonTicketFan;524745]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer Grant has to get better at adjusting in game. Penn starts out something like 8/15 from 3 against the zone, gotta go back to man. QUOTE] When UD was down 21-7, Anthony switched to a man to man. UD ran off 16 straight points and took the lead. Penn looked lost on offense during that stretch. At halftime, Peen adjusted and began to attack the man to man just like the zone. In the man to man, they started to get layups and then kick outs. Anthony tried zone and man to man in both halves. The defensive intensity was just not there. Neither defense worked except for that first half spurt. Anthony was ****ed after the game.

We were very flatfooted the last 8 minutes of the game. Each time we'd score a bucket or two, they'd score three. Like easily.

[Smitty10]

No matter how hard you all try to justify losing to crap teams, all I hear are excuses, excuses, excuses. This team has talent and it's up to the coach to draw it out and turn it into wins. Our coach has experience so there's no learning curve as far as learning how to be a coach. Any coach could've produced the results with these guys we've seen so far, this is UD, we don't want any coach.

But keep making excuses for your beloved alumni and we'll have another 8 years of the Brian Gregory era or more since he's a beloved alumni.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[shocka43]

Dose of reality....

This is a "cupboard" bare year and it isn't anyone's fault...(death, injuries, de-commits)

AG is not on a hot seat and shouldn't be on a hot seat...

Yes, there are valid concerns/conversations to be had regarding X's and O's. (Is it coaching or personnel...may be both...probably is both)..

Freshman are promising...very promising...

If we are having the same conversations 2 years from this date, then the above "sky is falling" conversations are real and there should be serious discussions...

Those with concerns, yes...you have been cheated on before (BG years) where the bill of sale was "wait till next year". I see where people don't want that again and think they see some of the same traits on the court right now. Different scenario right now. BG had success with OP's players in year one. AM left and so did players...as well 3 others lost for this season.

AG wasn't a sentimental hire and hired just because he went here. Guy has had success.

Give it time. If you think losing 80% of returning minutes helps matters, you are delusional. If in 2 years there isn't progress...then fire away. Having those conversations right now is absurd.

[priceg75]

udscott and Smitty are the definition of entitled fans. We deserve to win because... we're Dayton dangit! The uniform itself should win games. The coach should be able to win regardless of the circumstances because we're Dayton. If he can't, we'll get someone in here who can! Why? Because we say so! We're entitled to a winner every year, and if we don't get it, we'll yell and scream until we do!

Yawn.

[podcast411]

Originally Posted by priceg75 udscott and Smitty are the definition of entitled fans.

Wrong - UDscott and Smitty are clearly the product of the Opioid epidemic in Ohio.

[jack72]

Interview with Kostas after the TT game.

http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/spo...elated_columns

[udscott]

AG wasn't a sentimental hire and hired just because he went here. Guy has had success.

If you call a conference record getting worse each year at VCU, if you call making it to the final 4 with Juniors/Seniors that were not his recruits, and if you call below .500 in conference play in 6 years at Alabama success, then hell were in for a treat here

[ud2]

Originally Posted by udscott AG wasn't a sentimental hire and hired just because he went here. Guy has had success. If you call a conference record getting worse each year at VCU, if you call making it to the final 4 with Juniors/Seniors that were not his recruits, and if you call below .500 in conference play in 6 years at Alabama success, then hell were in for a treat here

Final 4? That was Shaka not AG.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by udscott AG wasn't a sentimental hire and hired just because he went here. Guy has had success. If you call a conference record getting worse each year at VCU, if you call making it to the final 4 with Juniors/Seniors that were not his recruits, and if you call below .500 in conference play in 6 years at Alabama success, then hell were in for a treat here

So by "conference record getting worse" you mean a 2 game difference from front to back and finishing 1st place in the conference all 3 years?

Since you research is so good you will know Shaka sent VCU to the FF not Grant.

I also am not basing his potential at UD on his lack of production at a SEC school that couldn't care less about basketball. I do question things, but also don't care what year 1 looks like.

