2015-16 Starting 5 and Depth chart

[San Diego Flyer]

Over the years as a general rule we couldn't trust the height that was printed. Not sure why the weight would now be any different. The NBA tryouts seemed like the only place that measurement were truly accurate. Seemed like it was Archie that said he would like to see Dyshawn and Kendall play a bit lighter this season. Why on earth would they show up collectively over 35 lbs heavier than last year? After only 90 days from the season's end. IF those weights are even close to being accurate, it's doubtful that the extra pounds are more than summer pizzas. And not their target playing weight for next season.

Just sayin'.

[Swampy Meadows]

DP showed up last season listed at 242 after enduring some injuries that hampered his ability to workout. Archie alluded to this in interviews. Maybe they just haven't changed it since then

[FLYER5]

I assume Davis's current weight is udated since the others are. I think he was squeezing about ten pounds into that 168 prep weight. He was really thin as has been noted. It's probably hard for kids of slight stature to abruptly start putting pounds on, especially after 17 years of being super skinny.

[bcross]

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer Over the years as a general rule we couldn't trust the height that was printed. Not sure why the weight would now be any different. The NBA tryouts seemed like the only place that measurement were truly accurate. Seemed like it was Archie that said he would like to see Dyshawn and Kendall play a bit lighter this season. Why on earth would they show up collectively over 35 lbs heavier than last year? After only 90 days from the season's end. IF those weights are even close to being accurate, it's doubtful that the extra pounds are more than summer pizzas. And not their target playing weight for next season. Just sayin'.

Their previous listed weights weren't from 90 days ago, they were from last summer? when they were last updated. This is more a reflection on the weight they actually played at last season.

[Alberto Strasse]

is that he finds a way to lose 35 lbs. We do not want him becoming Sir Charles.

[sheg]

Yes, that would be horrible.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by Alberto Strasse is that he finds a way to lose 35 lbs. We do not want him becoming Sir Charles.

Pollard isn't gaining fat, he's gaining strength...to inflict pain.

Rollo knows pain.

Rollo loves pain.

I don't care how much he weighs as it only helps us.

All Hail Sir Kendall Pollard! A permanent and honorary member of my Royal Roundtable!

[jack72]

KP's quickness is very good. Hate to see a kid lose weight and not be able to bump and grind with the bigs.

[Bat'71]

"...bump and grind..." on a B-Ball court? I hope not! Mix it up, maybe, but not bump and grind...that's for the dance floor.

[fuz_forward]

Originally Posted by sheg Yes, that would be horrible.

No. That would be "terrible".

[FLYER5]

Originally Posted by fuz_forward No. That would be "terrible".

Turrible, bruh...
If KP loses 35 lbs then I hope he is at 260 when he starts. 20 is a lot. I don't have any question about the staff's wishes for his development. I just never saw Velvet in KP like some here have suggested. Sir Charles, bro's, is the body type I envisioned for the lad. Either way, he will probably go down as the most physical offensive player I have seen here. I wish DP had his motor.

[BRob2Perryman3]

Here's food for thought NO ONE saw coming,

Is Kendall Pollard our best player? After distancing myself from last year and thinking about it, i think so.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 Here's food for thought NO ONE saw coming, Is Kendall Pollard our best player? After distancing myself from last year and thinking about it, i think so.

No, no way, not even close. Just compared to Pierre:

3P shooting: Pierre
FT shooting: Pierre
Post scoring: Pierre
Ball handling: Pierre
Rebounding: tie, maybe Pollard based on athleticism
Defense: Pierre
Shot blocking: Pollard
Finishing on the break: Pollard
Passing: Pierre

Don't be a "dunk-bigot." Just because Pollard is really athletic and powerful doesn't mean he's our "best" player.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by FLYER5 I wish DP had his motor.

Agree.

[TerryK_67]

I don't think there is anything wrong with DP's "motor". He is just a totally different personality than Kendal, and expresses himself is a totally different manner.

[Medford]

I'd take both Scoochie & Pierre over Pollard, and I love Pollard.

The only fault I see in Scoochie is that at times he hesitates to "take over the game". He's proven on multiple occasions that he can just flat out take over a game with his dribble penetration and long range shooting, but at times I wish he'd start doing 4 or 5 possessions earlier. I suppose in the long run, its better for your PG to be patient and attempt to get everyone else into the flow, but sometimes I wish he'd just be a bit more selfish, hard to complain about that though; we've all remember a selfish PG a few seasons back.

Pierre has a ton of "old school" game in him. How many players have you seen make shot from their butt? or with their pants hanging around their ankles? Despite not having the best leaping ability, nor the tallest frame, he consistently finds seems within the trees to get a layup? How many times have you seen him flip the ball over his head to wide open teammate when a double team comes at him in the post? Kids has a great basketball IQ. Personally, I think Pierre is UD's most versatile player since Brooks Hall and a few shades ahead of him as well.

Yes, he's more even keeled than Kendal, but you can't have a team that is full of high strung players like that; you need guys to balance out the highs & lows. Kendal's attitude sometimes gets him in trouble, stupid fouls, I remember a technical in one of the late seasons games when he shouted after a foul. Again I'm not complaining, a lot of good comes out of that same attitude, I think Pierre & Pollard feed well off each other.

	Brooks Hall BROOKS HALL 6-6 205lb Troy HS | Troy (OH) Cool, calm, cerebral wing player who finished among the Top-25 scorers in Flyer history. Deadly three-point shot and excellent passing skills. Helped Dayton reach two NCAA tournaments under Oliver Purnell. Consensus Top-125 recruit out of Troy HS in 1999 where he was D-I First Team All-Ohio and the media's choice for Ohio Mr. Basketball. CAREER STATS 1999-00 10.4ppg 5.8rpg 2000-01 9.20ppg 4.6rpg 2001-02 13.2ppg 5.0rpg 2002-03 12.8ppg 6.9rpg TOTALS 1404pts 686rbs 275asts

[DallasFlyer]

Pierre is best all-around player probably and the stat sheet will back that up, but Pollard is most valuable in my opinion - hustle, attitude, energy, emotional leader... Those things don't always show up on the stat sheet, but they are important. He is a very good player without all of that, but with it, he's great, and if you want to say he's the best, you can make a strong argument for that.

[daytonflyers]

Originally Posted by Gazoo No, no way, not even close. Just compared to Pierre: 3P shooting: Pierre FT shooting: Pierre Post scoring: Pierre Ball handling: Pierre Rebounding: tie, maybe Pollard based on athleticism Defense: Pierre Shot blocking: Pollard Finishing on the break: Pollard Passing: Pierre Don't be a "dunk-bigot." Just because Pollard is really athletic and powerful doesn't mean he's our "best" player.

I agree that Pierre is the better all around player. But I might disagree that he is a better post up player. Pollard has some moves in the post. I would say defense is also a toss-up, and ball handling is closer than you think. And Pollard's athleticism is far superior. He doesn't have the jump shot, passing, or polish that Pierre has though. Bottom line, we have two dynamic forwards that any team in the country would love to have.

[steve]

Originally Posted by DallasFlyer Pierre is best all-around player probably and the stat sheet will back that up, but Pollard is most valuable in my opinion - hustle, attitude, energy, emotional leader... Those things don't always show up on the stat sheet, but they are important. He is a very good player without all of that, but with it, he's great, and if you want to say he's the best, you can make a strong argument for that.

