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  #1  
Old 01-06-2018, 04:50 PM
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Crutcher

Although Crutcher is playing basically at the same offensive efficiency as Scoochie during his Freshman year, I am not seeing the development in three key areas. Still think Crutcher will be a very good player the next 3.5 years, but would like to see improvement: (1) 3 point shooting -- he is 15/60 on the year and his shot selection is poor to atrocious. Yet he has taken the 3rd most threes on the team behind Baby D and Jordan Davis. Today he took a 24-25 foot 3 with more than 10 seconds on the shot clock and Jordan Davis wide open if he takes one extra pass, an easy obvious pass. Scoochie only shot 27% from 3 his Freshman year but he only took 62 shots all year and his shot selection from 3 was materially better. Yes Crutcher is getting more minutes. I do not understand why he has the green light from AG -- I would put two constraints on him: shoot from 22 feet or less between 6-15 seconds on shot clock (don't shoot wide open with more than 15 seconds) or shoot any 3 with 5 seconds or less. (2) Crutcher uses his hands on dribble drive defense and either gets beat or fouls. I know coaches must be working on this with him, but very little improvement IMHO. (3) He is shooting between 5-10% on floaters this year acknowledging he made one in each of the last 2 games. The shot is the equivalent of a turnover. Ban floaters if more than 5 seconds on shot clock. Again shot selection issues.

Crutcher is shooting on almost 18% of possessions when he is in the game versus 18% for Jordan Davis who is Dayton's 1st or 2ns most efficient offensive player depending how you look at it (I would argue 2nd beyond Josh). Davis' effective field goal percentage of 62% whereas Crutcher at 40%. Crutcher has taken more shots than Jordan this year (would also like Jordan to be more aggressive).

Again, I think Crutcher will improve and be a very good point guard (not at the Scoochie level ever), but would like to see some improvement the 2H of season on these theee areas. Did not mention turnovers as this is normal for Freshman IMHO to have ups and downs and his assist to turnover ratio is actually good. His 5 turnovers today part of growing pains.

From my mobile so apologize for typos.
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Old 01-08-2018, 02:30 PM
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I agree with you his 5 turnovers were very costly today and he shoots a few too many deep 3s, but how you can look at the UMass game and come away unimpressed by Crutcher, a Freshman Grant found in the 11th hour? I am pleased by where he is so far in his early career.

Basically, the way Crosby has played the last few games, it is very hard to have him at point for any extended period of time. His reverse layup against UMass was a thing of beauty, and very Scoochie-esque...
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Old 01-08-2018, 03:16 PM
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Should have watched his counterpart on Umass. 25 points, 4 asst, 1 turnover. An agressive player driven to win. Took the big shot for and undermanned squad in a tough environment. And he's only a sophomore. Now compare him to our guy who can't or won't penetrate, had a bad release on his outside shot ( not really a jump shot) and is not a catalyst. I hope he improves, but I think he is very unlikely to be the pg to lead us back to respectability. We need better players badly. Today with players like Crutch, we are Fordhamesque and the turnaround seems year away. For some, if we put Stephen Hawking in a Flyer Jersey they'd say he's doing well for an old guy with some issues.
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Old 01-08-2018, 05:13 PM
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We're #272/351 in 3PT FG%, but #21/351 in 2PT FG%. I feel pretty good when Darrell and Jordan are open for threes. Others not so much -- everyone else shoots a combined 24% from deep. The problem is not Crutcher's alone.

Frosh Stats:

JALEN CRUTCHER/SCOOCHIE SMITH
2PT FG%: .487/.416
3PT FG%: .250/.274
FT%: .778/.567
A/TO: 1.81/1.78

Lets not forget that Scoochie was also surrounded by infinitely more talent -- passing the ball to the likes of Jordan Sibert, Vee Sanford, Dyshawn Pierre, and Devin Oliver. All four of those guys would probably start on this year's team with Josh being the #5 man.
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Old 01-08-2018, 05:15 PM
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Here's Pipkins bio

2016-17 - Freshman: Atlantic 10 Rookie of the Week (12/19) ... Made 33 appearances and started 28 contests ... Split his time between point guard and off-ball guard roles ... Provided 10.2 points, 2.3 assists, 2.3 rebounds and 1.9 steals per game ... Shot 34.0 percent overall (110-324), including 31.8 percent from beyond the arc (71-223) ... Hit 64.8 percent of his free throws (46-71) ... Owned a 1.51 assist-to-turnover ratio ... Began his collegiate career with 14 points, eight steals, four rebounds and three assists in the win over UMass Lowell (11/11) ... His eight steals against the River Hawks tied the program's single-game record ... Had 18 points and four steals at Ole Miss (11/14) ... Notched 11 points and six assists at Holy Cross (11/20) ... Earned 16 points, seven steals, six rebounds and two assists against UCF (12/3) ... Secured 20 points to go with two rebounds at Providence (12/10) ... Poured in a personal-best 27 points (9-17 FG, 8-14 3FG, 1-1 FT) with three assists, two steals and a pair of rebounds in the win over Kennesaw State ... His eight made field goals against Kennesaw State tied the program's single-game record ... Put in 12 points, ripped down five rebounds and dished out three assists at Georgia State (12/28) ... Secured a 16-point, five-rebound, three-assist outing at George Mason (1/4) ... Added 17 points, four rebounds and two steals during the win over Dayton (1/11) ... Notched 19 points, four rebounds and three steals in the win at Saint Joseph's (2/11) ... Followed with 16 points, three rebounds and three assists at Duquesne (2/15) ... Shot 63.6 percent (7-11) overall and had 19 points against Richmond (3/1) ... Scored 13 points on 4-of-8 shooting (3-6 3FG) and a 2-for-2 showing at the foul line in the Atlantic 10 Championship First Round win over Saint Joseph's (3/8) ... Scored 14 points and had two assists in the season finale against St. Bonaventure (3/9).