Dayton administrators aren't making sentimental hires just to appease individuals. They are hiring the people that they think will carry on continued success and keep the program on a consistent track. They want people here that will build a program and not use UD as a stepping stone. You see the Overlords Down South...see what they have done. They have built a program that revolves around continuity between different head coaches. With your wealth of knowledge you must be among the decision makers at UD and understand their plan for continued success.

I don't really care what unrealistic expectations half of you have for this team or program. But in the end, UD is a very successful mid-major basketball program, with P5 facilites, P5 fan base, and P5 financial support. The difference is, half of the naysayers think UD is a UK, UNC, or Kansas. Hate to tell you, but E8 appearances probably won't be the norm...they will be a nice exception to continual NCAA appearances. Your life as a UD fan will be long and miserable until your expectations are in line with reality.

[podcast411]

Originally Posted by ud2 Final 4? That was Shaka not AG.

And Shaka did it WITH AG's recruits.

[steverino015]

Originally Posted by podcast411 And Shaka did it WITH AG's recruits.

LOL! Brilliant... this is the post of the day, right here~)

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by podcast411 And Shaka did it WITH AG's recruits.

Hey, guess what? That actually is the point. Nobody is questioning AG's recruiting. He's a great recruiter. He just doesn't coach them up. Some will tell you that BG was a better recruiter than AM but vice versa when it came to coaching. With the small sample size in, which works better for a program like UD? Coaching has over recruiting. Ideally we want both. That's how you compete for national championships. That's also why head coaches get paid more than assistant coaches (who do most of the grunt work in recruiting).

[ud2]

Originally Posted by shocka43 I also am not basing his potential at UD on his lack of production at a SEC school that couldn't care less about basketball.

I disagree about Alabama...they have a long history of success, they have been much better than us since the early 80's.

The AM era at UD though, saw us being better than them.


NCAA Tournament Elite Eight
2004

NCAA Tournament Sweet Sixteen
1976, 1982, 1985, 1986, 1987*, 1990, 1991, 2004

NCAA Tournament Round of 32
1975, 1976, 1982, 1985, 1986, 1987*, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1994, 1995, 2002, 2004, 2006

NCAA Tournament appearances
1975, 1976, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987*, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1994, 1995, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2012

[MNFats]

Originally Posted by udscott AG wasn't a sentimental hire and hired just because he went here. Guy has had success. If you call a conference record getting worse each year at VCU, if you call making it to the final 4 with Juniors/Seniors that were not his recruits, and if you call below .500 in conference play in 6 years at Alabama success, then hell were in for a treat here

Google is your friend. This is twice now you have given incorrect info on his time at Alabama. He was 54-49 in conference play. That would be above .500.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by ud2 I disagree about Alabama...they have a long history of success, they have been much better than us since the early 80's. The AM era at UD though, saw us being better than them. NCAA Tournament Elite Eight 2004 NCAA Tournament Sweet Sixteen 1976, 1982, 1985, 1986, 1987*, 1990, 1991, 2004 NCAA Tournament Round of 32 1975, 1976, 1982, 1985, 1986, 1987*, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1994, 1995, 2002, 2004, 2006 NCAA Tournament appearances 1975, 1976, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987*, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1994, 1995, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2012

Taking a back seat to football was the point.

Also the point about him out of there in the timeframe he was....SEC coaches...no matter the level in hoops have a short lifespan unless they produce.

[udscott]

Originally Posted by shocka43 So by "conference record getting worse" you mean a 2 game difference from front to back and finishing 1st place in the conference all 3 years? Since you research is so good you will know Shaka sent VCU to the FF not Grant. I also am not basing his potential at UD on his lack of production at a SEC school that couldn't care less about basketball. I do question things, but also don't care what year 1 looks like. Dayton administrators aren't making sentimental hires just to appease individuals. They are hiring the people that they think will carry on continued success and keep the program on a consistent track. They want people here that will build a program and not use UD as a stepping stone. You see the Overlords Down South...see what they have done. They have built a program that revolves around continuity between different head coaches. With your wealth of knowledge you must be among the decision makers at UD and understand their plan for continued success. I don't really care what unrealistic expectations half of you have for this team or program. But in the end, UD is a very successful mid-major basketball program, with P5 facilites, P5 fan base, and P5 financial support. The difference is, half of the naysayers think UD is a UK, UNC, or Kansas. Hate to tell you, but E8 appearances probably won't be the norm...they will be a nice exception to continual NCAA appearances. Your life as a UD fan will be long and miserable until your expectations are in line with reality.