I can easily say, imho, that teams fear a guy like KP more than they do DP...KP can change a game around in a 90-120 second span with a big block, run the floor for a big dunk, another block, that creates another easy break, and maybe a huge rebound off a miss for a put -back..Do this at UD arena and it's a complete game-changer..........He creates more mis-matches for the opponent on the offensive end as well..

The key for KP to become a tremendous player will be to improve over this off-season close to what he did this past year and, naturally, that includes an improved FT % and knocking down more 15-17 footers.....

[San Diego Flyer]

I understand your rationale, but IMO teams would pray for Kendall to shoot 17 footers, even if he improves his % some. Him shooting 17 footers does not unbalance the floor like he does when he gets in the lane. But yes, he may have to shoot some to keep the defense honest.

As far as which one is better? What a treat it is to even have the debate. It's a draw in my mind.

[steve]

But his ability to stroke a 17 footer means that the defense has to come out on him and he can use his ability to get to the rim...As of now, the scouting report is out on KP and he can certainly avoid those charges he's prone to getting when defenders don't have the luxury of camping down low and waiting for him..He doesn't have to be come a 50% shooter or even a 40% shooter but he just has to make enough of them..

[Gazoo]

I don't think anyone wants or expects KP to become a spot up shooter, but just hitting 1 or 2 a game has an exponential impact on his effectiveness.

However, if I was coaching against him, I would stand 16 feet away from him taking a 17 footer. That can be UD's offense every time down the court and I will take the outcome, come what may.

[UDBrian]

Originally Posted by Gazoo I don't think anyone wants or expects KP to become a spot up shooter, but just hitting 1 or 2 a game has an exponential impact on his effectiveness. However, if I was coaching against him, I would stand 16 feet away from him taking a 17 footer. That can be UD's offense every time down the court and I will take the outcome, come what may.

I agree. If kp is shooting much under fifty percent on those. Kp not only scores when he drives he also draws defenders to free up offensive rebounds if he misses I agree that mp3 would be far more dangerous if he improves his shooting ability. I love what he brings to the table

[PalmBeachFlyer]

What makes KP so valuable is his ability to take it to the hole on a team of shooters.

TrueTeam!!!!

[Fudd]

Another intangible that is in KP's favor, IMO, is his ability to handle the ball and make good decisions under pressure. When we are being pressed, I feel like he is the most composed on the team.

[CE80]

Originally Posted by Fudd Another intangible that is in KP's favor, IMO, is his ability to handle the ball and make good decisions under pressure. When we are being pressed, I feel like he is the most composed on the team.

I'll take Kyle Davis.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by Fudd Another intangible that is in KP's favor, IMO, is his ability to handle the ball and make good decisions under pressure. When we are being pressed, I feel like he is the most composed on the team.

On the whole team? I'm sorry, you're talking about Kendall Pollard? He of the 0.44 A/TO ratio? Is there a different player with the initials KP I'm confusing Pollard with?

I'll take Pierre in that category--who had nearly 3x the assists Pollard had on the year, and about 15% less turnovers. A/TO = 1.43.

When we're being pressed Pollard is Chris Wright reincarnated--he's either going to dribble off his foot, charge, or absolutely bring the house down with a spectacular play. And it's going to be about 1/3, 1/3, and 1/3. That was last year, this year he may be a totally different player as he matures.

	Chris Wright CHRIS WRIGHT 6-8 225lb | Trotwood Madison, HS (OH) A10 All Rookie Team. Preseason 2008 2nd Team All A10. Member of the UD Flight Club with a 40+ inch vertical leap. Consensus Top-75 national recruit. Uncle is former Flyer J.D. Grigsby. Nickname is Top Flyght. CAREER STATS 2007-08 10.4ppg 5.7rpg

[Fudd]

Sorry, confused the KP with KD.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 Here's food for thought NO ONE saw coming, Is Kendall Pollard our best player? After distancing myself from last year and thinking about it, i think so.

Sorry, if you gave me a choice, and I wouldn't want this choice, but told me that either KP or DP would have to sit this season out, I would say "Take care of yourself for next season Kendall". I wouldn't hesitate. Last season of course they were both just as important as were JS, SS, KD and DD. Without any of those guys, we have a season that ends 5 games earlier.

But I've been looking forward to seeing the best 4 year player we've had in ages play his senior year and that Pierre. He is the leader, he's the player I want at the FT line with the game on the line. He's the one I trust to make the correct decisions late in close games and he's the one that can beat you from anywhere on the floor.

KP is a great player in his own right, love having him and knew I would when I was in Maui and saw him shoot an elbow into someone's face on either Cal or Baylor(can't remember). But I will bet my life savings when all is said and done and both KP and DP's college careers are over, DP is easily put in the top 15 all time Flyers, not so with KP.

DP was the biggest producing freshman we've had in ages. In his 2nd season he was part of the NCAA all tournament team and in his Junior season he changed his whole role dramatically to save us from a down season. I can't wait to see what's he's going to give us for a finale.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 DP was the biggest producing freshman we've had in ages. In his 2nd season he was part of the NCAA all tournament team and in his Junior season he changed his whole role dramatically to save us from a down season. I can't wait to see what's he's going to give us for a finale.

I think DP's "problem" (if you can call it that) is that he's got Brooks Hall disease. He's good at everything, but great at nothing. Brooks averaged 10.4 PPG as a freshman, and 11.0 for his career. 5.8 rebounds as a freshman and 5.6 for his career. He was a 77% FT shooter and 39% from 3 for his career (probably his most impressive number). 1.67 assists per game as a freshman and 2.24 for his career. These are all really good numbers, but nothing outside of his consistency stands out as particularly spectacular.

I really hope DP has that breakout year where he averages 17 PPG, 10 RPG, and shoots 40% from 3 while playing 30 minutes per game so we can look back and say "he was good for 3 years, but remember that monster senior season he had leading us back to the Sweet 16?"

Then if KP can give us what he gave us last year with just a little more efficiency we're golden.

	Brooks Hall BROOKS HALL 6-6 205lb Troy HS | Troy (OH) Cool, calm, cerebral wing player who finished among the Top-25 scorers in Flyer history. Deadly three-point shot and excellent passing skills. Helped Dayton reach two NCAA tournaments under Oliver Purnell. Consensus Top-125 recruit out of Troy HS in 1999 where he was D-I First Team All-Ohio and the media's choice for Ohio Mr. Basketball. CAREER STATS 1999-00 10.4ppg 5.8rpg 2000-01 9.20ppg 4.6rpg 2001-02 13.2ppg 5.0rpg 2002-03 12.8ppg 6.9rpg TOTALS 1404pts 686rbs 275asts

[Justin]

Saw some of the new guys on campus yesterday. Sam Miller is a lot bigger than I expected. He was standing next to KD, so that may have altered my prospective. He was walking with a slight limp, maybe nothing, maybe just sore. DP looks fit, lost some bulk from last year already. I hear X is shooting lights out.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Gazoo I think DP's "problem" (if you can call it that) is that he's got Brooks Hall disease. He's good at everything, but great at nothing. Brooks averaged 10.4 PPG as a freshman, and 11.0 for his career. 5.8 rebounds as a freshman and 5.6 for his career. He was a 77% FT shooter and 39% from 3 for his career (probably his most impressive number). 1.67 assists per game as a freshman and 2.24 for his career. These are all really good numbers, but nothing outside of his consistency stands out as particularly spectacular. I really hope DP has that breakout year where he averages 17 PPG, 10 RPG, and shoots 40% from 3 while playing 30 minutes per game so we can look back and say "he was good for 3 years, but remember that monster senior season he had leading us back to the Sweet 16?" Then if KP can give us what he gave us last year with just a little more efficiency we're golden.

