Coach Grant returning

[Jeff]

The comments on the RJ thread reminded me of "culture". That's what we heard from AG when he was hired...building a "culture". The sport will always have players moving to perceived greener pastures - that's how the system is designed now. In many cases, a transfer is not a big surprise. They are usually guys that cant get minutes.

But RJ & Amzil are different. These are guys that get minutes.....a lot of minutes. But they are leaving, why? What does this say about the "culture" of the program? Perhaps the first smoke was LG3 leaving for another A10 school. There's plenty of discussion regarding the results - wins/losses, tournament appearances. But now, a new dancer has entered the room, and she's call "turnover".

In a corporate setting, a manager who continues to have above average turnover usually starts to get on HR's radar. Especially when employees that were thought to be significant contributors begin to leave.

Now that the system makes it easy for student athletes to transfer, this activity actually exposes issues. Gone is the threat of losing a year - players vote with their feet.

Does that make the player (and their assessment) right? Absolutely not! Will players who realize they've made a mistake and are not going to get minutes leave (LG3) - sure. This is the roster churn we see with players not getting time.

When players are leaving that have potential (LG3), or are getting playing time - that's a different story. I'm not sure that's a "culture" (talent exodus) that can sustain continued success. As an aside, LG3 affirms AG & team recruiting acumen.

What can work in the current environment? Let's take a look at VCU. They had eight players with over 17 minutes per game. The games played were fairly consistent. UD had the same number of players (8) with minutes > 20(!), but there's a deviation from VCU.....games played were significantly lower for Mali & Elvis due to injury. (With no improvement in W/L) So the experience is different. For the players that are leaving, their minutes dropped when those two returned. So, the comparison to VCU is not the same.....it exposes what I believe most know - AG would much rather play a short rotation than his peers.

In an environment where the school (coach) has the upper hand via the lost year, the gamble to the player is more significant. Those days are gone. It appears to be impacting the traditional power houses, however, in a game where only five are on the court at a time, and at a school with a reputation (Duke as an example), getting the top freshman means they stand a much better chance of staying consistently good year in and out.

But the A10, and therefore UD, is not on that level. So they have to compete with a different approach. At VCU the minutes suggest that a player comes in, gets a load of minutes, and their progression to more minutes is based on their performance. Compare the A10 POY's year over year stats. At UD, you're designated a starter or role player. Look at Mali & Elvis - quickly reinserted to starter roles and minutes. Mali is clearly the best PG we have, but what he brought to running the offense was negated by his surprisingly poor defense, which we have to assume was due to injury. Elvis literally brought nothing....nothing. I'm not making a case for one guy over an other. The point here is that the players see the tape, the players know both from the bench and practice. They know. Once they are in the program, they learn the "culture".

Using VCU in comparison is an exercise in not what the players are told coming in. I'm sure they're told all good things, and their performance will determine their playing time. It's how they can do just that is what makes a difference. It appears VCU coaches method is to expose players and reward those that rise to the top. AG's is here's your role, and it changes based on graduation or injury. Obvious talent, such as Holmes, moves right in, but those players are the exception, and remember DH2 called AG, not the other way around.

Finally, players want to play. Having the 300+ offense is not going to draw top level talent over time. (This reaffirms to me that Holmes came here because he felt AG could get him to the NBA based on Obi's development.) Players want to play with pace. Just watch the tournament. If you want to play at UD, it's not to put up big numbers - unless you're the one showcase player.

It's going to be a hard road for AG. He's got to adapt, and change is easier for someone to tell another, than to do themselves (how's that for irony!).

There are several other red flags that popped up this year. 1) The post game vent at social media. 2) Using the excuse the other team had a week to prepare. 3)Jabo's story on Amzil exposes another interesting fact. The team wanted him to stay....which implies they didnt know he was leaving. Further indicating they had no insight that moving him back to the bench to make way for Elvis wouldn't be a factor in leading to his departure. How in the world could they not know something was up? 4) AG's comment on RJ's playing time. Instead of using generic coach speak, he comes out and effectively says "I'm the boss". 5) The need to affirm AG's return for next season. All of these came well into the season. What makes up "culture"? A series of actions over time. The program has established a culture of having a great player, solid defense, and virtually no tournament appearances. (1 for 6!) Unfortunately, talented players leaving the program is now creeping in.

As much as I like AG, the manner in which he represents the University, and his ability to recruit, there's more than the "silent majority" of the board wants to recognize. I don't think it's going to be easy at all. In fact, it might be very well unattainable.

Refuting this via DD, JOB, OP, BG, AM, is just a silly distraction. Anything that happened in the past is ridiculous, as kids being recruited right now were 12 or 13 when AG started. Within a short year or two, none of the potential recruits will know who Obi was. What matters is what is happening right now, with the staff and administration in place.

[hawkoooo]

This is obviously disappointing and just delays the inevitable.

[Long time Flyer fan]

Originally Posted by springborofan Feel free to give me reasons why you don’t want AG as coach. We can agree on some points and disagree on others. That said, you are either completely irrational, too young to understand, or just a complete fool to indicate in any way that coach Grant’s results fall below Jim O’Brien. Honestly “Long time Flyer Fan”, you’ve already lost any credibility after EIGHT POSTS! Go find a rock to crawl under…

I am a 42 year season ticket holder, so I have observed 6 coaches at UD. I suffered through the awful OBrien years, every game, in person. I continued to support the program. My post did not indicate that he was a better coach than Grant, just a list of NCAA appearances, which seem to be the measuring stick for a program with high expectation such as ours. I found your personal insults amusing, as they go beyond discourse on a basketball opinion board. Your denigrating comments about someone you don't even know, say much about you.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by ud2 Fair enough, that sounds very plausible. The budgetary bottom line is very important. I just think that fan support could potentially drop significantly if we keep losing. I don't think that fan support dropping is always linear or gradual, I think sometimes it can sort of drop off a cliff without warning, and it can be hard to get many of those fans back once they have left.

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer There’s no doubt about it Posted via Mobile Device

I think the acid test was JOB's last 2 years where UD won 10 (TEN) games and IIRC, still had attendance somewhere in the range of 10,000/game. Yeah, THAT got UD's attention. It's kind of almost unreal, really. MOST colleges would be thrilled to have 10,000 average fans in the stands in just great years let alone putrid ones, yet, that was UD in 1994-1995. Once JOB was fired, interest was immediately renewed when it was apparent OP was getting us back on track - and attendance went back to normal. But what I find comical, is the statements above >>>fan support could potentially drop significantly if we keep losing<<<. At DAYTON, they'd have to have a decade of JOB performance his last 2 years to get to that point? BUT LOSING? With all the injuries the last 2 years and finishing 2nd both years - and that's LOSING? GMAFB - you have no idea what "losing" means.

[Hyde Park Flyer]

Originally Posted by CT Flyer I'm just trying to understand this, if you try to build a team that can reach the 3rd weekend, which may happen once every six years or so, you are foregoing the chance to make the tournament the other five years? You can't have a team capable of making the 3rd weekend one year and other teams that make the tourney (even if it's a 1st or 2nd round loss) in at least a few of the other five years? Feast or famine only?

I’m saying that I can accept that, with greater risk, there would be down years. The bigger point is that I can handle peaks and valleys rather than a steady lower slope IF the peaks are appreciably higher. I’m not asking you to agree, but I think you understand it.
Posted via Mobile Device

[pmcmullen]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer There’s no doubt about it Posted via Mobile Device

Of course attendance can, and often does drop quickly. We're all dealing with constraints and decisions regarding where we invest our time and money. You can pull annual attendance records for teams that start to under-perform and see it happen regularly and consistently. People will make a quick decision not to spend their hard-earned money and award a "win" to an event that competes with a slew of other things for their limited time.

It's not about being a bad fan or anything, but if people believe they will get a poor product for their investment, they'll move on. I will, and you can call me a bad/fair weather fan all you want. Instead of paying out a couple grand in season tickets plus concessions and all, I'll watch ****-poor losses in headlines and take my family on a vacation instead. This is especially true when I reach the point of believing the school and AD doesn't care to compete or hold people accountable for performance metrics being missed. I have my very strong suspicions right now, and they will be 100% set in stone if AG is here after another year where Neil's own performance metrics aren't met.

Also, all the talk about a potential #1 or #2 seed one year that didn't happen. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Ask Purdue how that #1 seed went this year. Let's also be real, we absolutely did not capitalize on that season at all, failing to make the Dance since. The window that opened has largely if not completely closed at this point.

Those of you that are high on AG have your wish now. That's fine. And if we do make the tourney this upcoming season, that's not an "eat crow" moment. It needs to be one of a much more consistent string of appearances. In fact, it shouldn't be an eat crow thing in any manner. I'm rooting for AG to get us in 4 of the next 4 NCAA's and run to at least the Sweet 16 each year. I'm hoping Zimi stays and averages a double/double next season. I hope Deuce, Camara, and Mike all stick around and blow all UD scoring, assist, rebounding, dunk, etc records away.

I'm just thinking the odds are higher that I'll get hit by lightning twice today than any of those scenarios happening. Grant's head coaching career is pretty well documented, and as one would expect in statistics, we're seeing results that are far closer to his norm, and I expect that to continue. I see absolutely no reason to believe he will ever have another "Obi" year, be that with UD or another program.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 I think the acid test was JOB's last 2 years where UD won 10 (TEN) games and IIRC, still had attendance somewhere in the range of 10,000/game. Yeah, THAT got UD's attention. It's kind of almost unreal, really. MOST colleges would be thrilled to have 10,000 average fans in the stands in just great years let alone putrid ones, yet, that was UD in 1994-1995. Once JOB was fired, interest was immediately renewed when it was apparent OP was getting us back on track - and attendance went back to normal. But what I find comical, is the statements above >>>fan support could potentially drop significantly if we keep losing<<<. At DAYTON, they'd have to have a decade of JOB performance his last 2 years to get to that point? BUT LOSING? With all the injuries the last 2 years and finishing 2nd both years - and that's LOSING? GMAFB - you have no idea what "losing" means.

Fair enough, I guess.

Is now the same as the 1990's? The Dayton economy was stronger back then. The A10 is trending down, it might become an annual one bid league, there were no seat licenses in the 1990's, ticket prices keep increasing, etc. You are asking fans to pay top dollar, yet you are not delivering top dollar results.

I can see it all come crashing down someday if the results don't improve.

