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  #1  
Old 12-03-2017, 11:24 PM
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Folks, we have a Point Guard problem

Tonight, Crutcher 33 minutes ZERO assists and 5 turnovers, Crosby 7 minutes ZERO assists and 2 turnovers. For those that don't want to take the time to do the math, that's ZERO assists and 7 turnovers from our PGs.

I don't care about the comeback, the lack of PGs creating plays is going to make this a long, ugly season.
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:27 PM
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Seriously Smitty?! Give Crutcher some time. Did you really think my beloved Flyers were going to win this game?
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:27 PM
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You go, Sherlock
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Willy418 View Post
Seriously Smitty?! Give Crutcher some time. Did you really think my beloved Flyers were going to win this game?
Excuse me? That's ZERO assists out of our PGs in 40 minutes. I'm not saying Crutcher isn't going to improve, but a PGs first job is Quarterbacking the offense and we have a Freshman getting 80 percent of the minutes getting no assists and a junior getting the other 20 percent also with no assists. This is a symptom of a very big problem that isn't going to fix itself very soon.

Figgie??? Can you look into your magic 8 ball or whatever you use and give me a comparison of this kind of stat from anytime in the past?
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
You go, Sherlock
Wanna take a crack at when the Flyers PG play in one game looked so atrocious? I'm guessing this might be historic.
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Excuse me? That's ZERO assists out of our PGs in 40 minutes. I'm not saying Crutcher isn't going to improve, but a PGs first job is Quarterbacking the offense and we have a Freshman getting 80 percent of the minutes getting no assists and a junior getting the other 20 percent also with no assists. This is a symptom of a very big problem that isn't going to fix itself very soon.
Could the problem possibly lie not with the point guards, but instead with the offense they are being tasked to run?
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by C-time View Post
Could the problem possibly lie not with the point guards, but instead with the offense they are being tasked to run?
Absolutely, but that still translates to a point guard problem. If you're right it's AG creating the point guard problem.
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Wanna take a crack at when the Flyers PG play in one game looked so atrocious? I'm guessing this might be historic.
When is the last time you got 18 points out of a PG not named Smith. Who in the hell do you want him to get involved in the offense? DDavis and Cunningham who were the other leading scorers? Trey? Kostas? The 3 for 13 out of the other or the 5 for 12 from your 2 guard? Assist come when everyone sans your top 3 scorers fo 8 for 25.

Jesus...yes...no assists isn't a good thing...you had a whopping 8 assists across the board. Atrocious? Hardly.
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Wanna take a crack at when the Flyers PG play in one game looked so atrocious? I'm guessing this might be historic.
No one knew Crosby would tank three years ago. The experience of the supporting cast definitely makes the position a more glaring weakness.
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
When is the last time you got 18 points out of a PG not named Smith. Who in the hell do you want him to get involved in the offense? DDavis and Cunningham who were the other leading scorers? Trey? Kostas? The 3 for 13 out of the other or the 5 for 12 from your 2 guard? Assist come when everyone sans your top 3 scorers fo 8 for 25.

Jesus...yes...no assists isn't a good thing...you had a whopping 8 assists across the board. Atrocious? Hardly.
WTF shocka? Is this or is this not a historic stat for the program? And is it not a symptom of our biggest issues on offense. That's all I'm saying. It's called a stat, a very shocking one. Learn to accept it. The PGs first job is to QB the offense. That's obviously not the role our PGs are taking. That's a problem whether you want to admit it or not.

Oh, and in answer to your irrelevant question, I'm going to guess it was by a PG named Dillard. But in all cases I'll bet you that both Smith and Dillard had assists during those game and not 5 flippin turnovers.

Last edited by Smitty10; 12-03-2017 at 11:54 PM..
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Tonight, Crutcher 33 minutes ZERO assists and 5 turnovers, Crosby 7 minutes ZERO assists and 2 turnovers. For those that don't want to take the time to do the math, that's ZERO assists and 7 turnovers from our PGs.

I don't care about the comeback, the lack of PGs creating plays is going to make this a long, ugly season.
Smitty- I have to absolutely and totally and completely disagree. This is the first game where Crutcher had more turnovers than assists. For the season he has 19 assists and 11 turnovers - those numbers are still pretty good even with tonight's bad ratio. I think you are way off base.
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ud69 View Post
Smitty- I have to absolutely and totally and completely disagree. This is the first game where Crutcher had more turnovers than assists. For the season he has 19 assists and 11 turnovers - those numbers are still pretty good even with tonight's bad ratio. I think you are way off base.
Off base how? Because it's basic basketball logic that if your PGs aren't getting others involved in the offense and turning the ball over, you've got issues. I realize we're not going to have zero/7 probably ever again, but it's a symptom of what's wrong with this offense AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE for awhile. I'm not blaming Crutcher, I believe freshman have a lot of slack, but it's still a current, big problem.
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:00 AM
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What Smitty says is true, but for today's game only. It was bad, but assists are not just on the PG. It takes two to tango. Crutcher will have ups and downs, he's a Freshman. Crosby is Crosby. There's always hope for improvement. Look at DD this year. Will just have to wait and watch.
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Figgie??? Can you look into your magic 8 ball or whatever you use and give me a comparison of this kind of stat from anytime in the past?
Assuming your standard point guards, but including some #2 who played point (Brian Roberts), 0 assists over 40 minutes I cannot find.

I have a number of games of 1 assists though, last time was against GW (2/6/15) and Scoochie only had 1 assists.

As for 0 assists, 7 turnovers, I have 1 ast/4 tos, most recently against Rhode Island, 2/12/2016. I have 2 ast/8 tos 1/24/07 against Duquesne.

Point guards assumed: (in no good order)
  • Scoochie Smith
  • London Warren
  • John Crosby
  • Jalen Crutcher
  • Kevin Dillard
  • Warren Williams
  • Steven Thomas
  • Brian Roberts
  • Mark Jones
  • Trent Meachem
  • Khari Price
  • Juwan Staten
  • Josh Parker
  • Ramod Marshall
  • David Morris
  • Rob Lowery
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:08 AM
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Smitty...

You are looking into this way to short sighted.

As mentioned above...the A/T ratio is okay for the year given the circumstances.

You also have to take into consideration the lack of shooting by the guys he distributed the ball to. I am with you on the ineffectiveness of the offense as today, the defense created transition to get them back into the game. But I sure as hell am not going to pile it on a freshman PG who played his ass off as stating that he is responsible for some "historic stat" deficiency that you focus on.