Before UMass: 4-star recruit via ESPN … No. 7 in Illinois, No. 22 PG and No. 23 in Midwest region (ESPN) … 3-star recruit according to 247Sports and Rivals … No. 12 in Illinois and No. 45 at point guard (247Sports) … Played AAU for Mac Irvin Fire … Chose UMass over Bradley, DePaul, La Salle, Northern Illinois and Valparaiso, among others.

So, ESPN had him as a 4 star, others a 3 star. No one had Crutcher as a 4 star, and he's only 15 games into his freshman year. Also, they may be totally different types of players, so I'm not sure a direct comparison is appropriate, especially at this time in the careers.
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Old 01-08-2018, 07:15 PM
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Over the last 5 - 8 years the A-10 had had a multitude of lightening quick guards who have displayed the ability to penetrate (and score) -- especially against the Flyers. Even in OOC games we seem to run into guards like this -- even on low mid-majors that come to the Arena for buy games. Who was the last Flyer who had those characteristics and abilities (Scoochie was not lightening quick)? Kevin Dillard is the only one I can think of and I don't put even him in the group that consistently have left Flyer defenders in their wake.
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Old 01-08-2018, 08:09 PM
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Crutcher release on his shot seems low, don't know if it's fixable but that might make it harder to get off contested 3s
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Old 01-08-2018, 09:02 PM
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I guess I’m in the minority here; I’m very pleased/impressed with Crutcher. SS was not lightening quick. Crutcher is much fast. SS was crafty, made some ridiculous moves in the paint when we needed it; ditto Crutcher from what we’ve seen already. SS had a set shot release that got better and better. We see the same with Crutcher.

I’d say their freshman years stack up very similarly and by far SS had much more experienced players around him. Crutcher will go down as one of the better pg’s to ever play for the Flyers. Would everbody please take your anxiety meds and chill. This freshman class is going to be special but it takes time.
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Old 01-08-2018, 09:25 PM
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Crutcher will never be a pipkins he does not have that kind of quickness!! He may become an adequate 3 point shooter but will never have the quicknees to get in the lane like Pipkins!
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Old 01-09-2018, 07:02 AM
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Everyone on this team has the green light from 3. It is evidenced by the positioning in the offensive sets. It is evidenced by watching the guys in warmups. They all take a shooting session from behind the arc. Back in the day if you weren't a 3 point shooter you didn't even practice the **** things. Our guys all practice them and all shoot them. That makes it pretty clear to me that while some shooters are preferred, when push comes to shove...every last guy has the authority to shoot the three when they feel they are open.

Crutcher has a good shot but he also has a "not so friendly D1" release. When he is unguarded he can nail them from anywhere. That was observed on his film from high school and is observed today. OSU Flyer mentions it. The release starts low on the shoulder, which is typical of players that probably started to pull from deep at a young age and weren't strong enough to do so. Now is mechanics offer a lower release. Baby D's release is high and he elevates on his jumper. That is why he can get off the shots that he does with ease.

Yes...Scooch was a great player. He also was surrounded by better players his freshman year and was also playing in a totally different type of system. Other than them both being freshman point guards, that is where the comparisons end. Had Scooch played in the "green light" type of system that AG has, I don't know if his numbers would have been any better that Crutcher's in terms of shooting.
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:51 AM
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I like Crutcher and I think he's going to turn out to be a really nice player. He is also well setup to be a fan favorite as the years go on.

That said, we have not won any games because of him. His job is to not turn the ball over and make an occasional shot. AG doesn't ask him to really drive this team or run the offense the way a PG normally would. The fact that we don't have a PG who can run this team has been a huge problem this year.

Crutcher will continue to get better this year and all the playing time sets him up well for his Sophomore year. But right now, he's not doing us a lot of favors.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:13 AM
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I Like Him Too

but I wish he would pass the ball to JC more. UD's inside game is their strength and they don't know it yet. The season is half gone.
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Old 01-09-2018, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
We're #272/351 in 3PT FG%, but #21/351 in 2PT FG%. I feel pretty good when Darrell and Jordan are open for threes. Others not so much -- everyone else shoots a combined 24% from deep. The problem is not Crutcher's alone.
And here's the part that makes my head explode: Dayton has attempted 369 3FG and 440 2FG. These guys need to figure out which side of their bread to butter. Not only would this eliminate some of the Flyers' least efficient options, but would in theory increase the number of FTA.

Chris - you should feel good about Baby D from behind the arc at 41%, but he's only shooting 42% on 2FGA. Baby D has improved his game, but he should be mainly attacking aggressive close-outs with the dribble and not waving guys off to ISO. His A:TO ratio (<1.0) also supports this assertion.

This may have been alluded to elsewhere, but Cunnigham is not only shooting 67% - he's shooting 73% inside the arc. Can we give all of Josh's 3FGA to Baby D and all of Baby D's 2FGA to Josh?

I'd love to know the splits on Dayton catch-and-shoot triples vs off-the-dribble. Feels like the freshman especially are excellent when pass comes from inside-out. Right now post players aren't looking to make that pass b/c the post feeds are so infrequent. If this team wants to unlock a post-season run it's going to come from a commitment to playing inside-out.
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Old 01-09-2018, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Alberto Strasse View Post
but I wish he would pass the ball to JC more. UD's inside game is their strength and they don't know it yet. The season is half gone.
I listened to Flyer Feedback after the last game and according to Brooks Hall, which of course I know we all know more than him, the team certainly understands the ball needs to go inside, we just aren't getting it done. Brooks talked about watching practices and watching AG and staff constantly harp about getting the ball inside. He indicated we are successful getting the ball inside in practice, but the guards are not penetrating in games to the point they can break down the defense and get the ball inside. Part of this is obviously the defense they are working against in practice is not at the level of the defense they are seeing in games, meaning the success in practice is not translating to success in games.

Some on this board believe AG has no offensive scheme, I believe Brooks, who attends practices, when he says the offensive scheme is there and is a solid offense, we just aren't executing the scheme in games.
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Old 01-09-2018, 12:05 PM
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Taking the above and looking at it from the outside...