[CT Flyer]

Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer I’m saying that I can accept that, with greater risk, there would be down years. The bigger point is that I can handle peaks and valleys rather than a steady lower slope IF the peaks are appreciably higher. I’m not asking you to agree, but I think you understand it. Posted via Mobile Device

I understand that you feel that way and that is certainly your prerogative. As for me I'd rather see a consistent product year in year out in the form of making the tournament on a regular basis. I believe that type of success will also translate to runs in the tournament from time to time. I guess I want my cake and eat it to, you just want the cake.

[Flyers98]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer @robmurray I know you and your crew always point to Archie make 4 NCAA tournaments which was great. But what would have happened if Scoochie was hurt for significant parts of two seasons? What if Trey and Scoochie missed 12 games in a season? IMO they don’t get a bid. @adamg1224 There are always potential excuses. Below average coaches rely on them to make people believe he’s not below average. Good coaches find a way. @heigely_weigley Archie literally had a season of 6 scholarship guys + 1 walk-on and won multiple NCAAT games @robmurray My point is you can’t judge Archie and Grant without context. No season is perfect but Grant has dealt with significant injuries and youth the last two seasons. Not to mention his own personal losses this past summer. @MrH42 What are you even talking about? One of his rotation players died! He had to play a walk on significant minutes!! Champions adjust. @adamg1224 I didn’t even want to bring up Steve, who wasn’t going to be a rotation player. He was going to be an elite rim protector and starter. There’s no logic behind believing in AG beyond “I think one of the biggest single season outliers a coach has ever had is repeatable”

That season was also the biggest single season outlier the program has had in the modern era of college basketball, what logic is there in believing that is repeatable for the program with any coach? It hasn't happened ever in the current era of UD basketball. The argument has been put forth that the only reason we went 29-2, were ranked #3 and a lock for the tourney, was because we had Obi. If true that has nothing to do with the coach or the program, and we are doomed to mediocrity unless we "luck into" another Obi Toppin.

The thing about belief is that sometimes it doesn't involve unassailable logic, which I guess is why every November I believe that a small school in Ohio has a chance to shock to world. It has literally NEVER happened that way, but for some stupid reason, I keep believing it might. Am I an idiot or did I just describe most of us?

[OSU Flyer]

Attendance is dropping in every sport across the country including winning teams

https://www.aseaofblue.com/2019/11/2...lipari-uk-fans

https://www.kentucky.com/sports/spt-...255825916.html

https://www.axios.com/2022/07/20/mlb...e-falling-2022

https://www.cbssports.com/college-fo...ge-since-1981/

https://www.al.com/sec/2022/03/paul-...s-problem.html

Even Alabama and Ohio State football have empty seats

The dying words of every successful business is somebody sitting there saying, ‘Well, this is how we’ve always done things.’” -Mick Cronin


I hope Dayton sells out every game from here till the end of time but it’s a different world out there than 1993
Posted via Mobile Device

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by superfan99 Smitty, out of all the things you say, I find this the craziest. It sounds like you would rather UD fail just to prove you are right about Grant than for UD to succeed. That is a strange stance. Even if I have an unfavorable opinion about a coach or player, I always am rooting for UD to succeed. It sounds like you are not a fan of the team anymore. I don't feel the same way about AG as you, but if I did, I would want him gone immediately, so we can start to turn the ship around. I wouldn't be concerned about who is going to get credit or blame for next year's results.

No, actually you have it wrong. I will be thrilled if the Flyers win next season and go to the tournament, whether it's with Grant(who it seems it's going to be) or anyone else.

But, I believe that next year is going to be a bad one regardless of who the coach is. And because I think it's a hopeless season, I don't want a new coach getting that and having all of the AG pumpers coming on here and saying "see, without Grant, the team regressed terribly" when it was going to happen either way.

Let me give you a hypothetical to illustrate what I'm talking about.

Let's say we have a mass exodus and the beginning of November rolls around and AG is left with a starting lineup of Richard, Brea, Elvis, Mali and (hell I don't know, let's say Uhl). All of a sudden, before the 1st game comes around, AG leaves(for whatever reason). We bring in a new coach on the fly and win 9 games for the season. You know as well as I that LongtimeBonehead and the rest of members with a man crush on AG would be here saying "I told you that we were better off with AG, he never had this bad of a season, I warned you that we could wind up with another JOB, and we did".

[pmcmullen]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 I think the acid test was JOB's last 2 years where UD won 10 (TEN) games and IIRC, still had attendance somewhere in the range of 10,000/game. Yeah, THAT got UD's attention. It's kind of almost unreal, really. MOST colleges would be thrilled to have 10,000 average fans in the stands in just great years let alone putrid ones, yet, that was UD in 1994-1995. Once JOB was fired, interest was immediately renewed when it was apparent OP was getting us back on track - and attendance went back to normal. But what I find comical, is the statements above >>>fan support could potentially drop significantly if we keep losing<<<. At DAYTON, they'd have to have a decade of JOB performance his last 2 years to get to that point? BUT LOSING? With all the injuries the last 2 years and finishing 2nd both years - and that's LOSING? GMAFB - you have no idea what "losing" means.

A hell of a lot has changed since the JOB era. That was way before seat licenses raised our season ticket prices a lot, ticket and concession prices in general for the tickets are significantly higher, inflation across the economy as a whole is making living significantly harder on the working class families, and there are many other financial factors.

Also, younger generations do not have the loyalty yours did to things they view as hitting their pocket book unnecessarily. The generations that were loyal to the same job for 30+ years has come to pass. Sports offices are well aware of this, even if you don't want to believe it. These 20-somethings were a long ways from even being born in the JOB era. Not sure how much of an acid test that will prove to be.

But hey, you have AG for at least another year to test that theory!

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by ud2 Fair enough, that sounds very plausible. The budgetary bottom line is very important. I just think that fan support could potentially drop significantly if we keep losing. I don't think that fan support dropping is always linear or gradual, I think sometimes it can sort of drop off a cliff without warning, and it can be hard to get many of those fans back once they have left.

Fan support is what it is. Some don't care about success... the Dayton Dragons model of entertainment to fill seats.

Student support is the same as, or worse, than under Archie. Ud gave away the 400 section student tickets on a REGULAR basis from the start of Christmas break through the end of the season. How do I know? I got the offers and alerts prior to every game on 1sttix.org.

The only reason some say student support is up is because it was nonexistent in 20-21. Fan support is tied to the schedule. Weekday and Friday night games are what they are. Other than VCU and SLU... who is considered a rival to get up for? Sure isn't XU. When is the last white out, red out, free towel waving game? There hasn't been one in years. Sponsors aren't even getting up for it.

The ROI on UD hoops is going to wane if there isn't success. Eyes on TVs make money.

Die hard fans who wouldn't miss a game over the last two decades... even under BG... don't have the same interest. Giving away tickets... missing games... it's not what it was. Say the 50 or so friends I have with season tickets... the effort isn't there like it was. If these guys were good and had a chance for post season, the effort would be there.

We should also run a UDP poll to see how many active members on here are actually season ticket holders and speak to others at the Arena about the same things. Fan sentiment is different than some think. A fan in Chicago or Florida doesn't have the same perspective as the person who is local and gets the vibe from ticket holders and other area fans who attend games.

Listen to the beer line grumbling at the half about the sane stuff. You aren't hearing defenders of what is going on... you hear BG Era complaints...game by game.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by Flyers98 That season was also the biggest single season outlier the program has had in the modern era of college basketball, what logic is there in believing that is repeatable for the program with any coach? It hasn't happened ever in the current era of UD basketball. The argument has been put forth that the only reason we went 29-2, were ranked #3 and a lock for the tourney, was because we had Obi. If true that has nothing to do with the coach or the program, and we are doomed to mediocrity unless we "luck into" another Obi Toppin. The thing about belief is that sometimes it doesn't involve unassailable logic, which I guess is why every November I believe that a small school in Ohio has a chance to shock to world. It has literally NEVER happened that way, but for some stupid reason, I keep believing it might. Am I an idiot or did I just describe most of us?

You don't "Luck" into another Obi, you find him in the weeds using any means possible (and AG and staff DID). If he found Obi, I have confidence he'll find another. Contrast that with both OP and AM basically stating they don't ever try for those kind of players. It never ceases to amaze me how many people on this board constantly point at Obi Toppin and say "Grant had to have a player of HIS talent to get us to that point; without Obi, it wouldn't have happened"...Yeah, look at almost ALL of the Final 4 and your likely to see at least one first round lottery pick in the starting lineup if not more. AG also recruited most of the Billy Donovan Championships..

[pmcmullen]

Originally Posted by shocka43 Fan support is what it is. ... Listen to the beer line grumbling at the half about the sane stuff. You aren't hearing defenders of what is going on... you hear BG Era complaints...game by game.

I couldn't agree more! Anyone that actually wants to argue this has not been in the stands. Some seem to think everyone is holding onto Obi-era AG hoops like they are, but the mood in the arena consistently tells a remarkably different story.

[flyerfanatic86]

Originally Posted by ud2 Having read most of the posts recently, I definitely get the feeling that even if we miss the ncaat next year, a sizeable chunk of the fan base will want to retain Coach Grant for an 8th year. We will have to see what happens in 23-24. We may end up retaining Grant for at least 8 years like SLU is apparently doing with Ford.

I wouldn't be shocked. Again, there's no urgency to win by this admin. And as some have said elsewhere here, "urgency is overrated." Some fans are content to throw away seasons.

[UD62]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 I think the acid test was JOB's last 2 years where UD won 10 (TEN) games and IIRC, still had attendance somewhere in the range of 10,000/game. Yeah, THAT got UD's attention. It's kind of almost unreal, really. MOST colleges would be thrilled to have 10,000 average fans in the stands in just great years let alone putrid ones, yet, that was UD in 1994-1995. Once JOB was fired, interest was immediately renewed when it was apparent OP was getting us back on track - and attendance went back to normal. But what I find comical, is the statements above >>>fan support could potentially drop significantly if we keep losing<<<. At DAYTON, they'd have to have a decade of JOB performance his last 2 years to get to that point? BUT LOSING? With all the injuries the last 2 years and finishing 2nd both years - and that's LOSING? GMAFB - you have no idea what "losing" means.

