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View Poll Results: You Make the Call...over and back? or not?
Since the ball was tipped by VCU before going into the backcourt, it's NOT 'over and back'. 33 82.50%
Since UD touched it after VCU, it's their possession and 'over and back' is the correct call 7 17.50%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 11-27-2017, 11:38 AM
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you Make the Call - Over and Back

UD leads VCU 68-64 with 3:33 left in the 2nd half. As John Crosby crosses midcourt against a very effective 1-3-1 trap vs VCU, he splits 2 defenders and fires off a cross court pass to a nervous and jittery Jordan Davis. A split second before JDavis receives the ball, it is clearly tipped by a VCU defender, causing it to glance off JDavis' shoulder and bounce into the backcourt. As lead referee Clayton Valentine signals to the crowd that the ball was tipped, Crosby hustles to the ball and, without defensive pressure, picks up the ball and - once again - brings the ball up court with Clayton Valentine restarting the 10-second count.

But wait! From across the court, center ref Edwin DNutz blows his whistle loudly, runs to midcourt, and while throwing his arm back and forth over the midcourt line, signals 'over-and-back', awarding the ball to VCU. Meanwhile, lead official Rollo DeMayo checks out the VCU cheerleaders with disgust.

Dayton coach Anthony Grant explodes off the bench screaming in disbelief and chews out ref DNutz that not only isn't it his call, but it's the wrong call since VCU touched the ball first. Acknowledging that VCU touched the ball in the front court, ref DNutz calmly tells Coach Grant that VCU touching the ball doesn't matter since they never controlled it and, therefore, the ball was still in UD's possession at the time they knocked it into the backcourt....thus, by definition, it's over-and-back.

As referees Edwin DNutz, Clayton Valentine and Rollo DeMayo huddle at midcourt to discuss the situation, you have 30 seconds to Make-the-Call!
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Old 11-27-2017, 12:46 PM
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I thought the rule was if the ball was tipped by the defense, it's not over and back, even if it hit a UD player after. He did not have control of the ball so no over and back.
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:11 PM
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38 'views' and 6 votes tells me the know-it-alls don't know sh*t. Royal refs don't have time to look up anything. Read...vote...and take your punishment like a man!
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:26 PM
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New rule this year as I was listening to Jay Bilas explain it yesterday. If the VCU player touches it and deflects it off the offensive player it is a live ball for anyone to possess without violation, even in the backcourt.
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:32 PM
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I don't think it can be over and back if there was never possession in the front court. Possession does not mean "touch". No over and back here in my view. But I'm a fan, not a ref - I would not be surprised if this is another trick question from ref Rollo!

But should the 10 second count start over?
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by tirebiter View Post
I don't think it can be over and back if there was never possession in the front court.
Crosby was in the front court when he split the defenders and made the pass...
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Old 11-27-2017, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Clayton Valentine !
Clayton Valentine? My attorney will be in touch about my defamation of character lawsuit. (My character, not his, before any smart butt asks)
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Old 11-27-2017, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Crosby was in the front court when he split the defenders and made the pass...
The wording is: "...as he crosses midcourt..." That indicates to me he is still transitioning as he makes the pass that is tipped. He is in the process of entering the front court, but it's unclear whether he actually was in possession in the front court after he finished crossing midcourt.

Can't be over and back if he was never technically "over".
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Old 11-27-2017, 11:57 PM
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Dayton ball. No analysis needed, just makes sense.
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Old 11-28-2017, 01:01 AM
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More like Rollo Carstensen.
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Old 11-28-2017, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by tirebiter View Post
The wording is: "...as he crosses midcourt..." That indicates to me he is still transitioning as he makes the pass that is tipped. He is in the process of entering the front court, but it's unclear whether he actually was in possession in the front court after he finished crossing midcourt.

Can't be over and back if he was never technically "over".
"As he crosses midcourt..." is followed by "...he splits 2 defenders..." implying that he actually took a few more steps...

And if you know anything about a 1-3-1 press, it only works after the ball handler has entered the frontcourt so that the midcourt line can act as a defender.
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Old 11-28-2017, 09:54 AM
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UD ball, no violation because the ball was tipped by VCU.
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Old 11-28-2017, 11:16 AM
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Not surprised to see that DNutz made yet another bad call in a big game.....

Looking forward to starting another season in stripes this Friday night!
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Old 11-28-2017, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by dnutz77 View Post
Not surprised to see that DNutz made yet another bad call in a big game.....

