Folks, we have a Point Guard problem

[Smitty10]

Tonight, Crutcher 33 minutes ZERO assists and 5 turnovers, Crosby 7 minutes ZERO assists and 2 turnovers. For those that don't want to take the time to do the math, that's ZERO assists and 7 turnovers from our PGs.

I don't care about the comeback, the lack of PGs creating plays is going to make this a long, ugly season.

[Willy418]

Seriously Smitty?! Give Crutcher some time. Did you really think my beloved Flyers were going to win this game?

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Willy418 Seriously Smitty?! Give Crutcher some time. Did you really think my beloved Flyers were going to win this game?

Excuse me? That's ZERO assists out of our PGs in 40 minutes. I'm not saying Crutcher isn't going to improve, but a PGs first job is Quarterbacking the offense and we have a Freshman getting 80 percent of the minutes getting no assists and a junior getting the other 20 percent also with no assists. This is a symptom of a very big problem that isn't going to fix itself very soon.

Figgie??? Can you look into your magic 8 ball or whatever you use and give me a comparison of this kind of stat from anytime in the past?

[C-time]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Excuse me? That's ZERO assists out of our PGs in 40 minutes. I'm not saying Crutcher isn't going to improve, but a PGs first job is Quarterbacking the offense and we have a Freshman getting 80 percent of the minutes getting no assists and a junior getting the other 20 percent also with no assists. This is a symptom of a very big problem that isn't going to fix itself very soon.

Could the problem possibly lie not with the point guards, but instead with the offense they are being tasked to run?

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by C-time Could the problem possibly lie not with the point guards, but instead with the offense they are being tasked to run?

Absolutely, but that still translates to a point guard problem. If you're right it's AG creating the point guard problem.

[Figgie123]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Figgie??? Can you look into your magic 8 ball or whatever you use and give me a comparison of this kind of stat from anytime in the past?

Assuming your standard point guards, but including some #2 who played point (Brian Roberts), 0 assists over 40 minutes I cannot find.

I have a number of games of 1 assists though, last time was against GW (2/6/15) and Scoochie only had 1 assists.

As for 0 assists, 7 turnovers, I have 1 ast/4 tos, most recently against Rhode Island, 2/12/2016. I have 2 ast/8 tos 1/24/07 against Duquesne.

Point guards assumed: (in no good order)

• Scoochie Smith
• London Warren
• John Crosby
• Jalen Crutcher
• Kevin Dillard
• Warren Williams
• Steven Thomas
• Brian Roberts
• Mark Jones
• Trent Meachem
• Khari Price
• Juwan Staten
• Josh Parker
• Ramod Marshall
• David Morris
• Rob Lowery

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

	Duquesne DUQUESNE Duquesne University is a private, coeducational university, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania located on 48 secluded acres, on a bluff above downtown. Founded in 1878 as a Catholic college by the Order of the Holy Spirit. It is the only Spiritan institution of higher education in the world. Duquesne offers 10 schools of study and 100 degree programs to 6,000 undergraduates and 3,800 graduate students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Dukes.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Figgie123 Assuming your standard point guards, but including some #2 who played point (Brian Roberts), 0 assists over 40 minutes I cannot find. I have a number of games of 1 assists though, last time was against GW (2/6/15) and Scoochie only had 1 assists. As for 0 assists, 7 turnovers, I have 1 ast/4 tos, most recently against Rhode Island, 2/12/2016. I have 2 ast/8 tos 1/24/07 against Duquesne. Point guards assumed: (in no good order) Scoochie Smith London Warren John Crosby Jalen Crutcher Kevin Dillard Warren Williams Steven Thomas Brian Roberts Mark Jones Trent Meachem Khari Price Juwan Staten Josh Parker Ramod Marshall David Morris Rob Lowery

Thanks Figgie. LOL, that was a very bad day for Scooch if I remember correctly. Wasn't that the game where he just stood there like a deer in the headlights and watched the put back after a Pierre blocked shot to lose a one point game?