Agree. In my mind "losing' is Tulsa 5-25, SMU 10-22, UL 4-28, URI 9-22, G'town 7-25, and of course the last of OB's teams. Could the season have turned out better, of course, but we are a long way from "keep on losing". Some of the posts are comical.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

[Long time Flyer fan]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 I think the acid test was JOB's last 2 years where UD won 10 (TEN) games and IIRC, still had attendance somewhere in the range of 10,000/game. Yeah, THAT got UD's attention. It's kind of almost unreal, really. MOST colleges would be thrilled to have 10,000 average fans in the stands in just great years let alone putrid ones, yet, that was UD in 1994-1995. Once JOB was fired, interest was immediately renewed when it was apparent OP was getting us back on track - and attendance went back to normal. But what I find comical, is the statements above >>>fan support could potentially drop significantly if we keep losing<<<. At DAYTON, they'd have to have a decade of JOB performance his last 2 years to get to that point? BUT LOSING? With all the injuries the last 2 years and finishing 2nd both years - and that's LOSING? GMAFB - you have no idea what "losing" means.

In those 2 seasons of of a combined 10 wins UD was in the Great Midwest Conference. I had forgotten was a tough league that was. Marquette, St. Louis, UAB, Cincinnati, Depaul and Memphis. Can you imagine the excitement at the arena with that schedule now?

[Jeff]

Great, another 10 posts about a coaching era gone by. Players being recruited right now could care less. Heck most being recruited would vaguely know of Obi. In a couple of years, that positive will be irrelevant. What matters no wis what can be done to make the program consistently a participant in the tournament. Just like Neil set as a goal.

[zmz723]

Originally Posted by Jeff Great, another 10 posts about a coaching era gone by. Players being recruited right now could care less. Heck most being recruited would vaguely know of Obi. In a couple of years, that positive will be irrelevant. What matters no wis what can be done to make the program consistently a participant in the tournament. Just like Neil set as a goal.

They had incredible momentum because of Obi and that team. That’s why AG landed the top recruit in program history who was being courted by tons of high majors. And then it was completely wasted by poor roster construction and coaching
Posted via Mobile Device

[zmz723]

This is a great thread comparing SDSU, who also had an incredible year in 2020, and our Flyers:

https://twitter.com/udcommenter/stat...khSgn2UaH_0Bgw

Very similar programs and resources. Except SDSU made the tourney in 2021, 2022, and is now in the sweet 16 as a 5 seed this year. If AG was actually a good coach he would have been able to do similar things as Brian Dutcher after a once in a lifetime season
Posted via Mobile Device

[CoffeeCan]

Originally Posted by zmz723 This is a great thread comparing SDSU, who also had an incredible year in 2020, and our Flyers: https://twitter.com/udcommenter/stat...khSgn2UaH_0Bgw Very similar programs and resources. Except SDSU made the tourney in 2021, 2022, and is now in the sweet 16 as a 5 seed this year. If AG was actually a good coach he would have been able to do similar things as Brian Dutcher after a once in a lifetime season Posted via Mobile Device

Was just about to post this. No reason why we cant be SDSU or better. Oh.. and CAG is a great man so that counts for like 14 wins I guess

[CT Flyer]

Originally Posted by zmz723 This is a great thread comparing SDSU, who also had an incredible year in 2020, and our Flyers: https://twitter.com/udcommenter/stat...khSgn2UaH_0Bgw Very similar programs and resources. Except SDSU made the tourney in 2021, 2022, and is now in the sweet 16 as a 5 seed this year. If AG was actually a good coach he would have been able to do similar things as Brian Dutcher after a once in a lifetime season Posted via Mobile Device

And don't forget this board did not like the A10/MW challenge (BTW is that challenge off the table now) because the MW wasn't good enough and we were worried we wouldn't get a good partner each year.

[OSU Flyer]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 You don't "Luck" into another Obi, you find him in the weeds using any means possible (and AG and staff DID). If he found Obi, I have confidence he'll find another. Contrast that with both OP and AM basically stating they don't ever try for those kind of players. It never ceases to amaze me how many people on this board constantly point at Obi Toppin and say "Grant had to have a player of HIS talent to get us to that point; without Obi, it wouldn't have happened"...Yeah, look at almost ALL of the Final 4 and your likely to see at least one first round lottery pick in the starting lineup if not more. AG also recruited most of the Billy Donovan Championships..

The odds of finding another National Player of the Year again are about as high as winning the power ball twice. John Calipari at Kentucky has signed scores of McDonald’s All Americans and produced over 30 first round picks there. He’s had one National Player of the Year, Anthony Davis in 2012

Coach Grant to his credit found and developed a player who’s likely to be an NBA draft pick, Holmes, and he won’t play in the tournament at UD

Last year, Villanova and North Carolina didn’t have a first round pick in the Final Four.
Posted via Mobile Device

[bcross]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 You don't "Luck" into another Obi, you find him in the weeds using any means possible (and AG and staff DID). If he found Obi, I have confidence he'll find another. Contrast that with both OP and AM basically stating they don't ever try for those kind of players. It never ceases to amaze me how many people on this board constantly point at Obi Toppin and say "Grant had to have a player of HIS talent to get us to that point; without Obi, it wouldn't have happened"...Yeah, look at almost ALL of the Final 4 and your likely to see at least one first round lottery pick in the starting lineup if not more. AG also recruited most of the Billy Donovan Championships..

AG hired Anthony Solomon who had previously been recruiting Obi to Georgetown before JTIII was fired. That's the extent of the story. The guy that "found" Obi isn't even on the staff.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer The odds of finding another National Player of the Year again are about as high as winning the power ball twice. John Calipari at Kentucky has signed scores of McDonald’s All Americans and produced over 30 first round picks there. He’s had one National Player of the Year, Anthony Davis in 2012 Coach Grant to his credit found and developed a player who’s likely to be an NBA draft pick, Holmes, and he won’t play in the tournament at UD Last year, Villanova and North Carolina didn’t have a first round pick in the Final Four. Posted via Mobile Device

I said "most" have a first rounder and historically that's probably true. So IF coach Cal has as you say produced 30 first rounders since he's been there, would you say he's "under performed" with respect to given (aka recruited) talent?

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by bcross AG hired Anthony Solomon who had previously been recruiting Obi to Georgetown before JTIII was fired. That's the extent of the story. The guy that "found" Obi isn't even on the staff.

And who hired Anthony Solomon? Got it

[Marysville Flyer]

2020 taught many of us a lot. For some not so much.

So which is it?

A.) If an AG team does well it's all on a/the player(s) not any positive reflect on AG
B.) If an AG team does poorly it's all on AG as they are his players and/or he can't coach

A.) Obi was National Player of year despite AG
B.) AG was National coach of the year only because of Obi

A.) UD wins the players played well
B.) UD loses - AG got outcoached again

Questions the Armchairs should ask themselves
1.) Would Obi have been National player of the year if they had finished 26-5? 22-9?
2.) Did Obi's game develop after he stepped on campus?
3.) Did AG win National coach of the year?
4.) Why does me claiming Obi was 'lightening in a bottle' allow me to continue to label
AG as a coaching failure when I look so foolish doing so?
5.) Does a team of good players need a good coach to bring out the best in them?
6.) Didn't I repeatedly tell you AG as a horrible hire 6 years ago claiming he could never
accomplish half the things he did in 2020?
7.) Didn't I keep reiterating these same mantras after 2018 and even louder after 2019?
8.) Did I keep telling everyone I told you so after 2020?
9.) Do other coaches I'd love to have at UD use TOs like AG, not employ the non-2 for 1
strategy, not foul late when up 3, coach their players foul 3 point shooters, coach
their teams to have long draughts without a FG?

Armchair Reasoning Flowchart

1) AG is a Horrible Coach
2) If AG does anything big or small to indicate he actually can coach Refer to #1 and
empty your brain (it's supposed to be only of this thought not all reason and logic)

[CT Flyer]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer The odds of finding another National Player of the Year again are about as high as winning the power ball twice. John Calipari at Kentucky has signed scores of McDonald’s All Americans and produced over 30 first round picks there. He’s had one National Player of the Year, Anthony Davis in 2012 Coach Grant to his credit found and developed a player who’s likely to be an NBA draft pick, Holmes, and he won’t play in the tournament at UD Last year, Villanova and North Carolina didn’t have a first round pick in the Final Four. Posted via Mobile Device

I agree, although I thought Tshiebwe won some NPOY awards last year?

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer 2020 taught many of us a lot. For some not so much. So which is it? A.) If an AG team does well it's all on a/the player(s) not any positive reflect on AG B.) If an AG team does poorly it's all on AG as they are his players and/or he can't coach A.) Obi was National Player of year despite AG B.) AG was National coach of the year only because of Obi A.) UD wins the players played well B.) UD loses - AG got outcoached again Questions the Armchairs should ask themselves 1.) Would Obi have been National player of the year if they had finished 26-5? 22-9? 2.) Did Obi's game develop after he stepped on campus? 3.) Did AG win National coach of the year? 4.) Why does me claiming Obi was 'lightening in a bottle' allow me to continue to label AG as a coaching failure when I look so foolish doing so? 5.) Does a team of good players need a good coach to bring out the best in them? 6.) Didn't I repeatedly tell you AG as a horrible hire 6 years ago claiming he could never accomplish half the things he did in 2020? 7.) Didn't I keep reiterating these same mantras after 2018 and even louder after 2019? 8.) Did I keep telling everyone I told you so after 2020? 9.) Do other coaches I'd love to have at UD use TOs like AG, not employ the non-2 for 1 strategy, not foul late when up 3, coach their players foul 3 point shooters, coach their teams to have long draughts without a FG? Armchair Reasoning Flowchart 1) AG is a Horrible Coach 2) If AG does anything big or small to indicate he actually can coach Refer to #1 and empty your brain (it's supposed to be only of this thought not all reason and logic)

OK, we know, you've got a life size AG portrait in your living room with the fancy accent light at the top. If you're going to go down the road that leads to a mono y mono cage match with a couple of people here, you might want to consider all six seasons of AG's tenure rather than only 2020. But, that's your call.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bernard...h=3f1a3d0e5ecd

[OSU Flyer]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer 2020 taught many of us a lot. For some not so much. So which is it? A.) If an AG team does well it's all on a/the player(s) not any positive reflect on AG B.) If an AG team does poorly it's all on AG as they are his players and/or he can't coach A.) Obi was National Player of year despite AG B.) AG was National coach of the year only because of Obi A.) UD wins the players played well B.) UD loses - AG got outcoached again Questions the Armchairs should ask themselves 1.) Would Obi have been National player of the year if they had finished 26-5? 22-9? 2.) Did Obi's game develop after he stepped on campus? 3.) Did AG win National coach of the year? 4.) Why does me claiming Obi was 'lightening in a bottle' allow me to continue to label AG as a coaching failure when I look so foolish doing so? 5.) Does a team of good players need a good coach to bring out the best in them? 6.) Didn't I repeatedly tell you AG as a horrible hire 6 years ago claiming he could never accomplish half the things he did in 2020? 7.) Didn't I keep reiterating these same mantras after 2018 and even louder after 2019? 8.) Did I keep telling everyone I told you so after 2020? 9.) Do other coaches I'd love to have at UD use TOs like AG, not employ the non-2 for 1 strategy, not foul late when up 3, coach their players foul 3 point shooters, coach their teams to have long draughts without a FG? Armchair Reasoning Flowchart 1) AG is a Horrible Coach 2) If AG does anything big or small to indicate he actually can coach Refer to #1 and empty your brain (it's supposed to be only of this thought not all reason and logic)

Is making the NCAA Tournament twice in the last 12 seasons make Anthony Grant a coaching success?

