Kaleb Washington?

[steverino015]

Originally Posted by maddog07 So the majority of big time players are African American kids 18-22 from the inner city. What percent of that group do you think uses weed? Posted via Mobile Device

I would guess the same percent
as all 18 - 22 year olds, regardless
of ethnicity or where they reside..

[The Gem]

Originally Posted by MrFlyerFanatic Spent 6 nights in the Bahamas last month. Smelled weed once. Went to a local establishment for a beverage the evening that I got home. Within 20 minutes of sitting down, a person sat next to me reeking of bad weed. Only smelled it once while in Chicago. In the summer, I couldn't go for a 2 mile run without smelling weed coming from a passing car. It's pervasive in the Dayton area.

I spent a week in Chicago for vacation in 2021, and then went back for a Reds/Sox game a few weeks later. I smelled it on the streets often. Part of trip I visited one of my former housemates from my UD days. He was a very occasional smoker, and his wife never touched it. They have a daughter who is about 10. I asked them how they felt about the smell being rather prevalent. They both shrugged their shoulders and said that as long as nobody is blowing it in their daughter's face, they don't really worry about it.
I do smell it in Dayton too, but less. What both towns have in common is weed is either totally legal or medically legal. Dayton has decriminalized it. The trend of legalization I don't think is going to slow down. Smelling will be the same as smelling cigarette smoke is now. We may not all like it, but we can't really control others behavior.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan Yea Dude, you see we um....uh......got any Doritos?

Hilarious!

[maddog07]

Originally Posted by steverino015 I would guess the same percent as all 18 - 22 year olds, regardless of ethnicity or where they reside..

I think it’s higher ( no pun intended) and it’s in the 90 percent range. If the coach has a no pot policy, he’s doomed to failure.
Posted via Mobile Device

[rollo]

Where's the Off-Topic police when you need them?

[Hyde Park Flyer]

44% of college students reported using/smoking pot in 2020. It turns out that the racial gap in pit usage is not significant. Stereotypes are dangerous. The gender gap in usage is more significant than race.
Posted via Mobile Device

[ud2]

The marijuana issue aside from the legality issue of it is IMO about letting your teammates, the coaches, the fans, and the program down. Sounds like there were warnings, the warnings were ignored. He was an AG recruit, AG has to take some of the hit on this. But rollo ignores this while complaining about every Archie issue.

As far as AM is concerned, there was the burglary incident at the dorm(s) and the incident with Sam Miller. I do not feel comfortable casting judgment about the Pierre incident.

So, two issues over six years, yet posters want to act like Archie was running some sort of renegade program.

I think the real issue is that some posters felt very disrespected by how Archie viewed the program, and also they felt disrespected by Archie leaving. So now they are denigrating him in every way possible and saying that he ran a rogue program rather than being more objective about the incidents that occurred and accepting the fact that Archie used us as a stepping stone. Not every coach wants to be in the A10 for the rest of his career. I am just not buying all the criticism that Archie was running a rogue program. I think rollo has overreacted to many of the incidents.

[N2663R]

Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer 44% of college students reported using/smoking pot in 2020. It turns out that the racial gap in pit usage is not significant. Stereotypes are dangerous. The gender gap in usage is more significant than race. Posted via Mobile Device

The other 56% were high when they took the survey and didn't understand the question . . .

[superfan99]

Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer 44% of college students reported using/smoking pot in 2020. It turns out that the racial gap in pit usage is not significant. Stereotypes are dangerous. The gender gap in usage is more significant than race. Posted via Mobile Device

And most of the other 56% lied.

*Whoops..N2663R beat me too it. lol

[ud2]

Originally Posted by rollo Can you legally smoke dope at work? or are there policies against that? Just wondering how that works in your world. Try it tomorrow and let me know how that 'but it is legal' argument works. Can you define and compare the player's 'trouble' between the 2 coaches?? Refs call what they seem not what you see. So yeah, I believe they never ever make mistakes. A different angle might show you something they didn't/couldn't/wouldn't/shouldn't see, but how can you call that a mistake? Side note: Losing credibility with you is a virtuous compliment, therefore I humbly accept it. FYI....these questions are rhetorical. Please don't insult my intelligence with another comment or I may have to revisit the OTG threads for some sanity.

No, I can not smoke dope at work, I would be asked to stop, and I suppose the police might be called if I refused to stop.

Between the two coaches, see my previous post.

The reffing issue: you are saying that refs never make a bad call, yet make-up calls happen all the time. Agree to disagree. I think you are WAY off on this, refs are human, mistakes happen, I have no idea how you can not admit that. The refs get it right 95%? of the time IMO.

I am not following what you mean by these being rhetorical questions. Please explain.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by ud2 I am not following what you mean by these being rhetorical questions. Please explain.

I was politely telling you to STFU.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by shocka43 You had carryover from a previous AD. UD was at a crossroads and needed to win... no matter what. Big money had enough and the average UD had enough regarding the BG Era. The big play was to turn an even bigger blind eye compared to the indiscretions during the BG Era. There is plenty in the archives regarding the conduct and many things noted from inside the program that never hit the news. This info during that era came directly from inside the program as the staff then had no control on their own people from spreading news. Combine that with the conduct of his wife... that sums up what control UD actually had. As long as they were winning they didn't care.

Not buying any of this. You guys didn't like Archie because you felt disrespected by him, now you are denigrating him in every way possible.

Things happen under every coach, no program is perfect. Sounds like AG runs a tighter ship. Still can't help but think your guys dislike of Archie is causing some overreacting. Rollo is completely ignoring the Washington issue, no credibility there with rollo.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by rollo I was politely telling you to STFU.

Ok, so no response from you to any of my points then. If it doesn't fit your narrative, or your views are challenged, then you just ignore it and refuse to respond.

[The Gem]

Originally Posted by ud2 The marijuana issue aside from the legality issue of it is IMO about letting your teammates, the coaches, the fans, and the program down. Sounds like there were warnings, the warnings were ignored. He was an AG recruit, AG has to take some of the hit on this. But rollo ignores this while complaining about every Archie issue. As far as AM is concerned, there was the burglary incident at the dorm(s) and the incident with Sam Miller. I do not feel comfortable casting judgment about the Pierre incident. So, two issues over six years, yet posters want to act like Archie was running some sort of renegade program. I think the real issue is that some posters felt very disrespected by how Archie viewed the program, and also they felt disrespected by Archie leaving. So now they are denigrating him in every way possible and saying that he ran a rogue program rather than being more objective about the incidents that occurred and accepting the fact that Archie used us as a stepping stone. Not every coach wants to be in the A10 for the rest of his career. I am just not buying all the criticism that Archie was running a rogue program. I think rollo has overreacted to many of the incidents.

I am kind of surprised by all the shade thrown at Archie. In my lifetime, that is the only time there has been sustained success. Stuff went on during the BG years. Remeber London's Warren's friend he met on Times Square? These guys are young and they are going to do dumb things. Looking back at my young man days, it's not that hard to pull the wool over an authority figure's eyes.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by ud2 Not buying any of this. You guys didn't like Archie because you felt disrespected by him, now you are denigrating him in every way possible. Things happen under every coach, no program is perfect. Sounds like AG runs a tighter ship. Still can't help but think your guys dislike of Archie is causing some overreacting. Rollo is completely ignoring the Washington issue, no credibility there with rollo.

There is a HUGE difference between 'having things happen' and recruiting kids with known issues that then manifest in the program. There is an even bigger issue when 'having things happen' and the coach dealing with them vs. the coach turning a blind eye to them for the sake of success. It's not rocket science.