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

	Duquesne DUQUESNE Duquesne University is a private, coeducational university, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania located on 48 secluded acres, on a bluff above downtown. Founded in 1878 as a Catholic college by the Order of the Holy Spirit. It is the only Spiritan institution of higher education in the world. Duquesne offers 10 schools of study and 100 degree programs to 6,000 undergraduates and 3,800 graduate students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Dukes.

[Figgie123]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Thanks Figgie. LOL, that was a very bad day for Scooch if I remember correctly. Wasn't that the game where he just stood there like a deer in the headlights and watched the put back after a Pierre blocked shot to lose a one point game?

Play-by-play agrees.

MISSED JUMPER by SAVAGE, Kethan                 00:01              BLOCK by PIERRE, Dyshawn
REBOUND (OFF) by McDONALD, Joe                  00:01
GOOD! TIP-IN by McDONALD, Joe [PNT]             00:01  65-64  H 1

[FLYER5]

You go, Sherlock

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by FLYER5 You go, Sherlock

Wanna take a crack at when the Flyers PG play in one game looked so atrocious? I'm guessing this might be historic.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Wanna take a crack at when the Flyers PG play in one game looked so atrocious? I'm guessing this might be historic.

When is the last time you got 18 points out of a PG not named Smith. Who in the hell do you want him to get involved in the offense? DDavis and Cunningham who were the other leading scorers? Trey? Kostas? The 3 for 13 out of the other or the 5 for 12 from your 2 guard? Assist come when everyone sans your top 3 scorers fo 8 for 25.

Jesus...yes...no assists isn't a good thing...you had a whopping 8 assists across the board. Atrocious? Hardly.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by shocka43 When is the last time you got 18 points out of a PG not named Smith. Who in the hell do you want him to get involved in the offense? DDavis and Cunningham who were the other leading scorers? Trey? Kostas? The 3 for 13 out of the other or the 5 for 12 from your 2 guard? Assist come when everyone sans your top 3 scorers fo 8 for 25. Jesus...yes...no assists isn't a good thing...you had a whopping 8 assists across the board. Atrocious? Hardly.

WTF shocka? Is this or is this not a historic stat for the program? And is it not a symptom of our biggest issues on offense. That's all I'm saying. It's called a stat, a very shocking one. Learn to accept it. The PGs first job is to QB the offense. That's obviously not the role our PGs are taking. That's a problem whether you want to admit it or not.

Oh, and in answer to your irrelevant question, I'm going to guess it was by a PG named Dillard. But in all cases I'll bet you that both Smith and Dillard had assists during those game and not 5 flippin turnovers.

[FLYER5]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Wanna take a crack at when the Flyers PG play in one game looked so atrocious? I'm guessing this might be historic.

No one knew Crosby would tank three years ago. The experience of the supporting cast definitely makes the position a more glaring weakness.

[ud69]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Tonight, Crutcher 33 minutes ZERO assists and 5 turnovers, Crosby 7 minutes ZERO assists and 2 turnovers. For those that don't want to take the time to do the math, that's ZERO assists and 7 turnovers from our PGs. I don't care about the comeback, the lack of PGs creating plays is going to make this a long, ugly season.

Smitty- I have to absolutely and totally and completely disagree. This is the first game where Crutcher had more turnovers than assists. For the season he has 19 assists and 11 turnovers - those numbers are still pretty good even with tonight's bad ratio. I think you are way off base.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by ud69 Smitty- I have to absolutely and totally and completely disagree. This is the first game where Crutcher had more turnovers than assists. For the season he has 19 assists and 11 turnovers - those numbers are still pretty good even with tonight's bad ratio. I think you are way off base.

Off base how? Because it's basic basketball logic that if your PGs aren't getting others involved in the offense and turning the ball over, you've got issues. I realize we're not going to have zero/7 probably ever again, but it's a symptom of what's wrong with this offense AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE for awhile. I'm not blaming Crutcher, I believe freshman have a lot of slack, but it's still a current, big problem.