I agree with you, when I speak of UD, I say were a top 50 program, my expectations are to compete for an ncaa bid every year

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by udscott I agree with you, when I speak of UD, I say were a top 50 program, my expectations are to compete for an ncaa bid every year

That isn't unreasonable. But those expectations should be tempered with the current situation. I would say that competing every year and getting a bid 4 out of 5 years is respectable on the average. When AG gets through this first season I don't see why that same average isn't attainable.

[MNFats]

Originally Posted by udscott I agree with you, when I speak of UD, I say were a top 50 program, my expectations are to compete for an ncaa bid every year

I'm not sure "top 50" and "competing for NCAA bid every year" are the same thing.

There are not 50 programs that never have a bad year (or years). I agree we are top 50. But we are allowed to have our ups and downs. We have had a lot more ups, but right now we are down. As a top 50 program I expect us to bounce back in the coming years.

And remember - all it takes to make the tournament is to put together a few good games in March. The growing pains now will help us in March.

[SeasonTicketFan]

Originally Posted by udscott I agree with you, when I speak of UD, I say were a top 50 program, my expectations are to compete for an ncaa bid every year

I think it is every UD fan's desire to see the team compete for NCAA every year and more.

If Archie was still at the helm, this team would still face an uphill battle to get into the NCAA. The team might be 6-3 at best. As bad as the players are defensively, Archie could be at 4-5 as well. Remember the defense played by Archie's first two teams was really, really bad. Would we throw Archie under the bus if he missed the NCAA and NIT this year?

[flybye]

lol, and The Final 8 team started 1 and 4 in conference that year. Good to remember that the team had only 4 practices before the season with a full squad. Kostas was out and Josh missed two weeks with that wrist. also keep in mind our RPI is in top 5, no real cupcakes to feast on ie Georgetown etc.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by priceg75 udscott and Smitty are the definition of entitled fans. We deserve to win because... we're Dayton dangit! The uniform itself should win games. The coach should be able to win regardless of the circumstances because we're Dayton. If he can't, we'll get someone in here who can! Why? Because we say so! We're entitled to a winner every year, and if we don't get it, we'll yell and scream until we do! Yawn.

Says the person who EXPECTED AM would get this team to the NCAA tourney this season. Oh, but wait, they've lost to Hofstra, Penn(at f-----g home mind you), Miss St and Auburn and within a hair of losing to Ball St. So you're bold enough to claim AM should take this team to the tournament and now call out others who feel this team should be performing better than they are.

Oh, AND QUIT STALKING ME YOU PERVERT.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 This team has talent and it's up to the coach to draw it out and turn it into wins.

Tell me where this talent is. Cunningham is a beast and DD is playing well. Who else? Kostas and Svoboda are raw and aren't nearly as good as most people thought they would be (yet). X has been hurt. Crosby is Crosby. Landers is just ok. Crutcher is a freshman. J Davis is a freshman. Pierce isn't ready. So it will take time for at least half of the roster to develop.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by longtimefan Tell me where this talent is. Cunningham is a beast and DD is playing well. Who else? Kostas and Svoboda are raw and aren't nearly as good as most people thought they would be (yet). X has been hurt. Crosby is Crosby. Landers is just ok. Crutcher is a freshman. J Davis is a freshman. Pierce isn't ready. So it will take time for at least half of the roster to develop.

excuses, excuses, excuses. lame excuses. How come I didn't hear all these excuses prior to the November? Just about everyone here had us at least competing for an NIT spot and now it's soandso is a freshman and soandso isn't as good as we thought. And Crosby is Crosby (what the heck does that mean?) Just stop. Posters had us struggling more in the A10 but how many of you had us losing to Hofstra, ODU and Penn?

