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  #1  
Old 02-16-2019, 06:26 PM
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No Quit, No Surrender

Down 22 in the 22nd half. Had a chance to win. I for one am a very proud Flyer tonight for the way these SEVEN didn't quit! And, yes, can't wait until next year when we are reloaded. GO FLYERS!!
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  #2  
Old 02-16-2019, 06:46 PM
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Excellent post, for this team to comeback a lose by a point was outstanding. Especially without Landers on the boards. VCU is experienced with a deep bench and we are young with no bench. The loss of Matos has cost us a few wins for sure. And blaming AG is absolutely dumb. We knew this was a 3 year building and he is doing exactly that by cleaning things up in year one and progressing in year 2. Next year we are set up for a big year. Even with my recent Heart Transplant I can see that.

I guess haters are gonna hate
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  #3  
Old 02-16-2019, 06:53 PM
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Really thought that last shot going in. We'll see in again in Brooklyn!!
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Old 02-16-2019, 06:54 PM
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The lack of energy and effort that put us in the 22 point hole is what is concerning. Not a matter of not quitting, but finally starting to wake up and play. Need to put 40 minutes together.
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Old 02-16-2019, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Donniex3Era View Post
Down 22 in the 22nd half.
Lack of depth is a killer when you have to play 22 halves.
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Old 02-16-2019, 07:16 PM
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my bad, 2nd half!
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  #7  
Old 02-16-2019, 08:00 PM
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Fans waved the white flag (pom pom).
White Outs are dumb.
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Old 02-16-2019, 08:14 PM
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I love this team and this coach. I am excited that Grant is here because he can coach, develop, and recruit and best of all he is not going to leave in 5 years after he has re-established us a team to be reckoned with.

Haven’t had this great of a time at a game we lost likely ever. Proud of what these young men are doing and how they are representing !! This team is farther along than I thought they would be this year and that was expecting JM to be healthy and FP, JD and DC to have had a bit of bigger impact than they have.
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  #9  
Old 02-16-2019, 08:18 PM
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crutcher ran out of gas and the flyers with him
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  #10  
Old 02-16-2019, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
The lack of energy and effort that put us in the 22 point hole is what is concerning. Not a matter of not quitting, but finally starting to wake up and play. Need to put 40 minutes together.
Wish we would have put together 40 minutes today but we have other times this season...most recently last weekend at URI.
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Old 02-16-2019, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer View Post
I love this team and this coach. I am excited that Grant is here because he can coach, develop, and recruit and best of all he is not going to leave in 5 years after he has re-established us a team to be reckoned with.

Haven’t had this great of a time at a game we lost likely ever. Proud of what these young men are doing and how they are representing !! This team is farther along than I thought they would be this year and that was expecting JM to be healthy and FP, JD and DC to have had a bit of bigger impact than they have.
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Grant should have called a TO before the run to start the second half was 10-0.
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by MrFlyerFanatic View Post
Fans waved the white flag (pom pom).
White Outs are dumb.
I'm glad its not just me- when I see crowds come to a game color coordinated and with silly pompoms it makes me think gimmicky and amateur. I think UD fans are exceptional- let's show up as we normally do at these big games knowing we're the best fan base in the country and don't feel any need to try to prove it....
and get off my lawn!
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  #13  
Old 02-16-2019, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jpk4ud View Post
Grant should have called a TO before the run to start the second half was 10-0.
Disagree 100%. He had to try and let the ship right itself and save the TO for later in the game when it was clearly needed. He waited as long as possible before calling it but had no chance.

Coaching 101 text book might say to call it but reality of this team’s short bench doesn’t allow the book to be followed much of the time.
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:11 PM
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Just finish in the top 4. Just finish in the top 4. Just finish in the top 4. And get healthy.

Our mission the rest of the way is clear.
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer View Post
Disagree 100%. He had to try and let the ship right itself and save the TO for later in the game when it was clearly needed. He waited as long as possible before calling it but had no chance.

Coaching 101 text book might say to call it but reality of this team’s short bench doesn’t allow the book to be followed much of the time.
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Yea saving that time out helped.....you can't watch 12 turn in to 22 in the first 2 minutes of the second half. You might try and let the ship right itself or fix the hole where the water is rushing in first.

You have to give the team credit for not folding the tents and going home.
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Old 02-17-2019, 12:53 AM
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My long-winded hot-take:

This was and is a team with holes, deficiencies, and weaknesses and opposing teams scout us to take advantage of those pressure points. VCU did a great job of that in the first half with rebounding, ball movement, and defensive ball pressure. Grant owned the start of the 2nd half on the terrible decision to play zone.