[SeasonTicketFan]

Blind eye is a subjective term. As long as I remember, UD handled almost all incidents quietly and internally. I know there were incidents for about every coach. It does not mean that they looked the other way completely. Players are often held to a higher standard and face discipline more than the average college population. And sometimes, players would get a break because they were an athlete.

We can speculate, but coaches would often implement their own internal discipline.

[CT Flyer]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer There is a HUGE difference between 'having things happen' and recruiting kids with known issues that then manifest in the program.

I agree with this, but can you tell me if there were known issues with Robinson, Scott and Miller. I honestly don't recall.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer There is a HUGE difference between 'having things happen' and recruiting kids with known issues that then manifest in the program. There is an even bigger issue when 'having things happen' and the coach dealing with them vs. the coach turning a blind eye to them for the sake of success. It's not rocket science.

Not following any of this. Who was recruited with prior issues? Who ignored things? Archie dealt with the two incidents I mentioned.

[jack72]

Originally Posted by ud2 The reffing issue: you are saying that refs never make a bad call, yet make-up calls happen all the time.

How in the world do you know this? Did you ref? I did for five years. No one ever said they made a make-up call. Do they happen? Maybe, maybe almost never.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by jack72 How in the world do you know this? Did you ref? I did for five years. No one ever said they made a make-up call. Do they happen? Maybe, maybe almost never.

https://www.wishtv.com/news/indianap...iciating-call/:


Bo Boroski, one of the top-rated refs on Kenpom, and who also called the NCAAT title game, admits that he makes 4 to 7 mistakes PER GAME...

“10/10 coaches would agree that consistency is the most important part of what we do. So if you can get through a game with between four to seven mistakes, you’ve done a pretty good job,” said Boroski.

[jack72]

Originally Posted by ud2 https://www.wishtv.com/news/indianap...iciating-call/: Bo Boroski, one of the top-rated refs on Kenpom, and who also called the NCAAT title game, admits that he makes 4 to 7 mistakes PER GAME... “10/10 coaches would agree that consistency is the most important part of what we do. So if you can get through a game with between four to seven mistakes, you’ve done a pretty good job,” said Boroski.

Why are you responding to my statement on make-up calls by changing the subject?

[N2663R]

Originally Posted by rollo Where's the Off-Topic police when you need them?

Please arrest me . . . Since this thread is about Kaleb Washington, I have a question. How and when did Larry Conner start supporting UD Athletics? Was it due to UD allowing his son to be a part of the program?? Anybody know the back story?

[ud2]

Originally Posted by jack72 Why are you responding to my statement on make-up calls by changing the subject?

Read the below link, there is a lot of data supporting the make-up call accusation.

https://sports.yahoo.com/do-makeup-c...131350055.html:

The origins of refereeing’s most infamous but elusive concept are murky. The perception, though, wasn’t baseless. When Larry Pedowitz, a former federal prosecutor, spent 14 months investigating the NBA’s officials, he heard in interviews that, prior to 2003, “if a referee recognized that he or his crew had made an incorrect call, a referee might whistle a ‘make-up’ call soon thereafter.”


Hockey ref admits to making make-up calls:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/sports....1386--nhl.html:

While it is highly unlikely that a Referee would "invent" an infraction, the hard truth is that while every Referee's attempted objective is to maintain a "consistent" standard, he might alter that standard to grab a quick penalty with an eye toward fairness. If that meets your definition of an "even-up" call to compensate for an obvious mistake that has been made then so be it.

I can tell you there were many times I felt my stomach in knots after being fooled on a play or calling a marginal infraction. A two minute power play seemed like an eternity when the other team pressed hard and there was absolutely nothing I could do to make it right. That means that I would not compromise the game further by "inventing" a penalty against the team on the tainted power play. If, on the other hand a 'gift horse' presented itself in the form of some infraction that could be deemed an illegal advantage gained by the team on the power play I was quick to grab it; perhaps a pick, interference or anything of the sort. If a team killed the penalty I would breathe a sigh of relief—if a power play goal was scored I gulped as the air escaped my lungs hoping my error would not affect the final outcome of the game. That is all part of being human.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by CT Flyer I agree with this, but can you tell me if there were known issues with Robinson, Scott and Miller. I honestly don't recall.

UC backed off of Scott in HS because of character* issues. When Bob Huggins says there are character issues, it has nothing to do with missing study tables.

Any other answers you need to know are in the historical archives. Use the 'SEARCH' forum on the left column.

[steverino015]

Has Kaleb announced any decision when it comes
to the transfer portal, yes or no?
maybe after the Christmas vacation, some time
around there...
is it a given do we think?

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by steverino015 Has Kaleb announced any decision when it comes to the transfer portal, yes or no? maybe after the Christmas vacation, some time around there... is it a given do we think?

He's in the portal and gone from the Flyers.

[longtimefan]

As far as the Princess saying refs don't make mistakes, they just call what they see, how about a call that was made a couple games ago. One ref called blocking. Another ref called charging. They got together at the top of the key and argued over it for about a minute. They couldn't come to a decision, so they called a DOUBLE FOUL! Tell me that was not BS.

[rollo]

I’ve officiated plenty of games where an offensive player fouled a defensive player at the same time the defensive player fouled the offensive player.
Just because the uninformed, uneducated, inexperienced and naive casual basketball fan thinks that is BS doesn’t mean it is. It’s one of the many topics that real refs cover, discuss, strategize for and anticipate (rarely) in pregame discussions and preseason meetings. To deny that a double-foul can be called on a ‘blarge’ is denying reality. Two professionals seeing the same play from different angles quite obviously will give each a different perspective. Just like multiple replays of an NFL ‘catch’ will show whether it was/wasn’t.

For the record, I’ve never made the wrong call…unless you count that one time I dialed 911 by accident.
Posted via Mobile Device

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by rollo UC backed off of Scott in HS because of character* issues. When Bob Huggins says there are character issues, it has nothing to do with missing study tables. Any other answers you need to know are in the historical archives. Use the 'SEARCH' forum on the left column.

Bob Huggins left UC in 2005. Devon Scott would have been 11. Crazy that Huggins saw character issues that far ahead as UC coach.

[rollo]

WVU…UC…no difference
Posted via Mobile Device

[SeasonTicketFan]

I know of at least one player (maybe more) that BG recruited and was passed over by other schools due to character issues. And this player had incidents, the vast majority never made public. And I am not talking London.....

Some players are very immature and some of them mature. I would assure that almost every college program has taken a chance on a recruit with issues.

To make some coaches saints and others not saints is unrealistic. Does not mean it is right. Each coach must wrestle with character issues.

My experience is that many, many athletes are far from choir boys.

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

Originally Posted by rollo WVU…UC…no difference Posted via Mobile Device

Wait, the referee made a mistake? First time for everything, right?

Speaking of first times, Lets all smoke one and be happy!

[rollo]

I’ve made the occasional mistake, but it’s always off the court.
Posted via Mobile Device

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by ud2 Not buying any of this. You guys didn't like Archie because you felt disrespected by him, now you are denigrating him in every way possible. Things happen under every coach, no program is perfect. Sounds like AG runs a tighter ship. Still can't help but think your guys dislike of Archie is causing some overreacting. Rollo is completely ignoring the Washington issue, no credibility there with rollo.

Do your homework on the threads my friend. When your info was coming from the locker room you'd believe it.