[UDGutter2]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 My brother and I both have a the theory that a team can sense the vibe of a coach. There was plenty of conjecture about Crean being fired at IU at the end of the regular season and it makes me wonder if AM didn’t subliminally put out vibes that the UD Seniors/team did pick up on- hence the lackluster finish. I’m not sure I’d say underachieving but ironic that the 3 game skid appeared when you would have least expected it. I think this year could be a bumpy ride but i can historically remember slow starts with the Flyers that ended strong. If you as a UD fan aren’t excited by the play of this freshmen class, you aren’t paying attention; i believe its going to be special when they are juniors and seniors. I also believe we haven’t seen a healthy XW at all this year and when we do (hopefully soon) we will see a different mindset of toughness out there in terms of leadership. Josh and DD can’t do it all. Posted via Mobile Device

I assume the players felt it, my wife and I felt it watching at home. Just seemed like Ryan Miller quit before the season was over. Even senior night seemed emotionless on his part.

[FlyerBob]

Originally Posted by UDGutter2 I assume the players felt it, my wife and I felt it watching at home. Just seemed like Ryan Miller quit before the season was over. Even senior night seemed emotionless on his part.

It was the most confounding thing I agree- I still can't explain the complete lack of chemistry, a senior laden team not peaking at season's end, and one and done. Granted WSU was a tough draw but come on...

[shwag33]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 excuses, excuses, excuses. lame excuses. How come I didn't hear all these excuses prior to the November? Just about everyone here had us at least competing for an NIT spot and now it's soandso is a freshman and soandso isn't as good as we thought. And Crosby is Crosby (what the heck does that mean?) Just stop. Posters had us struggling more in the A10 but how many of you had us losing to Hofstra, ODU and Penn?

Most people thought they were going to be pretty terrible this year. People were hoping for the best, if they were lucky a NIT bid. Some were more opitmistic than others, but how could anyone look at this lineup and say that it was going to be good? We knew we had no point guards... without a good one its hard to win.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by FlyerBob It was the most confounding thing I agree- I still can't explain the complete lack of chemistry, a senior laden team not peaking at season's end, and one and done. Granted WSU was a tough draw but come on...

The 7 vs. 10 games are always tough, plus WSU was underseeded.

WSU only lost by 3 to UK in the next game.

Stuff happens. Sometimes you get some luck in the NCAAT(for example: good teams getting upset and you draw a lower quality Cinderella team in the next round as a result), sometimes you don't.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by ud2 The 7 vs. 10 games are always tough, plus WSU was underseeded. WSU only lost by 3 to UK in the next game. Stuff happens. Sometimes you get some luck in the NCAAT(for example: good teams getting upset and you draw a lower quality Cinderella team in the next round as a result), sometimes you don't.

How about the year before when almost everyone felt Syracuse didn't belong and then they rolled us in embarassing fashion. Did that just happen too?

This sounds like excuses to me.
Posted via Mobile Device

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer How about the year before when almost everyone felt Syracuse didn't belong and then they rolled us in embarassing fashion. Did that just happen too? This sounds like excuses to me. Posted via Mobile Device

Touché.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 And Crosby is Crosby (what the heck does that mean?)

You should know what that means. You are the one who said we have a point guard problem and "the lack of PG's creating plays is going to make this a long, ugly season."

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by longtimefan You should know what that means. You are the one who said we have a point guard problem and "the lack of PG's creating plays is going to make this a long, ugly season."

Yep, I said that after the fact. And if you read on, I didn't know where to point the finger. I see talent at the position, so I assume that the coach isn't doing his job by getting them to play like point guards. Yet here comes the excuses I predicted when this beloved alumni was hired.