And you SHOULD care about the comeback because you can't teach heart and effort. Something that these guys dug down and found defensively to get back into the game. I will take a loss with plenty of blame to go around and stomach it, when I see three freshman on the court with a senior an an 11 game player from last year busting their asses.

Yes...a defeat snatched from the jaws of victory with the miffed last possession...but this game was bigger than the lack of assists from PGs'.
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Figgie123 View Post
Assuming your standard point guards, but including some #2 who played point (Brian Roberts), 0 assists over 40 minutes I cannot find.

I have a number of games of 1 assists though, last time was against GW (2/6/15) and Scoochie only had 1 assists.

As for 0 assists, 7 turnovers, I have 1 ast/4 tos, most recently against Rhode Island, 2/12/2016. I have 2 ast/8 tos 1/24/07 against Duquesne.

Point guards assumed: (in no good order)
  • Scoochie Smith
  • London Warren
  • John Crosby
  • Jalen Crutcher
  • Kevin Dillard
  • Warren Williams
  • Steven Thomas
  • Brian Roberts
  • Mark Jones
  • Trent Meachem
  • Khari Price
  • Juwan Staten
  • Josh Parker
  • Ramod Marshall
  • David Morris
  • Rob Lowery
Thanks Figgie. LOL, that was a very bad day for Scooch if I remember correctly. Wasn't that the game where he just stood there like a deer in the headlights and watched the put back after a Pierre blocked shot to lose a one point game?
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Off base how? Because it's basic basketball logic that if your PGs aren't getting others involved in the offense and turning the ball over, you've got issues. I realize we're not going to have zero/7 probably ever again, but it's a symptom of what's wrong with this offense AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE for awhile. I'm not blaming Crutcher, I believe freshman have a lot of slack, but it's still a current, big problem.
How you ask? Critcher's current assist/to ratio is 1.73. Scooch, as a frosh, was 1.78. Was tonight a bad ratio for Crutcher? Absolutely. Do you throw away Crutcher's 8 assists and no turnovers against Akron? Scooch also had a much better supporting cast as a freshman and was not asked to play near as many minutes as what we are asking of Crutcher.

Scooch, for his career, had an assist/to ratio of 2.0. I will bet that by the end of the year Crutcher may well do better than 2.0 as a freshman.

Figgie - when was the last time a Flyer had at least 8 assists with no turnovers?

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Old 12-04-2017, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Thanks Figgie. LOL, that was a very bad day for Scooch if I remember correctly. Wasn't that the game where he just stood there like a deer in the headlights and watched the put back after a Pierre blocked shot to lose a one point game?
Play-by-play agrees.

Code:

MISSED JUMPER by SAVAGE, Kethan                 00:01              BLOCK by PIERRE, Dyshawn
REBOUND (OFF) by McDONALD, Joe                  00:01
GOOD! TIP-IN by McDONALD, Joe [PNT]             00:01  65-64  H 1
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
Smitty...

You are looking into this way to short sighted.

As mentioned above...the A/T ratio is okay for the year given the circumstances.

You also have to take into consideration the lack of shooting by the guys he distributed the ball to. I am with you on the ineffectiveness of the offense as today, the defense created transition to get them back into the game. But I sure as hell am not going to pile it on a freshman PG who played his ass off as stating that he is responsible for some "historic stat" deficiency that you focus on.

And you SHOULD care about the comeback because you can't teach heart and effort. Something that these guys dug down and found defensively to get back into the game. I will take a loss with plenty of blame to go around and stomach it, when I see three freshman on the court with a senior an an 11 game player from last year busting their asses.

Yes...a defeat snatched from the jaws of victory with the miffed last possession...but this game was bigger than the lack of assists from PGs'.
I somewhat agree with you up to today, and am not piling on Crutcher as 7 of those minutes were played by Crosby and his numbers are much worse when stretched out. But my concern is that this offense is getting more stagnant every game. I find this very concerning and I think we can all agree it's because we're not getting off enough good shots. PG play is where you start but not end. Players tossing up floaters instead of taking it strong to the hoop, players shooting 3s early in the shot clock, and players forcing the issue inside when it's not there. But I have to look at PG play first because without your PGs finding even one easy pass in 40 minutes to me means they've lost sight of their role for at least these 40 minutes on this day. This looks like a situation going down hill to me. The come back shows some heart, but I'm seeing more and more leaks popping up with this team each game.
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
I somewhat agree with you up to today, and am not piling on Crutcher as 7 of those minutes were played by Crosby and his numbers are much worse when stretched out. But my concern is that this offense is getting more stagnant every game. I find this very concerning and I think we can all agree it's because we're not getting off enough good shots. PG play is where you start but not end. Players tossing up floaters instead of taking it strong to the hoop, players shooting 3s early in the shot clock, and players forcing the issue inside when it's not there. But I have to look at PG play first because without your PGs finding even one easy pass in 40 minutes to me means they've lost sight of their role for at least these 40 minutes on this day. This looks like a situation going down hill to me. The come back shows some heart, but I'm seeing more and more leaks popping up with this team each game.
I can't put it on a PG when I don't buy into the actual system presented.

This system needs efficient scorers. Scorers on ball and the assist stem from P&R and slips. Most of the assists have been in transition. One major criticism of AG's system is needing a PG to effectively run it. Well...we have an 18 year old in his 7th game...and the other option who is relegated to the bench.

I think you will find he will be one of the better PG's we have seen in some time. The "but" of this all is the fact he is a freshman and will still play like a freshman. This isn't UK, Duke, or UNC...our players aren't going to be perfect or world beaters from day one. Hell, Kostas comes out and people think he is the next coming of Hey-Sus and he is been a spectator for much of the last two games.
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Old 12-04-2017, 01:00 AM
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Crutcher had 19 assists to only 6 turnovers coming into game. His struggles had been with his shooting and he just had his best game of his young career in that area. Still going to take time to put it all together, but I saw more positives overall tonight in his development.
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Old 12-04-2017, 01:09 AM
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In other words, our PGs had 7 TOs, and their teammates around them had the other NINETEEN.

If Crutcher tosses an open guy the ball for a shot they could or should make, and they either miss the shot (happened a lot tonight) or have it stolen from them, the point guard is losing out on an opportunity to earn relatively easy assist.

Case in point: the steal and outlet pass to Darrell mid-way second half. Great pass, split defenders, Darrell ahead of the last defender and going for a layup or dunk. MSU defender recovers and deflects it off Darrell. Turnover Dayton on what should have been a gravy assist.