On a True-Team, stats don't always tell the story. IMO, Pierre was great last year. When you have a team go as far as they have the past 2 seasons, it's really difficult to say they did it with just "good" play and his stats are every bit as good as anyone else's, just more spread out. What he did last season is not going to show in the stat sheet.

Due to the circumstances, the stats were going to be down as I believe there were probably less possessions per game by design on UD's part. For another example, take Scoochie, his PG play was every bit as good as Dillard's was in his senior season IMO but I don't think any stat is going to show you that.

Defense plays as big of part in winning as offense does and you can have a great defense without it showing up on stats other than the opponents shooting percentages and points scored. Those are stats that are not reflected in individual stats.

I'm going to guess that the only times you're going to see those big numbers you're looking for on an Archie coached team is when we have a team that's not as good as we've seen the past couple seasons. So I don't want to see it.

I know people want to point at stats and say this is why someone is great, but the eye test is what is going to tell you that with DP.

	Brooks Hall BROOKS HALL 6-6 205lb Troy HS | Troy (OH) Cool, calm, cerebral wing player who finished among the Top-25 scorers in Flyer history. Deadly three-point shot and excellent passing skills. Helped Dayton reach two NCAA tournaments under Oliver Purnell. Consensus Top-125 recruit out of Troy HS in 1999 where he was D-I First Team All-Ohio and the media's choice for Ohio Mr. Basketball. CAREER STATS 1999-00 10.4ppg 5.8rpg 2000-01 9.20ppg 4.6rpg 2001-02 13.2ppg 5.0rpg 2002-03 12.8ppg 6.9rpg TOTALS 1404pts 686rbs 275asts

[San Diego Flyer]

That's the way I see it. The Flyers have great balance in almost all respects. It would be difficult for Dyshawn to average 10 boards. He is battling Kendall, Cooke, Big Steve, and even our guards for rebounds. We should be a great rebounding team.

Forgot to mention Miller and Williams in the rebounding equation also.

[Medford]

as I mentioned above, I'd take Pierre over Pollard if forced to pick, but they compliment each other very well. Pollard offers the raw athleticism and physicality that Pierre doesn't have, Pierre offers the smart, savvy play you wish every player had, but few possess. They play off each other very well, UD is better off for having them both.

[San Diego Flyer]

I'm not sure I understand the lack of physicality comment for Dyshawn. In almost all respects, the man was an animal after D&D left. Fought like a tiger for rebounds--averaging over 9/game in conference. Used his substantial back porch to block out and move opponents.

[Gilchrist's Autograph 2]

Having depth in the post will help us be more aggressive on the offensive boards.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Medford]

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer I'm not sure I understand the lack of physicality comment for Dyshawn. In almost all respects, the man was an animal after D&D left. Fought like a tiger for rebounds--averaging over 9/game in conference. Used his substantial back porch to block out and move opponents.

perhaps physicality is not the correct term; he's built like a brick house and more than holds his own against brute strength.

I'm thinking in terms of explosion. Kendall's got an element of explosion in him that Dyshawn doesn't have. Dyshawn's got all the "old man basketball" smarts that you could ever want. How often does he get a shot blocked in traffic? Rarely, he always finds the seams, as well as any player I can recall.

[flyerfanatic86]

In many respects, Pierre was the cog that kept the offensive machine moving. He'd get the ball inside and would either back down a smaller player, face up against a slower player, or find an open guy if he didn't have a favorable matchup. Pollard brings a lot of great things to the table (hard to believe that people predicting he might transfer a year ago), but he just couldn't do what Pierre was able to last season.

[jack72]

Originally Posted by Gilchrist's Autograph 2 Having depth in the post will help us be more aggressive on the offensive boards. Posted via Mobile Device

It will be interesting to see Miller's approach to offensive rebounding this year. It was a huge weakness last year. This was due to lack of size, but also not wanting to give up fouls, and Miller's desire that the team get back and defend.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by Justin Sam Miller is a lot bigger than I expected.

At 6'9", 240ish, the big question is whether Miller's the next Keith Waleskowski or Jim Shields.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 On a True-Team, stats don't always tell the story. IMO, Pierre was great last year. When you have a team go as far as they have the past 2 seasons, it's really difficult to say they did it with just "good" play and his stats are every bit as good as anyone else's, just more spread out. What he did last season is not going to show in the stat sheet. Due to the circumstances, the stats were going to be down as I believe there were probably less possessions per game by design on UD's part. For another example, take Scoochie, his PG play was every bit as good as Dillard's was in his senior season IMO but I don't think any stat is going to show you that. Defense plays as big of part in winning as offense does and you can have a great defense without it showing up on stats other than the opponents shooting percentages and points scored. Those are stats that are not reflected in individual stats. I'm going to guess that the only times you're going to see those big numbers you're looking for on an Archie coached team is when we have a team that's not as good as we've seen the past couple seasons. So I don't want to see it. I know people want to point at stats and say this is why someone is great, but the eye test is what is going to tell you that with DP.

There's no doubt DP has sacrificed his stats for the team, that's why I want to see him with a full compliment of players (a center, shooters, backups to allow him to rest) and his senior leadership come together for 1 monster season. . . as I said, leading us back to the Sweet 16.

I don't think having an unstoppable player means we must have a bad season. If DP is set free and causes matchup nightmares he won't be selfish but he could be a force. In particular if his 3P shooting creeps up to close to 40% there just won't be anyone in the A10 who can guard him. He'll be a zone killer, a big man killer, and a small forward killer.

Plus, with a center taking up space, he can fly in for the rebounds.

Then KP will be set free on the break and the offensive boards instead of having to dribble in traffic as much as he did last year. He can play "see ball - get ball - shoot ball".

It could be a fun year.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Gazoo There's no doubt DP has sacrificed his stats for the team, that's why I want to see him with a full compliment of players (a center, shooters, backups to allow him to rest) and his senior leadership come together for 1 monster season. . . as I said, leading us back to the Sweet 16. I don't think having an unstoppable player means we must have a bad season. If DP is set free and causes matchup nightmares he won't be selfish but he could be a force. In particular if his 3P shooting creeps up to close to 40% there just won't be anyone in the A10 who can guard him. He'll be a zone killer, a big man killer, and a small forward killer. Plus, with a center taking up space, he can fly in for the rebounds. Then KP will be set free on the break and the offensive boards instead of having to dribble in traffic as much as he did last year. He can play "see ball - get ball - shoot ball". It could be a fun year.

Well, all players are stoppable if you have enough players defending them. Say that most teams we play decide that their first order of business is stopping DP, not really unrealistic. If due to the attention he receives, it leaves many more openings for the other 4 players on the court, you have to give him the credit. Not saying this would happen every game, but it could happen enough to keep his season averages from exploding. It could be comparable to the Cornerback in football who's so respected, that hardly any passes get thrown their way. The other cornerback, less respected, gets most of the opportunities for the interceptions. It's those things that stats don't reflect.

Whatever way Pierre helps us win, I won't need stats to tell me this, but if his stats do explode, I see where you're coming from, it would be nice for him and well deserved.

[Flyer 86]

i would have 16 points, 7 boards aa my targets for DP. if he's getting 9 boards a game, someone else isn't coming thru for us.