The fact I was stating is nobody had us this bad prior to the season and even after we almost got embarrassed in the opener, no, not even you, yet now it's all so clear with the stupid excuses. Yes we all expected this team to take a step back, but no, we didn't expect to be behind Hofstra, ODU, Penn and Miss. St. Why? Because we had a starting lineup of no freshmen when the season started and we've lost one starter for a few games afterward. We also had a redshirt freshman that was not expected to play like a freshman and to be honest he hasn't. He's made some mistakes but in no way can you tell me that Kostas is your typical freshman. Also we had Svoboda who has lots of experience. When they all disappoint it's either overrating the recruiting or the coaching. I say it's the coaching, and I'll wager everything I own that when it's all said and done, AG comes nowhere close to putting up the success of AM and that would be a big step backwards and the word I'm looking for is "failure".

[Tony T 71]

Originally Posted by shocka43 Dose of reality.... This is a "cupboard" bare year and it isn't anyone's fault...(death, injuries, de-commits) AG is not on a hot seat and shouldn't be on a hot seat... Yes, there are valid concerns/conversations to be had regarding X's and O's. (Is it coaching or personnel...may be both...probably is both).. Freshman are promising...very promising... If we are having the same conversations 2 years from this date, then the above "sky is falling" conversations are real and there should be serious discussions... Those with concerns, yes...you have been cheated on before (BG years) where the bill of sale was "wait till next year". I see where people don't want that again and think they see some of the same traits on the court right now. Different scenario right now. BG had success with OP's players in year one. AM left and so did players...as well 3 others lost for this season. AG wasn't a sentimental hire and hired just because he went here. Guy has had success. Give it time. If you think losing 80% of returning minutes helps matters, you are delusional. If in 2 years there isn't progress...then fire away. Having those conversations right now is absurd.

Well said Shocka, you hit the nail on the head!!!

[SeasonTicketFan]

How do we know the issue is coaching? How can you turn a number of inexperienced freshman along with a weak depleted, injured upper class into studs overnight?

Anthony did not have Kostas at any practice until one week before the season. Miller, Mikesell out. Williams hurt for 4 games. Crosby relegated to the bench.

Anthony may or may not have issues as a coach, but the roster is a chalkenge and a half. As one scout reported, UD does not the talent they’ve had in the past. Take that from impartial observers.

If that is a lot of excuses, then I chalkenge to perform the opposite. Solve all of the NCAAs problems by Christmas and don’t make excuses.... Stop the Memphis Grizzlies losing streak and put them on top of the NBA standings mid January. Don’t make excuses.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 excuses, excuses, excuses. lame excuses. How come I didn't hear all these excuses prior to the November? Just about everyone here had us at least competing for an NIT spot and now it's soandso is a freshman and soandso isn't as good as we thought. And Crosby is Crosby (what the heck does that mean?) Just stop. Posters had us struggling more in the A10 but how many of you had us losing to Hofstra, ODU and Penn?

Somebody should have posted a poll before the season began, in order to gauge preseason prognostications vs. the current reality.

It is not too late, somebody could post a poll now, regarding prognostications for the rest of this year.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by shocka43 Also the point about him out of there in the timeframe he was....SEC coaches...no matter the level in hoops have a short lifespan unless they produce.

Yes, I agree, but isn't that true of any college basketball job that has significant expectations as to performance and results? The SEC is no different. A lot of these jobs are pressure-packed.

[jack72]

From ESPN:
"I realize this "Duke is really bad at defense" thing can seem like a rite of winter, but there's simply no other way of putting it:
Duke is really bad at defense."

Must be bad coaching! Coach K has the best talent, so it must be him. It is always the coach. Who predicted a loss to lowly Boston College? No one. The coach stinks. Replace him.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by ud2 Somebody should have posted a poll before the season began, in order to gauge preseason prognostications vs. the current reality.

I had them at 17....

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by jack72 From ESPN: "I realize this "Duke is really bad at defense" thing can seem like a rite of winter, but there's simply no other way of putting it: Duke is really bad at defense." Must be bad coaching! Coach K has the best talent, so it must be him. It is always the coach. Who predicted a loss to lowly Boston College? No one. The coach stinks. Replace him.