We had way too many turnovers tonight. Nobody is suggesting otherwise. So did Miss State. Kostas played 11 minutes, had 5 TOs and 4 fouls (and fouls can be quasi turnovers depending on when and where they occur). All those balls into Kostas that he butterfingered -- stronger hands may have resulted in easy lay-ins for more gravy assists.

If we want to burn the house down tonight and have a pity party, Crutcher is probably not the place to start. Without him, we're not even in it late. Sure, compared to Scoochie perhaps we'd have been up 12 pts. But nobody had to guard Scoochie tonight.

Crutcher is also passing to other true frosh: Svoboda missed at least 2 wide open treys that I remember. Jordan Davis missed a couple wide open ones. Kostas fumbled everything he touched to prevent any guards from earning assists.

Had the other guys not turned it over too and made more makeable shots, Crutcher probably ends up with 4-5 assists to go with those 7 TOs.

Stats are an interesting thing, but they cannot explain what the eyes tell you. Ill give you one stat that we KNOW would have made a difference -- especially late: making FTs. Crutcher was the only guy tonight to make all of his.

When you play four frosh heavy starter minutes (Crutcher, Svoboda, J. Davis, Kostas) you are gonna get exactly what fans witnessed tonight from time to time.

Every time I saw the SEC Network show the graphic about Miss State being ranked like #330 in experience, I wonder if they knew Dayton was ranked even worse. We have like the 7th fewest returning minutes on the court from last season.

Expect more games like this. And then nights when we look like we're cooking with gas.

One final note: tonight was the first time I thought our helter skelter defense posed significant problems for the opposition. We did well to trap in corners and cause TOs. My initial thought was "wow this is like Tark's amoeba D". Then about 60 seconds later I said, "wait...Ive seen this before...it looks like the defense Grant employed when he was at VCU." And it did.

Unfortunately right now Grant is doing it without Eric Maynor and Larry Sanders. But I did start to see some small flashes of the disruption. Full disclosure -- MSU was not good at countering it several times and missed chances to score against it. But I think its undeniable its the first time all season our defense was effective and disruptive for an extended period in the game -- no matter how it came about.
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Old 12-04-2017, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
We have like the 7th fewest returning minutes on the court from last season.
I think it is 3rd fewest...
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Old 12-04-2017, 07:53 AM
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I agree with everything Chris said above. I thought our defense started showing some backbone. I thought we missed too many FT and open shots. I thought we have to get better at ball-control in the paint, which encompasses several different problems. I thought we rebounded well except when we put up a three. It's a difficult offensive rebounding shot, but too many times we had no one in sight when we put up a three. I thought the assist problem wasn't an assist opportunity problem ( i.e. the PG) but a shooter not completing the opportunity problem. And I too noticed the lack of mentioning UDs returning minutes which has been written in every game preview released by UD this year. It's not like it was hard to find if you did your job in preparing for the broadcast.
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Old 12-04-2017, 08:16 AM
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We knew last year that, after the graduations, we would have a point guard problem this year. Crosby did not show a lot last year to make us confident this year. Works in progress.
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Old 12-04-2017, 08:41 AM
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The Offensive Engine Needs Some Oil

Oil in this case is a pass first point guard. Their are no Westbrook's on this team. I would start a walk-on ahead of either Crosby or Crutchins to show how to dribble penetrate and pass to the bigs. They better figure it out soon or more losses will come.
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Old 12-04-2017, 08:51 AM
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I must have missed the “Folks our point guard problems are solved” thread after Crutcher had 8 assists and no TOs a couple games ago. It is one game. Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems based on one game.
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Old 12-04-2017, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
I must have missed the “Folks our point guard problems are solved” thread after Crutcher had 8 assists and no TOs a couple games ago. It is one game. Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems based on one game.
Agree 100%. Most here are forgetting his 18 point output. This is all growing pains imo. Had the Flyers pulled off the amazing comeback to a win, most of the discussion now wouldn’t even touch the TO/A ratio
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Old 12-04-2017, 10:50 AM
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When was the last time a frosh point guard had 18 or more points? This kid will be very, very good. Not his fault the person catching his pass misses the shot or commits a turnover. One of the announcers on a game last week was praising his play by play guy for having 12 assists some game. The guys response, "My guys were shooting really well that night, it was only half me."
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Old 12-04-2017, 11:02 AM
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I have not been impressed with the PG play. They aren't really creating for anyone.

However, as mentioned above, they are the only reason for the turnover issues. For me, the absence of X is the biggest factor there.

- At this point last year, even with all the seniors, we were averaging 12 TO's a game.
- With X in the lineup, we are averaging 10 this year
- Without X in the lineup we are averaging 19 TO's
- Even after missing the last few games X is still only 3 off the leader in assists and has by far our best assist-to-turnover ratio.

He wasn't shooting well, but the offense is lost without him.
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Old 12-04-2017, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
I have not been impressed with the PG play. They aren't really creating for anyone.

However, as mentioned above, they are the only reason for the turnover issues. For me, the absence of X is the biggest factor there.

- At this point last year, even with all the seniors, we were averaging 12 TO's a game.
- With X in the lineup, we are averaging 10 this year
- Without X in the lineup we are averaging 19 TO's
- Even after missing the last few games X is still only 3 off the leader in assists and has by far our best assist-to-turnover ratio.

He wasn't shooting well, but the offense is lost without him.
It's hard to create offense when your team mates are running around the perimeter most of the time. It's like we're allergic to the post.
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Old 12-04-2017, 11:27 AM
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Another highly regarded frosh PG: 221 min 29 assists 19 TO
Crutcher 193 min 19 assists 11 TO

Not much difference there!

The other point guard is McKinley Wright.
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Another highly regarded frosh PG: 221 min 29 assists 19 TO
Crutcher 193 min 19 assists 11 TO

Not much difference there!

The other point guard is McKinley Wright.
-You forgot to mention that MW is also averaging 5 rebounds (Crutcher = 3.6)
-MW is shooting 53% from the field and 43.5% from 3. Crutcher is 33% and 27% from deep.
- MW is averaging 16 points per game vs Crutcher at 7.

But let's not let facts get in the way...
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Old 12-04-2017, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDuke2003 View Post
It's hard to create offense when your team mates are running around the perimeter most of the time. It's like we're allergic to the post.
That is absolutely a factor. I'm not trying to put all the blame on the PGs.