[UDEE79]

Originally Posted by ud2 ...There is no continuity from coach to coach.

That's the difference between us and Xavier.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[IndianaFlyer]

Every referee misses calls. It’s the human aspect of the profession. What good referees don’t do is whistle make-up calls. In my 35+ years of referring high school varsity basketball, I certainly missed the occasional call. But if I missed the call, I missed it. Good officials put it behind them and move on. Officials who work at the state tournament level are evaluated a minimum of twice a season. It is bad enough to miss a call in front of an evaluator, it grades out really bad if you intentionally blow another call trying to make up for the first missed call. Good tournament level officials just don’t do it.

And to address the game at the arena when one referee called a block and one called an offensive foul, that is no indication either of them missed the call. Two officials with two different angles on the floor. They handled it by the book. They met, both held strong to the fact they each saw a foul, one against one team the other saw a foul against the other team. Double foul, move on.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by UDEE79 That's the difference between us and Xavier.

Does continuity mean we have to bring back BG so we can be like X?
Posted via Mobile Device

[Hyde Park Flyer]

I know a former di football ref. He reffed games with ranked teams. If he missed a call, he owned it. Make up calls weren’t the way to handle it. He tells funny/interesting stories about how coaches would try to help him ref. He didn’t want to do anything that would reward a coach’s behavior. Period.
Posted via Mobile Device

[ud2]

Originally Posted by shocka43 Do your homework on the threads my friend. When your info was coming from the locker room you'd believe it.

We are just going round and round. I did my homework, I don't recall anything that went public and was very objectionable beyond the two incidents that I mentioned. I can't comment on hearsay like your post without more details, I was never in the locker room.

I don't like how super rollo is giving Grant a free pass on this. Had this been one of Archie's guys, I bet super rollo would have made some negative comments about Archie. I think super rollo has an anti-Archie agenda, I think his silence has damaged his credibility, and I have a hard time believing what he says on these topics.

[rollo]

There’s a difference between missing a call and making the wrong call. Everyone who puts on the stripes will miss calls because we can see everything simultaneously. I’ve repeatedly said I can only call what I see. And everything I saw, I called exactly as seen.
Posted via Mobile Device

[springborofan]

Originally Posted by UDEE79 That's the difference between us and Xavier.

Yea….AM’s coaches were in such great demand! Not one of them is now a head coach anywhere. It’s been six years. If they were that good you would think a school like Eastern KY would have jumped at the chance to bring in one of AM’s protégés. In fact, one coach had to accept a job at Wayne HS just to stay in coaching.

Yet, UD2 and you want me to believe Sullivan made a mistake by hiring a seasoned HC with UD roots instead?

Some on the board are disappointed with the results so far. Fair enough. I’d argue there have been some extenuating circumstances like the cupboard was very empty when AG arrived, there was a global pandemic, and the injuries this year are abnormal. Some want to call that excuse making, I prefer the term reality.

Even knowing where this program is today, it was not a mistake to hire AG over an unproven (and still unproven six years later) assistant coach only for the sake of “continuity”. I guarantee that McKinley Wright wasn’t staying at UD without AM. Those guys don’t bring in Crutcher or Toppin. We would have been left with John “high dribble” Crosby and Xerius “I’m the next coming of Kevin Durant” Williams. That was a disaster waiting to happen and that is one of the reasons AM found the best job he could after that senior class left.

[Hyde Park Flyer]

Originally Posted by rollo There’s a difference between missing a call and making the wrong call. Everyone who puts on the stripes will miss calls because we can see everything simultaneously. I’ve repeatedly said I can only call what I see. And everything I saw, I called exactly as seen. Posted via Mobile Device

That was my football ref friend’s perspective. He regularly told coaches that he could not call what he did not see.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Hyde Park Flyer]

Do people understand that a message board is NOT a court of law. Hearsay has limited admissibility in court (yes, hearsay is allowed at times). We can freely accept hearsay on a message board. In court, you have to provide the evidence to prove your point. Your evidence must be subject to cross examination. These rules are layer out the the Rules of Criminal Procedure and the Rules for Civil Procedure (different jurisdictions can have slightly different language). We don’t have these rules on message boards. A Court can force a party to reveal their sources so that they can be cross examined. We don’t have to identify sources on message boards. This all should seem obvious but is apparently lost on many.

Of course, you can believe whatever you want to believe. If you don’t want to believe that some posters have inside information, fine. But, do you really think that someone is going to suddenly identify everything they know after your 69th request? If they don’t identify the sources and full info, do you think it’s all false? I just don’t understand this perspective. Is it really that hard to believe that there are others with contacts inside the building? No one is asking you to make the most critical life decisions based on these types of insider info. Again, believe what you want. But maybe…just maybe…we can move past the “post your source” type comments.

As an example, I posted something recently about players needing more swagger and some trash talking. Some posters mentioned what they had heard. Would it really be constructive to needle people about their source? Aren’t there just times when we’re just trading in information? Don’t we just accept that the information provided on a message board is less reliable than a court room?
Posted via Mobile Device

[NJFlyr71]

So gathering the 'evidence' cited from this thread (we should ignore any thing related to K Washington as per UDPride this thread officially went off the rails a while ago ).

1 We should select MBB players only IF they can certify that they were 'alter boys' (not meaning the local school) at some point in their up-bringing.

2 Ref's must have 20-20 vision (including revisionist capability).

3 Archie and 'his boys' were BAAAAD. (see item 1 above)

4 Grant's guys are 'good'. ( again see item 1 above)

5 Some of us on this board are unwavering in their support or distain for either Miller or Grant. (take your pick)

6 There are posters that are all knowing and some who are in the dark about what does or does not go on behind closed locker room doors.

7 And we really really do not know if the Christ Child was actually born on December 25. But we tend to celebrate that date anyway (or at least some religous sects do).

8 And I've gotten presents on the 25th of Dec my whole life so I ain't gonna argue with the date staring now!

Merry Christmas Flyers!

[rollo]

Originally Posted by ud2 Ok, so no response from you to any of my points then. If it doesn't fit your narrative, or your views are challenged, then you just ignore it and refuse to respond.

Produce a mugshot of Washington and I’ll ride Grant’s rear end for covering up his crimes.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Hyde Park Flyer]

Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 So gathering the 'evidence' cited from this thread (we should ignore any thing related to K Washington as per UDPride this thread officially went off the rails a while ago ). 1 We should select MBB players only IF they can certify that they were 'alter boys' (not meaning the local school) at some point in their up-bringing. 2 Ref's must have 20-20 vision (including revisionist capability). 3 Archie and 'his boys' were BAAAAD. (see item 1 above) 4 Grant's guys are 'good'. ( again see item 1 above) 5 Some of us on this board are unwavering in their support or distain for either Miller or Grant. (take your pick) 6 There are posters that are all knowing and some who are in the dark about what does or does not go on behind closed locker room doors. 7 And we really really do not know if the Christ Child was actually born on December 25. But we tend to celebrate that date anyway (or at least some religous sects do). 8 And I've gotten presents on the 25th of Dec my whole life so I ain't gonna argue with the date staring now! Merry Christmas Flyers!

I think you nailed it!
Posted via Mobile Device

[Glen Clark]

So . . . Kaleb Washington is transferring to . . . be an official?
I hope he doesn't call a UD game - talk about makeup calls!