Yep, that convinced me. Because if you are going to compare two coaches Coach K and AG have similar resumes.

[priceg75]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Says the person who EXPECTED AM would get this team to the NCAA tourney this season. Oh, but wait, they've lost to Hofstra, Penn(at f-----g home mind you), Miss St and Auburn and within a hair of losing to Ball St. So you're bold enough to claim AM should take this team to the tournament and now call out others who feel this team should be performing better than they are. Oh, AND QUIT STALKING ME YOU PERVERT.

You have mentioned this twice now in regards to my expectation for the season. You say it like I should be embarrassed or shamed that I have changed my way of thinking coming into this season, not that we're here.

What it actually is, is a sign of someone with an open mind. Circumstances have changed. As such, my expectations were altered.

As far as "stalking" you, I don't know how many active threads you think there are on here, but it's only a couple from day to day. And your "let's burn the whole world down" act because we lost to Penn (at f-----g home, mind you) act is hard to miss.

At least you are finally admitting that you already consider AG a failure so we can dismiss your point of view like the ridiculous early, impatient, sports talk "hot taek" that it is.

[San Diego Flyer]

Originally Posted by shocka43 I had them at 17....

Same here. But realistically, I could attack that number as being optimistic, just as easily as I could present arguments that support more than 17.

It's just a crap shoot this season with all the variables. But interesting as well.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by priceg75 You have mentioned this twice now in regards to my expectation for the season. You say it like I should be embarrassed or shamed that I have changed my way of thinking coming into this season, not that we're here. What it actually is, is a sign of someone with an open mind. Circumstances have changed. As such, my expectations were altered. As far as "stalking" you, I don't know how many active threads you think there are on here, but it's only a couple from day to day. And your "let's burn the whole world down" act because we lost to Penn (at f-----g home, mind you) act is hard to miss. At least you are finally admitting that you already consider AG a failure so we can dismiss your point of view like the ridiculous early, impatient, sports talk "hot taek" that it is.

No, changing your mind is fine, attacking others for holding on to the similar views you used to have is ridiculous part.

[UD62]

Interesting thread. It appears that the vast majority of posters realize the situation the Flyers are in. There are only two posters that are some what off the wall. Speaks well of the fan base. when I reflect on the firestorm that existed whem AM started off so poorly in conference, we seem to have a much firmer gasp of the situation and the causes.

[priceg75]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 No, changing your mind is fine, attacking others for holding on to the similar views you used to have is ridiculous part.

I'm not attacking you for wanting this to be a tournament team (we all want things, but let's be realistic), I'm attacking you because you are already declaring Anthony Grant a failure! We're not even 1/3 of the way through the season!

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by priceg75 I'm not attacking you for wanting this to be a tournament team (we all want things, but let's be realistic), I'm attacking you because you are already declaring Anthony Grant a failure! We're not even 1/3 of the way through the season!

Yep, because so far he has been a failure this season. HOFSTRA, ODU, Miss St. PENN at home and let's not forget a real buttkicking on our home turf by Auburn. Not to mention his seasons' past. As others have mentioned, the same issues seem to plague him where ever he goes, especially on offense.

And you know what? If Grant had gotten off to a great start, you and all the other pollyannas would be talking about what a great job he's done when "We're not even 1/3 of the way through the season!". So I guess praising is purely logical after 1/3 or less of season but criticizing is not huh?

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by UD62 Interesting thread. It appears that the vast majority of posters realize the situation the Flyers are in. There are only two posters that are some what off the wall. Speaks well of the fan base. when I reflect on the firestorm that existed whem AM started off so poorly in conference, we seem to have a much firmer gasp of the situation and the causes.