[Buster Goode]

To say it's not close that KP is our best player is downright lunacy.
Posted via Mobile Device

[San Diego Flyer]

Originally Posted by Flyer 86 i would have 16 points, 7 boards as my targets for DP. if he's getting 9 boards a game, someone else isn't coming thru for us.

Yes, this is not last year. Archie has planned for him to have help.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer Yes, this is not last year. Archie has planned for him to have help.

Not to mention with more size and depth on the team, it's more than likely he's going to spend more time away from the rim this season.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Flyer 86 i would have 16 points, 7 boards aa my targets for DP. if he's getting 9 boards a game, someone else isn't coming thru for us.

Why? Or DP has just gotten that much better..Guy had 8 rpg a year ago with no legs for several minutes per game, having to bang against 4 's and 5's all game, and no other big body to help seal off...we're only talking another 1 rpg, not 5-6...

[steve]

Originally Posted by jack72 It will be interesting to see Miller's approach to offensive rebounding this year. It was a huge weakness last year. This was due to lack of size, but also not wanting to give up fouls, and Miller's desire that the team get back and defend.

Lack of size and lack of players/depth....Very easy to get over the back fouls when out of position and the last thing AM wanted was a guy banging in from the perimeter to keep a ball alive or get the rebound but at the huge risk of picking up a foul....Fouls are better at getting on the defensive end..

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by Buster Goode To say it's not close that KP is our best player is downright lunacy. Posted via Mobile Device

Please back this up with statistics or some form of analysis.

It's lunacy that a guy who was a poor FT shooter, below average mid-range shooter, terrible shooter from distance (3-9 and I believe 2 of them banked in), below average ball handler, and poor passer could be considered our best player. Those can all be backed up with facts.

If you love Brian Gregory basketball then KP is our best player. He jumps the highest, has the most highlight reel dunks, and electrifies the crowd when he touches the ball. But he can be game planned around fairly easily. It's very difficult to game plan around DP. A guy who can't be stopped from making major contributions no matter what defensive strategy is employed is your best player. And there's no doubt that is not KP.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[oldfan]

Originally Posted by Gazoo Please back this up with statistics or some form of analysis. It's lunacy that a guy who was a poor FT shooter, below average mid-range shooter, terrible shooter from distance (3-9 and I believe 2 of them banked in), below average ball handler, and poor passer could be considered our best player. Those can all be backed up with facts. If you love Brian Gregory basketball then KP is our best player. He jumps the highest, has the most highlight reel dunks, and electrifies the crowd when he touches the ball. But he can be game planned around fairly easily. It's very difficult to game plan around DP. A guy who can't be stopped from making major contributions no matter what defensive strategy is employed is your best player. And there's no doubt that is not KP.

I believe you and Buster Goode are actually in agreement. You will need to reread his post in conjunction with the post to which he was responding.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[San Diego Flyer]

I think they are in violent agreement.

As far as rebounding for Pierre, he actually averaged 9/game in Conference play. But if Coach trims him down and plays him more on the wing, he may leak out on the break more and he will have competition from his own team for rebounds. It's not that he CAN"T get 9/10 rebounds a game, it's more a rationale that he won't have to, and will have other duties to concern himself with.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by Gazoo Please back this up with statistics or some form of analysis. It's lunacy that a guy who was a poor FT shooter, below average mid-range shooter, terrible shooter from distance (3-9 and I believe 2 of them banked in), below average ball handler, and poor passer could be considered our best player. Those can all be backed up with facts. If you love Brian Gregory basketball then KP is our best player. He jumps the highest, has the most highlight reel dunks, and electrifies the crowd when he touches the ball. But he can be game planned around fairly easily. It's very difficult to game plan around DP. A guy who can't be stopped from making major contributions no matter what defensive strategy is employed is your best player. And there's no doubt that is not KP.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[San Diego Flyer]

Originally Posted by Gazoo It's lunacy that a guy who was a poor FT shooter, below average mid-range shooter, terrible shooter from distance (3-9 and I believe 2 of them banked in), below average ball handler, and poor passer could be considered our best player. Those can all be backed up with facts.

Below average shooter (47%), poor ft shooter (67%), below average ball handler (1 assist for every 3 turnovers), lousy long distance shooter (25%), no mid-range game at all, below average passer.

Unequivocally our best player in 2008/9. High impact Sophomore Chris Wright.

Just sayin' lunacy comes in various forms. The stats take a back seat sometimes when the player has boatloads of potential.

	Chris Wright CHRIS WRIGHT 6-8 225lb | Trotwood Madison, HS (OH) A10 All Rookie Team. Preseason 2008 2nd Team All A10. Member of the UD Flight Club with a 40+ inch vertical leap. Consensus Top-75 national recruit. Uncle is former Flyer J.D. Grigsby. Nickname is Top Flyght. CAREER STATS 2007-08 10.4ppg 5.7rpg

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer Below average shooter (47%), poor ft shooter (67%), below average ball handler (1 assist for every 3 turnovers), lousy long distance shooter (25%), no mid-range game at all, below average passer. Unequivocally our best player in 2008/9. High impact Sophomore Chris Wright. Just sayin' lunacy comes in various forms. The stats take a back seat sometimes when the player has boatloads of potential.

Yep, he's big on stats on a team where stats haven't told the story.

However, I consider it bias more than lunacy. when you just look at KP, KD and Scoochie, and pick the best player between those 3, I can't. I just don't think that any of them bring more to the table than the other. Scoochie's breaking of the press and unselfish play, our quarterback mind you. Kyle's defense, ball-handling and kind of a 2nd PG once the ball crosses the half court, not to mention he seems pretty clutch and has every bit the fire that KP has. And the muscle and intimidation, ability to get to the ft line and ability to play at a high intensity all game long along with being our best shot blocker is what KP brings. None is better than the other.

No, only one player stands out to me and that's our senior. best all around player we have and had in a long time.

	Chris Wright CHRIS WRIGHT 6-8 225lb | Trotwood Madison, HS (OH) A10 All Rookie Team. Preseason 2008 2nd Team All A10. Member of the UD Flight Club with a 40+ inch vertical leap. Consensus Top-75 national recruit. Uncle is former Flyer J.D. Grigsby. Nickname is Top Flyght. CAREER STATS 2007-08 10.4ppg 5.7rpg

[Figgie123]

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer Below average shooter (47%), poor ft shooter (67%), below average ball handler (1 assist for every 3 turnovers), lousy long distance shooter (25%), no mid-range game at all, below average passer. Unequivocally our best player in 2008/9. High impact Sophomore Chris Wright. Just sayin' lunacy comes in various forms. The stats take a back seat sometimes when the player has boatloads of potential.

I like your lunacy, San Diego Flyer. I wouldn't have known it without you bringing it up, but check out the comparisons...