I know as Flyer fans we are all supposed to just think everything is great all the time and we have the 10 best players in the country. But when I watch the games, I am not overly impressed with the PG play. Even if we clean up the other issues (and there are plenty of them) the PGs will hold us back this year. Crutcher can develop into a good PG for us, but that is not a short term thing. He isn't the "now" solution. He is out there out of necessity. That will help speed up his development, which will help.
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Old 12-04-2017, 01:09 PM
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Without Josh there is no post.

John Crosby looked like last year.
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Old 12-04-2017, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Off base how? Because it's basic basketball logic that if your PGs aren't getting others involved in the offense and turning the ball over, you've got issues.
Off base because you're extrapolating a bad night into a season-long problem.

It MAY BE a season long problem. It was a single game last night. Overall Crutcher's numbers have not been terrible.
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Old 12-04-2017, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
That is absolutely a factor. I'm not trying to put all the blame on the PGs.

I know as Flyer fans we are all supposed to just think everything is great all the time and we have the 10 best players in the country. But when I watch the games, I am not overly impressed with the PG play. Even if we clean up the other issues (and there are plenty of them) the PGs will hold us back this year. Crutcher can develop into a good PG for us, but that is not a short term thing. He isn't the "now" solution. He is out there out of necessity. That will help speed up his development, which will help.
I believe there is no "now" solution. We knew that coming into the season. All the frosh are on a rather steep learning curve, but as you say it will speed up their development.
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Old 12-04-2017, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Off base because you're extrapolating a bad night into a season-long problem.

It MAY BE a season long problem. It was a single game last night. Overall Crutcher's numbers have not been terrible.
You're absolutely right, I am projecting. And I'm projecting because as I said in an earlier thread, this team is on a downward spiral offensively, they seem to be springing more leaks each game. Hey, they might put on the brakes of this downward spiral and start an upswing, if having to bet however, I would bet that it gets worse not better.

And Crutcher's overall numbers have been pretty good. I said we've got a point guard problem and I honestly meant that in general, not the point guards themselves. The problem might be Anthony Grant's offense, but it translates to a Point Guard problem. I guess what I mean by that is that you can look at what the point guards are doing and not doing out there and figure out that we have a problem whether that means the point guard's actually not getting the ball to the open man or there not being an open man or the open man not handling and finishing what the point guard is giving them. While maybe I should've been clearer about that, I meant no disrespect to either of PGs with that statement, especially the freshman.

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Old 12-04-2017, 02:14 PM
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well..these last 2 games were the first ones i'vebeen able to sit and watch. stating the obvious, we have not been a very good team. I don't think it's fair to put so much on a fresman PG on a team that has turned it over so much. for the Auburn game and the first 25 minutes of the MSU game, i think you have to put a decent mount of the onus on Josh. he was a turnover machine for a game and a half. don't think it was an accident we started coming back when he started scoring rather than trning it over. And given his competetiveness i'm sure he is being double hard on himself. Also, as impressed in a lot of ways that DD is, i was uncomfortable with him at the top of the key with the ball at the end of the game. I just don't think he has the handle to manage that on a consistent basis. this may go gainst the grain for that end of game situation but i wouldn't have minded seeing the ball move around to get MSU moving. DD got himself in a tough spot and got burned. Anyway on a team like this, you have to look to the upperclassmen. DD has done well, albeit not flawlessly, and Josh needs to play more consistently. getting X back should be a big help. I'm not saying we are going to be world beaters, but i see a team very capable of improving a lot as the season progresses (and we saw glimpses in the 2nd half last night for sure), and we will be very happy on a several nights...and probably have to go through a few more frustrating nights to get there. another thing I do like is that the team does not have quit. gept working against Auburn and last night waas almost a miracle.

i hope this makes sense. it's incomplete but it is my first impression so take it for what it is. tough to go through, but i'm not giving anything up yet.

ps...i hope i never have to be subjected to that SEC announcing team again. horrible.
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Old 12-04-2017, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
-You forgot to mention that MW is also averaging 5 rebounds (Crutcher = 3.6)
-MW is shooting 53% from the field and 43.5% from 3. Crutcher is 33% and 27% from deep.
- MW is averaging 16 points per game vs Crutcher at 7.

But let's not let facts get in the way...
MNFats, I like McKinley Wright as a player just as much as you do. I was ecstatic when I thought he was coming here. However, we have to play the cards that have been dealt!

I may be wrong but I don't think that jack72 was trying to say that Jalen was just as good as McKinley by making the comparison of minutes, assists and turnovers. Wright was given the keys from the very first game and his Colorado team had their first 6 games at home and were 6-0 against teams with a combined record of 24-24. They lost their only road game this past weekend to Colorado St. and are now 6-1. Colorado plays X at the Cintas Center this Sat. I am anxious to see the results of that game. Besides Wright, they start 3 seniors and a junior transfer from Missouri who averaged 9.6 pts and 5.2 reb for the Tigers. Wright is averaging 31.5 minutes to Crutchers 27.6 minutes (34 and 33 in the past 2 games has pushed that average way up!) Of Jalen's 19 assists, 13 have been in the 3 wins and 6 in the losses. Of his 11 turnovers, 8 have been in the 4 losses and 3 in the wins.

Turnovers are hurting the Flyers more than anything especially the 19 and 26 in the most recent two losses in a row to Auburn and Miss. St. In the first 5 games it was acceptable: 11, 8, 12, 9, and 14. The 19 and 26 are not acceptable! Every turnover could be looked at as a 4 point swing! If I was AG I would set the goal at 10 or below and run their arse off for anything above. Right now, it seems that bad passes and dribbling into traffic has become the norm and it has to stop or the Flyers are in for a long season!

Some things a player cannot control but turnovers and free throws are two that they can! They must improve in both areas.

I think all the freshman are on a big learning curve and we should see improvement with each and every game but we are spoiled because of the past four years and want to see immediate results. Well, it just isn't going to happen overnight! I think Jalen Crutcher will be fine and we will at least be competitive by the time the A-10 conference games start.

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Old 12-04-2017, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
You're absolutely right, I am projecting. And I'm projecting because as I said in an earlier thread, this team is on a downward spiral offensively, they seem to be springing more leaks each game.
Maybe because we're rebuilding.
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Old 12-04-2017, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
-You forgot to mention that MW is also averaging 5 rebounds (Crutcher = 3.6)
-MW is shooting 53% from the field and 43.5% from 3. Crutcher is 33% and 27% from deep.
- MW is averaging 16 points per game vs Crutcher at 7.