Funny thing, I stuck by AM through that terrible conference start and was proven to be right when all was said and done. See, I didn't need to learn from that because I was right all along. And I'm willing to wager it all to say I'm going to be right again. This program is going to go backwards from the AM years and I'm not referring to some temporary reset with AG, his record speaks for itself. And that's the **** shame of it all. Just because people want an alumni as coach thinking that it's better than a great coach using us as a stepping stone. Well, guess what, because the program is being set back again, it means more stepping stone years from now when we have a good coach again. The real way to stop being used as a stepping stone is to become a destination program for great coaches not a final program for a mediocre one.

[UD62]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Funny thing, I stuck by AM through that terrible conference start and was proven to be right when all was said and done. See, I didn't need to learn from that because I was right all along. And I'm willing to wager it all to say I'm going to be right again. This program is going to go backwards from the AM years and I'm not referring to some temporary reset with AG, his record speaks for itself. And that's the **** shame of it all. Just because people want an alumni as coach thinking that it's better than a great coach using us as a stepping stone. Well, guess what, because the program is being set back again, it means more stepping stone years from now when we have a good coach again. The real way to stop being used as a stepping stone is to become a destination program for great coaches not a final program for a mediocre one.

It must be wonderful to be you

[CE80]

How about we bookmark this thread for a date 3 years in the future and revisit it then?

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by UD62 It must be wonderful to be you

Better than being someone like you who states as fact that you and everybody but two of us on this board are right. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.

[OSU Flyer]

Smitty you can't criticize Anthony Grant. He's a high character man and an alumn who played for a UD great

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Yep, that convinced me. Because if you are going to compare two coaches Coach K and AG have similar resumes.

Forest for the trees. Man did your ego ever blind you to the real analogy being made. HINT - it had nothing to do with coaches
Posted via Mobile Device

[Flyer 86]

Originally Posted by jack72 Interview with Kostas after the TT game. http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/spo...elated_columns

I"m seeing growth by this young man. Taking a charge, looking at film.

He'll get it. I was always a 6 1" guard. Decent rebounder, good passer and shooter. What i can never fathom nor was good at is shot blocking.

How do these bigs and the ones that are successful go u p and time blocks. With his wingspan he's a natural. And like Big Steve, they both have the knack.

Let's hope he prospers and stays out of foul trouble.

[Flyer 86]

Originally Posted by priceg75 I'm not attacking you for wanting this to be a tournament team (we all want things, but let's be realistic), I'm attacking you because you are already declaring Anthony Grant a failure! We're not even 1/3 of the way through the season!

Just Because Grant isn't as fiery, or do things the way Miller did. Some folks don't get the different styles and energy thing.

[Piqua Flyer '66]

Man, this is nuts. Each of you have a job (if retired this does not apply to you��). You think you know what you are doing and rightfully so. Some clown comes into your office/place of work and tells you, "I can see you don't know what you are doing" without ever having done your job. So, unless you've coached at the D1 college just relax and root hard because you have no grounds for attacking AG.....especially on this anonymous plateform......IMHO
GO FLYERS!

[priceg75]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer Smitty you can't criticize Anthony Grant. He's a high character man and an alumn who played for a UD great

Nobody said he was above criticism. What we did say is that it is too early to declare him a failure.

[priceg75]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 And you know what? If Grant had gotten off to a great start, you and all the other pollyannas would be talking about what a great job he's done when "We're not even 1/3 of the way through the season!". So I guess praising is purely logical after 1/3 or less of season but criticizing is not huh?

Nobody said he was above criticism. What we did say is that it is too early to declare him a failure.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer Same here. But realistically, I could attack that number as being optimistic, just as easily as I could present arguments that support more than 17. It's just a crap shoot this season with all the variables. But interesting as well.

And I altered that to myself from 15-17 after the last couple outings. I think we will get to 15...but 17 is going to be hard to come by.

[oldfan]

[QUOTE=Smitty10;524918]Yep, I said that after the fact. And if you read on, I didn't know where to point the finger. I see talent at the position, so I assume that the coach isn't doing his job by getting them to play like point guards. Yet here comes the excuses I predicted when this beloved alumni was hired.

Is it not knowing where to point the finger or is it AG on whom all your fingers are pointed? Reading all your posts it seems you are more than certain as to where to point the finger.