Down 22 with about 17min left and outscored 10-0 on the restart, we could have waved the white flag. But that's not what this team's DNA has been all season other than the Saint Louis debacle. And its not really been Grant's DNA either. In pretty much every other game this year the Flyers have fought to the bell no matter how far down we may have been. Execution may have been lacking in some of those crunch-time performances, but its been a very rare sight to see fans criticize the toughness and character of this team (SLU game aside).

As bad as the first 23 minutes were and as bitter as this loss is to swallow however, this game has convinced me -- barring unforeseen potholes -- that we're on the right track and on the verge of building something pretty impressive.

VCU played 11 guys today. We played 6.5. And when Crutcher cramped up late, we were basically down to 5.5. There's not a team in America that can win their league with 5-6 players in a 40 minute gas-guzzling slobberknocker like this. The body can only take so much abuse until it runs out of petrol. Thats why God invented the bench.

It probably never looked so bleak when it was a 22pt deficit with 17min to go, but the fellas never felt like they were out of it. Mikesell hit a trey from the corner and we played each possession one at a time. Got some steals, cpl rebounds, made some baskets, and we were suddenly back in it. We also DID make some big plays late. Alley oop to Obi was big-time late in the game. Jordan and Jalens treys were huge. Obi had the and-1 opportunity to give us the lead. We ended up falling a play short to perhaps the best guard in the A10.

But we took a step forward today. It might not feel like it, but I think Grant and his guys learned something about themselves. They have more or less played the best team in the league even-Steven -- twice -- with half a roster available. VCU is an NCAA at-large tourney team.

You throw Ibi, Jordy, Rodney, Chase, Moulaye, Matos, and Trey on the floor for us today and this game probably isn't close. Whatever hot hands are hot, Grant rolls with those and we hold serve at home. Heck we probably even win at VCU earlier in the year.

What has me in bull market territory more than anything is the DNA makeup of this team. One point on the scoreboard is not going to create or eliminate what makes you tick on the inside. Today was further evidence for me that we have the right guys in this program to be at the top of this league long-term. Maybe even dominate this league like it hasnt been dominated in a while.

Why do I say this? Even with about 6 available players, I never see any whining. I never see guys out there just "looking to get theirs". I dont see malcontents seemingly with no friends on the court other than themselves. I look at these guys from 30,000ft and see a team that genuinely likes one another, enjoys playing with one another, and is just as happy to set a teammate up for success as finding their own. Im not sure over the last 1.5-2.0 season we had good vibe chemistry. The team seemed split in ways good teams usually arent. There were storylines that just didnt need to be there.

I see unity in Grant's team. I see guys trying to do things the right way -- together. Doesnt always lead to a win, but the DNA is being baked into the cake no matter what the results are. I dont EVER say "Oh no, Dopey is being put in the game...lets count the seconds until he starts showing us his And-1 Mix Tape ridiculousness..."

On the one hand, very disappointed we couldnt close this one out. Would have been a comeback for the ages at UD Arena. But as difficult as it is to accept, Im equally encouraged by what Im seeing in the program. Not game-to-game, but month to month, season to off-season. We are developing good habits. And we're doing it with half the roster on our scout team. Sometimes its hard to make progress when so few guys can take the court for you and actually demonstrate it. But if we're this stubborn with half a team, I'm giddy about what we can do with 12 guys all good enough to see the floor.

VCU threw 11 guys at us today and still needed a shot at the end to win it. Our 5-6 battled toe to toe with their 11. As wounded animals go, there hasnt been a more wounded, neutered animal in the A10 this year as Dayton was today at the Arena. The hardships we've had to suffer through this season make everyone else's circumstances seem tame by comparison.

And we did much of our damage today with Josh struggling and not playing much in the second half anyway. Josh is a workhorse, but he can also disappear and we've been able to compete even when he does. Things are looking up. We're putting together the pieces to be extraordinarily dangerous over the next few years if Grant can keep stocking the drawer with experienced talent. Doesn't mean we will have the greatest Xs and Os coach that ever lived on our sidelines, or a bunch of Johnny Davis' out there that are almost without fault. But in totality, theres enough "there there" to put the fear of God into a lot of A10 foes.

In many ways, the performance we got today was emblematic of the team we knew we had. Short-staffed and flawed but never ones to play themselves off as victims. It was a 40 minute game and they played through their roughest patch believing they were still in it to win it. This has been their DNA all year. That mental strength is going to serve us well 1-2 years from now.

There is going to be a time where Dayton is no longer the team 10-15pts down at the half or second half and trying to claw themselves back in it. We'll be up 10-15 with regularity looking to twist the knife. We dont have the weapons just yet to make that happen, but they are lying in wait. Until then, Grant and his staff have to look for other victories. I think we're developing the character traits needed to go with the talent to take us where we want to go. Whether we get there or not is another discussion altogether.