All the credit in the world to AG for 2020 but you can’t hang your hat on one outlier season
Posted via Mobile Device

[OSU Flyer]

Originally Posted by CT Flyer I agree, although I thought Tshiebwe won some NPOY awards last year?

You are correct
Posted via Mobile Device

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by Jeff OK, we know, you've got a life size AG portrait in your living room with the fancy accent light at the top. If you're going to go down the road that leads to a mono y mono cage match with a couple of people here, you might want to consider all six seasons of AG's tenure rather than only 2020. But, that's your call. https://www.forbes.com/sites/bernard...h=3f1a3d0e5ecd

I am not the one making absolute statements that AG is a horrible coach and trying to prove it by painting his as a numbskull who doesn't know how a 2 for 1 works, what TOs are for ...

Then they question people's intelligence by making other absolute statements like there is reason or logic behind wanting AG as a coach.

There is plenty to like in the man and plenty of reason to see if that way if you choose to. He's done what no other UD coach has done and been on the cusp 2 years in a row now. Pretending that didn't happen or only happened because of Obi is not logical or reasonable.

You can stick to your 4/6 requirements that Neil never made or you can evaluate his ability to repeat 2020 and hopefully sustain at something close to what AM did over the next 10 years.

I simply pointed out the reason, rationale and logic used by those seeing hope vs. how the Chicken Little hyperbole fatalisic view the armchairs arrive at their drivel.

[hawkoooo]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer There is plenty to like in the man and plenty of reason to see if that way if you choose to.

Please provide examples that relate to the sport of basketball. Not being a nice guy, good rep for the program, etc.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by ud2 Having read most of the posts recently, I definitely get the feeling that even if we miss the ncaat next year, a sizeable chunk of the fan base will want to retain Coach Grant for an 8th year. We will have to see what happens in 23-24. We may end up retaining Grant for at least 8 years like SLU is apparently doing with Ford.

I love my Bengals, Reds and Flyers...and the more their coaches get BBQd by the armchair fans about strategies, play calling, etc, the more I pay attention to what other coaches do...and what I see with AG is what I see with alot of HOF coaches as well as young coaches. for example:

Did you notice that the Kansas State coach, with 15 seconds on the clock and 4.5 sec on the shot clock and down by 1, had his 5'8" (smallest player) inbound the ball? Remember how much crap AG got for having Mali inbound the ball late in the VCU game...and how so many said Mustafa should be inbounding because he's taller?

I can't list the number of Feb/March games that came down to the last seconds and 3-point leads where the coach didn't foul.

HOFer Bob Huggins sat and watched a 12-0 run w/o a TO...Mick Cronin blew a 13-point halftime lead () ; Mark Few only burned 1 time-out in the 1st half vs UCLA and went into the locker room down 13...and also didn't utilize a 2-for-1 after UCLA made a shot with 45 seconds left in the 1st half...

In other words, AG isn't on an Island by himself regarding the issues many of us point out and demand he change. Forgive me for saying this, but coaching UD basketball is probably a little more complicated than what many of you dealt with as a CYO coach. I said 'probably'...

In other words II, I rarely question AGs play calling or decisions...what I question is the lack of energy and motivation I see from the entire team. Way too often, in tight situations, it seemed like nobody was moving at greater than 75% effort. That kind of crap drives me nuts. That and the lack of nuts from 3/4 of the roster.

[TA111]

Yes, there’s a lot of CYO coaches who claim to know better than a guy who has probably forgotten more about coaching than the folks on this site will ever know.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by hawkoooo Please provide examples that relate to the sport of basketball. Not being a nice guy, good rep for the program, etc.

Can you read? Seriously. You guys ask for reasons, don't like them, so you ignore what is said and mock. That's what happens when logic isn't on your side.

Option A - AG
Option B - Hot Prospect Asst
Option C - Successful (for them) Lower Level Coach
Option D - Big Name on rebound for whatever reason (Pitino, Mack)

2 questions

1.) Who is more likely to meet your 4/6 expectations?
2.) Who is most likely to build the infrastructure to maintain for the long haul if that next
person leaves?

Option A - A guy who has already exceeded any expectations albeit just 1 season
Option B - Unproven track records as a head coach
Option C - Never proven at the level he will be at or the environment he will be in
Option D - Proven and tested but most likely using UD as a stepping stone

1 man has proven what he can do here at least once and in a way that surpassed any expectations. This one season makes AG at least as logically as likely to do it again as either unproven B or C.

Option D may provide a higher probability than AG depending on the coach but also brings the potential to repeat the 1/6 over the long haul if a better gig comes along.

It at least appears AM is in the running for and would strongly consider a gig at Providence so skipping after a year or 2 is definitely a real possibility and then we are right back where we are now.

There are no guarantees but all the anti-AG guys state or at least strongly imply that any of B-D will be better because change is needed.

If the same guys that brought the guy in you hate are making the next decisions, how much does that lessen the chances of them getting it right the next time?

Linear thinking isn't logical but is what the armchairs cases are largely built upon. There are 100s of factors to consider both if we should switch and who should we look at if we do.

[hawkoooo]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer Can you read? Seriously. You guys ask for reasons, don't like them, so you ignore what is said and mock. That's what happens when logic isn't on your side. Option A - AG Option B - Hot Prospect Asst Option C - Successful (for them) Lower Level Coach Option D - Big Name on rebound for whatever reason (Pitino, Mack) 2 questions 1.) Who is more likely to meet your 4/6 expectations? 2.) Who is most likely to build the infrastructure to maintain for the long haul if that next person leaves? Option A - A guy who has already exceeded any expectations albeit just 1 season Option B - Unproven track records as a head coach Option C - Never proven at the level he will be at or the environment he will be in Option D - Proven and tested but most likely using UD as a stepping stone 1 man has proven what he can do here at least once and in a way that surpassed any expectations. This one season makes AG at least as logically as likely to do it again as either unproven B or C. Option D may provide a higher probability than AG depending on the coach but also brings the potential to repeat the 1/6 over the long haul if a better gig comes along. It at least appears AM is in the running for and would strongly consider a gig at Providence so skipping after a year or 2 is definitely a real possibility and then we are right back where we are now. There are no guarantees but all the anti-AG guys state or at least strongly imply that any of B-D will be better because change is needed. If the same guys that brought the guy in you hate are making the next decisions, how much does that lessen the chances of them getting it right the next time? Linear thinking isn't logical but is what the armchairs cases are largely built upon. There are 100s of factors to consider both if we should switch and who should we look at if we do.

You didn't answer my question.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by hawkoooo Please provide examples that relate to the sport of basketball. Not being a nice guy, good rep for the program, etc.

So AG's 2020 team, National Coach and Player of the team is not a BB example? There isn't a single AG is a nice guy inuendo in any of what I wrote.

I know you do not want to look at it because it disproves the guys a bum belief but you can't coach a team to that level and not have what it takes to be successful here. It doesn't guarantee he can repeat it.

It just guarantees he's not the bumbler and stumbler the amrchairs state he is. I'd prefer to examine what he isn't doing to make this more the norm and see if he can change things to make it more a reality.

[hawkoooo]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer So AG's 2020 team, National Coach and Player of the team is not a BB example? There isn't a single AG is a nice guy inuendo in any of what I wrote. I know you do not want to look at it because it disproves the guys a bum belief but you can't coach a team to that level and not have what it takes to be successful here. It doesn't guarantee he can repeat it. It just guarantees he's not the bumbler and stumbler the amrchairs state he is. I'd prefer to examine what he isn't doing to make this more a reality and see if he can change things to make it more a reality.

So your answer for what you like about AG as a coach is that 2020 happened. Got it.

Here's what I don't like (see if you can note the difference in how I answer):

-slow pace, which inhibits the style of player he recruits for
-poor roster management
-not using timeouts to stop runs
-not fouling when up by 3 in end-game scenarios
-getting technical fouls because of his anger
-not controlling player's behavior on the court (trash talk, etc.)
-slowing the pace even more with big leads to allow comebacks
-not emphasizing the recruiting of guards (prefers to have more wings/bigs)

This was off the top of my head. With time to reflect I'm sure I could list more. Do you see the difference in how I answered?

[rollo]

You forgot:

Zimi's tucked in short shorts...

[NJFlyr71]

Originally Posted by rollo You forgot: Zimi's tucked in short shorts...

So any time frame for a Zimi portal entry?

[rollo]

Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 So any time frame for a Zimi portal entry?

Just like during a game, he'll be the last one in.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by hawkoooo So your answer for what you like about AG as a coach is that 2020 happened. Got it. Here's what I don't like (see if you can note the difference in how I answer): -slow pace, which inhibits the style of player he recruits for -poor roster management -not using timeouts to stop runs -not fouling when up by 3 in end-game scenarios -getting technical fouls because of his anger -not controlling player's behavior on the court (trash talk, etc.) -slowing the pace even more with big leads to allow comebacks -not emphasizing the recruiting of guards (prefers to have more wings/bigs) This was off the top of my head. With time to reflect I'm sure I could list more. Do you see the difference in how I answered?

It's results that matter. It's really simple if you just take your hate hat off and watch other successful teams.

There are coaches that use TOs or fouling up 3, or pace, or use all scholarships each year, just 7-8 core players in their rotations, similar and are legendary coaches and are very successful. The only thing that has real merit in your list is the last item on roster construction.

Trash talking? Really? Do you watch any games? Technicals? How many Ts has AG had in the 5 years prior to this year combined?