[ud69]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Off base how? Because it's basic basketball logic that if your PGs aren't getting others involved in the offense and turning the ball over, you've got issues. I realize we're not going to have zero/7 probably ever again, but it's a symptom of what's wrong with this offense AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE for awhile. I'm not blaming Crutcher, I believe freshman have a lot of slack, but it's still a current, big problem.

How you ask? Critcher's current assist/to ratio is 1.73. Scooch, as a frosh, was 1.78. Was tonight a bad ratio for Crutcher? Absolutely. Do you throw away Crutcher's 8 assists and no turnovers against Akron? Scooch also had a much better supporting cast as a freshman and was not asked to play near as many minutes as what we are asking of Crutcher.

Scooch, for his career, had an assist/to ratio of 2.0. I will bet that by the end of the year Crutcher may well do better than 2.0 as a freshman.

Figgie - when was the last time a Flyer had at least 8 assists with no turnovers?

[TXFlyerFan]

What Smitty says is true, but for today's game only. It was bad, but assists are not just on the PG. It takes two to tango. Crutcher will have ups and downs, he's a Freshman. Crosby is Crosby. There's always hope for improvement. Look at DD this year. Will just have to wait and watch.

[shocka43]

Smitty...

You are looking into this way to short sighted.

As mentioned above...the A/T ratio is okay for the year given the circumstances.

You also have to take into consideration the lack of shooting by the guys he distributed the ball to. I am with you on the ineffectiveness of the offense as today, the defense created transition to get them back into the game. But I sure as hell am not going to pile it on a freshman PG who played his ass off as stating that he is responsible for some "historic stat" deficiency that you focus on.

And you SHOULD care about the comeback because you can't teach heart and effort. Something that these guys dug down and found defensively to get back into the game. I will take a loss with plenty of blame to go around and stomach it, when I see three freshman on the court with a senior an an 11 game player from last year busting their asses.

Yes...a defeat snatched from the jaws of victory with the miffed last possession...but this game was bigger than the lack of assists from PGs'.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by shocka43 Smitty... You are looking into this way to short sighted. As mentioned above...the A/T ratio is okay for the year given the circumstances. You also have to take into consideration the lack of shooting by the guys he distributed the ball to. I am with you on the ineffectiveness of the offense as today, the defense created transition to get them back into the game. But I sure as hell am not going to pile it on a freshman PG who played his ass off as stating that he is responsible for some "historic stat" deficiency that you focus on. And you SHOULD care about the comeback because you can't teach heart and effort. Something that these guys dug down and found defensively to get back into the game. I will take a loss with plenty of blame to go around and stomach it, when I see three freshman on the court with a senior an an 11 game player from last year busting their asses. Yes...a defeat snatched from the jaws of victory with the miffed last possession...but this game was bigger than the lack of assists from PGs'.

I somewhat agree with you up to today, and am not piling on Crutcher as 7 of those minutes were played by Crosby and his numbers are much worse when stretched out. But my concern is that this offense is getting more stagnant every game. I find this very concerning and I think we can all agree it's because we're not getting off enough good shots. PG play is where you start but not end. Players tossing up floaters instead of taking it strong to the hoop, players shooting 3s early in the shot clock, and players forcing the issue inside when it's not there. But I have to look at PG play first because without your PGs finding even one easy pass in 40 minutes to me means they've lost sight of their role for at least these 40 minutes on this day. This looks like a situation going down hill to me. The come back shows some heart, but I'm seeing more and more leaks popping up with this team each game.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 I somewhat agree with you up to today, and am not piling on Crutcher as 7 of those minutes were played by Crosby and his numbers are much worse when stretched out. But my concern is that this offense is getting more stagnant every game. I find this very concerning and I think we can all agree it's because we're not getting off enough good shots. PG play is where you start but not end. Players tossing up floaters instead of taking it strong to the hoop, players shooting 3s early in the shot clock, and players forcing the issue inside when it's not there. But I have to look at PG play first because without your PGs finding even one easy pass in 40 minutes to me means they've lost sight of their role for at least these 40 minutes on this day. This looks like a situation going down hill to me. The come back shows some heart, but I'm seeing more and more leaks popping up with this team each game.