But let's not let facts get in the way...
I think Wright is a better player (at least right now) than Crutcher. I think that is what you wanted to hear. Can we move that discussion back to the thread you started to pay homage to the kid that chose not to play for Dayton?
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Old 12-04-2017, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Maybe because we're rebuilding.
Or maybe it's the coaching.

Really is concerning because teams that spiral downward tend to develop attitude and chemistry problems. When that happens during the year of a coaching change it's even more frightening because the Freshman that were recruited by the old coach are more likely less entrenched and less committed to the program. A year that ends with bad tastes in the mouth will probably lose us a couple players that we are counting on to speed up the process of the improvement, chemistry development and your favorite term "Rebuilding".

Hopefully it turns around, but if it doesn't, it's quite a hard fall that's going to be difficult to get up from. And by turn around, I mean ending the season on much more positives than negatives to build upon with players that are happy and see a bright future with the program. This is why your statement that it was just one game and might or might not be for the rest of the season is a crucial one. Because the difference in what the team looks like in the next few years probably depends on which way it goes this season.

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Old 12-04-2017, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Or maybe it's the coaching.

Really is concerning because teams that spiral downward tend to develop attitude and chemistry problems. When that happens during the year of a coaching change it's even more frightening because the Freshman that were recruited by the old coach are more likely less entrenched and less committed to the program. A year that ends with bad tastes in the mouth will probably lose us a couple players that we are counting on to speed up the process of the improvement, chemistry development and your favorite term "Rebuilding".

Hopefully it turns around, but if it doesn't, it's quite a hard fall that's going to be difficult to get up from. And by turn around, I mean ending the season on much more positives than negatives to build upon with players that are happy and see a bright future with the program. This is why your statement that it was just one game and might or might not be for the rest of the season is a crucial one. Because the difference in what the team looks like in the next few years probably depends on which way it goes this season.
So let it be said, so let it be done. Let's fire the coach, cancel the 2018 and 2019 seasons and come out smoking in 2020 with Ray Harper.

What a bunch of horse puckey. If was a one game sample size with lots of contributing factors.

I for one would prefer AG to teach his system this year to those who will be here for the next 3-4 years rather than create a 1 year system that might better fit the 'talent' this current group has. Gotta look big picture. We don't have the horses this year and most of us knew that coming I got the year.

I saw much improvement on D and in effort last night. It's there if you want to see it. Just take off your unrealistic expectations spectacles (X all conference - Kostas 1st round draft pick next spring) and enjoy the ride watching the young talent grow while they make mistakes along the way.

And MN keep finding a way to turn every thread about our Flyers into a MW pep rally. I don't think CW ever got this much love on this site.
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Old 12-04-2017, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
-You forgot to mention that MW is also averaging 5 rebounds (Crutcher = 3.6)
-MW is shooting 53% from the field and 43.5% from 3. Crutcher is 33% and 27% from deep.
- MW is averaging 16 points per game vs Crutcher at 7.

But let's not let facts get in the way...
This thread was not about rebounds and scoring!
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Old 12-04-2017, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
This thread was not about rebounds and scoring!
The title of the thread is "Folks, we have a point guard problem". The thread is about PGs - and you brought in a comparison to another PG. I just finished the comparison.

I just want to note for the record that someone else brought the other PG into this. Just want to make that clear before I'm accused of being his uncle or his dentist.
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Old 12-04-2017, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
The title of the thread is "Folks, we have a point guard problem". The thread is about PGs - and you brought in a comparison to another PG. I just finished the comparison.

I just want to note for the record that someone else brought the other PG into this. Just want to make that clear before I'm accused of being his uncle or his dentist.
You also wanted to make a lot of other things clear about him, didn't you.

Thanks, buddy. We got it. Really, we do. No clarifications or comparisons needed for the next four years.

It's like if somebody even thinks "point guard", a Minnesota-shaped beacon goes off and you feel the need to weigh in.

Again, WE GOT IT.
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Old 12-04-2017, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Because the difference in what the team looks like in the next few years probably depends on which way it goes this season.
That seems premature. Archie went backwards in Year 2.

I guess that progress is not always linear.

If AG has not made significant progress by the end of Year 3, then I think he will be under pressure.

We will just have to wait and see. This is going to be a much more anxious wait vs. when Archie took over, because we were sort of stagnating with BG, and many were ready for a change.
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Old 12-04-2017, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Or maybe it's the coaching.

Really is concerning because teams that spiral downward tend to develop attitude and chemistry problems. When that happens during the year of a coaching change it's even more frightening because the Freshman that were recruited by the old coach are more likely less entrenched and less committed to the program. A year that ends with bad tastes in the mouth will probably lose us a couple players that we are counting on to speed up the process of the improvement, chemistry development and your favorite term "Rebuilding".

Hopefully it turns around, but if it doesn't, it's quite a hard fall that's going to be difficult to get up from. And by turn around, I mean ending the season on much more positives than negatives to build upon with players that are happy and see a bright future with the program. This is why your statement that it was just one game and might or might not be for the rest of the season is a crucial one. Because the difference in what the team looks like in the next few years probably depends on which way it goes this season.
I bet wherever you work, every time they make a change, you spend two years telling everyone else how much the change sucks, how stupid it is, and how much better things were before.

Until the change becomes entrenched, and you learn to live with it and after a while, you wonder how you lived without it.

Then the next change happens. Repeat the cycle.

It's just as insufferable as it sounds.
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Old 12-04-2017, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
The title of the thread is "Folks, we have a point guard problem". The thread is about PGs - and you brought in a comparison to another PG. I just finished the comparison.

I just want to note for the record that someone else brought the other PG into this. Just want to make that clear before I'm accused of being his uncle or his dentist.
It was me that thought that and I was clearly wrong. It's abundantly obvious now that you are either his mom or girlfriend.
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Old 12-04-2017, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
That seems premature. Archie went backwards in Year 2.

I guess that progress is not always linear.

If AG has not made significant progress by the end of Year 3, then I think he will be under pressure.

We will just have to wait and see. This is going to be a much more anxious wait vs. when Archie took over, because we were sort of stagnating with BG, and many were ready for a change.
Yes, this is the reality.

Now how about that scheduling model?
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Old 12-04-2017, 05:10 PM
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Playing PG is hard, very hard, especially for a freshman, who is surrounded by other inexperienced players.

Criticizing an inexperienced freshman PG on a message board is easy, especially for anyone who likely never started as a freshman PG on a D1 basketball team.

Give the kid a break.