The post is open. I watch Cunningham get open time after time. The ball doesn't make it there. It isn't a Crutcher thing, is is an "everyone thing". Josh will get the guy on his top hip...feed to the left hand and he has the baseline to himself.

The looks on the faces of the players trying to get it into the post remind me of guards I played with back in the day. They wouldn't throw the post feed and had a frustrated look on their face as if they really wanted to get it inside. Not the case.

The offense seems to rely on quickness and no patience. The guys on the floor aren't able to make the quick read, so they are already moving to option 2 or 3 while passing up 1. It was evident by Trey on the last play of the UMass game. Option 1 was completely abandoned. This happens possession after possession in the half court.

The post feed isn't there and then the post leaves his good position on the block with an uncovered baseline to come up and set a P&R that isn't executed. Then it transitions to a kick out or reversal. Our ball side offense in the 2 man game isn't good. The buckets are coming from put backs, transition, reversals/skips, and the occasional first option...the post or P&R.

There is no patience. They seem to sacrifice quickness for passing up initial options. You can play quick and fast while patient.
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Old 01-09-2018, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by IndianaFlyer View Post
I listened to Flyer Feedback after the last game and according to Brooks Hall, which of course I know we all know more than him, the team certainly understands the ball needs to go inside, we just aren't getting it done. Brooks talked about watching practices and watching AG and staff constantly harp about getting the ball inside. He indicated we are successful getting the ball inside in practice, but the guards are not penetrating in games to the point they can break down the defense and get the ball inside. Part of this is obviously the defense they are working against in practice is not at the level of the defense they are seeing in games, meaning the success in practice is not translating to success in games.

Some on this board believe AG has no offensive scheme, I believe Brooks, who attends practices, when he says the offensive scheme is there and is a solid offense, we just aren't executing the scheme in games.
Thanks. Solid info.

Its gonna take the freshman a little while to adjust to this level of play, especially when they are being asked to take over a much larger role than anyone, them included, ever anticipated.

The game will slow down for them (Crutch, JDavis) eventually and they'll be more confident about dictating the flow of the offense rather than settling for what the D gives them, but its gonna take time.

And, I don't mind saying that seeing a Crutcher thread after the UMass game was pretty **** surprising IMO. Of all the Flyers on the court Saturday, he and Cunningham were the only bright...well dim...spots on the team. The rest of the gang is way, way more responsible for the soiled sheets.

And, I disagree about Crutcher's future as a PG. I think he's gonna be a fine player and will continue to grow into the position. His shot needs work, but he's got the skills to play the point.
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Old 01-09-2018, 01:01 PM
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When I watch the games, all I see is the PG dribbling with a big coming to set a side screen, then passing to a wing or continuing to slide to the outside. We don't set solid screens and even if the screen is good, the dribbler is not cutting hard off of it. I rarely see sets where the PG either attempts to penetrate without a screen, or passes to a wing who has a better entry angle. If the wing does get the pass, he typically just reverses field back to the center and usually a big comes to set a screen again.

I don't see a lot of this same movement when I watch other teams. I see a lot of passes to the wings who then look to dump it low onto the block. Then maybe a high screen to free a guy to receive a pass back from the block for an open 3, or the big makes a move to the basket.
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Old 01-09-2018, 01:15 PM
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Once he puts on some more weight I think he'll be more effective attacking the basket & in traffic. That'll open opportunities for others.

With the shot I wonder if changing his release point is a realistic possibility
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Old 01-09-2018, 01:40 PM
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NOt sure AG doesn't have red lights and green lights for some players. "Crutch" should have a RED LIght for 3s. With one caveats.... last few secs of shot clock and nothing available.
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Old 01-09-2018, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyer 86 View Post
NOt sure AG doesn't have red lights and green lights for some players. "Crutch" should have a RED LIght for 3s. With one caveats.... last few secs of shot clock and nothing available.
Have you seen anyone red light a shot? Unless it's been a 4 or 5...every single 1,2, or 3 lets them fly.

Every last player has the green light for a 3. As I mentioned above, if they they didn't, they wouldn't be shooting the hell out of them in warmups.
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Old 01-09-2018, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Once he puts on some more weight I think he'll be more effective attacking the basket & in traffic. That'll open opportunities for others.

With the shot I wonder if changing his release point is a realistic possibility
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Tweaking shot mechanics is an option. I think he needs more than a tweak which is problematic. There are successful college/NBA players with funky shot techniques - AG needs to work with him to minimize contested shots with such a low release.
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Old 01-10-2018, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
Tweaking shot mechanics is an option. I think he needs more than a tweak which is problematic. There are successful college/NBA players with funky shot techniques - AG needs to work with him to minimize contested shots with such a low release.
Not acting like I know the answer to this question - I’m just asking. But how bad was the outside shooting form of Karl “The Mailman” Malone when he first entered the NBA? He shot below 50% from the line as a rookie and, by his 4th season, he was regularly over 75% (and he became a reliable option on the “pick and pop” with John Stockton). Did his form change all that radically, or was it a case of repetition building muscle memory?

Also, I seem to remember hearing something about Larry Bird having to recraft his shot after he broke a finger.

Just saying, learning a new shooting technique isn’t unheard of. It’s not horribly common, but it has happened before.
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Old 01-10-2018, 10:34 PM
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Harder to do in college
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:16 AM
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I think some of the problems with Crutcher’s release will improve with strength and conditioning. He seems to labor a little too much to get the ball to the rim from behind the 3-pt line. In short, daily sessions with rollo will do wonders for this young man.
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
Not acting like I know the answer to this question - I’m just asking. But how bad was the outside shooting form of Karl “The Mailman” Malone when he first entered the NBA? He shot below 50% from the line as a rookie and, by his 4th season, he was regularly over 75% (and he became a reliable option on the “pick and pop” with John Stockton). Did his form change all that radically, or was it a case of repetition building muscle memory?

Also, I seem to remember hearing something about Larry Bird having to recraft his shot after he broke a finger.