Your preferences about style and game situation philosophy matters exactly 0%. The only way any of that is pertinent is if AG is completely against most/all other successful systems which he isn't.

His offense worked just fine in 2020 when he had the players for it. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

No one with a brain was complaining in 2020 because none of the genius you think you provided mattered in that year. The team won with AGs philosophies on full display.

Examining rationally if AG's 2020 philosophies and styles were indeed perfect planetary alignment or can be repeatable at UD is perfectly fine to debate and argue about. To simply state it's wrong with zero imperative data not so much.

[Brad S.]

Originally Posted by Jeff ... mono y mono...

¿Que?

[Kool-ade Flyer]

Question for UD grads:

While Zimi's contribution has slacked (considerably), he is one year away from graduating. Assuming he is not taking a roster spot from others shouldn't y'all be rooting on him to get his UD degree?

Also, Camara had a senior day because he can get his UD degree this summer. If he leaves I hope he does so after August so he can hold his diploma high.

[Lifelong Flyer Fan]

I believe Zimi is a semester away from graduation. And yes, I would like for him to get his degree from Dayton. From all I have heard, he is a great teammate, doesn't mope on the bench and cheers his team, works hard in practice and causes no problems.

[zmz723]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer His offense worked just fine in 2020 when he had the players for it. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. .

So his offense works just fine when he has the AP player of the year and a top 10 draft pick. Got it.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Figgie123]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer I've got $20 bucks for anyone who compiles the list of teams that meet the armchairs 3/6+ consistently over a 20 year span. I'll bet a double or nothing additional $20 that the list does not exceed 30. That's at least 10 bids and at least 3 every 6 since that is how you are counting it here.

How about 32 teams?

Using 2002 tournament through 2022 tournament (ignoring this year), teams that have made it into at least 10 tournaments, and had at least 10 instances of 3 tournament in the previous 6 years (which the most would be max of 15 using only the 20 years, it's a math thing.)

Teams, number of tournaments in 20 years, and instance of 3 in 6:

         team          | tournaments | three_in_six 
-----------------------+-------------+--------------
 Arizona               |          16 |           15
 Butler                |          11 |           14
 Cincinnati            |          13 |           11
 Connecticut           |          13 |           12
 Duke                  |          19 |           15
 Florida               |          15 |           15
 Gonzaga               |          20 |           15
 Indiana               |          10 |           11
 Kansas                |          20 |           15
 Kentucky              |          17 |           15
 Louisville            |          14 |           14
 Marquette             |          13 |           12
 Maryland              |          11 |           11
 Memphis               |          11 |           11
 Michigan State        |          20 |           15
 North Carolina        |          17 |           15
 Notre Dame            |          12 |           14
 Ohio State            |          14 |           14
 Oklahoma              |          13 |           14
 Oklahoma State        |          11 |           12
 Pittsburgh            |          13 |           12
 Purdue                |          14 |           14
 San Diego State       |          11 |           11
 Syracuse              |          14 |           15
 Tennessee             |          11 |           11
 Texas                 |          17 |           15
 UCLA                  |          14 |           15
 Villanova             |          16 |           15
 Virginia Commonwealth |          12 |           12
 West Virginia         |          12 |           14
 Wisconsin             |          19 |           15
 Xavier                |          15 |           15

For reference, Dayton has 7 appearances and 5 instances of 3-in-6.

Please feel free to double-check my work.

--Figgie

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by Brad S. ¿Que?

Sí, puedes apostar tu culo que comentamos en varios idiomas.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by zmz723 So his offense works just fine when he has the AP player of the year and a top 10 draft pick. Got it. Posted via Mobile Device

Hush!

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by Figgie123 How about 32 teams? Using 2002 tournament through 2022 tournament (ignoring this year), teams that have made it into at least 10 tournaments, and had at least 10 instances of 3 tournament in the previous 6 years (which the most would be max of 15 using only the 20 years, it's a math thing.) Teams, number of tournaments in 20 years, and instance of 3 in 6: team | tournaments | three_in_six -----------------------+-------------+-------------- Arizona | 16 | 15 Butler | 11 | 14 Cincinnati | 13 | 11 Connecticut | 13 | 12 Duke | 19 | 15 Florida | 15 | 15 Gonzaga | 20 | 15 Indiana | 10 | 11 Kansas | 20 | 15 Kentucky | 17 | 15 Louisville | 14 | 14 Marquette | 13 | 12 Maryland | 11 | 11 Memphis | 11 | 11 Michigan State | 20 | 15 North Carolina | 17 | 15 Notre Dame | 12 | 14 Ohio State | 14 | 14 Oklahoma | 13 | 14 Oklahoma State | 11 | 12 Pittsburgh | 13 | 12 Purdue | 14 | 14 San Diego State | 11 | 11 Syracuse | 14 | 15 Tennessee | 11 | 11 Texas | 17 | 15 UCLA | 14 | 15 Villanova | 16 | 15 Virginia Commonwealth | 12 | 12 West Virginia | 12 | 14 Wisconsin | 19 | 15 Xavier | 15 | 15 For reference, Dayton has 7 appearances and 5 instances of 3-in-6. Please feel free to double-check my work. --Figgie

The overlords to the south and VCU made the cut....

Do more with less but think you're the same. It doesn't work that way. We aren't them...

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Kool-ade Flyer Question for UD grads: While Zimi's contribution has slacked (considerably), he is one year away from graduating. Assuming he is not taking a roster spot from others shouldn't y'all be rooting on him to get his UD degree?

If he is an upperclassmen, and he is not contributing significantly, which he didn't really do this year or last year, then yes, he is taking someone else's roster spot.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by Figgie123 How about 32 teams? Using 2002 tournament through 2022 tournament (ignoring this year), teams that have made it into at least 10 tournaments, and had at least 10 instances of 3 tournament in the previous 6 years (which the most would be max of 15 using only the 20 years, it's a math thing.) Teams, number of tournaments in 20 years, and instance of 3 in 6: team | tournaments | three_in_six -----------------------+-------------+-------------- Arizona | 16 | 15 Butler | 11 | 14 Cincinnati | 13 | 11 Connecticut | 13 | 12 Duke | 19 | 15 Florida | 15 | 15 Gonzaga | 20 | 15 Indiana | 10 | 11 Kansas | 20 | 15 Kentucky | 17 | 15 Louisville | 14 | 14 Marquette | 13 | 12 Maryland | 11 | 11 Memphis | 11 | 11 Michigan State | 20 | 15 North Carolina | 17 | 15 Notre Dame | 12 | 14 Ohio State | 14 | 14 Oklahoma | 13 | 14 Oklahoma State | 11 | 12 Pittsburgh | 13 | 12 Purdue | 14 | 14 San Diego State | 11 | 11 Syracuse | 14 | 15 Tennessee | 11 | 11 Texas | 17 | 15 UCLA | 14 | 15 Villanova | 16 | 15 Virginia Commonwealth | 12 | 12 West Virginia | 12 | 14 Wisconsin | 19 | 15 Xavier | 15 | 15 For reference, Dayton has 7 appearances and 5 instances of 3-in-6. Please feel free to double-check my work. --Figgie

Thanks I owe you $40. Let me know how to get it to you. I can hide it under a rock on the way into the arena :-) I figured 30 was about right.

I can't remember if there are 330 not or 360 as other have quoted but best case 1/11 or 9% of all D1 teams have met this.

I appreciate your stats as always and not being critical of you at all with this as it's great. It's tough to count something like this as I believe that 5 of the 7 times you reference for UD are really just a result of a single occurrence of AM's 4 straight?

That means in essence that in his 6 years here, 3 of those years AG has coached when UD has been in the tourney 3 of the last 6 years. That's half of his years which could be used to say he is meeting Neil's goals. It surely isn't the spirit of how most people would want to count it including me but shows how stats can 'lie'.

It is pretty daunting to see that the vast majority of P5 schools, who have all the advantages of scheduling and ranking lifts from their conference, fail to meet the 3/6 standard. Many/Most of those schools probably have very similar goals for their programs.

Only3 out of at least 75-100 schools similar in to UD have done it.

I am not trying to clear AG from his results with this at all. It just shows how tough it is. UD has all it needs to be able to do it. There is nothing holding them back other than themselves. One great coach that stays or assembles a coaching tree here like X did could turn things around quickly.

Thanks again for the list.

[nd134j]

His offense worked just fine in 2020 when he had the players for it. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Whether you intended it that way or not the above quote goes a long way towards defining what those who want AG gone are upset about. 2020 was incredible - the pieces all fit perfectly, everyone bought into their role and had the skill set to execute it flawlessly night in and night out. It was a well-oiled machine and just an incredible pleasure to watch in person.

Since then.... not so much. Good coaches have a proven system that when executed as intended will produce the desired results (wins). GREAT coaches are able to adapt their proven system to maximize the talent (or lack there of) they actually have on their roster. If you have really watched the in-game execution since 2020, more often than not you are watching pieces that don't fit the system they are being forced to execute. It doesn't mean there isn't success in individual games or for stretches of games, but it is like watching the Bengals backup QB execute an offense designed for Joe Burrow. Your offense may be unstoppable with Joe Burrow, but if you don't have him, you better figure out Plan B,C,D... quickly. Our Joe Burrow left for the Knicks 3 years ago......

I'm an AG fan and was happy when he was hired. With his prior recruiting success at Florida, his NBA experience and his connection to UD I saw him as someone who could build something at UD and then want to stick around and enjoy the success. I admire his commitment to the program and my heart truly aches for what he and his family have endured over the past year.

However, I am ready for the program to move on. To me he has not shown that he can build a roster that can consistently execute his offense nor the self-awareness, ability or desire to adapt when it is obvious Plan A isn't working.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by nd134j His offense worked just fine in 2020 when he had the players for it. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Whether you intended it that way or not the above quote goes a long way towards defining what those who want AG gone are upset about. 2020 was incredible - the pieces all fit perfectly, everyone bought into their role and had the skill set to execute it flawlessly night in and night out. It was a well-oiled machine and just an incredible pleasure to watch in person. Since then.... not so much. Good coaches have a proven system that when executed as intended will produce the desired results (wins). GREAT coaches are able to adapt their proven system to maximize the talent (or lack there of) they actually have on their roster. If you have really watched the in-game execution since 2020, more often than not you are watching pieces that don't fit the system they are being forced to execute. It doesn't mean there isn't success in individual games or for stretches of games, but it is like watching the Bengals backup QB execute an offense designed for Joe Burrow. Your offense may be unstoppable with Joe Burrow, but if you don't have him, you better figure out Plan B,C,D... quickly. Our Joe Burrow left for the Knicks 3 years ago...... I'm an AG fan and was happy when he was hired. With his prior recruiting success at Florida, his NBA experience and his connection to UD I saw him as someone who could build something at UD and then want to stick around and enjoy the success. I admire his commitment to the program and my heart truly aches for what he and his family have endured over the past year. However, I am ready for the program to move on. To me he has not shown that he can build a roster that can consistently execute his offense nor the self-awareness, ability or desire to adapt when it is obvious Plan A isn't working.