_____________________
Whether your glass is half full or half empty, you still have more to drink

[UDEE79]

Originally Posted by springborofan Yea….AM’s coaches were in such great demand! Not one of them is now a head coach anywhere. It’s been six years. If they were that good you would think a school like Eastern KY would have jumped at the chance to bring in one of AM’s protégés. In fact, one coach had to accept a job at Wayne HS just to stay in coaching. Yet, UD2 and you want me to believe Sullivan made a mistake by hiring a seasoned HC with UD roots instead? Some on the board are disappointed with the results so far. Fair enough. I’d argue there have been some extenuating circumstances like the cupboard was very empty when AG arrived, there was a global pandemic, and the injuries this year are abnormal. Some want to call that excuse making, I prefer the term reality. Even knowing where this program is today, it was not a mistake to hire AG over an unproven (and still unproven six years later) assistant coach only for the sake of “continuity”. I guarantee that McKinley Wright wasn’t staying at UD without AM. Those guys don’t bring in Crutcher or Toppin. We would have been left with John “high dribble” Crosby and Xerius “I’m the next coming of Kevin Durant” Williams. That was a disaster waiting to happen and that is one of the reasons AM found the best job he could after that senior class left.

I don’t think we should fire grant at all and I don’t think we made a mistake in hiring him. I was merely noting that Xavier had a long run of hiring assistant coaches and not skipping a beat. While we never hire our own assistant coached and we always have a 2 or 3 year down period with our new coach. It’s just a difference between Xavier and UD programs that I was noting. UD assistants maybe weren’t good candidates for the head coaching job but it’s still a big difference between our two programs.
Posted via Mobile Device

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[frisco flyer]

Originally Posted by UDEE79 I don’t think we should fire grant at all and I don’t think we made a mistake in hiring him. I was merely noting that Xavier had a long run of hiring assistant coaches and not skipping a beat. While we never hire our own assistant coached and we always have a 2 or 3 year down period with our new coach. It’s just a difference between Xavier and UD programs that I was noting. UD assistants maybe weren’t good candidates for the head coaching job but it’s still a big difference between our two programs. Posted via Mobile Device

Didn’t Xavier just fire their last coach?
And didn’t they just hire a cheater of a coach in Sean Miller who left AZ with his tail between his legs?

I would be disappointed if Our administration uses Xavier as the standard for success at UD. We can do so much better.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by springborofan Yea….AM’s coaches were in such great demand! Not one of them is now a head coach anywhere. It’s been six years. If they were that good you would think a school like Eastern KY would have jumped at the chance to bring in one of AM’s protégés. In fact, one coach had to accept a job at Wayne HS just to stay in coaching. Yet, UD2 and you want me to believe Sullivan made a mistake by hiring a seasoned HC with UD roots instead? Some on the board are disappointed with the results so far. Fair enough. I’d argue there have been some extenuating circumstances like the cupboard was very empty when AG arrived, there was a global pandemic, and the injuries this year are abnormal. Some want to call that excuse making, I prefer the term reality. Even knowing where this program is today, it was not a mistake to hire AG over an unproven (and still unproven six years later) assistant coach only for the sake of “continuity”. I guarantee that McKinley Wright wasn’t staying at UD without AM. Those guys don’t bring in Crutcher or Toppin. We would have been left with John “high dribble” Crosby and Xerius “I’m the next coming of Kevin Durant” Williams. That was a disaster waiting to happen and that is one of the reasons AM found the best job he could after that senior class left.

All of the Xavier, Butler, and VCU coaches were total nobodies with little to no head coaching experience when they got the head coaching job at Xavier, Butler, or VCU. Sometimes in life you just have to say f*ck it and take a risk. We are a non-p5, stepping stone school, like it or not. There is NEVER going to be an absolutely ideal, perfect candidate to coach the Flyers.

Whether you want to admit it or not, hiring Grant was also a big risk. There was definitely a red flag that we made the calculated decision to ignore: he did poorly at Alabama and was fired. We definitely took a risk hiring Grant.

The advantage of hiring in-house is that you are already intimately familiar with who you are hiring. It is also highly likely that that coach will not be making major changes to the whole system: the offense, the defense, the transition/fast break game, the recruiting strategy, the discipline structure, how to relate to and interact with the fans, alumni, administration, donors, press, etc. Often times the goal is to disrupt things as little as possible and just try to keep a good thing going while making some minor changes of your own and gradually implementing over a much longer time frame any major changes that you want to make.

Also, you are more able to retain incoming recruits due to the recruits already being familiar with the coach and his staff/assistant coaches if the coach chooses to retain some of the existing staff/assistant coaches.

Also, there is a good chance that the new coach will be able to retain some/all of the existing staff/assistant coaches due to familiarity.

Again, all of the X, Butler, and VCU coaches were total nobodies when they took over, none of those guys was on the verge of landing some big p5 job.

X, Butler, and VCU have almost entirely kept things in-house over the last 20-30 years, and all 3 have grossly outperformed us.

Keeping things in-house increases the odds greatly IMO of a smooth transition. Everything is already set up and humming smoothly. If it ain't broke, then don't fix it! Don't mess with it! Leave it alone!

Don't mess with success!!!

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by frisco flyer Didn’t Xavier just fire their last coach? And didn’t they just hire a cheater of a coach in Sean Miller who left AZ with his tail between his legs? I would be disappointed if Our administration uses Xavier as the standard for success at UD. We can do so much better.

Dude, what in the world are you smoking? Xavier has run circles around us for almost all of the last 35 years since the early to mid 1980's.

What planet are you living on?

I haven't kept up with the news on Sean Miller, but he was just cleared by some investigatory committee iinm regarding whatever happened at Arizona.

Yes, they missed on one coach who was 1/4 there making the ncaat, that is hardly a huge miss. They hit on every other one of their coaches since the early to mid 1980's.

Regarding Steele being 1/4, they likely would have made the ncaat during the covid year.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[jack72]

Originally Posted by ud2 Dude, what in the world are you smoking? Xavier has run circles around us for almost all of the last 35 years since the early to mid 1980's. What planet are you living on? I haven't kept up with the news on Sean Miller, but he was just cleared by some investigatory committee iinm regarding whatever happened at Arizona. Yes, they missed on one coach who was 1/4 there making the ncaat, that is hardly a huge miss. They hit on every other one of their coaches since the early to mid 1980's. Regarding Steele being 1/4, they likely would have made the ncaat during the covid year.

Pretty abusive language to a guy who just stated some true facts. Reread his post. Don't give me the Sean was cleared stuff. You know the NCAA is weak.

Looking at a different angle, both teams have had multiple coaches, and yet X has won. So probably not the coach, and more the players they were able to get. No doubt they have recruited better players over those 35 years.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by jack72 Pretty abusive language to a guy who just stated some true facts. Reread his post. Don't give me the Sean was cleared stuff. You know the NCAA is weak. Looking at a different angle, both teams have had multiple coaches, and yet X has won. So probably not the coach, and more the players they were able to get. No doubt they have recruited better players over those 35 years.

Pretty abusive? Yeah, fine, fair enough.

So to frisco, I apologize if my post was abusive.

I am just very frustrated at the whole dynamic. We had almost every advantage over Xavier, but they won the war, at least up to this point.

I haven't kept up with the Sean thing, I have no idea what happened. Much of this stuff is always so murky. Unless there is a smoking gun that goes public, it always seems to be sort of he said/she said.

Just once I would like to see us go back to the Blackburn/Donoher model. It might not be a coincidence that our most successful stretches were built on keeping things in the family regarding a coaching transition.