Just saying, learning a new shooting technique isn’t unheard of. It’s not horribly common, but it has happened before.
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I think about guys like Shawn Marion and Kevin Martin. If changing shot mechanics was easy - they would have done it.
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Old 01-11-2018, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
I think about guys like Shawn Marion and Kevin Martin. If changing shot mechanics was easy - they would have done it.
Lee Trevino Jim Furyk....
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Old 01-11-2018, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by frisco flyer View Post
I think some of the problems with Crutcher’s release will improve with strength and conditioning. He seems to labor a little too much to get the ball to the rim from behind the 3-pt line. In short, daily sessions with rollo will do wonders for this young man.
I agree a little more strength will be a big help. Is Crutcher's shot now that different than Scoochie's as a freshman?
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Old 01-11-2018, 11:41 AM
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In college these guys only have so much time & the NCAA limits access to the coaches over the summer. Given those constraints its gonna be tough
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by frisco flyer View Post
I think some of the problems with Crutcher’s release will improve with strength and conditioning. He seems to labor a little too much to get the ball to the rim from behind the 3-pt line. In short, daily sessions with rollo will do wonders for this young man.
I could see improved strength and conditioning improving Crutcher's defense and ability to score in the paint. But I can't believe his 3point shot release has anything to do with strength. Any college kid is plenty strong enough to shoot a 3 pointer. My 4th grade daughter on the other hand...her shot form falls apart outside of 8'-10'.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
In college these guys only have so much time & the NCAA limits access to the coaches over the summer. Given those constraints its gonna be tough
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Yes but not really....just saying...there are workarounds that are abundant.

And within the rules... players have 8 hours per week of contact for a total of 8 weeks as long as players maintain a certain gpa or were enrolled in summer classes.

Now...you get 2 hours 4 days a week...with coaching staff...

Add to that the time without coaching staff, such as "non-mandatory" court time where payers are held accountable by team captains. The 2 hours per day gets stretched to 3+ real quick and all within the rules. This is more time than the staff sees their players in season, sans games, travel, and rehab.

There is a reason why OSU football players say that they have more work on them in the off season than in season...that's where you put together championship teams.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
Not acting like I know the answer to this question - I’m just asking. But how bad was the outside shooting form of Karl “The Mailman” Malone when he first entered the NBA? He shot below 50% from the line as a rookie and, by his 4th season, he was regularly over 75% (and he became a reliable option on the “pick and pop” with John Stockton). Did his form change all that radically, or was it a case of repetition building muscle memory?

Also, I seem to remember hearing something about Larry Bird having to recraft his shot after he broke a finger.

Just saying, learning a new shooting technique isn’t unheard of. It’s not horribly common, but it has happened before.
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Definitely true. However altering an outside shot versus practicing a free throw shot are very different things.

More movement in an outside shot. Often a different release point.
And for oomph factor it all changes some, from how deep or close one is shooting. Many players, Scooch is a perfect example, is more of a SET shot from 3. But that often changes on drives and 15 footers obviously.
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
Yes but not really....just saying...there are workarounds that are abundant.

And within the rules... players have 8 hours per week of contact for a total of 8 weeks as long as players maintain a certain gpa or were enrolled in summer classes.

Now...you get 2 hours 4 days a week...with coaching staff...

Add to that the time without coaching staff, such as "non-mandatory" court time where payers are held accountable by team captains. The 2 hours per day gets stretched to 3+ real quick and all within the rules. This is more time than the staff sees their players in season, sans games, travel, and rehab.

There is a reason why OSU football players say that they have more work on them in the off season than in season...that's where you put together championship teams.
Rebuilding a shot is a pretty intensive process especially if you're starting over. Michael Kidd-Gilchrest I read spent hours & hours with a shooting coach. The time is there to practice but I'm skeptical the hours are with a coach that can help rebuild your mechanics from scratch. You need feedback on what you're doing vs shooting in a gym alone.

To do it effectively it sounds like you really need someone working with you day in & out with a good amount of feedback. Minor problems I think could be corrected but I look at his shot as something in need of a total rebuild.

Football you do more work in the offseason because those guys go through a rigorous strength training, conditioning regime
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Old 01-11-2018, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by superfan99 View Post
I could see improved strength and conditioning improving Crutcher's defense and ability to score in the paint. But I can't believe his 3point shot release has anything to do with strength. Any college kid is plenty strong enough to shoot a 3 pointer. My 4th grade daughter on the other hand...her shot form falls apart outside of 8'-10'.
My experience was (assuming you're playing ball all the time)... the stronger you get, the easier the 3 pt point line gets - range increases.

Of course, that won't change his release completely... but I think the added strength will allow him to release the ball higher.
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:56 PM
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As a model look at how much London Warren improved his shot--- not. It's very difficult. Beyond his less than optimal accuracy Crutcher's low release leads to getting blocked and forces him to shoot from further back to avoid getting blocked. At 25% from three he just shouldn't be taking many ( maybe any), but 61% of his shots are 3's, and they go in at roughly half of Jordan Davis's shots %,
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:39 PM
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Then there is Kyle Davis.