Chris Wright (2008) vs Kendall Pollard (2014)

 ud | gms | strt |     mins     |   fg_tp_ft_pct    |     pts     |   rebs    |   asts   |   tos    
----+-----+------+--------------+-------------------+-------------+-----------+----------+----------
 CW |  35 |   34 | 915 (26.10)  | 0.478/0.250/0.676 | 464 (13.26) | 232 (6.6) | 33 (0.9) | 84 (2.4)
 KP |  35 |   28 | 1020 (29.10) | 0.552/0.333/0.580 | 444 (12.69) | 187 (5.3) | 37 (1.1) | 85 (2.4)

	Chris Wright CHRIS WRIGHT 6-8 225lb | Trotwood Madison, HS (OH) A10 All Rookie Team. Preseason 2008 2nd Team All A10. Member of the UD Flight Club with a 40+ inch vertical leap. Consensus Top-75 national recruit. Uncle is former Flyer J.D. Grigsby. Nickname is Top Flyght. CAREER STATS 2007-08 10.4ppg 5.7rpg

[jack72]

Interesting that their stats are about even. CW was considered by many to be a bit of a disappointment at that point, while KP is being said to be an overachiever and our best player. Personally I would take Pierre as one and Scoochie as two and Pollard three, but glad we do not have to pick, we have all three.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Figgie123 I like your lunacy, San Diego Flyer. I wouldn't have known it without you bringing it up, but check out the comparisons... Chris Wright (2008) vs Kendall Pollard (2014) ud | gms | strt | mins | fg_tp_ft_pct | pts | rebs | asts | tos ----+-----+------+--------------+-------------------+-------------+-----------+----------+---------- CW | 35 | 34 | 915 (26.10) | 0.478/0.250/0.676 | 464 (13.26) | 232 (6.6) | 33 (0.9) | 84 (2.4) KP | 35 | 28 | 1020 (29.10) | 0.552/0.333/0.580 | 444 (12.69) | 187 (5.3) | 37 (1.1) | 85 (2.4)

and if the other 4 starters around KP(coached by AM) were Huelsman, Marcus Johnson, London Warren, and Charles Little(all coached by BG), he would be our best player.

Yes, I think that KP is better than CW, it just takes a higher bar to be the best on the 2015-2016 squad. MUCH HIGHER!!!

	London Warren LONDON WARREN 6-0 185lb Junior Raines, HS | Jacksonville FL Nicknamed the "Jacksonville Jet", London Warren is perhaps UD's quickest player baseline to baseline. Leader in steals defensively, he likes to push tempo on offense. Working on his shot and confidence at the charity stripe. 2007-08 | 4.3ppg 2.9rpg 2006-07 | 2.4ppg 1.7rpg

[San Diego Flyer]

Why would folks not even think of putting Kendall in the same sentence as Chris? For one, CW is home-grown and a legend in Dayton, and secondly due mainly to his freakish athleticism and specifically his off-the-charts vertical. Third, CW's awesome physique and being an inch and a half taller than Kendall contributes to the disparity.

Kendall played behind Jabari Parker on a barnstorming high school team. Chris had the whole stage to himself in high school, principally in Dayton.

But the stats don't lie in this comparison. The two players, at the same stage of their development are neck-and-neck.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer Why would folks not even think of putting Kendall in the same sentence as Chris? For one, CW is home-grown and a legend in Dayton, and secondly due mainly to his freakish athleticism and specifically his off-the-charts vertical. Third, CW's awesome physique and being an inch and a half taller than Kendall contributes to the disparity. Kendall played behind Jabari Parker on a barnstorming high school team. Chris had the whole stage to himself in high school, principally in Dayton. But the stats don't lie in this comparison. The two players, at the same stage of their development are neck-and-neck.

I would easily. as I said, the bar is much higher now based on talent. CW was part of very athletic team, one that could oooooooh and ahhhh you but when it came to basketball skills, left a lot to be desired. KP has been part of a very basketball talented team. And from what I see, is a much better basketball player than CW. Since our interest of action when watching these players is basketball and not track and field, KP is the better player when it comes to UD basketball.

Now, when it comes to rating them based on relativity to the rest of their teammates, CW comes out ahead because he was the best on that team. That doesn't mean he's better than KP. To say that CW was better than KP because CW was the best on his team and KP isn't, would be like saying that DP is a better player than 4 of the 5 starters for Kentucky for the same reason. It doesn't make sense.

[Gazoo]

First, 67% is not a "poor" FT shooter, it is very much average.

Second, 47% from the field (it was actually 48%) is not "average" it is very good. It would have ranked behind only KP and BW (limited shots and minutes) on this year's team.

But as Smitty will point out, we get to ignore statistics when we choose to and focus on "the whole story". And in this case the whole story is that KP shoots mostly layups and dunks (as did CW) and his shooting form is atrocious. He really needs to improve that and if he does he has amazing potential. What's really amazing is that both players shot such a high percentage when the other team knew there was really only one arrow in the quiver. It speaks to their raw talent.

But until KP improves his shot, DP is our best player.

[PalmBeachFlyer]

I long to return to those days when there was no doubt who our best player was...

[San Diego Flyer]

It's fair to say that Kendall as a Soph was amazingly close in stats to Chris when Chris was a Soph. And probably has the same NBA potential with the similar hard work that Chris put in.

Dyshawn as a Soph was right there with those two in stats as a Soph as well.

But Senior Dyshawn has the maturity and well-rounded game to claim the MVP poll position this coming season due to his leadership qualities and improvements as a Junior, and also as likely as Senior.

We are fortunate to have both players this season.

[jack72]

Originally Posted by PalmBeachFlyer I long to return to those days when there was no doubt who our best player was...

I assume you are joking.

Those who have been around for awhile, will remember arguably the best UD team of all time, and as stated by DD. Finkel was a senior and May a sophomore. Lots of discussion as to who was the best player. We would love to have that problem again.

[BRob2Perryman3]

Entire seasons in a vacuum beginning to end not just result the best team i ever saw was the 2002-2003 team. While if you put it to a vote Wally would come out ahead as our best player, i think Brooks,Ramod and even Finn would garner votes. Just ran into a major buzzsaw with Tulsa......

[UDBrian]

Originally Posted by PalmBeachFlyer I long to return to those days when there was no doubt who our best player was...

I would take that if the best player was a top 10 nba draft pick surrounded by several very good players.

[Alberto Strasse]

imagine how difficult it is for an opposing coaching staff to prepare a game plan to stop Dayton. Each night a new name and game steps up to defeat you. Go Flyers!

[bcross]

Originally Posted by jack72 Interesting that their stats are about even. CW was considered by many to be a bit of a disappointment at that point, while KP is being said to be an overachiever and our best player.

That's not really accurate. CW had just scored 27 points in a game to give us our first NCAA win in nearly 20 years. At that point, more people were worried about him leaving for the NBA. The disappointment came later when his game didn't follow the same projection as people hoped.

[Glen Clark]

Originally Posted by jack72 Interesting that their stats are about even. CW was considered by many to be a bit of a disappointment at that point . . .

Originally Posted by Smitty10 . . . KP has been part of a very basketball talented team. And from what I see, is a much better basketball player than CW . . .

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer It's fair to say that Kendall as a Soph was amazingly close in stats to Chris when Chris was a Soph. And probably has the same NBA potential with the similar hard work that Chris put in. . .

jack72, CW was not 'considered by many to be a bit of a disappointment' after his sophomore season . . . where do you come up with that?

Kendall is special, probably has a better coach than CW had, maybe surrounded by better talent than CW was,
but there is no way he 'is a much better basketball player than CW'.

Chris Wright sophomore mix tape:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XJv2gaCJso

I wish KP all the best - he is a big part of a very special team.
It's a team that in large part is standing on Chris Wright's shoulders.

Apologies to the off-topic police . . .