Grant may have lost this battle, but the war looks winnable. The goal is to make war an unfair fight. It could eventually come to that if everything comes together. We're holding off charging armies with what amounts to spit-wads. With some artillery and a few more infantry divisions, maybe we eventually make the A10 our sandbox of shock and awe.
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Old 02-17-2019, 06:40 AM
forego1 forego1 is offline
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Wins Losses NET Rankings
North Florida #244 Virginia #3
Coppin State #344 Oklahoma #41
Purdue Fort Wayne #189 Mississippi St #27
Butler #54 Auburn #24
Detroit Mercy #211 Tulsa #73
Western Michigan #285 VCU #43
Presbyterian #207 George Mason #140
Georgia Southern #129 St. Louis #123
Richmond* #188 VCU #43
George Washington #259
Massachusetts #204
St. Bonaventure #146
Fordham #222
Saint Joseph’s #180
Duquesne #163
Rhode Island #134

Mike Milkovich, between 1956 and 1977, coached the Maple Hts. Mustangs to 16 undefeated seasons, 10 state championships, nine state runner-up finishes, and he guided a record 103 consecutive dual meet victories.

The guy did this with scrawny ethnic kids from a very small high school. Some years they forfeited the heavyweight class because they had no one nearly big enough, and the school's football team was a perennial joke.
(The school did not win another wrestling championship after he retired)

I've heard the refrain here that it's mostly about recruited talent. NO, it's all about the coaching, and motivation of kids to execute at a high level, ESPECIALLY when there is testy stress and adversity.

Mike Milkovich is an example of the top. Think on a scale of 1-10.
Still open to AG having moderate NCAAT success. Shall see.

My point in posting the results above, is to remind those who want to be aligned with reality, to take the red pill.


[A run to take the lead versus VCU and not finish in front of a home crowd, evokes more questions than answers].

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Old 02-17-2019, 06:57 AM
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We are being out-hustled.
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Old 02-17-2019, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by forego1 View Post
We are being out-hustled.
You’ve got to be a troll. I’ve played and coached this game and if you don’t think talent and depth is important then you know nothing about the game. Chris is right on about this team. Playing with a ton of heart even when extremely short handed. Yesterday if we had one more player (Trey) available we win the game just based on substitution patterns.
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Old 02-17-2019, 07:42 AM
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Couple of things to note, from my perspective. We got severely burned early. Turnovers. Poor, poor defense and lack of rebounding.

On the offensive end we looked out of sync, and I'll propose a good part of that resulted from 3 factors.

1) our offense is used to having Landers in, so guys couldn't find their places and flow on offense. And part of that was also Obi not 100% used to starting games . HE'S the main guy looking flummoxed the first ten to 15 minutes.

2) not prepared for their 2019 version of HAVOC.. VCU was very effective tipping balls, doubling guys, and forcing turnovers into fast breaks

3. ) LAnders most likely would have helped with 6 or 7 of their 13 offensive rebounds. So likely negating that aspect some

4. Last, with Obi handling ball at top of key often it looks like first 3 options are : obi drive or shoot, obi handoff and work it to Jordan or Jalen, or get ball to Jaken to create.

With Obi out top it appears getting ball to Josh down low becomes less of the priority or reality, unless we are in the 2 bigs down low offense we appeared to play earlier in the game.

Anyone else notice this or can comment? Seems Josh had VERY FEW scoring touches due to a Jalen or Obi based offense.

My suggestion in future. Set up inside play to Josh every 6 or 8 times down the floor to keep him in the offense. Otherwise we lose his important inside abilities!
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Old 02-17-2019, 07:45 AM
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Chris I like your take at the 30,000 ft level

However,

We are late in the season and what were moral victories early in the season (Virginia as an example), can't be taken with much satisfaction after yesterday.

Yes the guys played with guts and spirit in the last what 15-17 minutes, but they hitched that to a really really dismal effort in the first 20.

They didn't deserve to win as that pains me to say it, it really does.

After awhile the 'almost's' get old. Especially when we want to see them do well and have the resume to show for it.

Moral victories do not add up, there is no column labeled "Moral Victory" next to Wins - Loses.

There is no "Moral Moral Win", "Moral NCAA Bid", or a "Moral Championship".

The team and player tendencies were just as evident yesterday as they were early in the season as Chris points out.

I hope that they finish the season with some more of that intestinal fortitude over longer periods of time in a game rather than only sputs of, so that they can have evidence in the WIN column that their effort which they have put forth was more than a MORAL victory.

Go Flyers!
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Old 02-17-2019, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer View Post
Disagree 100%. He had to try and let the ship right itself and save the TO for later in the game when it was clearly needed. He waited as long as possible before calling it but had no chance.