17%
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37% the last two years combined. Fans were pretty much saying the same things you just said.
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:02 AM
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Crutcher can hit a high % but like Kyle Davis he's gotta pick his spots
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:51 PM
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For all you haters out there, Crutcher was 2 rebounds away from UDs first triple double. I guess 10 dimes and 0 turnovers wasn't bad either.
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:53 PM
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The kid will be absolutely special as he continues to grow
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by John C. View Post
For all you haters out there, Crutcher was 2 rebounds away from UDs first triple double. I guess 10 dimes and 0 turnovers wasn't bad either.
Who was the last UD player to have a triple double?
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:13 PM
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UD has never had one.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Crutcher can hit a high % but like Kyle Davis he's gotta pick his spots
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I liked the spots he picked tonight.
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Old 01-13-2018, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
I liked the spots he picked tonight.
Agreed, open shots usually off of good ball movement. Didn't seem like anything was forced or contested
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by John C. View Post
For all you haters out there, Crutcher was 2 rebounds away from UDs first triple double. I guess 10 dimes and 0 turnovers wasn't bad either.
Only he still has a low release point. But he did his thing and it was working so for this game everything was ALL RIGHT!
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:27 AM
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One game does not make a season. If he plays at a fraction of last night all season he had a good freshman year. If he continues to shoot 3s at a horrible rate then we're right back to where we were last week
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by John C. View Post
For all you haters out there, Crutcher was 2 rebounds away from UDs first triple double. I guess 10 dimes and 0 turnovers wasn't bad either.
That might be the stat of the night...that no UD player has ever had a triple double.
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Old 01-13-2018, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Agreed, open shots usually off of good ball movement. Didn't seem like anything was forced or contested
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Yes, just about everything happened within the flow of the offense. Was a beautiful thing to see.
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Old 01-13-2018, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
That might be the stat of the night...that no UD player has ever had a triple double.
Since 00-01, Crutcher was the closest to a triple double with 8 rebounds. Previously Dillard had a double double with 7 steals. Noone else since 00-01 had a double double with 7 or more in a third stat.
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Old 01-13-2018, 10:11 AM
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I have always been a purist when it comes to coaching shooting, but some kids just get into bad habits, but it still works. In the end do the shots go in, can he shoot when he is tired and can he shoot in the clutch?

Scoochie's form sort of annoyed me. Too much of a set shot. They went in and could he shoot in the clutch. That Davidson overtime display last year was unbelievable.

So in terms of Crutcher, as a freshmen, darn good!
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Old 01-13-2018, 10:41 AM
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After last nights game, Crutcher has an A/TO ratio of 2.17.

Long way to go in the season, but he has a shot to break the UD Fr A/TO record, 2.22, held by Jack Zimmerman ('76-77).
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:27 PM
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Jalen's played pretty well the last 4 games (against some top A10 teams):

VCU - 12 pts, 10 assists, 8 rebounds, 3 steals, 0 turnovers
St Joes - 23 pts, 2 assists, 3 rebounds, 1 steal, 1 turnover
RI - 7 pts, 4 assists, 1 rebound, 2 steals, 4 turnovers
Davidson - 12 pts, 6 assists, 3 rebounds, 0 steals, 0 turnovers

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Old 02-08-2018, 07:58 AM
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So this is interesting to track Jalen against Scoochie.

Jalen C- 8.5ppg .417 FG% .346 3PT% .710 FT% 4.1 AST 1.8 TO
S. Smith- 9.2ppg .414 FG% .380 3PT% .755 FT% 3.8 AST 2.0 TO

That's Scoochie's sophomore numbers.

Crutch his pulled his 3% up nearly ten points since the beginning of January
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Old 02-08-2018, 08:44 AM
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Jalen is going to be a superstar in this conference
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Old 02-08-2018, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by lhsgolf19 View Post
Jalen is going to be a superstar in this conference
I think you meant to say both our freshmen guards are going to be superstars in this conference.
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Old 02-08-2018, 09:06 AM
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Yes the two freshmen guards are good and at this point would get time at any school in the country. I have to be that guy though...I hope they advance in reading (seeing) the floor even better, because both often miss the bigs cutting to the basket for even more uncontested dunks and lay-ins. Rightfully so the bigs show just a tad of displeasure. I have full faith when it's all said and done both will have taken their games to a totally different level.
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Old 02-08-2018, 10:36 AM
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I was watching the halftime story on Crutcher. Thought it was interesting that DD said he thinks Crutcher is an NBA talent.

Without arguing about the validity of that opinion, I found it interesting the team thinks so highly of him. That should help his confidence as he develops.
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Old 02-08-2018, 11:43 AM
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Since the inception of this thread, Jalen is 22 for 47 from behind the arc, while Jordan Davis is 14 for 35. I actually feel that Jalen has a more dependable 3 point shot, particularly when his feet are set, than Davis. Perhaps I am seeing something that's not there on Davis' threes, but for some reason I get the impression the mechanics aren't text book. I feel like I have seen several of his shots that come off with a tint of a sideways spin.

Anyone else have anything to add on this? Perhaps I've not seen enough video/live action of Davis or have just happened to catch an inordinate number of "bad releases"?
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Old 02-08-2018, 12:55 PM
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Crutcher has been the most pleasant surprise in a very tough year. No reason he shouldn't be all A10 in the future. We got lucky he was available.
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Old 02-08-2018, 01:55 PM
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looks vs good looks

Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
Since the inception of this thread, Jalen is 22 for 47 from behind the arc, while Jordan Davis is 14 for 35. I actually feel that Jalen has a more dependable 3 point shot, particularly when his feet are set, than Davis. Perhaps I am seeing something that's not there on Davis' threes, but for some reason I get the impression the mechanics aren't text book. I feel like I have seen several of his shots that come off with a tint of a sideways spin.

Anyone else have anything to add on this? Perhaps I've not seen enough video/live action of Davis or have just happened to catch an inordinate number of "bad releases"?
I believe that Jalen has gotten more good looks in recent games.
Jordan has gotten some looks, but they are often after having to make a circus catch of a pass headed for the seats. I think he made 3 such catches last night.
Both of their shots seem have a lot to do with things that happen before they get the ball. When either one receives a pass with the ball hitting them in the shooing pocket, they look very good. I give Jordan the edge because his release is quicker and higher.
When either have to reach up and make a one handed over the shoulder grab while keeping their feet in bounds, the percentages drop considerably.
Jalen has been the recipient of many more pocket passes in recent games. He also tends to end up open with the ball in his hands when there are breakdowns and defensive scrambles.
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Old 02-08-2018, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
Since the inception of this thread, Jalen is 22 for 47 from behind the arc, while Jordan Davis is 14 for 35. I actually feel that Jalen has a more dependable 3 point shot, particularly when his feet are set, than Davis. Perhaps I am seeing something that's not there on Davis' threes, but for some reason I get the impression the mechanics aren't text book. I feel like I have seen several of his shots that come off with a tint of a sideways spin.