Every coach after Donoher was an outsider relative to the previous coaching staff, and we have never transitioned well, not even once have we had a smooth, successful transition post-Donoher.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by ud2 Pretty abusive? Yeah, fine, fair enough. So to frisco, I apologize if my post was abusive. I am just very frustrated at the whole dynamic. We had almost every advantage over Xavier, but they won the war, at least up to this point. I haven't kept up with the Sean thing, I have no idea what happened. Much of this stuff is always so murky. Unless there is a smoking gun that goes public, it always seems to be sort of he said/she said. Just once I would like to see us go back to the Blackburn/Donoher model. It might not be a coincidence that our most successful stretches were built on keeping things in the family regarding a coaching transition. Every coach after Donoher was an outsider relative to the previous coaching staff, and we have never transitioned well, not even once have we had a smooth, successful transition post-Donoher.

Isn’t Grant a return to the Donoher model? I’ll take continuity with a UD guy over the assistant crap shoot any day.
Posted via Mobile Device

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[The Gem]

A couple of things to keep in mind when comparing UD's coaching changes to VCU's and _avier's. First of all, let's not forget who one of those nobody assistants was and how when BG's teams underachieved in A-10 play yet again and UD made the NIT yet again, many on this board were upset we didn't hire Grant back then.
As for _avier I have a friend who was a team manager in the Prosser era and has remained close to the program. He has always told me that _avier has a certain philosophy about their MBB program and that it's bigger than any coach, AD, or player. They look for people who fit the mold. They are always grooming an assistant coach. I don't know that UD has that same notion. UD has started over from scratch every time there is a change in coaches since Donoher took over for Blackburn nearly 60 years ago. I remember there was talk of hiring one of Purnell's assistants, but we went with BG instead. I feel like one of BG's guys was in the running for the job when he left, but we went with Archie instead. Honestly, one of my gripes with BG was the constant churn of assistants. It seemed like we had a whole new assistant staff every year. I seem to remember Kevin Kuwick was considered when Archie left, but we went with Grant instead. It would seem that UD's model is to start from scratch and try something new. We have not achieved the level of success doing this that we all want. In the NIL/portal era it is an even rougher transition. Perhaps the promote from within method should be given more thought. So Ricardo Greer seems like the guy if Grant left. If Greer leaves first then a top priority is getting someone lined up and ready to step into the head coach job.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[FlyerinChicago]

I’m imaging Kaleb reading this and saying, wtf????
Posted via Mobile Device

[N2663R]

Originally Posted by ud2 I am just very frustrated at the whole dynamic. We had almost every advantage over Xavier, but they won the war, at least up to this point.

I think every Flyer fan over the age of 60? has an increased level of frustration. We lived through the glory years of Flyer basketball in person, we witnessed great basketball played by some of the greatest players of the day coached by a couple of great coaches in their era. I can close my eyes and still see Bobby Joe Hooper, Donny May, Glender Torain, et. al. leading the Flyers against all comers in a smoke filled field house to this day . . . Just like it happened yesterday.
As for your Zavier comment, I’m going to give you a pass on that one. But for future reference, just remember, we may have lost some of the recent battles, but God Da**it, we have not lost the war! We still own them 84-75! Now, go say 5 Hail Mary’s and promise never to sin like that again.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by frisco flyer Didn’t Xavier just fire their last coach? And didn’t they just hire a cheater of a coach in Sean Miller who left AZ with his tail between his legs? I would be disappointed if Our administration uses Xavier as the standard for success at UD. We can do so much better.

So, X hiring Sean Miller BACK to X...Keep in mind that Sean was the first of the Miller brothers to proclaim the ridiculousness "first school allegiance" about "creating winning traditions" when he was at X - just before leaving to a melomaniac of a financial deal at Arizona. So naturally when little brother Archie stated the same things at Dayton, I sensed a sort of shall we say "BS Deja Vu" when I heard Arch say it - my rightful disdain for AM; but...I digress...

Hiring Sean Miller BACK to X after all that went down there is a little like:

- Your wife leaving you for another man AFTER you gave her a 3 carat diamond ring for a 10 year anniversary gift and she said she'd love you forever. Then, after divorcing you for the other guy, she proceeds to ruin HIS life by getting him into all kinds of legal fraud problems while running HIS business, then after 2nd husband divorces her and pays all kind of restitution to keep his name and reputation...then the X-wife (pun intended), COMES back to you saying "I've always loved you, gimme a 2nd chance"...and like an idiot, you do it because you think somehow, she'll make you look like a winner. And that's all either of you care about. And you both deserve each other.

This is how an X fan and the X administration should feel right now, (but they don't). If Dayton ever does this with AM, I'll easily lose 30 pounds that first month from daily vomiting every day that month.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[CJ2etc]

The FBI had Sean on tape telling a middle man he authorized the bribe to a top recruit that ended up committing to Arizona but was released after it all came out. It was as dirty, disgusting and red handed as it could be. No idea how he wasn't prosecuted or banned. I'll take AG over any Millers every day. Many of my X fan friends aren't very happy w the hire either

[springborofan]

Originally Posted by ud2 All of the Xavier, Butler, and VCU coaches were total nobodies with little to no head coaching experience when they got the head coaching job at Xavier, Butler, or VCU. Sometimes in life you just have to say f*ck it and take a risk. We are a non-p5, stepping stone school, like it or not. There is NEVER going to be an absolutely ideal, perfect candidate to coach the Flyers. Whether you want to admit it or not, hiring Grant was also a big risk. There was definitely a red flag that we made the calculated decision to ignore: he did poorly at Alabama and was fired. We definitely took a risk hiring Grant. The advantage of hiring in-house is that you are already intimately familiar with who you are hiring. It is also highly likely that that coach will not be making major changes to the whole system: the offense, the defense, the transition/fast break game, the recruiting strategy, the discipline structure, how to relate to and interact with the fans, alumni, administration, donors, press, etc. Often times the goal is to disrupt things as little as possible and just try to keep a good thing going while making some minor changes of your own and gradually implementing over a much longer time frame any major changes that you want to make. Also, you are more able to retain incoming recruits due to the recruits already being familiar with the coach and his staff/assistant coaches if the coach chooses to retain some of the existing staff/assistant coaches. Also, there is a good chance that the new coach will be able to retain some/all of the existing staff/assistant coaches due to familiarity. Again, all of the X, Butler, and VCU coaches were total nobodies when they took over, none of those guys was on the verge of landing some big p5 job. X, Butler, and VCU have almost entirely kept things in-house over the last 20-30 years, and all 3 have grossly outperformed us. Keeping things in-house increases the odds greatly IMO of a smooth transition. Everything is already set up and humming smoothly. If it ain't broke, then don't fix it! Don't mess with it! Leave it alone! Don't mess with success!!!

I’m not an idiot. It’s easy to see the value of continuity from a conceptual standpoint. Now, answer the question that I posed. Who was ready to be the head coach from AM’s staff? And, why did you support him? Give me specifics. Don’t hide behind all your high level platitudes of continuity. Also, give me some explanation why you think another AD hasn’t seen what you saw in the coveted AM assistant? Where’s the disconnect?

If AG is damaged goods because it didn’t work out at Alabama, isn’t AM damaged goods too after his flameout at IU? A coach can learn from earlier failure—especially if they’ve had success before.