Coaching 101 text book might say to call it but reality of this team’s short bench doesn’t allow the book to be followed much of the time.
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Agreed. You can’t call a TO every time a team makes 3 or 4 baskets in a row. You only get 3 to use, use them wisely. The VCU coach waited until we scored 10 straight to use his first TO in the second half. Again, he used it wisely.
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Old 02-17-2019, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyer 86 View Post
Couple of things to note, from my perspective. We got severely burned early. Turnovers. Poor, poor defense and lack of rebounding.

On the offensive end we looked out of sync, and I'll propose a good part of that resulted from 3 factors.

1) our offense is used to having Landers in, so guys couldn't find their places and flow on offense. And part of that was also Obi not 100% used to starting games . HE'S the main guy looking flummoxed the first ten to 15 minutes.

2) not prepared for their 2019 version of HAVOC.. VCU was very effective tipping balls, doubling guys, and forcing turnovers into fast breaks

3. ) LAnders most likely would have helped with 6 or 7 of their 13 offensive rebounds. So likely negating that aspect some

4. Last, with Obi handling ball at top of key often it looks like first 3 options are : obi drive or shoot, obi handoff and work it to Jordan or Jalen, or get ball to Jaken to create.

With Obi out top it appears getting ball to Josh down low becomes less of the priority or reality, unless we are in the 2 bigs down low offense we appeared to play earlier in the game.

Anyone else notice this or can comment? Seems Josh had VERY FEW scoring touches due to a Jalen or Obi based offense.

My suggestion in future. Set up inside play to Josh every 6 or 8 times down the floor to keep him in the offense. Otherwise we lose his important inside abilities!
You make good points. Right now it seems Obi is more of a first or second option than Josh. Josh seems to be struggling a bit with larger more athletic bigs. Let’s face it, he’s undersized for the 5 position. Doesn’t mean he can’t contribute in a significant way, but he’s no longer the first option.
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:19 AM
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Walked away from watching when it hit 17 down and the guys looked listless. Glad I checked back in later and watched through the end. Thought we would get the stop on VCU's last play but it didn't happen. Great play on their part. Next time down the court the Flyers did the right thing which was attack the rim and look for contact. Just didn't get enough contact and the ref swallowed the whistle (right call IMO). I did not like the Flyers out of bounds play. I would've liked to see something for Davis who just hit a huge three. Easy to second guess on the couch, I just didn't really see what the design was there, and the pass was poor. Great effort otherwise. Time to move on.
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:40 AM
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"We are being out-hustled."

Originally Posted by TA111 View Post
You’ve got to be a troll.
Sure, I am a troll. Okay? Forget the broader picture. Even forget which team worked harder overall, was more determined, and played disciplined.

Yesterday was 'your' big game & at 'your' home

Imagine one hundred of YOUR peers judging: Who appeared ready to play from the start, had more focused intensity?

ADD: I am not pointing to the players and their heart. I am pointing at the coach and his heart!!!

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Old 02-17-2019, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by forego1 View Post
"We are being out-hustled."



Sure, I am a troll. Okay? Forget the broader picture. Even forget which team worked harder overall, was more determined, and played disciplined.

Yesterday was 'your' big game & at 'your' home

Imagine one hundred of YOUR peers judging: Who appeared ready to play from the start, had more focused intensity?

ADD: I am not pointing to the players and their heart. I am pointing at the coach and his heart!!!
And you are pointing at a coach who just lost by 1 point, to a very good team. And he did it with essentially 6 players...and the most important of them was in and out of the game with cramps.

The wrestling coach analogy only holds water if Mike Whatshisname has to keep putting the same kid out there over and over every match of the meet, going up against fresh bodies, and still won.

Yesterday was an odd game. You can't be proud of the comeback without also being disappointed to fall behind so much. We had a plan to slow things down and play to our 6 man roster. VCU wanted no part of that. So in the 2nd half our boys buckled their seat belts and put the pedal to the metal and put their bodies on the line to the point that their bodies started to fail them. Any coach that can get his players to play with that much heart can be my coach any day. All we need to add to that is an infusion of talent. All indications are that the talent is already there and we will get to see it in 9 months.

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Old 02-17-2019, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Canonball View Post
Walked away from watching when it hit 17 down and the guys looked listless. Glad I checked back in later and watched through the end. Thought we would get the stop on VCU's last play but it didn't happen. Great play on their part. Next time down the court the Flyers did the right thing which was attack the rim and look for contact. Just didn't get enough contact and the ref swallowed the whistle (right call IMO). I did not like the Flyers out of bounds play. I would've liked to see something for Davis who just hit a huge three. Easy to second guess on the couch, I just didn't really see what the design was there, and the pass was poor. Great effort otherwise. Time to move on.
you have no time to do anything other than a lob tip with .4 seconds on the clock. There's no way to get the ball to Jordan Davis for any type of a catch-and-shoot.
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Old 02-17-2019, 09:21 AM
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It
Originally Posted by TA111 View Post
You’ve got to be a troll. I’ve played and coached this game and if you don’t think talent and depth is important then you know nothing about the game. Chris is right on about this team. Playing with a ton of heart even when extremely short handed. Yesterday if we had one more player (Trey) available we win the game just based on substitution patterns.