I can't put it on a PG when I don't buy into the actual system presented.

This system needs efficient scorers. Scorers on ball and the assist stem from P&R and slips. Most of the assists have been in transition. One major criticism of AG's system is needing a PG to effectively run it. Well...we have an 18 year old in his 7th game...and the other option who is relegated to the bench.

I think you will find he will be one of the better PG's we have seen in some time. The "but" of this all is the fact he is a freshman and will still play like a freshman. This isn't UK, Duke, or UNC...our players aren't going to be perfect or world beaters from day one. Hell, Kostas comes out and people think he is the next coming of Hey-Sus and he is been a spectator for much of the last two games.

[bcross]

Crutcher had 19 assists to only 6 turnovers coming into game. His struggles had been with his shooting and he just had his best game of his young career in that area. Still going to take time to put it all together, but I saw more positives overall tonight in his development.

[Chris R]

In other words, our PGs had 7 TOs, and their teammates around them had the other NINETEEN.

If Crutcher tosses an open guy the ball for a shot they could or should make, and they either miss the shot (happened a lot tonight) or have it stolen from them, the point guard is losing out on an opportunity to earn relatively easy assist.

Case in point: the steal and outlet pass to Darrell mid-way second half. Great pass, split defenders, Darrell ahead of the last defender and going for a layup or dunk. MSU defender recovers and deflects it off Darrell. Turnover Dayton on what should have been a gravy assist.

We had way too many turnovers tonight. Nobody is suggesting otherwise. So did Miss State. Kostas played 11 minutes, had 5 TOs and 4 fouls (and fouls can be quasi turnovers depending on when and where they occur). All those balls into Kostas that he butterfingered -- stronger hands may have resulted in easy lay-ins for more gravy assists.

If we want to burn the house down tonight and have a pity party, Crutcher is probably not the place to start. Without him, we're not even in it late. Sure, compared to Scoochie perhaps we'd have been up 12 pts. But nobody had to guard Scoochie tonight.

Crutcher is also passing to other true frosh: Svoboda missed at least 2 wide open treys that I remember. Jordan Davis missed a couple wide open ones. Kostas fumbled everything he touched to prevent any guards from earning assists.

Had the other guys not turned it over too and made more makeable shots, Crutcher probably ends up with 4-5 assists to go with those 7 TOs.

Stats are an interesting thing, but they cannot explain what the eyes tell you. Ill give you one stat that we KNOW would have made a difference -- especially late: making FTs. Crutcher was the only guy tonight to make all of his.

When you play four frosh heavy starter minutes (Crutcher, Svoboda, J. Davis, Kostas) you are gonna get exactly what fans witnessed tonight from time to time.

Every time I saw the SEC Network show the graphic about Miss State being ranked like #330 in experience, I wonder if they knew Dayton was ranked even worse. We have like the 7th fewest returning minutes on the court from last season.

Expect more games like this. And then nights when we look like we're cooking with gas.

One final note: tonight was the first time I thought our helter skelter defense posed significant problems for the opposition. We did well to trap in corners and cause TOs. My initial thought was "wow this is like Tark's amoeba D". Then about 60 seconds later I said, "wait...Ive seen this before...it looks like the defense Grant employed when he was at VCU." And it did.

Unfortunately right now Grant is doing it without Eric Maynor and Larry Sanders. But I did start to see some small flashes of the disruption. Full disclosure -- MSU was not good at countering it several times and missed chances to score against it. But I think its undeniable its the first time all season our defense was effective and disruptive for an extended period in the game -- no matter how it came about.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by Chris R We have like the 7th fewest returning minutes on the court from last season.

I think it is 3rd fewest...