Anyone else have anything to add on this? Perhaps I've not seen enough video/live action of Davis or have just happened to catch an inordinate number of "bad releases"?
Jalen shoots more of a set shot so needs to be completely open to shoot, ala Scoochie. Jordan has a more pure jump shot and can catch and shoot so doesn't need as much room to get his shot off. Both work but in different scenarios.
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Old 02-08-2018, 03:54 PM
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Jalen's release is low so he I think that forces him to take deeper 3s to keep them from being contested. Agree on him needing his feet set & not being a catch & shoot guy. His mechanics and release are unorthodox but he's making it work. He shot a high % from 3 in AAU & high school

When I looked on the Memphis board for info about him they thought his release was too low to get his shot off in college to be an effective shooter. I suspect a year or two from now they'll be complaining about Tubby missing him

Jordan Davis seems like his form is fine to me. Brian Roberts as a freshman hit 43-100 threes. Davis so far is 44-103 for a .427% so he's tracking right around BRob even with his struggles at times
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Old 02-08-2018, 08:48 PM
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42.7% is an incredible three-ball percentage, no matter how experienced the player. Jordan Davis has impressed me a lot. Even during his scoring drought, he really stepped up his defense. I think he is a bit quicker and stronger than Jalen Crutcher.
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Old 02-08-2018, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Although Crutcher is playing basically at the same offensive efficiency as Scoochie during his Freshman year, I am not seeing the development in three key areas. Still think Crutcher will be a very good player the next 3.5 years, but would like to see improvement: (1) 3 point shooting -- he is 15/60 on the year and his shot selection is poor to atrocious. Yet he has taken the 3rd most threes on the team behind Baby D and Jordan Davis. Today he took a 24-25 foot 3 with more than 10 seconds on the shot clock and Jordan Davis wide open if he takes one extra pass, an easy obvious pass. Scoochie only shot 27% from 3 his Freshman year but he only took 62 shots all year and his shot selection from 3 was materially better. Yes Crutcher is getting more minutes. I do not understand why he has the green light from AG -- I would put two constraints on him: shoot from 22 feet or less between 6-15 seconds on shot clock (don't shoot wide open with more than 15 seconds) or shoot any 3 with 5 seconds or less. (2) Crutcher uses his hands on dribble drive defense and either gets beat or fouls. I know coaches must be working on this with him, but very little improvement IMHO. (3) He is shooting between 5-10% on floaters this year acknowledging he made one in each of the last 2 games. The shot is the equivalent of a turnover. Ban floaters if more than 5 seconds on shot clock. Again shot selection issues.

Crutcher is shooting on almost 18% of possessions when he is in the game versus 18% for Jordan Davis who is Dayton's 1st or 2ns most efficient offensive player depending how you look at it (I would argue 2nd beyond Josh). Davis' effective field goal percentage of 62% whereas Crutcher at 40%. Crutcher has taken more shots than Jordan this year (would also like Jordan to be more aggressive).

Again, I think Crutcher will improve and be a very good point guard (not at the Scoochie level ever), but would like to see some improvement the 2H of season on these theee areas. Did not mention turnovers as this is normal for Freshman IMHO to have ups and downs and his assist to turnover ratio is actually good. His 5 turnovers today part of growing pains.

From my mobile so apologize for typos.
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His three selection is questionable at times. If he doesn't take wide open looks, the D will sag into Josh (even more), and swarm on J Davis. Maybe just a touch more selective would do. Agree....need to work on the D, but most freshman do.
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Old 02-08-2018, 10:14 PM
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If Crutch can get in the weight room and put on some muscle I think his 2pt% could be even higher. If he can absorb/take more contact he's gonna be able finish more around the rim. The more he's threat to drive & score is going to force defenders to sag off of him which should get him some better looks on 3s
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Old 02-08-2018, 11:27 PM
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The more I watch Crutcher and Davis play as an all-freshman backcourt, the more excited and hopeful I get about seeing them as an all-senior backcourt. These are a couple of special players.
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Old 02-09-2018, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
The more I watch Crutcher and Davis play as an all-freshman backcourt, the more excited and hopeful I get about seeing them as an all-senior backcourt. These are a couple of special players.
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I'm kind of more excited to see them as a more experienced and talented backcourt duo next year....Been a long season with lots of minutes. Add in an off-season with mental/physical maturity, college life, adding some size and weight training, etc.
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Old 02-09-2018, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
If Crutch can get in the weight room and put on some muscle I think his 2pt% could be even higher. If he can absorb/take more contact he's gonna be able finish more around the rim. The more he's threat to drive & score is going to force defenders to sag off of him which should get him some better looks on 3s
Absolutely...He's already perfected the floater which will always be in his arsenal and needs to play into contact more to get to the FT line and create more separation from defenders playing him more honestly...Jordan Siebert had an issue his 1st year at UD as a 21 year old taking the ball into defenders and avoiding contact at the rim and that was with a body that had already been in a weight room for 3 years...

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Old 02-09-2018, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
The more I watch Crutcher and Davis play as an all-freshman backcourt, the more excited and hopeful I get about seeing them as an all-senior backcourt. These are a couple of special players.
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Old 02-09-2018, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
Absolutely...He's already perfected the floater which will always be in his arsenal and needs to play into contact more to get to the FT line and create more separation from defenders playing him more honestly...Jordan Siebert had an issue his 1st year at UD as a 21 year old taking the ball into defenders and avoiding contact at the rim and that was with a body that had already been in a weight room for 3 years...
Perfected the floater? If his shooting % on floaters is over 20% I will eat my shoe.

He has perfected taking them....he has not perfected making them. That will come with time, but right now I cringe every time he does it.
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Old 02-09-2018, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by shapanud View Post
After last nights game, Crutcher has an A/TO ratio of 2.17.

Long way to go in the season, but he has a shot to break the UD Fr A/TO record, 2.22, held by Jack Zimmerman ('76-77).
Crutcher now at 95A/42TO for a 2.26 A/TO ratio.

If he finishes the season at this number, it would break the freshmen record and be the 8th best A/TO ratio of all time at UD.
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Old 02-09-2018, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by shapanud View Post
Crutcher now at 95A/42TO for a 2.26 A/TO ratio.