All that's gonna matter this year is how this team rolls into shape come A10 time, and how they improve (or not) going forward. None of which we're gonna know at this stage of game.

The only PG problem we have is that Scoochie Smith spoiled the he[[ out of us, and then graduated.
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Old 12-04-2017, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
I bet wherever you work, every time they make a change, you spend two years telling everyone else how much the change sucks, how stupid it is, and how much better things were before.

Until the change becomes entrenched, and you learn to live with it and after a while, you wonder how you lived without it.

Then the next change happens. Repeat the cycle.
the
It's just as insufferable as it sounds.
You would be wrong. You know why? I don't work, I'm one of the fortunate ones who worked hard, invested my money wisely and retired at the age of 56. So let's now judge you. Still working? How's that light at the end of the tunnel looking? Probably a train, but you wouldn't recognize it.

Oh, by the way, a little research and I find out you think it's the coaching too. http://www.udpride.com/forums/showth...206#post497206

In case I need to spell it out for you. Your post says that we should be reloading not rebuilding because that's what we should expect out of Archie and that we should expect nothing less than another NCAA appearance this season. Well, with minimal differences other than the coach, you argue with me at every turn when I say we're not rebuilding. So it's got to be the coach right?

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Old 12-04-2017, 05:31 PM
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My mantra has become, "New coach, new system, new players". Everybody needs to slow down and chill out. The sky is not falling, we are 1 game below 500. Relax and take a deep breath.
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Old 12-04-2017, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
You also wanted to make a lot of other things clear about him, didn't you.

Thanks, buddy. We got it. Really, we do. No clarifications or comparisons needed for the next four years.

It's like if somebody even thinks "point guard", a Minnesota-shaped beacon goes off and you feel the need to weigh in.

Again, WE GOT IT.
Again - I'm not the one who brought him into the conversation. Never even occurred to me. I read the thread and commented on the absence of X and the impact to the offense. Someone else made the comparison. I completed it.

I can't even think of the last time I brought him into a conversation without someone else bring him up first. But again, let's not let facts get in the way of a good rant.

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Old 12-04-2017, 05:43 PM
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Some kenpom facts. And yes acknowledge 7 games is a small sample size. But Crutcher is off to a promising start (even though I personally would like him to stop shooting the floater and stop gunning 3s from 25 feet). Crutcher is ahead of Scoochie at this point during their Freshman years. Crutches is ahead of Crosby's best year. Crutcher is behind McKinley Wright (but right now McKinley Wright as a Freshman is ahead of Scoochie's senior year, again acknowledging small sample size).

BTW, the 103 Crutcher offensive rating versus Miss St. is objectively a good Freshman PG game. Yes 5 TOs and 0 assists, but offset by 2 steals, 3 rebounds, 18 points on 2/3 from 2, 4/8 from 3, and 2/2 FT.

Crutcher has an offensive rating of 94.2 through 7 games with the last three games being 124 Arkron, 117 Auburn, and 103 Miss St. (brought down by TOs and lack of assists, but still a good rating).

Scoochie had an offensive rating of 85.1 through 7 games his freshman year (after taking out IPFW and St. Francis PA as did not have offensive rating for IPFW and had a zero for St. Francis so this 85.1 is generous to Scoochie). Also for the year, Scoochie had a 89.5 offensive rating. Last 7 games of the year he had a 85.9 (admittedly versus better competition and not including St. Joe's A-10 where he did not have an offensive rating).

McKinley Wright has a 115.1 through 7 games (Scoochie's best year was senior year at 113.4, junior year at 110.1, sophomore at 102.7, and again freshman at 89.5).

Crosby this year is at 88.1 offensive rating trending down, sophomore year at 75.7 and freshman year at 76.5.

*Offensive rating is the personal version of team offensive efficiency and looks at every offensive factor. Detailed explanation at https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html

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Old 12-04-2017, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
I bet wherever you work, every time they make a change, you spend two years telling everyone else how much the change sucks, how stupid it is, and how much better things were before.

Until the change becomes entrenched, and you learn to live with it and after a while, you wonder how you lived without it.

Then the next change happens. Repeat the cycle.

It's just as insufferable as it sounds.
C'mon. We are all here because we love the same team. Let's talk basketball and ease up on the personal attacks. People are going to disagree with you. It's OK. If you have a counter-point...then make it.
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Old 12-04-2017, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Some kenpom facts. And yes acknowledge 7 games is a small sample size. But Crutcher is off to a promising start (even though I personally would like him to stop shooting the floater and stop gunning 3s from 25 feet). Crutcher is ahead of Scoochie at this point during their Freshman years. Crutches is ahead of Crosby's best year. Crutcher is behind McKinley Wright (but right now McKinley Wright as a Freshman is head of Scoochie's senior year, again acknowledging small sample size).

BTW, the 103 Crutcher offensive rating versus Miss St. is objectively a good Freshman PG game. Yes 5 TOs and 0 assists, but offset by 2 steals, 3 rebounds, 18 points on 2/3 from 2, 4/8 from 3, and 2/2 FT.

Crutcher has an offensive rating of 94.2 through 7 games with the last three games being 124 Arkron, 117 Auburn, and 103 Miss St. (brought down by TOs and lack of assists, but still a good rating).

Scoochie had an offensive rating of 85.1 through 7 games his freshman year (after taking out IPFW and St. Francis PA as did not have offensive rating for IPFW and had a zero for St. Francis so this 85.1 is generous to Scoochie). Also for the year, Scoochie had a 89.5 offensive rating. Last 7 games of the year he had a 85.9 (admittedly versus better competition and not including St. Joe's A-10 where he did not have an offensive rating).

McKinley Wright has a 115.1 through 7 games (Scoochie's best year was senior year at 113.4, junior year at 110.1, sophomore at 102.7, and again freshman at 89.5).

Crosby this year is at 88.1 offensive rating trending down, sophomore year at 75.7 and freshman year at 76.5.

*Offensive rating is the personal version of team offensive efficiency and looks at every offensive factor. Detailed explanation at https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html
Good info Rue. But wouldn't you expect that more playing time would make that number rise for a freshman? Meaning that Scooch couldn't earn it because he had a legit ball handling, game managing point guard ahead of him while Crutcher only has to beat out Crosby(who by the way, the numbers on him are very telling).

Scooch is also unique and that uniqueness makes him more valuable than his numbers indicate IMO. Scooch possessed the offensive skills to carry the team on his back at times, but choose very carefully when to use them and when to try and Quarterback the team and get them involved in the offense. He was very unselfish even though he possessed the skills to not always be so.