I get it and agree with a lot of what you say and what I don’t agree with I can certainly see why others do. My perspective is really based mainly on 2 points.

1. AG has proven he can do it here. Almost any other likely coach will not have that so there is a lot of risk of more of the same with the next guy no matter how good he looks on paper. This is magnified even more if he were a first time head coach. It’s easy to think in Fantasy land about what Pitino or Mack could do here but the likelihood of an established coach like that is not very high.

To me that provides AG a cushion of patience to find the magic again over the risk of hiring someone who hasn’t proven that yet.

2. I see the last 2 years differently. Intentionally or not, AG had a core of young guys that looked good to him and the hope was they’d develop into a core that could gain multiple bids like AMs team.

After 4 games in 2021, this plan looked really good. This season went the other direction and we don’t know for sure why. Injuries, talent?, internal issues?, coaching, roster construction are likely all factors.

I think so much has changed that old school ways of loyalty, 4 year guys etc just aren’t going to work very often anymore. To be successful you have to see the change and be out in front of it.

I’m fine with 1 more year to see if AG will adjust his set in stone ways or not. If Neil came out today and said he’s gone I’d be fine with it as well.

Basically I’m not going to worry and stress about things like this that are out of my control. If the kids and the coaches represent the U well then I’ll support whoever is on the team and the coach. That doesn’t mean I’m happy with everything I see or blind to issues and problems that do exist. I’m just not going to pretend that UD is the only place where these problems exist.
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[ud2]

Originally Posted by rollo I love my Bengals, Reds and Flyers...and the more their coaches get BBQd by the armchair fans about strategies, play calling, etc, the more I pay attention to what other coaches do...and what I see with AG is what I see with alot of HOF coaches as well as young coaches. for example: Did you notice that the Kansas State coach, with 15 seconds on the clock and 4.5 sec on the shot clock and down by 1, had his 5'8" (smallest player) inbound the ball? Remember how much crap AG got for having Mali inbound the ball late in the VCU game...and how so many said Mustafa should be inbounding because he's taller? I can't list the number of Feb/March games that came down to the last seconds and 3-point leads where the coach didn't foul. HOFer Bob Huggins sat and watched a 12-0 run w/o a TO...Mick Cronin blew a 13-point halftime lead () ; Mark Few only burned 1 time-out in the 1st half vs UCLA and went into the locker room down 13...and also didn't utilize a 2-for-1 after UCLA made a shot with 45 seconds left in the 1st half... In other words, AG isn't on an Island by himself regarding the issues many of us point out and demand he change. Forgive me for saying this, but coaching UD basketball is probably a little more complicated than what many of you dealt with as a CYO coach. I said 'probably'... In other words II, I rarely question AGs play calling or decisions...what I question is the lack of energy and motivation I see from the entire team. Way too often, in tight situations, it seemed like nobody was moving at greater than 75% effort. That kind of crap drives me nuts. That and the lack of nuts from 3/4 of the roster.

I have not made these type of complaints about Grant, you have me confused with somebody else.

The King is in cognitive decline.

[Figgie123]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer I appreciate your stats as always and not being critical of you at all with this as it's great. It's tough to count something like this as I believe that 5 of the 7 times you reference for UD are really just a result of a single occurrence of AM's 4 straight? That means in essence that in his 6 years here, 3 of those years AG has coached when UD has been in the tourney 3 of the last 6 years. That's half of his years which could be used to say he is meeting Neil's goals. It surely isn't the spirit of how most people would want to count it including me but shows how stats can 'lie'.

Yes, you are absolutely correct that the 3 tournaments every 6 years definitely gaps across coaches. But, again, these are for teams and not coaches.

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer It is pretty daunting to see that the vast majority of P5 schools, who have all the advantages of scheduling and ranking lifts from their conference, fail to meet the 3/6 standard. Many/Most of those schools probably have very similar goals for their programs. Only3 out of at least 75-100 schools similar in to UD have done it.

Yes, this shows how tough it is to meet 10 in 20, and a good amount of 3 in 6's. If you can dominate your conference consistently, that seems to be a key to getting on this list.

--Figgie

[rollo]

Originally Posted by ud2 I have not made these type of complaints about Grant, you have me confused with somebody else. The King is in cognitive decline.

Don’t flatter yourself…those comments weren’t directed at you.
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[steve]

Originally Posted by zmz723 So his offense works just fine when he has the AP player of the year and a top 10 draft pick. Got it. Posted via Mobile Device

But the irony is his offense didn't work just fine in 2020. I recount many many times they were stagnant in their offense with lack of movement but they had a 6'9" player of the Year down there to bail them out when they would throw the ball up to the rim when the shot clock was dwindling down and he also had a tremendous shooter that also threw up many many deep threes when the shot clock was well inside 5 seconds.

[steve]

Originally Posted by rollo Don’t flatter yourself…those comments weren’t directed at you. Posted via Mobile Device

You say you don't worry about the type of plays Grant runs and his offense but you take offense to lack of effort by his players. Is that on offense, defense or both? Because when you run a stagnant offense with guys standing around for 25 to 30 seconds of the clock along with the ball fighting itself way too many times 30 feet from the basket it ain't easy just to pick up and get energy.

[rollo]

I’m talking about transition hustle. Just your basic running up and down the court. Can you or anyone else recall any instance where any player was winded? Like grab your shorts and bend over exhausted? I can’t.
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[zmz723]

Originally Posted by steve But the irony is his offense didn't work just fine in 2020. I recount many many times they were stagnant in their offense with lack of movement but they had a 6'9" player of the Year down there to bail them out when they would throw the ball up to the rim when the shot clock was dwindling down and he also had a tremendous shooter that also threw up many many deep threes when the shot clock was well inside 5 seconds.

Very true.

It definitely helps AG’s legacy that the 2020 tourney was cancelled. Him coaching a close game late in the 2nd half in the NCAA tournament would probably be a disaster
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[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by zmz723 Very true. It definitely helps AG’s legacy that the 2020 tourney was cancelled. Him coaching a close game late in the 2nd half in the NCAA tournament would probably be a disaster Posted via Mobile Device

Yep, and it would've probably been in the 2nd round to the 8 or 9 seed Indiana Hoosiers. Their coach has a history of putting the smackdown as underdog on AG.

[rollo]

Or My Team might have won the whole darn thing, much to the dismay of the AM brigade.
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[Fudd]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Yep, and it would've probably been in the 2nd round to the 8 or 9 seed Indiana Hoosiers. Their coach has a history of putting the smackdown as underdog on AG.

You may not have noticed, but AG coached a masterpiece of a season that year, resulting in the National Coach of the Year Award. Anything can happen in the NCAA Tournament, but that was a legit team with the pedigree to go far in the tournament. It was no mistake that they were a 1 seed.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Fudd You may not have noticed, but AG coached a masterpiece of a season that year, resulting in the National Coach of the Year Award. Anything can happen in the NCAA Tournament, but that was a legit team with the pedigree to go far in the tournament. It was no mistake that they were a 1 seed.

I was there. I remember. And to be honest, I don't believe for one minute that team was really one of the 4 best in the country. Anytime they went against a big burly inside scorer they had trouble and that would've been magnified in the Dance. The 18-0 in the A10 was very impressive but what that means is they didn't have any let down trap games, that says a lot.

But their only impressive game against a top ranked opponent was vs Kansas and they did lose in OT after getting beat to death on the inside for Kansas to come back on them. Colorado was ranked 25th when they played and Dayton was supposed to beat them but that game became an Anthony Grant specialty as they pi-ssed away a 14 point lead. That was terrible as any team can have overconfidence and lose a game, but the let down shouldn't happen against the team that knocked you out of the NIT the previous season and has a PG that turned up his nose at playing for AG. And Colorado never did hold on to staying close to the top 25 afterward.

The Flyers schedule was pretty easy that season and while they certainly were ranked worthy, if they would've played a season stacked with P5+ on their schedule, maybe 6 or more like AM usually had, we would probably be talking about something in the 10th to 15th range.

[Chris R]

Originally Posted by steve But the irony is his offense didn't work just fine in 2020. I recount many many times they were stagnant in their offense with lack of movement but they had a 6'9" player of the Year down there to bail them out when they would throw the ball up to the rim when the shot clock was dwindling down and he also had a tremendous shooter that also threw up many many deep threes when the shot clock was well inside 5 seconds.

So the offense scored pretty much any time it wanted or needed to and had one of the highest scoring efficiencies in the nation, had one of the highest margins of victory in the nation, but it wasn't stylistic enough for you?

Originally Posted by zmz723 Very true. It definitely helps AG’s legacy that the 2020 tourney was cancelled. Him coaching a close game late in the 2nd half in the NCAA tournament would probably be a disaster Posted via Mobile Device

Revisionist history. There wasn't a soul on this forum that publicly commented that we'd probably be 2nd Rd exits before the NCAA tournament was canceled or even after it was canceled because of Anthony Grant's coaching. Nobody was complaining about shot clock problems, substitution patterns, or timeouts. The consensus was we were as good as anybody in the country and we were friggin' robbed at a good chance at a Final Four. Computer models had us making the national title game. We had the best player in the country and if you want to make a deep run, you need a stud. Nobody here felt like the March Madness cancellation saved us from pending embarrassment. It was just the opposite. Pretty much every fan here that decided to put fingers to their keyboard lamented what they perceived as the most unmerciful injustice in the history of UD athletics and maybe the NCAA Tourney because of the rug that was pulled out. There weren't any, "Well look on the bright side...we were probably gonna lose to a #9 seed in the 2nd Rd anyway because Grant can't coach" posts anywhere to be found.