No question. I really don't care if Trey even had one stat number in the box score. Just his ability to play physical, put a body on offensive players under the boards and to keep balls alive and set sreens would have been huge in this game.

Landers is the best athlete on the ud basketball team. When you combine his ability to run, physicality, and jump it's crazy. This was his type of game with the natural setting and the crowd and everything.

We really have no idea if Dayton wins this game with Trey playing because the whole dynamics of this game would have probably played out different from the very first minute on but there's no question the added depth and his ability to put up junk stats would have given this team a huge lift and kept them much fresher throughout the game.

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Old 02-17-2019, 09:47 AM
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I totally buy into the prospect that AG will put the most talented teams on the floor in the A-10.

I should be happy with that. The administration will be for sure. Dayton is going to win a LOT of games these next years. I am telling you that.

I am looking for the signals AG can win in the fire the sort of games that reap NCAA bids, leave alone win there.

Fishing is not my sport, I'll stop trolling.
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Old 02-17-2019, 10:10 AM
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VCU had two advantages going into the game. With 11 players, they had lots of fouls to give, so they could be more much aggressive and foul more.

At the end of the game, they were tired, but much fresher. UD players were exhausted and cramping. VCU's last four baskets were dribble drives to the rim. They could not hit an outside shot after their early second half barrage. They could beat the defenders to the basket.
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Old 02-17-2019, 10:11 AM
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It was actually 0.7 seconds (which i think should have been 0.9) and by rule you can get a shot off in that time (although i think a tip or lob of some sort is a safer bet).

Maybe I watch different games but I don't get the people who want us to get it to Josh in the post. He does not score well with a traditional post up. I wish there was a way to see his stats in traditional post up situations because it would not be good.
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Old 02-17-2019, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by forego1 View Post
Wins Losses NET Rankings
North Florida #244 Virginia #3
Coppin State #344 Oklahoma #41
Purdue Fort Wayne #189 Mississippi St #27
Butler #54 Auburn #24
Detroit Mercy #211 Tulsa #73
Western Michigan #285 VCU #43
Presbyterian #207 George Mason #140
Georgia Southern #129 St. Louis #123
Richmond* #188 VCU #43
George Washington #259
Massachusetts #204
St. Bonaventure #146
Fordham #222
Saint Joseph’s #180
Duquesne #163
Rhode Island #134

Mike Milkovich, between 1956 and 1977, coached the Maple Hts. Mustangs to 16 undefeated seasons, 10 state championships, nine state runner-up finishes, and he guided a record 103 consecutive dual meet victories.

The guy did this with scrawny ethnic kids from a very small high school. Some years they forfeited the heavyweight class because they had no one nearly big enough, and the school's football team was a perennial joke.
(The school did not win another wrestling championship after he retired)

I've heard the refrain here that it's mostly about recruited talent. NO, it's all about the coaching, and motivation of kids to execute at a high level, ESPECIALLY when there is testy stress and adversity.

Mike Milkovich is an example of the top. Think on a scale of 1-10.
Still open to AG having moderate NCAAT success. Shall see.

My point in posting the results above, is to remind those who want to be aligned with reality, to take the red pill.


[A run to take the lead versus VCU and not finish in front of a home crowd, evokes more questions than answers].
And Dayton as of latest NET stands at 82 so your point is what exactly? If Dayton can somehow still manage to finish 4th in this league- AND can get Trey back/stay healthy- this team can win the A10 tournament. I swear, sometimes i feel like some of our “fans” take delight in failure. I take the UD PILL and just wait and see. Anybody can beat anybody- let’s wait to see how it finishes
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Old 02-17-2019, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
And Dayton as of latest NET stands at 82 so your point is what exactly?
I stated my point, old man. "Take the red pill" (oh, oh on second thought....)


What is your point that Dayton's NET stands at 82?

That the guys will have hotdogs and watch games in March?
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Old 02-17-2019, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
VCU had two advantages going into the game. With 11 players, they had lots of fouls to give, so they could be more much aggressive and foul more.
.
It seemed to me watching yesterday that our guys didn't challenge some of the drives or post ups maybe aggressively as they normally do and I'd say that's almost certainly because they knew they couldn't get into foul trouble.
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Old 02-17-2019, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jpk4ud View Post
Yea saving that time out helped.....you can't watch 12 turn in to 22 in the first 2 minutes of the second half. You might try and let the ship right itself or fix the hole where the water is rushing in first.