Looking forward to starting another season in stripes this Friday night!
Not surprised to read about Rollo DeMayo.... His political aspirations are long gone.
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Old 11-28-2017, 01:17 PM
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Fun note: while in Charleston with my Clemson-fan wife, she heard the crowd yell "Good call, Teddy!" at Valentine during a UD game... but asked me why they were yelling "Good call, Titty"?

End of story. I still can't think about it and not laugh. Valentine is now and forever known as "Titty" to me.
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Old 11-29-2017, 08:23 AM
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Voting ends at 10:40.
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Old 11-29-2017, 11:46 AM
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Correct call: Over-and-Back. Why? Because a UD player caused the ball to pass behind the midcourt line and into the backcourt.

The Rule changed this year to - in simple terms that even John R could understand - no longer rely on 'possession' but to now rely on 'team control'. Touching the ball constitutes 'team control' and is why if a ball glances off a 'red' player and goes OB, the inbound goes to 'white'.

There are exceptions to this rule (jump ball, inbound passes...) but none apply here.

FWIW, I blew this call last week in a varsity scrimmage and was corrected between quarters. I went home to re-read my manuals and ref magazines and coincidentally as well as to my disbelief, the situation was described on the last page of my Referee magazine...so yes, the King was wrong...or was I? I mean, it was only a scrimmage...
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Old 11-29-2017, 02:47 PM
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I wish that I had seen that scrimmage.
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Old 11-29-2017, 04:31 PM
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*scrimmages are free...

Originally Posted by Fairborn Fan View Post
I wish that I had seen that scrimmage.
In all royal seriousness, I was worth the price of admission*!
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Old 11-30-2017, 10:08 AM
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Let's change it up. UD crosses half court with full possession. The next pass is in to Cunningham in the post where it is intercepted by VCU. The VCU post player who stole the ball see a VCU player streaking ahead for the layup. The full-court pass is tipped by Cunningham on UD's side of half court, causing it to be underthrown, and allowing Davis to regain possession--at the opposite foul line (in UD's back court).

It sounds like this would be ruled a turnover? And if so, making this one of the 3 worst rule changes in basketball history?
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Old 11-30-2017, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Let's change it up. UD crosses half court with full possession. The next pass is in to Cunningham in the post where it is intercepted by VCU. The VCU post player who stole the ball see a VCU player streaking ahead for the layup. The full-court pass is tipped by Cunningham on UD's side of half court, causing it to be underthrown, and allowing Davis to regain possession--at the opposite foul line (in UD's back court).

It sounds like this would be ruled a turnover? And if so, making this one of the 3 worst rule changes in basketball history?
In your example possession changed from UD to VCU to UD...in the original example UD had possession the entire time, but team control changed when it was tipped by VCU and then tipped again by UD.

Personally, I don't have to like the new interpretation...I just have to enforce it.
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Old 11-30-2017, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
In your example possession changed from UD to VCU to UD...in the original example UD had possession the entire time, but team control changed when it was tipped by VCU and then tipped again by UD.

Personally, I don't have to like the new interpretation...I just have to enforce it.
Not following. Crutcher throws to the post, stolen by VCU, touched by Cunningham (front court), and recovered by Davis (back court). So UD -> VCU -> UD(2). So if UD has "possession" in the front court (Cunningham's tip), the ball crosses the half court line, and then is picked up by Davis in the back court, isn't that over and back?
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Old 11-30-2017, 10:28 AM
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I got.it right! Putting a star on my report card.
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Old 11-30-2017, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Not following. Crutcher (UD possession) throws to the post, stolen by VCU (VCU possession) , touched by Cunningham (UD team control) (front court), and recovered by Davis (UD possession) (back court). So UD -> VCU -> UD(2). So if UD has "possession" in the front court (Cunningham's tip), the ball crosses the half court line, and then is picked up by Davis in the back court, isn't that over and back?
You're confusing 'possession' and 'team control'.

In your example, possession changed from UD to VCU to UD. With each possession change, everything starts over.

In my example, possession never changed but team control went from UD to VCU to UD. Possession doesn't change when team control changes...but team control changes when possession changes.

UGH!
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Old 11-30-2017, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
I got.it right! Putting a star on my report card.
Are you putting the star before or after the 'does not play well with others' comment? Or are you putting it over and covering the 'not'?
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