BTW, Greer is a 100% better choice than anyone from AM’s staff. So, yeah, I’m all for continuity if the right candidate is available.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by CJ2etc The FBI had Sean on tape telling a middle man he authorized the bribe to a top recruit that ended up committing to Arizona but was released after it all came out. It was as dirty, disgusting and red handed as it could be. No idea how he wasn't prosecuted or banned. I'll take AG over any Millers every day. Many of my X fan friends aren't very happy w the hire either

I was with you 100% until your last sentence. Who has X friends? :-)

I never want to follow a program that intentionally sets out to win at all cost. The cheating at the highest level of college sports is disgusting and not something I want UD to surrender to just for the sake of wins. Integrity >> NCAA bids
Posted via Mobile Device

[OSU Flyer]

The NCAA not dropping the hammer on Sean Miller I don’t approve but I understand. I’m still shocked that Xavier signed off on that hire
Posted via Mobile Device

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[CJ2etc]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer I was with you 100% until your last sentence. Who has X friends? :-) Posted via Mobile Device

I've lived and worked in Cincinnati for 30+ years now so it's just logistics. : )

[SeasonTicketFan]

Not sure what this has to do with Kaleb, but...

Ron Jirsa applied the head coach after OP left. BG was hired. Jirsa became the head coach at Marshall and did not fare well. Previously he was the head coach at Geogia. He brought Ramod with him. I don't believe any other assistant on OPs staff ever became a head coach.

I can't recall if anyone from BGs staff applied for the job. Billy Schmidt would have been the most logical, but I think UD did not want the BG system any longer. Anthony Solomon became the head coach to clean up the St. Bonaventure disaster.

When AM left, Tom, Ostrom applied for the head coach job. He joined AM's staff at Indiana.

UD does not have a history of hiring assistants as replacements. Exception Donoher.

It does not always work out. North Carolina's long time top assistant to Dean Smith was a disaster.

BTW. Thad Matta was at Butler when he was hired by X.

Hiring coaches and recruiting players is not a perfect science. You can always find an exception here and there.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by springborofan Who was ready to be the head coach from AM’s staff? And, why did you support him? Give me specifics. Don’t hide behind all your high level platitudes of continuity. Also, give me some explanation why you think another AD hasn’t seen what you saw in the coveted AM assistant? Where’s the disconnect? If AG is damaged goods because it didn’t work out at Alabama, isn’t AM damaged goods too after his flameout at IU? A coach can learn from earlier failure—especially if they’ve had success before. BTW, Greer is a 100% better choice than anyone from AM’s staff. So, yeah, I’m all for continuity if the right candidate is available.

That is the million dollar question. If I knew the answer to that question, I'd be the richest man in the world, surpassing Elon Musk.

When Matta was hired at X around 20-25 years ago, I remember watching one of the sports phone call in shows on TV, I think it was Sports of All Sorts on ABC Channel 9 WCPO. Matta was in the studio with one of the WCPO sports anchors taking calls live on the air in front of the camera. I distinctly remember one of the callers calling in and saying something like: "what in the h*ll is going on over there at Xavier? Thad Matta? Who in the hell is this young pipsqueak? I have never even heard of this guy. What in the h*ll makes Thad Matta qualified to be the next head coach at Xavier? One year of head coaching experience at Butler? This is a really questionable hiring decision!"

Matta just kind of sat there squirming IMO, he didn't really know what to say IMO, but obviously he proved the caller wrong 8 months later.

The X AD at the time, Bobinski, said he bumped into Matta at dinner at a restaurant while Matta was coaching Butler. Butler had just dismantled Wake Forest in the ncaat round of 64. Bobinski said that he was impressed by Matta both on and off the court. The rest is history.

Same thing with Sean Miller. He missed the ncaat his first year at X. And they had to win the a10t in year 2 to make the ncaat. There were definitely people grumbling that he was a bad hire.

Same thing with Mack. Some local Saint Xavier High grad with no hc experience.

What was it about the resumes of Todd Lickliter or Brad Stevens or Chris Holtmann at Butler that screamed "this guy can coach, he is the right choice!" And Butler had 2 misses: Brandon Miller and LaVall Jordan.

Or what about Anthony Grant or Jeff Capel or Shaka Smart or Will Wade or Mike Rhoades at VCU? None of their resumes screamed success.

Hiring is kind of an art and a science IMO.

Ostrom, Griffin, or Kuwik were our choices if we wanted to try the continuity thing.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[N2663R]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer The NCAA not dropping the hammer on Sean Miller I don’t approve but I understand. I’m still shocked that Xavier signed off on that hire Posted via Mobile Device

I don't think they had any other choice. From what I have heard in the past, X athletics is treading water, and it literally "is" the university. If X basketball dies, X itself might start a slow decline. Miller was successful at X and they need basketball to be successful. They have nothing else. Given his past, Miller might now be a lifer at X. Besides, any publicity is good publicity . . .

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[N2663R]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer I was with you 100% until your last sentence. Who has X friends? :-) I never want to follow a program that intentionally sets out to win at all cost. The cheating at the highest level of college sports is disgusting and not something I want UD to surrender to just for the sake of wins. Integrity >> NCAA bids Posted via Mobile Device

If those "X friends" who are not happy with the hire don't contribute 5-6 figure amounts to the university, their happiness is of no consequence to the administration.

Your second comment just succinctly described the difference between a Jesuit and a Marianist.

[OSU Flyer]

Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan Not sure what this has to do with Kaleb, but... Ron Jirsa applied the head coach after OP left. BG was hired. Jirsa became the head coach at Marshall and did not fare well. Previously he was the head coach at Geogia. He brought Ramod with him. I don't believe any other assistant on OPs staff ever became a head coach. I can't recall if anyone from BGs staff applied for the job. Billy Schmidt would have been the most logical, but I think UD did not want the BG system any longer. Anthony Solomon became the head coach to clean up the St. Bonaventure disaster. When AM left, Tom, Ostrom applied for the head coach job. He joined AM's staff at Indiana. UD does not have a history of hiring assistants as replacements. Exception Donoher. It does not always work out. North Carolina's long time top assistant to Dean Smith was a disaster. BTW. Thad Matta was at Butler when he was hired by X. Hiring coaches and recruiting players is not a perfect science. You can always find an exception here and there.

I believe Billy Schmidt did and BG even encouraged UD to hire him

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by springborofan If AG is damaged goods because it didn’t work out at Alabama, isn’t AM damaged goods too after his flameout at IU? A coach can learn from earlier failure—especially if they’ve had success before. BTW, Greer is a 100% better choice than anyone from AM’s staff. So, yeah, I’m all for continuity if the right candidate is available.

Archie has been a head coach for 10 years, he has 5 ncaat appearances. Yes, to a degree he is damaged goods, but he is not that damaged IMO, he is still batting .500 right now.

Grant OTOH has been a head coach for 15 years, including this year. He has 4 ncaat appearances if he misses the ncaat this year, 27% success rate, or 5 ncaat appearances if he makes the ncaat this year, 33% success rate.

Yes, anything can happen, Grant can still turn it around. We lost 3 buy games last year and then won the exempt tournament. I have no idea what is going to happen. Nobody predicted the 1 or 2 seed year, anybody that says that they know what is going to happen is full of it.

If Grant can get things turned around at UD and start getting us into the ncaat more often, I would be fine with turning the keys over to Greer. But I only want Greer if Grant gets this thing turned around enough. I would also maybe be fine with turning the keys over to one of the other assistants, I haven't looked at everybody's resume.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by springborofan I’m not an idiot. It’s easy to see the value of continuity from a conceptual standpoint. Now, answer the question that I posed. Who was ready to be the head coach from AM’s staff? And, why did you support him? Give me specifics. Don’t hide behind all your high level platitudes of continuity. Also, give me some explanation why you think another AD hasn’t seen what you saw in the coveted AM assistant? Where’s the disconnect?