You have to give the team credit for not folding the tents and going home.
Your entire argument is too linear. It assumes that if the TO was called then the 10-0 run doesn’t still occur. There is no evidence to support that would be the case. What’s he gonna say 1 minute in that he hadn’t just been drilling into their heads during halftime?
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Old 02-17-2019, 01:04 PM
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I hate to be a buzzkill with the general optimistic tone of this thread. Most of it is warranted. Maybe its because I'm getting to be a grumpy old man but Im sick of all the close losses in big games this team and its fans have endured this year. I will continue to watch, cheer and hope but i gotta admit I'm optimistic about the rest of the season.
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Old 02-17-2019, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by TA111 View Post
Agreed. You can’t call a TO every time a team makes 3 or 4 baskets in a row. You only get 3 to use, use them wisely. The VCU coach waited until we scored 10 straight to use his first TO in the second half. Again, he used it wisely.
When was the last time that we needed a timeout late in the game but didn't have one? I can think of more times where we saved the timeout for later by not stopping a run, but ultimately ending the game with that timeout in our back pocket.

It reminds me of the coach that automatically sits the star player for the final ten minutes of the first half after picking up his second foul while ultimately ending the game with just those two fouls. Too much coaching in position of fear of not having a star player or timeout in the final minutes while undervaluing possessions the first 90% of the game.
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Old 02-17-2019, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by forego1 View Post
I stated my point, old man. "Take the red pill" (oh, oh on second thought....)


What is your point that Dayton's NET stands at 82?

That the guys will have hotdogs and watch games in March?
I love all these idiotic references to the “Red pill” from the Matrix like it applies to this team in the context that all the real fans are somehow in denial with how good this team is or where they really stand nationally with respect to their peers both in and out of A10 conference. This team was predicted pre-season to be no better than middle of the pack in the A10. The seasons not over yet. Considering last year was a clean the house, set the motion for years to come...most on here believed that being in-conversation for stealing a bid or earning one via the conference tourney would be a very pleasant surprise- and thats right where they are currently. I never expected a sweet 16 kind of season. Just making the field would widely surpass any expectation i had pre-season. Even an NIT bid would be considered successful. Where do get YOUR un-realistic expections from? And btw- sitting at NET #82 puts this team just inside the top 25% of all diivision 1 schools. Yeah, a total failure.... apparently you’re so young to not have experienced REAL failure - like a JOB team from the early 90’s that went 4-26 - THAT is how i define failure.
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Old 02-17-2019, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
you have no time to do anything other than a lob tip with .4 seconds on the clock. There's no way to get the ball to Jordan Davis for any type of a catch-and-shoot.
I must be confused because I thought they put it at 0.9 seconds. Tip is probably a better play, but as the Flyers ran it, everything seemed to break down. To me it looked like Mikesell just kind of gambled on it a bit. Haven't seen a replay, only live action.
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Old 02-17-2019, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
you have no time to do anything other than a lob tip with .4 seconds on the clock. There's no way to get the ball to Jordan Davis for any type of a catch-and-shoot.
By rule, 0.3 seconds or less has to be a tip. There was 0.7 seconds left, so a catch and shoot was on the table.
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Old 02-17-2019, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
When was the last time that we needed a timeout late in the game but didn't have one? I can think of more times where we saved the timeout for later by not stopping a run, but ultimately ending the game with that timeout in our back pocket.

It reminds me of the coach that automatically sits the star player for the final ten minutes of the first half after picking up his second foul while ultimately ending the game with just those two fouls. Too much coaching in position of fear of not having a star player or timeout in the final minutes while undervaluing possessions the first 90% of the game.
Interesting you use the analogy of the player picking up the second foul, considering AG did the EXACT OPPOSITE yesterday when Obi picked up his second foul.
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Old 02-17-2019, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Canonball View Post
I must be confused because I thought they put it at 0.9 seconds. Tip is probably a better play, but as the Flyers ran it, everything seemed to break down. To me it looked like Mikesell just kind of gambled on it a bit. Haven't seen a replay, only live action.
The ball was at at odd angle for a tip in. Not sure Mikesell had a clear angle towards the rim. Don't think VCU was worried about defending a lob/tip

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  #43  
Old 02-17-2019, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
It reminds me of the coach that automatically sits the star player for the final ten minutes of the first half after picking up his second foul while ultimately ending the game with just those two fouls. Too much coaching in position of fear of not having a star player or timeout in the final minutes while undervaluing possessions the first 90% of the game.
Often when a player picks up that second foul, they become less aggressive on defense. You saw that with Obi during the first half. He did not pick up another foul, but also he did not really challenge VCU defensively.
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Old 02-17-2019, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
Interesting you use the analogy of the player picking up the second foul, considering AG did the EXACT OPPOSITE yesterday when Obi picked up his second foul.
I wasn't criticizing AG for auto-benching with two fouls. What's your point?
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Old 02-17-2019, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Class of 73 Alum View Post
I hate to be a buzzkill with the general optimistic tone of this thread. Most of it is warranted. Maybe its because I'm getting to be a grumpy old man but Im sick of all the close losses in big games this team and its fans have endured this year. I will continue to watch, cheer and hope but i gotta admit I'm optimistic about the rest of the season.
Of course you could be a fan of AM and the Hoosiers and get blown out game after game. Flyers are competitive and have no blowout loses. I would say fair to good given the conditions this year. Agree we could do well the rest of the season, but the short bench could bite us.