[BeckysTXA]

I agree with everything Chris said above. I thought our defense started showing some backbone. I thought we missed too many FT and open shots. I thought we have to get better at ball-control in the paint, which encompasses several different problems. I thought we rebounded well except when we put up a three. It's a difficult offensive rebounding shot, but too many times we had no one in sight when we put up a three. I thought the assist problem wasn't an assist opportunity problem ( i.e. the PG) but a shooter not completing the opportunity problem. And I too noticed the lack of mentioning UDs returning minutes which has been written in every game preview released by UD this year. It's not like it was hard to find if you did your job in preparing for the broadcast.

[Flyer68]

We knew last year that, after the graduations, we would have a point guard problem this year. Crosby did not show a lot last year to make us confident this year. Works in progress.

[Alberto Strasse]

Oil in this case is a pass first point guard. Their are no Westbrook's on this team. I would start a walk-on ahead of either Crosby or Crutchins to show how to dribble penetrate and pass to the bigs. They better figure it out soon or more losses will come.

[Alberto Strasse]

Originally Posted by Alberto Strasse Oil in this case is a pass first point guard. Their are no Westbrook's on this team. I would start a walk-on ahead of either Crosby or Crutchins to show how to dribble penetrate and pass to the bigs. They better figure it out soon or more losses will come.

for figuring it out. What a great game he had against Georgia State. He's the Oilman.

[Flyers98]

I must have missed the “Folks our point guard problems are solved” thread after Crutcher had 8 assists and no TOs a couple games ago. It is one game. Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems based on one game.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by Flyers98 I must have missed the “Folks our point guard problems are solved” thread after Crutcher had 8 assists and no TOs a couple games ago. It is one game. Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems based on one game.

Agree 100%. Most here are forgetting his 18 point output. This is all growing pains imo. Had the Flyers pulled off the amazing comeback to a win, most of the discussion now wouldn’t even touch the TO/A ratio
Posted via Mobile Device

[jack72]

When was the last time a frosh point guard had 18 or more points? This kid will be very, very good. Not his fault the person catching his pass misses the shot or commits a turnover. One of the announcers on a game last week was praising his play by play guy for having 12 assists some game. The guys response, "My guys were shooting really well that night, it was only half me."

[MNFats]

I have not been impressed with the PG play. They aren't really creating for anyone.

However, as mentioned above, they are the only reason for the turnover issues. For me, the absence of X is the biggest factor there.

- At this point last year, even with all the seniors, we were averaging 12 TO's a game.
- With X in the lineup, we are averaging 10 this year
- Without X in the lineup we are averaging 19 TO's
- Even after missing the last few games X is still only 3 off the leader in assists and has by far our best assist-to-turnover ratio.

He wasn't shooting well, but the offense is lost without him.

[TheDuke2003]

Originally Posted by MNFats I have not been impressed with the PG play. They aren't really creating for anyone. However, as mentioned above, they are the only reason for the turnover issues. For me, the absence of X is the biggest factor there. - At this point last year, even with all the seniors, we were averaging 12 TO's a game. - With X in the lineup, we are averaging 10 this year - Without X in the lineup we are averaging 19 TO's - Even after missing the last few games X is still only 3 off the leader in assists and has by far our best assist-to-turnover ratio. He wasn't shooting well, but the offense is lost without him.

It's hard to create offense when your team mates are running around the perimeter most of the time. It's like we're allergic to the post.

[MNFats]

Originally Posted by TheDuke2003 It's hard to create offense when your team mates are running around the perimeter most of the time. It's like we're allergic to the post.

That is absolutely a factor. I'm not trying to put all the blame on the PGs.

I know as Flyer fans we are all supposed to just think everything is great all the time and we have the 10 best players in the country. But when I watch the games, I am not overly impressed with the PG play. Even if we clean up the other issues (and there are plenty of them) the PGs will hold us back this year. Crutcher can develop into a good PG for us, but that is not a short term thing. He isn't the "now" solution. He is out there out of necessity. That will help speed up his development, which will help.