And I not just shooting from the hip with this. There was a poll posted on udpride right after Archie left and before Grant was hired. Archie's assistants won the poll.

View Poll Results: Where should UD look for a coach?

Current UD assistant coach 63 46.32%

Current head coach from low major conference 17 12.50%

Assistant coach from top tier program 10 7.35%

A head coach fired from a top level program (Crean, Groce, ect) 31 22.79%

Ray Harper 15 11.03%

Voters: 136.

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30787

[SLUFLYER]

Originally Posted by ud2 And I not just shooting from the hip with this. There was a poll posted on udpride right after Archie left and before Grant was hired. Archie's assistants won the poll. View Poll Results: Where should UD look for a coach? Current UD assistant coach 63 46.32% Current head coach from low major conference 17 12.50% Assistant coach from top tier program 10 7.35% A head coach fired from a top level program (Crean, Groce, ect) 31 22.79% Ray Harper 15 11.03% Voters: 136. http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30787

We whiffed on that Ray Harper opportunity. It was right there in our lap.

[UD62]

Originally Posted by ud2 Archie has been a head coach for 10 years, he has 5 ncaat appearances. Yes, to a degree he is damaged goods, but he is not that damaged IMO, he is still batting .500 right now. Grant OTOH has been a head coach for 15 years, including this year. He has 4 ncaat appearances if he misses the ncaat this year, 27% success rate, or 5 ncaat appearances if he makes the ncaat this year, 33% success rate. Yes, anything can happen, Grant can still turn it around. We lost 3 buy games last year and then won the exempt tournament. I have no idea what is going to happen. Nobody predicted the 1 or 2 seed year, anybody that says that they know what is going to happen is full of it. If Grant can get things turned around at UD and start getting us into the ncaat more often, I would be fine with turning the keys over to Greer. But I only want Greer if Grant gets this thing turned around enough. I would also maybe be fine with turning the keys over to one of the other assistants, I haven't looked at everybody's resume.

I doubt you would "turn the page". There would always be something to justify your dislike of the AG hire. I do give you credit for being consistent and persistent

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by ud2 And I not just shooting from the hip with this. There was a poll posted on udpride right after Archie left and before Grant was hired. Archie's assistants won the poll. View Poll Results: Where should UD look for a coach? Current UD assistant coach 63 46.32% Current head coach from low major conference 17 12.50% Assistant coach from top tier program 10 7.35% A head coach fired from a top level program (Crean, Groce, ect) 31 22.79% Ray Harper 15 11.03% Voters: 136. http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30787

Looks like a whole lotta bad votes were cast here (Crean, Groce, UD assistants, Harper). Glad Priders aren’t responsible for hiring.
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[UD62]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer Looks like a whole lotta bad votes were cast here (Crean, Groce, UD assistants, Harper). Glad Priders aren’t responsible for hiring. Posted via Mobile Device

Amen to that.

[springborofan]

Originally Posted by ud2 And I not just shooting from the hip with this. There was a poll posted on udpride right after Archie left and before Grant was hired. Archie's assistants won the poll. View Poll Results: Where should UD look for a coach? Current UD assistant coach 63 46.32% Current head coach from low major conference 17 12.50% Assistant coach from top tier program 10 7.35% A head coach fired from a top level program (Crean, Groce, ect) 31 22.79% Ray Harper 15 11.03% Voters: 136. http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30787

You keep going back to theory. Stand up and tell me who from AG’s staff should have been hired. And why. And why he hasn’t gotten any other comparable offers in the past 6 years. Yawn.

[UD62]

Originally Posted by springborofan You keep going back to theory. Stand up and tell me who from AG’s staff should have been hired. And why. And why he hasn’t gotten any other comparable offers in the past 6 years. Yawn.

I believe you mean AM's staff.

[Furio]

Where are they now:

Tom Ostrom Drake assistant now, Indiana assistant with AM
Kevin Kuwik Butler assistant now, Davidson assistant for 5 years
Allen Griffin Still an assistant at Syracuse

no head coaching jobs thus far

[OSU Flyer]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer Looks like a whole lotta bad votes were cast here (Crean, Groce, UD assistants, Harper). Glad Priders aren’t responsible for hiring. Posted via Mobile Device

If Ray Harper was the coach we’d be looking at 6 straight conference titles
Posted via Mobile Device

[UDEE79]

Originally Posted by frisco flyer Didn’t Xavier just fire their last coach? And didn’t they just hire a cheater of a coach in Sean Miller who left AZ with his tail between his legs? I would be disappointed if Our administration uses Xavier as the standard for success at UD. We can do so much better.

I just looked over the list of Xavier coaches and they had one string of hiring assistants. Matta/Miller/Mack/Steele. That was a pretty good run until they got to Steele. No, I don't want us to try to be Xavier however I would love to have a run that matches Matta/Miller/Mack. Wouldn't you?

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by springborofan You keep going back to theory. Stand up and tell me who from AG’s staff should have been hired. And why. And why he hasn’t gotten any other comparable offers in the past 6 years. Yawn.

Yes, fair enough, between Griffin, Kuwik, and Ostrom, I honestly can't decide. They all have a lot of experience, and they have all been lauded by both Archie and their current and past schools. Kuwik and Ostrom were involved with the Nike/Villa 7/TopConnect future head coaches/leadership program. Griffin is a former high-level player who played at Syracuse.

I don't want to sell any of these guys short.

Kuwik was mentioned as a candidate for the Dartmouth head coaching job.

Ostrom started his coaching career in 1998. He went to undergrad at Minnesota and was involved with the men's basketball program while there.

Kuwik also started his coaching career in 1998. He went to undergrad at Notre Dame and was involved with the men's basketball program while there.

Griffin started his coaching career around 2001 or 2002.

All 3 have coached at several schools.

This is why Neil gets paid the big bucks, he is the one who has to sort all of this stuff out.

[springborofan]

Originally Posted by ud2 Yes, fair enough, between Griffin, Kuwik, and Ostrom, I honestly can't decide. They all have a lot of experience, and they have all been lauded by both Archie and their current and past schools. Kuwik and Ostrom were involved with the Nike/Villa 7/TopConnect future head coaches/leadership program. Griffin is a former high-level player who played at Syracuse. I don't want to sell any of these guys short. Kuwik was mentioned as a candidate for the Dartmouth head coaching job. Ostrom started his coaching career in 1998. He went to undergrad at Minnesota and was involved with the men's basketball program wh Kuwik also started his coaching career in 1998. He went to undergrad at Notre Dame and was involved with the men's basketball program while there. Griffin started his coaching career around 2001 or 2002. All 3 have coached at several schools. This is why Neil gets paid the big bucks, he is the one who has to sort all of this stuff out.

I just don’t think any of them had a compelling enough resume to take a chance on them. Ostrom was the top assistant so I guess he was probably the top candidate. I always viewed Ostrom as more of a used car salesman. He was a good recruiter but he never played college basketball and I never viewed him as an X’s and O’s guy so I think he would have been risky. Kuwik was in the 3rd assistant role—kind of like Hertz now. Possibly Griffin but he also didn’t strike me as a leader—he seemed a bit passive. Is he in line to be the HC at Syracuse after Boeheim leaves? If not, that answers that question.