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Old 02-17-2019, 02:51 PM
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Imagine if UD played 11 guys and VCU basically played 6 - only five late when their starting PG was cramping in the tunnel. UD fans would be concerned we mailed it in and almost got beat by 1/2 a team without their PG during crunch time. Flyer fans would expect nothing less than a blowout win and that we needed heroics to win on the last possession of the game tells us we are not in shape and don't have nearly the heart as some other teams in the league.
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Old 02-17-2019, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by forego1
Mike Milkovich, between 1956 and 1977, coached the Maple Hts. Mustangs to 16 undefeated seasons, 10 state championships, nine state runner-up finishes, and he guided a record 103 consecutive dual meet victories.
When was the last time a D1 men's basketball coach played in the NCAA championship game 19 of the 21 years they coached? Obviously based on this criteria there is no one good enough to coach UD!
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Old 02-17-2019, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by forego1 View Post
Mike Milkovich, between 1956 and 1977, coached the Maple Hts. Mustangs to 16 undefeated seasons, 10 state championships, nine state runner-up finishes, and he guided a record 103 consecutive dual meet victories.

The guy did this with scrawny ethnic kids from a very small high school. Some years they forfeited the heavyweight class because they had no one nearly big enough, and the school's football team was a perennial joke.
(The school did not win another wrestling championship after he retired)

I've heard the refrain here that it's mostly about recruited talent. NO, it's all about the coaching, and motivation of kids to execute at a high level, ESPECIALLY when there is testy stress and adversity.
[/SIZE]
Your comparison of D1 basketball to HS wresting 40+ years ago is a non-starter. I grew up in Garfield Hts, right next to Maple Hts. Maple is not some kind of small rural school. They were a suburb of Cleveland with 34,000 people and about 1,500 in the HS, and yes Milkovich achieved a great feat. Milkovich did recruit wrestlers, just like other schools recruited football and basketball players and still do. He was a great and intense leader and coach, who developed a program and a system. Not unlike what Coach Grant is now doing at UD. Milkovich did not do it without great players, nor does Coach K or any coach, especially in D1 football and basketball today.
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Old 02-17-2019, 05:03 PM
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Mike Milkovich for next UD Head Coach?* Because apparently he could just grab ten random guys from the PAC and win the A10.

*Assuming Ray Harper is not available, of course.
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Old 02-17-2019, 05:36 PM
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Maybe we could just drop basketball, hire Mike and become a national champion in wrestling every year. Talk about apples and oranges.
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Old 02-17-2019, 07:05 PM
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LOL, am I new blood ?

I'll explain my position a little better.
I last posted on the next six games thread, and there was this response to my thrust which I did not respond to (and no one but SLUFLYER even remotely challenged)

"The reality is college basketball is mostly about recruiting great players and getting them to buy in. Don't get me wrong a coach can make a difference, but its way less than most give them credit for."
I myself was a wrestling coach that took a program that never won anything to a conference championship in little over a year. I used Mike Milkovich in refutation of the claim above that stuck with me.
Coaches make a HUGE difference!!!!

Jack72, barring a few exceptions, Milkovich did not recruit wrestlers. The Deubel's even hosted the sectional draws. Those kids were locals!!! There were times they were without the top two weight classes. Recruit? You are
mistaken.
NCkevi and UD62 (read above). I have much doubt AG has prolific drive and acumen. Sorry, but that's it. My take is that hungry coaches want their own programs to lead. He left that position for whatever reasons. AND, this provides for another point... I have to believe he was hired largely because he was an alum. Nothing is wrong with that, excepting he did not demonstrate qualities that had other major programs fighting for him (conjecture on my part). Given we had a run where we had won more NCAAT games than all but two other programs, we were still a fairly juicy, attractive program. Where we are now, it probably would be a mistake not to ride with AG. I hope he has the passion to grow and succeed.

Look at the programs that fell off when losing top coaches > Memphis, Connecticut, UCLA....
Even just recently Xavier, Butler, and our own Dayton.

Last edited by forego1; 02-17-2019 at 07:16 PM..
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Old 02-17-2019, 07:38 PM
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Developing game plans, adjustments, mechanics, cohesion, motivation, consistency, honing peak efforts for the right games, building to a peak for the post season. Delegating, leading, and of course recruiting, and so much more.
It takes extraordinary people to do the job with modest success.
Transmitting confidence in general and in game specifically.