You can rewrite history in your own head, but that's as far as it metastasizes. Your disapproval for Grant's performance this season -- even if completely justified -- has claimed so much bitterness and free rent in your head that it's now redefining the 29-2 season as something less than it was or could have been had it been properly played out. Don't do that to that team or those players. It makes you look small, resentful, and incapable of fair-minded optimism.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Chris R So the offense scored pretty much any time it wanted or needed to and had one of the highest scoring efficiencies in the nation, had one of the highest margins of victory in the nation, but it wasn't stylistic enough for you? Revisionist history. There wasn't a soul on this forum that publicly commented that we'd probably be 2nd Rd exits before the NCAA tournament was canceled or even after it was canceled because of Anthony Grant's coaching. Nobody was complaining about shot clock problems, substitution patterns, or timeouts. The consensus was we were as good as anybody in the country and we were friggin' robbed at a good chance at a Final Four. Computer models had us making the national title game. We had the best player in the country and if you want to make a deep run, you need a stud. Nobody here felt like the March Madness cancellation saved us from pending embarrassment. It was just the opposite. Pretty much every fan here that decided to put fingers to their keyboard lamented what they perceived as the most unmerciful injustice in the history of UD athletics and maybe the NCAA Tourney because of the rug that was pulled out. There weren't any, "Well look on the bright side...we were probably gonna lose to a #9 seed in the 2nd Rd anyway because Grant can't coach" posts anywhere to be found. You can rewrite history in your own head, but that's as far as it metastasizes. Your disapproval for Grant's performance this season -- even if completely justified -- has claimed so much bitterness and free rent in your head that it's now redefining the 29-2 season as something less than it was or could have been had it been properly played out. Don't do that to that team or those players. It makes you look small, resentful, and incapable of fair-minded optimism.

lmao. If the UMass-Lowell, Lipscomb and Austin Peay games of last season had all been cancelled due to Covid or something, you'd be lecturing any and all that would in hindsight say "The Flyers would've lost at least one of those games" let alone all three. And everybody here would ridicule that person. Thankfully those games were played, AG's been handed enough cancelled game wins as is by all the pollyannas on this site.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

[Monster Man]

Thanks Chris for completely destroying this small-minded, hateful, and resentful rhetoric.
Well done!

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by Monster Man Thanks Chris for completely destroying this small-minded, hateful, and resentful rhetoric. Well done!

And speaking of revisionist history- most prognosticators had IU as at best an 11 seed, playing a play in game at UD arena- I know Lunardi did. And having finished the Big10 with a 9-11 tied for 10th in the conference, IU really shouldn’t have been in at all.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 And speaking of revisionist history- most prognosticators had IU as at best an 11 seed, playing a play in game at UD arena- I know Lunardi did. And having finished the Big10 with a 9-11 tied for 10th in the conference, IU really shouldn’t have been in at all.

Fair enough, I agree about middling p5's unjustly getting into the ncaat, but that crap happens every year, IU was going to make the ncaat that year, it is what it is. Torvik had them as a 10 seed.

[TX Flyer]

Originally Posted by Chris R So the offense scored pretty much any time it wanted or needed to and had one of the highest scoring efficiencies in the nation, had one of the highest margins of victory in the nation, but it wasn't stylistic enough for you? Revisionist history. There wasn't a soul on this forum that publicly commented that we'd probably be 2nd Rd exits before the NCAA tournament was canceled or even after it was canceled because of Anthony Grant's coaching. Nobody was complaining about shot clock problems, substitution patterns, or timeouts. The consensus was we were as good as anybody in the country and we were friggin' robbed at a good chance at a Final Four. Computer models had us making the national title game. We had the best player in the country and if you want to make a deep run, you need a stud. Nobody here felt like the March Madness cancellation saved us from pending embarrassment. It was just the opposite. Pretty much every fan here that decided to put fingers to their keyboard lamented what they perceived as the most unmerciful injustice in the history of UD athletics and maybe the NCAA Tourney because of the rug that was pulled out. There weren't any, "Well look on the bright side...we were probably gonna lose to a #9 seed in the 2nd Rd anyway because Grant can't coach" posts anywhere to be found. You can rewrite history in your own head, but that's as far as it metastasizes. Your disapproval for Grant's performance this season -- even if completely justified -- has claimed so much bitterness and free rent in your head that it's now redefining the 29-2 season as something less than it was or could have been had it been properly played out. Don't do that to that team or those players. It makes you look small, resentful, and incapable of fair-minded optimism.

We have no idea if we would have made the FF or lost first round. Arguing one way or the other is pointless. You can’t say he is justified in one breath and then put him down in another.

Originally Posted by Monster Man Thanks Chris for completely destroying this small-minded, hateful, and resentful rhetoric. Well done!

I’m glad you also are small-minded, hateful, and spew resentful rhetoric as you hide behind the admin of the board.

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 And speaking of revisionist history- most prognosticators had IU as at best an 11 seed, playing a play in game at UD arena- I know Lunardi did. And having finished the Big10 with a 9-11 tied for 10th in the conference, IU really shouldn’t have been in at all.

I’m starting to think you have a man crush on AM. Stop bringing up indiana in every conversation. Nobody but you cares.

[Fudd]

I don't care how anyone else remembers it. I was also there every game @ home and think peanut butter and jam were darn near unstoppable. And they had a good supporting cast who could shoot and spread the floor. Best UD team of my lifetime, by a long shot.

There is not a soul who can revise what I witnessed. I believe some fans are "on tilt" after this disappointing season, but it does not change 2019.

[flybye]

Archie was a terrific coach and Grant will get us to an even higher level! Tide will turn this year!! Dayton would have been a final four and of healthy would have made NCAA the last 2 years ..
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[rollo]

I think we need a Poll...ud2...have you ever started one? The small minds are craving another!

[ud2]

Originally Posted by rollo I think we need a Poll...ud2...have you ever started one? The small minds are craving another!

Sure King Super Rollo, somebody can do a poll about win/loss/postseason expectations for the 2023-2024 season, but let's wait another 5.5 months after we have brought in some more recruits, the schedule has been released, and anything else has happened, I don't feel like there is anything left to poll right now.

I think all of us are just about ready for a long offseason's nap after a long, tough season. The top 144 countdown begins in only 84 days!

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by Fudd I don't care how anyone else remembers it. I was also there every game @ home and think peanut butter and jam were darn near unstoppable. And they had a good supporting cast who could shoot and spread the floor. Best UD team of my lifetime, by a long shot. There is not a soul who can revise what I witnessed. I believe some fans are "on tilt" after this disappointing season, but it does not change 2019.

Spot on! I’ll always remember the team and the coach that provided the greatest season ever. My only regret other than the tourney being cancelled is that I had to cancel my trip to FL for the holiday tourney.

We had tickets for every round and fully expected to use them. That team was every bit as good as any of the 4 that remain this year.
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[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by TX Flyer I’m starting to think you have a man crush on AM. Stop bringing up indiana in every conversation. Nobody but you cares.

Just setting the record straight with actual facts. I’m starting to think some of you are actually related to AM.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Yep, and it would've probably been in the 2nd round to the 8 or 9 seed Indiana Hoosiers. Their coach has a history of putting the smackdown as underdog on AG.

It could've happened. Maybe IU would've won some games in the Big Ten tourney to move up to a 8 or 9.

Or Dayton gets a 2, IU gets a 10, IU beats a 7 in the first round, so a 2 vs. 10 2nd round game.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 And speaking of revisionist history- most prognosticators had IU as at best an 11 seed, playing a play in game at UD arena- I know Lunardi did. And having finished the Big10 with a 9-11 tied for 10th in the conference, IU really shouldn’t have been in at all.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200329...ketmatrix.com/

IU was included in 95 of 97 brackets on the bracket matrix that year, the matrix had them as a 10 seed, they were definitely getting in that year.

The bracket matrix had Dayton as the last 1 seed.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 I’m starting to think some of you are actually related to AM.

No, I am not related to Archie, but Archie brought sustained levels of success that this program has not seen since the 1960's and hasn't seen since he left and may not see ever again if the A10 doesn't get its act together, and we don't get into the Big East.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by ud2 It could've happened. Maybe IU would've won some games in the Big Ten tourney to move up to a 8 or 9. Or Dayton gets a 2, IU gets a 10, IU beats a 7 in the first round, so a 2 vs. 10 2nd round game.

Yep, they could've been a 10 seed(or 11) and like normally happens, the lock of the A10 doesn't win the conference tournament and Dayton slides to a 2 or even a 3.

[Fudd]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Yep, they could've been a 10 seed(or 11) and like normally happens, the lock of the A10 doesn't win the conference tournament and Dayton slides to a 2 or even a 3.

We were 18-0 in the A10 with an average win margin of 14 points. We won on the road, even when we were having a bad night. We simply dominated.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Fudd We were 18-0 in the A10 with an average win margin of 14 points. We won on the road, even when we were having a bad night. We simply dominated.

Yeah, what' your point? A lot of teams go into conference tournaments with less to gain then others and get beat. And being 18-0 regular season in the A10 isn't enough to hold your position in overall rankings with a loss in the conference tournament?

BTW, do you think it was a lock that we would've beaten SLU in the conference tournament? We beat them by 1 with a buzzer beater in OT at their place and beat them by 6 at home.

Also, I firmly believe that the A10 and other conferences have some, uhh say suggestions, to the Refs of those tournament games like "It would be nice if we can get one of our teams an auto-bid that isn't a lock into the NCAA if it's close at the end." Now, I can see the A10 having a different motive too that they would love to have a #1 seed in the dance, so what's in the conference's best interest could go either way.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[zmz723]

Originally Posted by Chris R So the offense scored pretty much any time it wanted or needed to and had one of the highest scoring efficiencies in the nation, had one of the highest margins of victory in the nation, but it wasn't stylistic enough for you? Revisionist history. There wasn't a soul on this forum that publicly commented that we'd probably be 2nd Rd exits before the NCAA tournament was canceled or even after it was canceled because of Anthony Grant's coaching. Nobody was complaining about shot clock problems, substitution patterns, or timeouts. The consensus was we were as good as anybody in the country and we were friggin' robbed at a good chance at a Final Four. Computer models had us making the national title game. We had the best player in the country and if you want to make a deep run, you need a stud. Nobody here felt like the March Madness cancellation saved us from pending embarrassment. It was just the opposite. Pretty much every fan here that decided to put fingers to their keyboard lamented what they perceived as the most unmerciful injustice in the history of UD athletics and maybe the NCAA Tourney because of the rug that was pulled out. There weren't any, "Well look on the bright side...we were probably gonna lose to a #9 seed in the 2nd Rd anyway because Grant can't coach" posts anywhere to be found. You can rewrite history in your own head, but that's as far as it metastasizes. Your disapproval for Grant's performance this season -- even if completely justified -- has claimed so much bitterness and free rent in your head that it's now redefining the 29-2 season as something less than it was or could have been had it been properly played out. Don't do that to that team or those players. It makes you look small, resentful, and incapable of fair-minded optimism.