_____________________
Whether your glass is half full or half empty, you still have more to drink

	Chris Wright CHRIS WRIGHT 6-8 225lb | Trotwood Madison, HS (OH) A10 All Rookie Team. Preseason 2008 2nd Team All A10. Member of the UD Flight Club with a 40+ inch vertical leap. Consensus Top-75 national recruit. Uncle is former Flyer J.D. Grigsby. Nickname is Top Flyght. CAREER STATS 2007-08 10.4ppg 5.7rpg

[TommyGola]

I think a key difference between the two is that basically Chris had plateaued by his sophomore year, and fans sensed that. Kendall, on the other hand, is clearly on an upward trajectory in virtually every phase of his game. Early in the 2014/14 season I referred to Kendall as a "poor man's Chris Wright." After the 2015/16 season, I think I may be taking that back and concluding that Kendall after three years under Archie has progressed to a better player than Chris. Furthermore, this coaching staff is doing a much better job of capitalizing on the skills of Kendall than the previous coaching staff did with Chris. Not to belabor a point, but Chris would be in the NBA today if he had played under the tutelage of Archie's staff. And I am not being critical necessarily of the BG era; I am just emphasizing how this coaching staff is one of the top five coaching staffs in the country...not bragging on them, just a fact.

	Chris Wright CHRIS WRIGHT 6-8 225lb | Trotwood Madison, HS (OH) A10 All Rookie Team. Preseason 2008 2nd Team All A10. Member of the UD Flight Club with a 40+ inch vertical leap. Consensus Top-75 national recruit. Uncle is former Flyer J.D. Grigsby. Nickname is Top Flyght. CAREER STATS 2007-08 10.4ppg 5.7rpg

[Gilchrist's Autograph 2]

Originally Posted by TommyGola I think a key difference between the two is that basically Chris had plateaued by his sophomore year, and fans sensed that. Kendall, on the other hand, is clearly on an upward trajectory in virtually every phase of his game. Early in the 2014/14 season I referred to Kendall as a "poor man's Chris Wright." After the 2015/16 season, I think I may be taking that back and concluding that Kendall after three years under Archie has progressed to a better player than Chris. Furthermore, this coaching staff is doing a much better job of capitalizing on the skills of Kendall than the previous coaching staff did with Chris. Not to belabor a point, but Chris would be in the NBA today if he had played under the tutelage of Archie's staff. And I am not being critical necessarily of the BG era; I am just emphasizing how this coaching staff is one of the top five coaching staffs in the country...not bragging on them, just a fact.

You are going way overboard on the impact of Archie versus BG on player development. I agree that he and his staff do a great job, but Chris Wright has had 4 years post-graduation to develop skills, including a lot of time in NBA DEVELOPMENTAL League. Don't blame BG on his not playing in NBA right now. That's ridiculous. Would Shumpert be an All-Star right now if Archie had coached him?!

Time will tell on Pollard, but there are so many factors that go into a player progressing to next level, maybe we shouldn't put all the blame and credit on one person as we observe from afar.
Posted via Mobile Device

	Chris Wright CHRIS WRIGHT 6-8 225lb | Trotwood Madison, HS (OH) A10 All Rookie Team. Preseason 2008 2nd Team All A10. Member of the UD Flight Club with a 40+ inch vertical leap. Consensus Top-75 national recruit. Uncle is former Flyer J.D. Grigsby. Nickname is Top Flyght. CAREER STATS 2007-08 10.4ppg 5.7rpg

[Gazoo]

Right now it's fun to speculate but after this year we'll know for sure. If KP shoots 60% from the FT line and makes you cringe when he dribbles the ball in the open court, we'll know that he's peaked, and we'll accept him for who he is. But the very fact that during 1 season he went from looking like a linebacker dribbling the ball up the court in week 1 to a reasonable option to dribble the ball in the open court by tournament time tells me he's still developing skills, getting smarter, and is coachable.

That's the difference between KP and CW: CW made basically all the same mistakes as a senior that he did as a sophomore.

I think it's totally fair to say that people realized CW was hitting the plateau at that point in his career. The tide was turning as people saw that it was likely that junior CW was going to be sophomore CW with a little more muscle.

To Tommy's point, we had not seen players develop skill-wise under BG so there were no surprises expected. We EXPECT players to develop under Miller.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by Gilchrist's Autograph 2 You are going way overboard on the impact of Archie versus BG on player development. I agree that he and his staff do a great job, but Chris Wright has had 4 years post-graduation to develop skills, including a lot of time in NBA DEVELOPMENTAL League. Don't blame BG on his not playing in NBA right now. That's ridiculous. Would Shumpert be an All-Star right now if Archie had coached him?! Time will tell on Pollard, but there are so many factors that go into a player progressing to next level, maybe we shouldn't put all the blame and credit on one person as we observe from afar. Posted via Mobile Device

If CW was the only one who didn't develop I wouldn't blame BG. But players developing was the exception not the rule. And it's totally fair to argue that BG recruited players who didn't / couldn't develop basketball skills; BG couldn't stand out there and shoot for them. But in that case I still blame BG for recruiting the wrong players.

	Chris Wright CHRIS WRIGHT 6-8 225lb | Trotwood Madison, HS (OH) A10 All Rookie Team. Preseason 2008 2nd Team All A10. Member of the UD Flight Club with a 40+ inch vertical leap. Consensus Top-75 national recruit. Uncle is former Flyer J.D. Grigsby. Nickname is Top Flyght. CAREER STATS 2007-08 10.4ppg 5.7rpg

[CE80]

Originally Posted by Gazoo If CW was the only one who didn't develop I wouldn't blame BG. But players developing was the exception not the rule. And it's totally fair to argue that BG recruited players who didn't / couldn't develop basketball skills; BG couldn't stand out there and shoot for them. But in that case I still blame BG for recruiting the wrong players.

I blame BG for the problems in Greece too.

[jack72]

I think a coach can make a marginal difference, and only with some personalities, as far as NBA development. BG, who I do not like as a coach, developed CJ and CW. Archie, so far has developed zero pros. Pollard will be a great measuring stick for Archie.

In the end, other than a PR/marketing thing, I could care less about developing NBA players. Archie has us winning as a team by fitting the skills and pieces better than 95% of the coaches.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by jack72 Archie, so far has developed zero pros.

Or, said differently, Archie has developed the same number of pros in his time at UD that BG had developed in that same time.

If Siebert suits up for a team AM will be ahead, and KP has the chance to put Miller far ahead. Not expected, but very possible.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by jack72 I think a coach can make a marginal difference, and only with some personalities, as far as NBA development.

Disagree, I think a college player's college coach can make a huge difference in terms of developing said player and getting him to the NBA.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by jack72 In the end, other than a PR/marketing thing, I could care less about developing NBA players. Archie has us winning as a team by fitting the skills and pieces better than 95% of the coaches.

If a coach can get his guys to the NBA, it is a huge boost to the coach and program in terms of recruiting.

[steve]

Originally Posted by bcross That's not really accurate. CW had just scored 27 points in a game to give us our first NCAA win in nearly 20 years. At that point, more people were worried about him leaving for the NBA. The disappointment came later when his game didn't follow the same projection as people hoped.

100% correct.....When we kept seeing CW drive down the right side of the lane his junior/senior year and clank far more off the rim/ board from 10-12 feet out than he ever made only then did we start scratching out heads seeing a lack of real development and improvement..

[Alberto Strasse]

at the College levels exists because of the player's ambition and dream. Perhaps the college coaches walk the tight rope of keeping the dream alive while simultaneously knowing that a great team does not need NBA level talent to achieve great success at the College level. College coaches spend a lot of time in the player's Freshman year separating personal ego from team identity. This is very hard to do when one player is substantially better than the remaining roster. Team achievement is goal in College. NBA selection may be a byproduct of that result.