Programs have to win the game lost yesterday, or else you are not building the foundation to draw from later.

I'll leave now!!
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by forego1 View Post
I'll leave now!!
You said you were going to "stop" in post #29. I hope you mean it this time.

You are right about one thing. Anthony Grant would not be the head coach at the University of Dayton if he was not an alum. He would not have accepted the position otherwise!
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Lifelong Flyer Fan View Post
You said you were going to "stop" in post #29. I hope you mean it this time.

You are right about one thing. Anthony Grant would not be the head coach at the University of Dayton if he was not an alum. He would not have accepted the position otherwise!
Oh, I love exceptions, even if they multiply. Why do you hope anything, Lifelong Flyer Fan?
Take responsibility and make what you want to happen materialize. You defend AG vehemently because you believe he will fulfill the mission as set forth?

We both know that Is not going to happen. Go take your effing blue pill!

These coaches don't need coddling if they have intent to succeed. They will succeed no matter what someone says otherwise on a forum. Get some maturity.............

Oh and this is no longer fishing and trolling. MY sport is hunting!!!!

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Old 02-17-2019, 09:59 PM
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I forego some posts by using the ignore button...
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Old 02-17-2019, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by forego1 View Post
Look at the programs that fell off when losing top coaches > Memphis, Connecticut, UCLA....
Even just recently Xavier, Butler, and our own Dayton.
I mean...It might be losing the coach that caused us to take a step back. It also could have been losing 4 guys who made up the winningest (not a word) senior class in program history. Nah, you're probably right. Losing Scoochie, Kyle, Kendall, and Charles probably had nothing to do with it. We should have been able to sustain that success with the guys Grant started with.

You say that coaches matter. They do! Of course, so do players. Ignoring one or the other is shortsighted. They work together.

We took a step back last year. We took a step forward this year. Let's at least wait to see if we can continue to take steps forward before we go after the coach.
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:09 AM
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Exhibit A - Archie Miller. He was a genius for four years at UD. Now he has forgotten how to tie his shoes, and can't win with decent players.
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Old 02-18-2019, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Exhibit A - Archie Miller. He was a genius for four years at UD. Now he has forgotten how to tie his shoes, and can't win with decent players.
The Big Ten is much tougher than the A10, IMO, that definitely is part of the problem.

Bob Huggins 2-10 in the Big 12.

Lon Kruger 4-9

Sean Miller 5-8

Bruce Pearl 6-6

The much-beloved-on-here Tom Crean 1-11

Cuonzo Martin 3-9

Billy Kennedy 3-9

Mike Brey 3-9

Jim Larranaga 3-10

Danny Manning 2-10

Mike Anderson 5-7

Jamie Dixon 5-7



Even look at:

Ed Cooley 4-9

Greg McDermott 4-9

Gregg Marshall 5-7




Did all of these guys suddenly become bad coaches?

Life in the p5 is tough, you have to have your A game all the time, or you will get trounced.

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Old 02-18-2019, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
The Big Ten is much tougher than the A10, IMO, that definitely is part of the problem.

Bob Huggins 2-10 in the Big 12.

Lon Kruger 4-9

Sean Miller 5-8

Bruce Pearl 6-6

The much-beloved-on-here Tom Crean 1-11

Cuonzo Martin 3-9

Billy Kennedy 3-9

Mike Brey 3-9

Jim Larranaaga 3-10

Danny Manning 2-10

Mike Anderson 5-7

Jamie Dixon 5-7



Even look at:

Ed Cooley 4-9

Greg McDermott 4-9

Gregg Marshall 5-7




Did all of these guys suddenly become bad coaches?

Life in the p5 is tough, you have to have your A game all the time, or you will get trounced.
You have to have your A game and TALENT. Archie doesn’t have anyone who can consistently make an open jump shot. Again, being a successful coach is 85% recruiting and 15% X’s and O’s.
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Old 02-18-2019, 01:00 PM
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Agree that the B1G is a tougher conference than the A-10, but in theory the players are supposed to be better too. IU's are somewhat better but not as good as many of the other teams in the B1G. AM was under extreme pressure to land Langford, and the jury is still out on that one. AM could very well end up with a losing season and the heat, already intense, would only increase.

IU fans and boosters have an inflated opinion of where the IU program should be, and Archie is not meeting those expectations yet. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. AM wanted the job, he got it along with all the baggage that comes with it. Wish him well, I think he may be facing an uphill battle.

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Old 02-18-2019, 02:20 PM
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Archie does not have the talent, nor the talent to play his style. Langford is not the stud many said he was. His court sense is poor. Coaching is a big piece, but minute compared to talent.
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Old 02-18-2019, 07:28 PM
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What about Ray Harper's record?
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