You completely missed my point. The 2020 team had every single piece to make a national title run. But the last 3 years (and AG’s entire career minus when he had the NPOY) has shown that he’s an awful coach in close games and in the tournament. Both in the NCAA and the A-10 tourneys
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[zmz723]

Originally Posted by TX Flyer I’m glad you also are small-minded, hateful, and spew resentful rhetoric as you hide behind the admin of the board. .

Nobody loves mediocrity like monster man. NIT appearances are a success for him
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[podcast411]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 I was there. I remember. And to be honest, I don't believe for one minute that team was really one of the 4 best in the country. Anytime they went against a big burly inside scorer they had trouble and that would've been magnified in the Dance. The 18-0 in the A10 was very impressive but what that means is they didn't have any let down trap games, that says a lot. But their only impressive game against a top ranked opponent was vs Kansas and they did lose in OT after getting beat to death on the inside for Kansas to come back on them. Colorado was ranked 25th when they played and Dayton was supposed to beat them but that game became an Anthony Grant specialty as they pi-ssed away a 14 point lead. That was terrible as any team can have overconfidence and lose a game, but the let down shouldn't happen against the team that knocked you out of the NIT the previous season and has a PG that turned up his nose at playing for AG. And Colorado never did hold on to staying close to the top 25 afterward. The Flyers schedule was pretty easy that season and while they certainly were ranked worthy, if they would've played a season stacked with P5+ on their schedule, maybe 6 or more like AM usually had, we would probably be talking about something in the 10th to 15th range.

WTF - wow you really are delusional.

When AG’s offense is run by players that buy in - it is a beautiful thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT8ozvgKHEM

Watch this again (or for the first time) - get some tissues as it will remind you how good we were that season.

Watch the part where they took about how good that offense was.

Just watch the video - and understand the offensive scheme AG put together was a thing of beauty and better than anything of any other Dayton coach in the last 50 plus years - and one of the best all time overall in all of college hoops.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by podcast411 WTF - wow you really are delusional. When AG’s offense is run by players that buy in - it is a beautiful thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT8ozvgKHEM Watch this again (or for the first time) - get some tissues as it will remind you how good we were that season. Watch the part where they took about how good that offense was. Just watch the video - and understand the offensive scheme AG put together was a thing of beauty and better than anything of any other Dayton coach in the last 50 plus years - and one of the best all time overall in all of college hoops.

I'm looking for the part where they beat a top 30 team, couldn't find it.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by ud2 https://web.archive.org/web/20200329...ketmatrix.com/ IU was included in 95 of 97 brackets on the bracket matrix that year, the matrix had them as a 10 seed, they were definitely getting in that year. The bracket matrix had Dayton as the last 1 seed.

Yeah, I looked at that matrix, IU was listed there as an average 10.17 seed from over 100 bracket predictors, that essentially eliminates them from being a 9 or 8 seed.

Dayton, was predicted as a 1.08 seed from those same 100; highly likely indicating to me, they'd be a 1 seed. IU and Dayton were not going to meet in that tournament, period.

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by podcast411 WTF - wow you really are delusional. When AG’s offense is run by players that buy in - it is a beautiful thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT8ozvgKHEM Watch this again (or for the first time) - get some tissues as it will remind you how good we were that season. Watch the part where they took about how good that offense was. Just watch the video - and understand the offensive scheme AG put together was a thing of beauty and better than anything of any other Dayton coach in the last 50 plus years - and one of the best all time overall in all of college hoops.

So players haven't bought in 5 of his 6 years?

[ud2]

Originally Posted by podcast411 WTF - wow you really are delusional. When AG’s offense is run by players that buy in - it is a beautiful thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT8ozvgKHEM Watch this again (or for the first time) - get some tissues as it will remind you how good we were that season. Watch the part where they took about how good that offense was. Just watch the video - and understand the offensive scheme AG put together was a thing of beauty and better than anything of any other Dayton coach in the last 50 plus years - and one of the best all time overall in all of college hoops.

That video is all fine and good, we had a great offense that year, but clearly something has gone wrong since then, correct? We can't keep Grant for forever if he doesn't get things turned around at some point.

How often has a team had a highly ranked offense like this, and then missed the ncaat for the next three years in a row?

[steve]

Originally Posted by m21eagle45 So players haven't bought in 5 of his 6 years?

I wouldn't say they didn't buy in last year with the youngest roster in the NCAA and needing only a W over Richmond in just the semi-final to get into the tourney.He had that team playing their ass off after the first 3-4 games of the year. If you want to fire him over a late loss to LaSalle then you might as well not have a coach because teams lose games all the time when any team, let alone one with freshman is caight napping, shots don't fall like they did earlier in a game, on the road, etc.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

[CT Flyer]

Originally Posted by podcast411 WTF - wow you really are delusional. When AG’s offense is run by players that buy in - it is a beautiful thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT8ozvgKHEM Watch this again (or for the first time) - get some tissues as it will remind you how good we were that season. Watch the part where they took about how good that offense was. Just watch the video - and understand the offensive scheme AG put together was a thing of beauty and better than anything of any other Dayton coach in the last 50 plus years - and one of the best all time overall in all of college hoops.

So we are recruiting players that don't buy in now?

[ud2]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 Yeah, I looked at that matrix, IU was listed there as an average 10.17 seed from over 100 bracket predictors, that essentially eliminates them from being a 9 or 8 seed. Dayton, was predicted as a 1.08 seed from those same 100; highly likely indicating to me, they'd be a 1 seed. IU and Dayton were not going to meet in that tournament, period.

That matrix wasn't final, IU could've improved from a 10, I would say a 10 was their floor, I don't know what their ceiling was. How much would their seed improve had they won the Big Ten tournament?

San Diego State was right behind Dayton, I suppose SDSU could've moved up to a 1 with Dayton dropping to a 2 if Dayton did not do well in the A10T, and SDSU did well in the Mountain West tournament.

It seems like teams almost always don't drop hardly at all based upon how they do in their conference tourney. But teams do sometimes improve their seed based on a good performance in their conference tourney.

[TXFlyerFan]

Originally Posted by steve I wouldn't say they didn't buy in last year with the youngest roster in the NCAA and needing only a W over Richmond in just the semi-final to get into the tourney.He had that team playing their ass off after the first 3-4 games of the year. If you want to fire him over a late loss to LaSalle then you might as well not have a coach because teams lose games all the time when any team, let alone one with freshman is caight napping, shots don't fall like they did earlier in a game, on the road, etc.

Ah yes, the old "youngest roster" and "if only we had beat Richmond". Who, I wonder, was responsible for having the youngest roster and not building/maintaining momentum from 2020? Who didn't have the team prepared to not lose three home buy games? People want to give him credit for a "turnaround" without assigning any blame for why we were in that spot in the first place. Sure, the team improved, dramatically. That we ever had to in the first place is a major issue that no one will seemingly address.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by ud2 That matrix wasn't final, IU could've improved from a 10, I would say a 10 was their floor, I don't know what their ceiling was. How much would their seed improve had they won the Big Ten tournament? San Diego State was right behind Dayton, I suppose SDSU could've moved up to a 1 with Dayton dropping to a 2 if Dayton did not do well in the A10T, and SDSU did well in the Mountain West tournament. It seems like teams almost always don't drop hardly at all based upon how they do in their conference tourney. But teams do sometimes improve their seed based on a good performance in their conference tourney.

Unless IU had outright won the Big10 tourney, I doubt they'd moved up much.

Dayton had a 20 game winning streak, the longest in the nation at that point. I know the year that St. Joes was highly ranked (04) and I think was undefeated going into the A10 tourney - they lost to X in the final and still was a number 1 seed. I'm pretty confident even if UD had lost in the A10 tourney, they'd probably have stayed a 1. The four top seeds were pretty well set in stone in 2020.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 Unless IU had outright won the Big10 tourney, I doubt they'd moved up much. Dayton had a 20 game winning streak, the longest in the nation at that point. I know the year that St. Joes was highly ranked (04) and I think was undefeated going into the A10 tourney - they lost to X in the final and still was a number 1 seed. I'm pretty confident even if UD had lost in the A10 tourney, they'd probably have stayed a 1. The four top seeds were pretty well set in stone in 2020.

No, I don't think that is correct. I ran the Torvik teamcast. IU beat Nebraska in the first round of the Big Ten tournament. If they had beaten Penn State and Maryland, who were their next two opponents, then they already got moved up to a 9 seed. Had they won the Big Ten tournament, I guess they probably would've been an 8 or a 7.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020...nament#Bracket

IU beat Nebraska on Wednesday March 11, iinm everything in the college basketball world nationwide was shut down on Thursday March 12 due to covid.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 Unless IU had outright won the Big10 tourney, I doubt they'd moved up much. Dayton had a 20 game winning streak, the longest in the nation at that point. I know the year that St. Joes was highly ranked (04) and I think was undefeated going into the A10 tourney - they lost to X in the final and still was a number 1 seed. I'm pretty confident even if UD had lost in the A10 tourney, they'd probably have stayed a 1. The four top seeds were pretty well set in stone in 2020.

And I ran the teamcast for Dayton. 1 seed Dayton was set to play the winner of 8 seed VCU vs. 9 seed UMass in the A10T. Had Dayton lost to either VCU or UMass, then they dropped to a 2 seed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020...nament#Bracket

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

[ud2]

And playing the teamcast out further, had Dayton beaten VCU, who was rated better than UMass, then had Dayton beaten 4 seed SLU, and then had Dayton lost to 2 seed Richmond in the A10T final, Dayton still drops to a 2 seed. SDSU and Michigan State were apparently right behind us.

Dayton actually moved down to the 2nd 2 seed, behind Kansas, Baylor, Gonzaga, SDSU, and Michigan State in one of the teamcasts.

We were apparently still fighting with SDSU and Michigan State for final positioning.

Of course, Kansas or Baylor or Gonzaga or SDSU or Michigan State all could have done poorly in their conference tourneys, which would negatively impact them.

The point is that everything was still in flux, we will never know how it all would have turned out.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.