I mentioned Greer. Why I like Greer is he played overseas professionally for over a decade. He has outstanding connections in both Dominican Republic and in Europe. He’s moved up consistently to now the top assistant seat. I think he has both the basketball acumen AND recruiting chops to be a HC. He strikes me as a better alternative to any of the three if/when a decision on keeping an assistant makes sense.

Back to the choice six years ago. One of these assistants I outlined above or a former successful HC at the same level UD plays (all the AG haters want to forget his success at VCU), had NBA coaching experience, and happened to be a former alum. Yes, he also struggled at Alabama—a school where spring football has a larger following than basketball. On balance, the decision seems obvious to most.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by ud2 Yes, fair enough, between Griffin, Kuwik, and Ostrom, I honestly can't decide. They all have a lot of experience, and they have all been lauded by both Archie and their current and past schools. Kuwik and Ostrom were involved with the Nike/Villa 7/TopConnect future head coaches/leadership program. Griffin is a former high-level player who played at Syracuse. I don't want to sell any of these guys short. Kuwik was mentioned as a candidate for the Dartmouth head coaching job. Ostrom started his coaching career in 1998. He went to undergrad at Minnesota and was involved with the men's basketball program while there. Kuwik also started his coaching career in 1998. He went to undergrad at Notre Dame and was involved with the men's basketball program while there. Griffin started his coaching career around 2001 or 2002. All 3 have coached at several schools. This is why Neil gets paid the big bucks, he is the one who has to sort all of this stuff out.

And how many of them have gotten head coaching jobs since Archie left?

[ud2]

Originally Posted by springborofan Back to the choice six years ago. One of these assistants I outlined above or a former successful HC at the same level UD plays (all the AG haters want to forget his success at VCU), had NBA coaching experience, and happened to be a former alum. Yes, he also struggled at Alabama—a school where spring football has a larger following than basketball. On balance, the decision seems obvious to most.

Sorry, I don't think the choice was obvious at all. He was 1 for 6 at Alabama, that was a red flag. 1 ncaat, 3 nit in 6 years.

The guy before him at Alabama was there for 11 years with 5 ncaat's and 2 nit's.

The guy after him was there for 4 years, 1 ncaat, 3 nit. And they canned him after just 4 years.

The guy there now is in his 4th year. He is 2/3 making the ncaat.

We are close to have happening the same thing here, 1/6. You could argue that 1/6 was predictable.

And I don't care about the NBA stuff. I care about making the ncaat.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by longtimefan And how many of them have gotten head coaching jobs since Archie left?

That would be a big fat zero.

How many good/decent d1 jobs open up every year though? Some of these jobs are really tough. Who wants to coach at New Hampshire? You spend a long time waiting to get your chance, you take that tough NH job and get fired, and you never get another chance. I'd think you'd have to be selective about which jobs you'd take in order to protect your reputation, if you get fired, you look really bad. New Hampshire has never been to the ncaat.

Maybe these guys were candidates for some jobs but turned down the offers.

[momszer]

They used to be a power under CM Newton and Wimp Sanderson and Grant got canned because they want to be a basketball school too not just Football. He did a decent job at Alabama just not good enough. Here's their record:

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/alabama/

I am glad UD hired AG and I want him to be here as long as he wants to be for now. Now if we go down the crapper this year and next I might change my mind.

[John C.]

It's so funny. I start to read a post and know it is UD2 without even looking for the author. Same stuff over and over.

[Glen Clark]

Originally Posted by John C. It's so funny. I start to read a post and know it is UD2 without even looking for the author. Same stuff over and over.

So you're saying I can safely use the ignore feature?

_____________________
Whether your glass is half full or half empty, you still have more to drink

[ud2]

Originally Posted by springborofan I always viewed Ostrom as more of a used car salesman. He was a good recruiter but he never played college basketball and I never viewed him as an X’s and O’s guy so I think he would have been risky.

I do not understand how some of these coaches(and I am not pointing at Ostrom, I am just replying to your post), if they were an assistant under a good x's and o's coach, they do not seem to have command of all of the x's and o's aspects of the game.

I just don't understand how you can be around a good x's and o's guy for years and not have a lot of that stuff just rub off on you. I mean we are talking years and years of practices and games and film study and scouting and game planning, you'd think you'd pick up a lot of that stuff just from the constant exposure to it and being around the good x's and o's head coach all the time.

But sometimes I see a former assistant take over, and I notice a clear difference/some deficiencies in some areas. Some of these coaches must just make it look easy.

I thought Archie was a very good x's and o's guy.

When you watch a team that is well coached from an x's and o's perspective, you can just see the difference, it leaves an impression on you.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by ud2 That would be a big fat zero. How many good/decent d1 jobs open up every year though? Some of these jobs are really tough. Who wants to coach at New Hampshire? You spend a long time waiting to get your chance, you take that tough NH job and get fired, and you never get another chance. I'd think you'd have to be selective about which jobs you'd take in order to protect your reputation, if you get fired, you look really bad. New Hampshire has never been to the ncaat. Maybe these guys were candidates for some jobs but turned down the offers.

Maybe AM's assistants DO apply but they're getting passed over. Why would that be? Maybe they look at AM himself and say something like: "Eh, pass on the Archie Miller assistant; if they're anything like HIM, we don't need or want the drama. Besides, we don't want a coach using New Hampshire as a stepping stone, we want a winning tradition".

[SeasonTicketFan]

There have been many great assistant coaches who do not make good head coaches. Just because your head coach is successful, does not mean you will be as well.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan There have been many great assistant coaches who do not make good head coaches. Just because your head coach is successful, does not mean you will be as well.

You see the opposite in the NFL all the time. Great D or O coordinators who are great with Xs and Os but fail miserably as the head coach.
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[NJFlyr71]

Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan There have been many great assistant coaches who do not make good head coaches. Just because your head coach is successful, does not mean you will be as well.

THIS!

[NJFlyr71]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer You see the opposite in the NFL all the time. Great D or O coordinators who are great with Xs and Os but fail miserably as the head coach. Posted via Mobile Device

THIS! Squared

[UD62]

Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan There have been many great assistant coaches who do not make good head coaches. Just because your head coach is successful, does not mean you will be as well.

Patricia recently coach of the Lions is a good example. He came from the Pats and is back with the Pats as an assistant

[CT Flyer]

Originally Posted by UD62 Patricia recently coach of the Lions is a good example. He came from the Pats and is back back with the Pats as an assistant

And has completely destroyed any offensive system they had coming into this year, and in the process has destroyed Mac Jones. He should have stuck with the defensive side of the ball.

[The Gem]

I wonder if Tyrone Baker is jealous that his transfer thread has so many fewer posts and has stayed relatively on topic?

[Alberto Strasse]

Do not recognize the name. Isn't this a Dayton Flyer board?

[T-Bone 84]

As long as we’re this far off the rails in the Kaleb Washington thread: what are the best Wing joints in the Dayton area? For my money, the Garlic Parm wings at Little York Tavern are hard to beat.
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[udscott]

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 As long as we’re this far off the rails in the Kaleb Washington thread: what are the best Wing joints in the Dayton area? For my money, the Garlic Parm wings at Little York Tavern are hard to beat. Posted via Mobile Device

Classic response ! Lol
Posted via Mobile Device

[rollo]

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 As long as we’re this far off the rails in the Kaleb Washington thread: what are the best Wing joints in the Dayton area? For my money, the Garlic Parm wings at Little York Tavern are hard to beat. Posted via Mobile Device

Lock 27 dry rub wings are Super!
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