I just don't think we'll ever be able to paint a picture of how good Scoochie Smith was with stats other than wins and losses.
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Old 12-04-2017, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Good info Rue. But wouldn't you expect that more playing time would make that number rise for a freshman? Meaning that Scooch couldn't earn it because he had a legit ball handling, game managing point guard ahead of him while Crutcher only has to beat out Crosby(who by the way, the numbers on him are very telling).

Scooch is also unique and that uniqueness makes him more valuable than his numbers indicate IMO. Scooch possessed the offensive skills to carry the team on his back at times, but choose very carefully when to use them and when to try and Quarterback the team and get them involved in the offense. He was very unselfish even though he possessed the skills to not always be so.

I just don't think we'll ever be able to paint a picture of how good Scoochie Smith was with stats other than wins and losses.
Scoochie averaged about 19 minutes a game in these 7 games and Crutcher has averaged 26 a game. Fair point, more minutes you would think equates to a better offensive rating because more experience, but I don't think the difference between the two, talking about Crutcher 49 minutes more than Scoochie through 7 games should impact it that much. I don't know how to think about better 2014 team. It would help with assists, TOs, and rebounds I think, but hurt with FGs and FTs attempted.

Anyway, Crutcher showing some good offensive signs the last three games.
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Old 12-04-2017, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
C'mon. Let's talk basketball and ease up on the personal attacks.
Not to mention the d!ck measuring contest!
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Old 12-04-2017, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Scoochie averaged about 19 minutes a game in these 7 games and Crutcher has averaged 26 a game. Fair point, more minutes you would think equates to a better offensive rating because more experience, but I don't think the difference between the two, talking about Crutcher 49 minutes more than Scoochie through 7 games should impact it that much. I don't know how to think about better 2014 team. It would help with assists, TOs, and rebounds I think, but hurt with FGs and FTs attempted.

Anyway, Crutcher showing some good offensive signs the last three games.
Okay, but here's the thing, I watched first hand the way Scooch played in Maui and you can tell when he was inserted, his job was to eat up minutes without turning the ball over and losing ground while Price got a breather. Basically, they were just asking him to be careful with the ball as those games had huge implications and it was obvious that Arch (as he was known to do) put in his backups to just eat minutes, not light a fire, expand a lead or close a gap.

Due to the situation this year, it's apparent that Grant is not being so cautious with Crutcher. He's actually being sent in to create offense, not protect the ball and eat up minutes.

Doesn't that make a difference? Oh, and yes, I admit once again, Crutcher has impressed me overall.
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Old 12-04-2017, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Okay, but here's the thing, I watched first hand the way Scooch played in Maui and you can tell when he was inserted, his job was to eat up minutes without turning the ball over and losing ground while Price got a breather. Basically, they were just asking him to be careful with the ball as those games had huge implications and it was obvious that Arch (as he was known to do) put in his backups to just eat minutes, not light a fire, expand a lead or close a gap.

Due to the situation this year, it's apparent that Grant is not being so cautious with Crutcher. He's actually being sent in to create offense, not protect the ball and eat up minutes.

Doesn't that make a difference? Oh, and yes, I admit once again, Crutcher has impressed me overall.
Scoochie was taking shots on 16.0% of the possessions he was on the court for in 2014 and averaged about 4 shots a game (counting FTs as 1/2 shot); Crutcher is taking shots on 19.5% of the possessions he was on the court for thus far and averaged 7.9 shots per game (counting FTs as 1/2 shot -- again Crutcher averaging about 33% more playing time per game than Scoochie). Math might not tie out completely as this is back-of-the-napkin (didn't take into account # of possessions per game for 2014 team versus 2018, etc.).
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Old 12-04-2017, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
Not to mention the d!ck measuring contest!
I'm all about more, Teddy BROSevelt..
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Old 12-04-2017, 07:44 PM
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While not a point guard, LiAngelo Ball is now available for the Flyers. Includes all the free publicity you would want. Probably would get us into the Big East as well.
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Old 12-04-2017, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
While not a point guard, LiAngelo Ball is now available for the Flyers. Includes all the free publicity you would want. Probably would get us into the Big East as well.
I am sure that father son act will sit out this year and go right to the NBA draft.
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Old 12-04-2017, 08:41 PM
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I think people need to realize that it takes 2 to create an assist. There were several times when our PG made the correct pass only to have the receiver fumble it away or miss an open shot. Assists may be one of the most misleading stats out there from the standpoint that you may set up your teammates only to have them miss an open look. The best assist men have teammates who can make shots.
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Old 12-04-2017, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyer14 View Post
My mantra has become, "New coach, new system, new players". Everybody needs to slow down and chill out. The sky is not falling, we are 1 game below 500. Relax and take a deep breath.
Agreed. Some of the posters here, and there are only a couple, remind me of 2014 when we lost 4 straight in conference and we're calling AM the worst coach ever and asking for his head. How soon they forget.
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Old 12-04-2017, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post

Oh, by the way, a little research and I find out you think it's the coaching too. http://www.udpride.com/forums/showth...206#post497206
Circumstances change. Miller gets suspended, Mikesell has hip surgery, X has missed 3 games, we lost a heralded point guard recruit.

People are allowed to change their minds presented with new facts. In no way am I ready to blame the coaching.

In case I need to spell it out for you. Your post says that we should be reloading not rebuilding because that's what we should expect out of Archie and that we should expect nothing less than another NCAA appearance this season. Well, with minimal differences other than the coach, you argue with me at every turn when I say we're not rebuilding. So it's got to be the coach right?
There is not enough evidence to say if it is the coaching. The staff certainly has room for criticism.

My point is simply, it appears that you have absolute certainty that this coach is terrible and we should give up on him already. It is getting old, if it's not there already.
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Old 12-05-2017, 05:26 AM
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Go Flyers?
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Old 12-05-2017, 08:29 AM
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Old 12-05-2017, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Yep, I see your point, Miller and Mikesell get us to the the big dance. Do you hear yourself? You got a hard on for either me one way or Grant the other, but you're not making sense. Let me get this straight, the topic is about a point guard problem and you now use the fact we lost McKinley Wright and got Crutcher as a replacement as your position in attacking me? Your point isn't simple, but simple describes you.