[ud2]

Have heard Thad Matta say that it is tough to convince guys that they have a better chance of accomplishing their individual goals(getting to the NBA)if they first play as a team and work to accomplish the team's goals first. But, what Matta says is true, the team has to come before the individual.

[Fudd]

Originally Posted by ud2 Have heard Thad Matta say that it is tough to convince guys that they have a better chance of accomplishing their individual goals(getting to the NBA)if they first play as a team and work to accomplish the team's goals first. But, what Matta says is true, the team has to come before the individual.

It's true. Each year that we play as a team, we raise the profile of the entire team. Friends and relatives of mine, who are in remote parts of the country and the fans of teams who we would generally be unfamiliar with, ask me about the Flyers and comment on their success regularly now. NCAA tournament success is priceless. That is why I'm not all crazy about trying to change our league affiliation. Nobody knows who finished first in the league standings, etc. Everybody remembers who was winning in the tournament.

And on top of it, individual players of such a successful program begin to raise their own profiles.

That is why I love NCAA basketball. It's one of the only sports where what we did last season is possible. Even if you have no size or depth, if you play solidly as a team with team concepts taking the priority, you can win.

I have no interest in getting into the debate about who is more valuable to the team based on last year. Last year, each guy was just focused on doing what needed to be done to get wins with our circumstance at the time. If a player had four fouls, he was letting his man take an uncontested lay-up if he got cleanly beat on defense. He was also being careful on offense, not to be too aggressive going to the hoop. Our players did things that were not characteristic of a team with depth at all positions all of the time.

[UDBrian]

I think that BG tried to emphasize offensive development to his players. I have mentioned before that bg talked about an opposing player who they didn't guard one year and the next year he was leading the league in three point shooting. BG said something like "can you imagine how much time he spent in the gym to do that?" The players probably didn't buy in that much because their practice time was always spent on defense and rebounding.

But, part of the difference is that Archie recruits more players who are students of the game, gym rats who want to get better at all phases. There is a reason that a player cannot shoot when he begins playing college ball, it is usually because he isn't concerned about learning to shoot.

[Runnin' Rebel]

Archie and staff dedicate a good amount of practice on shooting too... what I'm guessing is way more than most teams - which I think contributes mightly to player development (as well as the players becoming more confident in their stroke).

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Gazoo Or, said differently, Archie has developed the same number of pros in his time at UD that BG had developed in that same time. If Siebert suits up for a team AM will be ahead, and KP has the chance to put Miller far ahead. Not expected, but very possible.

You obviously mean going straight to Pros right? because 3 of BG's players have time in the NBA, but they needed some development time first. I think B-Rob got the shaft to start out. some times it is a popularity contest to get drafted and if you don't get drafted, you're opportunities are much less even if you are as good as players that were drafted. While taking the long way to the NBA helped B-Rob, I really believe he would've been a decent backup PG in the NBA right out of the gate. As far as CJ and CW, I think a decent coach like say Archie Miller could've gotten them drafted if he'd have had them from the beginning.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 some times it is a popularity contest to get drafted and if you don't get drafted, you're opportunities are much less even if you are as good as players that were drafted.

Agree, seems to be a popularity contest, it seems that much of your chances/career hinges on what round you are drafted. It seems that you have a much, much better chance of "sticking" in the NBA if you can get drafted in the first round with the two year guaranteed contract.

I wonder if part of the deal is that the coach, GM, owner, or whoever it was that liked you and was responsible for picking you in the draft, wants to prove that they knew what they were doing when they picked you/have an eye for talent. You get more chances the higher you are drafted.

You really have to work hard/get lucky to make it in the NBA if you aren't a first rounder, I think the stats, regarding non-first rounders sticking in the league, back that up.

[CE80]

Originally Posted by ud2 Agree, seems to be a popularity contest, it seems that much of your chances/career hinges on what round you are drafted. It seems that you have a much, much better chance of "sticking" in the NBA if you can get drafted in the first round with the two year guaranteed contract. I wonder if part of the deal is that the coach, GM, owner, or whoever it was that liked you and was responsible for picking you in the draft, wants to prove that they knew what they were doing when they picked you/have an eye for talent. You get more chances the higher you are drafted. You really have to work hard/get lucky to make it in the NBA if you aren't a first rounder, I think the stats, regarding non-first rounders sticking in the league, back that up.

I heard something on ESPN radio one day, to the effect that the top 10 picks are GM picks, after that, the rest of the first round is kind of a crap shoot. Often, the owner weighs in and wants to pick somebody he saw do well in the NCAA tourney. GM goes with the owner because he is covered if it doesn't work out.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 You obviously mean going straight to Pros right? because 3 of BG's players have time in the NBA, but they needed some development time first. I think B-Rob got the shaft to start out. some times it is a popularity contest to get drafted and if you don't get drafted, you're opportunities are much less even if you are as good as players that were drafted. While taking the long way to the NBA helped B-Rob, I really believe he would've been a decent backup PG in the NBA right out of the gate. As far as CJ and CW, I think a decent coach like say Archie Miller could've gotten them drafted if he'd have had them from the beginning.

It is not a popularity contest on who gets drafted.. You simply have to bring something to the table that is a high commodity. You may not see it in plenty of these draft choices but the GM's and high level guys do.Some guys bring it in pure talent, some guys in pure physical measures like running and jumping, some in just having great size, great length, tremendous athleticism,etc. Still a crap-shoot with plenty of guys. BROB was NOT ready to play in the NBA when he left UD. First off, and fortunately for us, he was asked to make a position change to the PG position when Meachum left that he was not great at...Had he been able to stay at the 2 spot and develop not only would he have been an easy 2200-2300 point scorer but may have probably been a guy that would have developed his game enough at that spot to maybe get drafted but, still, he was only a 6'1-6'2" kid and never a real good defensive player. He averaged 0.5 steals per game his entire career and he probably played 35 mpg.BROB clearly lacked the skills to play the PG position in the NBA several years ago as he was not a great ball-handler for a PG, did not beat guys off the dribble, come off the high ball screen real fluid, take great angles ,break down the defense, get into the lane and to the rack, and get players involved at least to the level the NBA requires...

What BROB DID have was a very good game and a guy who never lost his dream...He worked hard, got better, played international ball against very good teams and players, and catapulted himself into a NBA player...

[ud2]

Originally Posted by CE80 Often, the owner weighs in and wants to pick somebody he saw do well in the NCAA tourney. GM goes with the owner because he is covered if it doesn't work out.

I definitely think that making the NCAA tournament helps to raise the visibility/popularity of the UD players.

Staying longer in school raises your popularity and odds of getting drafted.

You hear the argument sometimes that a player is not going to improve his skills much if he stays in school, that may be true, the longer you stay in school/the older you are, the less future potential there is, but I think you almost always improve your draft stock if you stay in school. IMO, the popularity of NCAA basketball alone is a big boost to your draft stock, even if only your stats improve, but your skills don't improve that much. The better stats/being the big stud on your team raises your popularity.

Yes, the NBA teams look at your age if you stay in school in terms of your future potential and how much you have developed by a certain age, but if you stay in school and polish your game, that is one less year that a NBA team has to invest in you/pay you to polish your game. Better for them if you polish your game on your own rather than have them paying you while you polish your game and become NBA-ready.

So, if you are a second round/possibly borderline first round guy, stay in school and get drafted in the first round the next year.