If he finishes the season at this number, it would break the freshmen record and be the 8th best A/TO ratio of all time at UD.
Pretty good for a late-signee freshman.
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Old 02-09-2018, 12:09 PM
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I love Crutcher

I see a lot of things as a ref that give me great feelings about Crutcher and his potential as a point guard...here's my royal perspective:

You can't coach (a) height (b) speed (c) quickness or (d) instinct.

Crutcher doesn't have (a)....but for his position, it doesn't matter.

Crutcher has (b), but he's a V8 Dodge as opposed to a V8 Mercedes.

Crutcher has (c) and it's the first thing I noticed about him in Game 1. His first step is explosive and I expect it to get better with time.

I'm still unsure about (d) because sometimes Crutcher plays tentatively, but I attribute that more to coaching than I do talent. I tend to say he has excellent instinct, especially after games where he plays 39 minutes and has 0 turnovers.

Just my 2-shillings...
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Old 02-09-2018, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by shapanud View Post
Crutcher now at 95A/42TO for a 2.26 A/TO ratio.

If he finishes the season at this number, it would break the freshmen record and be the 8th best A/TO ratio of all time at UD.
A quick look at box scores...

After 10 games Crutcher was 26A/18TO for a 1.44 ratio.
That means for the last 13 games he has 69A/24TO for 2.87 ratio.

Very impressive.

His TOs have stayed consistent about 1.8 per game while his assists have doubled from 2.6 per game to 5.3

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Old 02-09-2018, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
Pretty good for a late-signee freshman.
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Old 02-09-2018, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by superfan99 View Post
His TOs have stayed consistent about 1.8 per game while his assists have doubled from 2.6 per game to 5.3
Something to add to this is that his TO's have not increased significantly, but his minutes have.

He averaged about 25 minutes a game in the non-conference and about 35 minutes per game in the conference. Assists per game have risen from 2.8 to 5.5 and turnovers have increased from 1.6 to 2.1. My numbers are a little different because I drew the line at in/out of conference.

Either way - he is getting increased minutes and he is learning to value the ball. I also think his increase in shooting percentage (30.8% out of conference and 49.5% in conference) has forced teams to respect him as a scorer - which opens him up to do other things.
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Old 02-09-2018, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
Yeah but AG doesn’t know anything....
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So say some...
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Old 02-11-2018, 02:02 PM
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I made the initial post and am much more bullish on Crutcher now a month+ later.

Crutcher is taking a ton less floaters and taking a ton less deep 3s early in the shot clock. He has progressed massively. On Ball Defense is getting better as well. His assist rate (assists divided by the field goals made by the player’s teammates while he is on the court) is 26.3 for #157 in the country and only slightly behind Scoochie's Junior year assist rate of 27.4 for #143 in the country.

Never thought I would say this, but Crutcher is now playing at somewhere between Scoochie as a sophmore and junior. Yes I said it.

Let's compare Scoochie and Crutcher using individual offensive rating (OTRG) -- "Individual offensive rating is the number of points produced by a player per hundred total individual possessions. In other words, 'How many points is a player likely to generate when he tries?' Takes into account shots (including free throws), turnovers, assists, etc. Think of 100+ solid, 110+ very good, and 120+ amazing (for players involved in at least 20% of possessions, #100 in the country is a rating of about 116).

Scoochie
Freshman All Games = 89.5
Freshman Conference Only = 92.9
Sophomore All = 102.7
Sophomore Conf = 101.7
Junior All = 110.1
Junior Conf = 109.1
Senior All = 113.4
Senior Conf = 115.6 (7th best in conference)

Crutcher
Freshman All = 108.5
Freshman Conference = 119.1 (12th best in conference)

So for entire Freshman season, Crutcher is playing slightly below Scoochie's junior year and materially above Scoochie's sophomore year. In conference, Crutcher is playing better than Schoochie's senior year in conference! Now Crutcher is only being used 18-19% of possessions whereas Scoochie was being used in 21-23% of possessions junior/senior year. It is easier to be more efficient when you are used in less possessions. I forget whether OTRG is adjusted for competition under kenpom, but I believe it is (need to confirm so not for certain).

BTW, Josh at 122.5 for the year; Jordan Davis at 119.5 (but only used 14% of possessions), Trey at 112, Crutcher at 108.5, and Baby D at 105.8. Rest of team is below 100. Good sign that 3/4 of Dayton's top offensive rated players are Freshman and Sophomores (and Trey a Freshman in terms of experience).

Some more detailed explanations on offensive ratings below. I massively simplified above.

https://kenpom.com/blog/help-with-team-page/

https://kenpom.com/blog/individual-stats-primer/

https://cbbstatshelp.com/player-stats/offensive-rating/

http://www.basketballgeek.com/2009/1...-by-play-data/

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html
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Old 02-11-2018, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
Perfected the floater? If his shooting % on floaters is over 20% I will eat my shoe.

He has perfected taking them....he has not perfected making them. That will come with time, but right now I cringe every time he does it.
I think if you look at the last 7 or so games you will be surprised by his shooting % on floaters.
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Old 02-11-2018, 02:54 PM
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rue- How does Crutcher compare to the other pgs in the conference? In particular the other freshman - Grady (Davidson) and Goodwin (SLU).
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Old 02-11-2018, 02:55 PM
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Crutchers currentt KenPom rating is slightly higher than Mckinley Wright.
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:08 PM
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Grady is 121.7 for #129 in nation and #2 in conference. Lack of assists and turnovers make him look more like shooting guard rather than point guard.

Goodwin 98.8 as has abysmal shooting from 2 (43%) and 2 (24%) but taking over 25% of team's shots!
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:17 PM
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Is this behind the paywall at Kenpom?
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
Perfected the floater? If his shooting % on floaters is over 20% I will eat my shoe.