You're a real piece of work you know it? Not once have I said definitively that the problem is the coach. Just that there is a problem and it might be the coach. I've expressed that over and over and over yet any time I say that there's a problem and it could be this, or it could be that or it could be the coach you come on and tell me I'm picking on Grant. Now, quit stalking me, believe me, you're not my type. You have to be female and you have to have functioning brain cells. Not sure you're disqualified by the former but absolutely positive the latter eliminates you.
I'm not an "internet beef" kinda guy, but I'm also not a "give up on my argument" kinda guy either.

For someone who "isn't sure" it's the coaching, you sure have a lot of things to say about the coaching. Since you felt the need to dig through my post history and come up with one possible contradiction (which you really could've done better on), how about this?

In response to "maybe the problem is the offense and not the point guards":
If you're right it's AG creating the point guard problem.
In response to Crosby not playing vs. Auburn:
Seriously makes me wonder. The guy who had an offseason issue with the coach is being made an example of during the season in favor of coach's only recruit.
About the Mississippi State starting lineup:
AG says the only reason Crutcher got more minutes was due to matchup and strategy. Whether you believe him or not, if he turns around and makes Crutcher the starter right after that, it makes him look dishonest.
About XW taking too many 3's:
Is Anthony Grant conveying the same thing as this thread? Is Grant telling him not to be camping out for the 3 and to be providing help on the inside? If he's not, blame the coach, if he is and XW isn't listening to him, blame both, XW for not listening to the coach and Grant for not enforcing his orders. As hard as it is, if a player is ignoring the coach, you have to sit him until he gets it in his head that it's in his best interest to follow the instructions.
One way blame Grant. The other way... also blame Grant. Solid.

Many, many posts in this thread talking about how AM's year with 6 scholarship players was much harder than coaching this team. But mainly this one:

If it does turn into a debacle, everything AM built this program up to will crumble and we'll be back to 2011. If all of AG's past perceived failings shows up here, Neil Sullivan will go down as the single biggest destroyer of UD's basketball program in our history and deservedly so.
In the Ohio U. game thread, about Crutcher playing more than the Cros:
Hopefully it isn't favoritism toward his own recruit over Archie's and hopefully it's not a grudge based on the offseason blow up.
Reaction to Oklahoma beating Ball State like a rented mule after we needed a buzzer-beater to win:
Let's start a list now. 1st name on it is longtimefan. The list? Anthony Grant Apologists.
I'm sure your argument will be that you keep saying "IF" a lot. If, if, if.

Hey man, if you want to keep on beating that horse. Beat it up. Beat it good. For my part, I'll promise to stay out of your super-negative threads from now on.

But it appears you're having a pretty negative reaction to what is obviously going to be a down year. I don't like losing either, but I can live with it. What I do have a problem with is constant intimation without outright stating. "Maybe" Grant is the problem... but maybe not!!! Crutcher might suck... but sometimes he's good!!! XW is terrible... except when he isn't!!!

What it looks like is, you are trying to have it both ways. You really think Grant sucks, but you don't want to just come out and say he sucks. So you drop these "if" scenarios... A LOT.

Take a stand and stick with it. Everyone will respect you a whole lot more.

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Old 12-05-2017, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
lol, I'd love to meet you face to face, pretty sure you wouldn't talk to me the way you do here. I'm pretty sure I'd have no problem talking to you the way I do here.
This is my favorite post because it is accompanied with a photo of a cartoon horse wearing a hat. The internet is amazing.
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Old 12-05-2017, 11:47 AM
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I read this thread and can't help picturing this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrF92qOw8OA
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Old 12-05-2017, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
I read this thread and can't help picturing this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrF92qOw8OA
Gold.
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Old 12-06-2017, 09:02 AM
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That show was hilarious
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
That show was hilarious
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And at times so politically in-correct during an era we could all laugh at ourselves without getting panties in a wad (how the heck do you spell wad????) or taking a knee to protest.
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:40 AM
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In honor of Fred, I suggest you all enjoy a nice glass of gripple while watching the game tonight and when the Flyers win, toast it with a glass of champipple.
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Old 12-06-2017, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer View Post
It was a one game sample size with lots of contributing factors.
This sums it up. When Crutcher had 8 assists and no turnovers I don't recall him starting a thread, "Folks, we have a great point guard."
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Old 12-06-2017, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
This sums it up. When Crutcher had 8 assists and no turnovers I don't recall him starting a thread, "Folks, we have a great point guard."
But you are doing the same thing. You are saying we can't be worried after one bad game, but you are cherry-picking his best game to show why we are OK.

He has yet to play a game where I feel like he played well in all phases. Even in his 8 (assist) - 0 (turnover) game he shot 1-7. Also - take out that one game (which for me is the outlier) and he has a 1:1 Assist/Turnover ratio. Not great for a PG.

Don't get me wrong, as I stated earlier, he is being forced into a situation he isn't ready for. That's not his fault and it will only help him down the road. He's doing the best he can. But to say we don't have at least a short-term PG problem is incorrect in my opinion.
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Old 12-06-2017, 03:55 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fya3_aak94

Saw this on the youtube page and had to post it.
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Old 12-06-2017, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
But you are doing the same thing. You are saying we can't be worried after one bad game, but you are cherry-picking his best game to show why we are OK.
Where did I say we can't be worried and where did I say we are OK???
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Old 12-06-2017, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Where did I say we can't be worried and where did I say we are OK???
I think what you were saying was if you had started a thread a couple games ago entiled '8 assists 0 TOs - woo woo Scoochie Who?' you had better be prepared to receive some serious flack.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:22 PM
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Not tonight!!
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
This sums it up. When Crutcher had 8 assists and no turnovers I don't recall him starting a thread, "Folks, we have a great point guard."
Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Where did I say we can't be worried and where did I say we are OK???
Apologies if I misunderstood the intent of your post.

I took your message to mean that we can't declare a PG problem after one bad game. I'm not in the Doomsday bunker with Smitty and UDScott, but my point is that none of them have really been good games for our PGs - even the 8:0 game you pointed out.

Again - sorry if I misunderstood.
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:31 PM
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I think both of the point guards played well tonight. I was at the game and I believe they had four turnovers between the two of them. This team does have a problem with taking too long to get its offense in gear; some of that is indeed on the point guard.
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Old Yesterday, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by TommyGola View Post
This team does have a problem with taking too long to get its offense in gear; some of that is indeed on the point guard.
AMEN. Too many chucks with 2 seconds or less on the shot clock. I think we'll see teams "pressing" just to take time off the clock to create more of those "under 2 second chucks". It gets frustrating to see us passing outside the 3 point line for nearly a full possession.
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