[Gazoo]

Definitely a popularity contest. The GM / owner of the Dallas Mavericks is considering the following 2 players of roughly equal skill and potential:

1. Keith Frazier, SMU (Dallas, Texas)
2. Goldbond Ivegotanitch, Kraplackistan junior team (Kraplackistan)

The guy from SMU will generate far more interest from his season ticket holders. When the team goes to the local hospital to visit kids as a part of the goodwill tour, no one but the dermatologist will want to talk to Mr. Ivegotanitch.

If 2 players have roughly the same physical stats but one went to Nowhere State and the other went to Duke, the guy from Duke will always carry the day. It's kind of like the old saying, "No one gets fired for picking IBM." If the GM takes the guy from Duke and he's a bust, it's the player's fault. If the GM takes the guy from Nowhere State, then the GM "wasted" a pick if it doesn't work out.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Gazoo Definitely a popularity contest. The GM / owner of the Dallas Mavericks is considering the following 2 players of roughly equal skill and potential: 1. Keith Frazier, SMU (Dallas, Texas) 2. Goldbond Ivegotanitch, Kraplackistan junior team (Kraplackistan) The guy from SMU will generate far more interest from his season ticket holders. When the team goes to the local hospital to visit kids as a part of the goodwill tour, no one but the dermatologist will want to talk to Mr. Ivegotanitch. If 2 players have roughly the same physical stats but one went to Nowhere State and the other went to Duke, the guy from Duke will always carry the day. It's kind of like the old saying, "No one gets fired for picking IBM." If the GM takes the guy from Duke and he's a bust, it's the player's fault. If the GM takes the guy from Nowhere State, then the GM "wasted" a pick if it doesn't work out.

And I guess that competition has nothing to do with it then? Again, it's not about stats...The KY C averaged 10 and 6. Your example is not good,imo.Naturally,, the Duke player plays much tougher competition day in and day out, game in and game out..Would you rather take a Duke C that is going against 6'10-7'0 players just about every game or the other guy who might face a handful of players his size game in and game out and not nearly as athletic or strong as the guy the Duke player faces? Same with G play.....The Duke kid is playing a schedule ranked top 5-10 , if not higher, most years, and playing against kids both in practice and in games just about as good and definitely as big plenty of times...

It's a reason you see very few OL in the NFL who played at Nowhere State....

[rollo]

On the way back from the RecPlex at lunch I saw Pollard walking down the road wiping sweat off his face with the bottom of his shirt, and because of that I can tell you that any weight he's gained is not in his stomach.

He's HUGE...in a Royal way.

[CE80]

Originally Posted by rollo On the way back from the RecPlex at lunch I saw Pollard walking down the road wiping sweat off his face with the bottom of his shirt, and because of that I can tell you that any weight he's gained is not in his stomach. He's HUGE...in a Royal way.

Are you saying he didn't have any pants on?

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by steve And I guess that competition has nothing to do with it then? Again, it's not about stats...The KY C averaged 10 and 6. Your example is not good,imo.Naturally,, the Duke player plays much tougher competition day in and day out, game in and game out..Would you rather take a Duke C that is going against 6'10-7'0 players just about every game or the other guy who might face a handful of players his size game in and game out and not nearly as athletic or strong as the guy the Duke player faces? Same with G play.....The Duke kid is playing a schedule ranked top 5-10 , if not higher, most years, and playing against kids both in practice and in games just about as good and definitely as big plenty of times... It's a reason you see very few OL in the NFL who played at Nowhere State....

I agree it's not about stats, it's about the name on the front of the jersey. There can be a huge disparity in stats -- the guy from Nowhere State might have averaged 25 PPG and the guy from Duke might have averaged 12 PPG -- and the Duke guy has the advantage. You can't compare them against very much equal competition because they didn't play equal competition. You can't compare their team workouts because they're shooting in a mostly empty gym and none of your fans will get a chance to see the workout / compare. You can't put them into summer league games because that comes AFTER the draft.

So what are you left with? The name on the jersey. It helps you not get fired by the court of public opinion when the guy flames out. I've read many articles where, despite the best of intentions, GMs look at a guy they drafted in his first team workout and realize they made a mistake. It's still a bit of a crapshoot--you just don't know until he's on the floor with other NBA players. And if you draft Mr. Nowhere at #6 and he never plays you're a fool and a laughingstock. If you draft Mr. Duke and he never plays, well that player just didn't develop as expected.

The fact that you make this statement should tell you all you need to know about which one you would choose and why:

"Would you rather take a Duke C that is going against 6'10-7'0 players just about every game or the other guy who might face a handful of players his size game in and game out and not nearly as athletic or strong as the guy the Duke player faces?"

You're not even telling me the Nowhere State guy's strengths, weaknesses, weight, background, etc. It's a popularity contest, so pick the guy from Duke. That's the safe choice.

[ud2]

I heard Doug Flutie on tv say something similar about NFL qb's...they don't want to take a chance on the guy from nowhere, if he doesn't work out, it is the coach's/gm's/owner's fault, but if the guy from Southern Cal doesn't work out, it's on the player.

[ud2]

I could be wrong about what Flutie said, he might not have been addressing the BCS/non-BCS issue, he might have been referring to high draft pick qb's vs. low draft pick qb's or tall/prototype qb's vs. short/non-prototype qb's.

The gist of his comments were that a lot of coaches/gm's/owners are risk averse, so if they take a chance on a non-prototypical guy or low draft pick, then their butt is on the line. Their butt isn't on the line as much with the prototypical/high draft pick guys. Flutie also said that the non-prototype/low draft pick guys have to succeed right away, whereas the prototype/high draft pick guys get more leeway attributed to growing pains.

I think the same thinking applies to the BCS/non-BCS argument, you have to be really solid if you're non-BCS IMO. But, since I don't have anything to back up my opinion, it's just my opinion.

[PalmBeachFlyer]

I am convinced that a red-shirt year for Mikesell and Williams could pay long term dividends to player and program. With returning players plus Cooke, McElvene and Miller I just don't see enough minutes for everyone to gain valuable PT.

[BRob2Perryman3]

Originally Posted by PalmBeachFlyer I am convinced that a red-shirt year for Mikesell and Williams could pay long term dividends to player and program. With returning players plus Cooke, McElvene and Miller I just don't see enough minutes for everyone to gain valuable PT.

I think Miller could be the best of the incoming 4, and i wonder if he could be talked into the redshirt. I don't want to waste a year of his eligibility getting 5-8 minutes a game. of course he would have to be on board. Lets face it, we don't need him next year.

[BRob2Perryman3]

And i i agree 100% PalmBeach. Too many kids at the table and not enough Capn' Crunch in the box to feed them. Need Crosby's minutes. If Miller cares about academics and having a semblance of a college life, having 5 years to complete his 4 year degree could appeal to him. And 3 of his 4 years would be sans Pierre AND Pollard that way.

[THirt]

I think in this day and age, it's extremely unlikely for someone to take a redshirt for any reason besides injury or academic ineligibility (technically academic ineligibility isn't called a redshirt but whatever). Players don't want to waste a year of eligibility. They can get better throughout the year. With coach Miller's system, guys are getting better and better. Don't forget we played 11 guys in the first HALF of our Sweet Sixteen game one season prior. No way did Archie want to only play 6 1/2 guys - he did so out of pure necessity. We were very very lucky to avoid guys missing a game here and there with a rolled ankle or whatever. We may need the depth this year, and the guys coming in are skilled enough to command some playing time.

I'd be completely floored if we redshirt anyone.
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[Fudd]

Eleven scholarship players does not seem excessive to me. You'll normally get some guys getting sick, injured, and in foul trouble, etc throughout the year.