He has perfected taking them....he has not perfected making them. That will come with time, but right now I cringe every time he does it.
Cable TV go off much during those storms up in Minnesota?
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:37 PM
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Crutcher really struggled in the first half of the season to get into the lane and either penetrate/dish or go rack and finish. Crosby was inserted in these situations when we were too perimeter-oriented and needed some dribble-drive in the paint.

In the last 7-8 games, Crutcher has gotten much better -- perhaps just from all the playing time and the natural progression of getting more confident. Whatever the reason may be, he's doing exceedingly well at dribble-drive in transition beating guys downcourt for tough dipsy-doo layups.

Based on what I saw against VCU, we were most dangerous letting go of the reigns on this kid and letting the sled dog run. He was running past 3 VCU players in transition -- and he was dribbling and they were not. VCU is not a good defensie team this year. That's part of it. But whether it was jail-break basketball or baseball passes, Crutcher seemed to be as happy as a husky in a snowbank to just play reaction basketball and not have to overthink things.

Given our lack of depth, not sure it changes the trajectory this season. But in the next couple seasons I think we can play fast with this kid. REAL fast. I did not think he would make this level of improvement in year one -- I have to be accountable for that.

I dont want to over-step things the other way too much though. He, like everyone not named Josh Cunningham, has a lot of things they can improve on and will need to improve on.

Grant was hired March 30th. McKinley Wright decommits. He gets a commitment from Crutcher on May 9th. Basically a month on the job. He was probably still living at the UD Marriott making phone calls with paperwork spread all over the bed.
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
Cable TV go off much during those storms up in Minnesota?
Nope, are you saying he has a high shooting % on floaters?

I'm thrilled with Crutcher and he has shown tremendous growth his freshman year. Doesn't mean he doesn't have opportunities. All players do. One of his biggest opportunities is his floater. So I found it odd that someone thought he had "perfected" it.
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Old 02-11-2018, 05:37 PM
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Old 02-11-2018, 05:41 PM
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What sorts of other useful info is there
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Old 02-11-2018, 06:50 PM
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Maybe I should not have used the word perfected since you obviously don't get the gist and take it out of context. The floater is a big part of his arsenal and he is very comfortable with it and makes quite a few of them compared to the amount that he shoots that particular shot. He would tell you the same thing.
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Old 02-11-2018, 06:57 PM
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He has upside.
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Old 02-11-2018, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
Maybe I should not have used the word perfected since you obviously don't get the gist and take it out of context. The floater is a big part of his arsenal and he is very comfortable with it and makes quite a few of them compared to the amount that he shoots that particular shot. He would tell you the same thing.
We can agree to disagree, I guess. My point is that the floater is probably the weakest part of his offensive game, in my opinion.
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Old 02-11-2018, 10:19 PM
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My new nickname for Jalen is the Crusher or just Crusher.
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  #91  
Old 02-12-2018, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
I made the initial post and am much more bullish on Crutcher now a month+ later.
What I noticed that really can't be quantified is that his passes are crisp and his dribble is more guarded. Which contributes greatly to the awesome improvement in fewer turnovers. Early in the season he floated passes, tried to split defenders on the dribble, and generally did not have D1 ball handling technique. Had his pocket picked numerous times. He now respects the defensive hands of his opponent.
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  #92  
Old 02-12-2018, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by UDBaby View Post
Thanks. Solid info.

Its gonna take the freshman a little while to adjust to this level of play, especially when they are being asked to take over a much larger role than anyone, them included, ever anticipated.

The game will slow down for them (Crutch, JDavis) eventually and they'll be more confident about dictating the flow of the offense rather than settling for what the D gives them, but its gonna take time.

And, I don't mind saying that seeing a Crutcher thread after the UMass game was pretty **** surprising IMO. Of all the Flyers on the court Saturday, he and Cunningham were the only bright...well dim...spots on the team. The rest of the gang is way, way more responsible for the soiled sheets.

And, I disagree about Crutcher's future as a PG. I think he's gonna be a fine player and will continue to grow into the position. His shot needs work, but he's got the skills to play the point.
Sorry, couldn't help myself but gotta feel good about something on a dreary Monday a.m. (is there an auto-red-pip-penalty for bumping your own post? If so, lay em' on.)

I'm not a scout and not clairvoyant, but I do like how Crutcher is gaining confidence and maturity in taking over the pressure-packed position of PG for the Flyers, and I think there were signs early on that he would grow and flourish in the role as the season rolled along.

Not gonna break my arm patting myself on the back, especially in the midst of such a pizz-poor season, but Crutcher and Davis give me a lot of hope for a much better Flyer squad next season...
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  #93  
Old 02-12-2018, 12:25 PM
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The critiques on this thread make me giggle.

Without Crutcher, our record would probably be 7-17 at best. If he didn't commit until late, Crosby would be getting those monster minutes. Just let that soak in....
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  #94  
Old 02-12-2018, 12:41 PM
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Great last comment Buster! What is fascinating to me is how someone's talent can fall off from Fresh to soph, from soph to Junior.

Is it lack of minutes, is it lack of preseason conditioning and skill work?
Are the other teams players/competition just growing at a faster rate?
ATtention to details?

It's simply crazy to me what is happening with X and with Crosby at a D1 level traditionally Top 50 School (past 10 years roughly) that they aren't progressing.
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Old 02-12-2018, 02:41 PM
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In Crutcher's last 11 games (starting with the home win vs. SBU)

13.2 PPG
3.6 RPG
5.9 APG
51.5 FG%
43.1 3PT%

Are those good for a True Frosh? lol
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Old 02-12-2018, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyer 86 View Post
Great last comment Buster! What is fascinating to me is how someone's talent can fall off from Fresh to soph, from soph to Junior.

Is it lack of minutes, is it lack of preseason conditioning and skill work?
Are the other teams players/competition just growing at a faster rate?
ATtention to details?

It's simply crazy to me what is happening with X and with Crosby at a D1 level traditionally Top 50 School (past 10 years roughly) that they aren't progressing.
It's been said often and elsewhere, both players had the best practice competition and examples of attention to detail for 2+ years. AG is a different voice, but I doubt his demand for work ethic is any different that that of AM or the class of 2017.
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