[UD62]

Originally Posted by MNFats That is absolutely a factor. I'm not trying to put all the blame on the PGs. I know as Flyer fans we are all supposed to just think everything is great all the time and we have the 10 best players in the country. But when I watch the games, I am not overly impressed with the PG play. Even if we clean up the other issues (and there are plenty of them) the PGs will hold us back this year. Crutcher can develop into a good PG for us, but that is not a short term thing. He isn't the "now" solution. He is out there out of necessity. That will help speed up his development, which will help.

I believe there is no "now" solution. We knew that coming into the season. All the frosh are on a rather steep learning curve, but as you say it will speed up their development.

[jack72]

Another highly regarded frosh PG: 221 min 29 assists 19 TO
Crutcher 193 min 19 assists 11 TO

Not much difference there!

The other point guard is McKinley Wright.

[MNFats]

Originally Posted by jack72 Another highly regarded frosh PG: 221 min 29 assists 19 TO Crutcher 193 min 19 assists 11 TO Not much difference there! The other point guard is McKinley Wright.

-You forgot to mention that MW is also averaging 5 rebounds (Crutcher = 3.6)
-MW is shooting 53% from the field and 43.5% from 3. Crutcher is 33% and 27% from deep.
- MW is averaging 16 points per game vs Crutcher at 7.

But let's not let facts get in the way...

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Off base how? Because it's basic basketball logic that if your PGs aren't getting others involved in the offense and turning the ball over, you've got issues.

Off base because you're extrapolating a bad night into a season-long problem.

It MAY BE a season long problem. It was a single game last night. Overall Crutcher's numbers have not been terrible.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Gazoo Off base because you're extrapolating a bad night into a season-long problem. It MAY BE a season long problem. It was a single game last night. Overall Crutcher's numbers have not been terrible.

You're absolutely right, I am projecting. And I'm projecting because as I said in an earlier thread, this team is on a downward spiral offensively, they seem to be springing more leaks each game. Hey, they might put on the brakes of this downward spiral and start an upswing, if having to bet however, I would bet that it gets worse not better.

And Crutcher's overall numbers have been pretty good. I said we've got a point guard problem and I honestly meant that in general, not the point guards themselves. The problem might be Anthony Grant's offense, but it translates to a Point Guard problem. I guess what I mean by that is that you can look at what the point guards are doing and not doing out there and figure out that we have a problem whether that means the point guard's actually not getting the ball to the open man or there not being an open man or the open man not handling and finishing what the point guard is giving them. While maybe I should've been clearer about that, I meant no disrespect to either of PGs with that statement, especially the freshman.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 You're absolutely right, I am projecting. And I'm projecting because as I said in an earlier thread, this team is on a downward spiral offensively, they seem to be springing more leaks each game.

Maybe because we're rebuilding.

[CvilleFlyer]

Originally Posted by MNFats -You forgot to mention that MW is also averaging 5 rebounds (Crutcher = 3.6) -MW is shooting 53% from the field and 43.5% from 3. Crutcher is 33% and 27% from deep. - MW is averaging 16 points per game vs Crutcher at 7. But let's not let facts get in the way...

MNFats, I like McKinley Wright as a player just as much as you do. I was ecstatic when I thought he was coming here. However, we have to play the cards that have been dealt!

I may be wrong but I don't think that jack72 was trying to say that Jalen was just as good as McKinley by making the comparison of minutes, assists and turnovers. Wright was given the keys from the very first game and his Colorado team had their first 6 games at home and were 6-0 against teams with a combined record of 24-24. They lost their only road game this past weekend to Colorado St. and are now 6-1. Colorado plays X at the Cintas Center this Sat. I am anxious to see the results of that game. Besides Wright, they start 3 seniors and a junior transfer from Missouri who averaged 9.6 pts and 5.2 reb for the Tigers. Wright is averaging 31.5 minutes to Crutchers 27.6 minutes (34 and 33 in the past 2 games has pushed that average way up!) Of Jalen's 19 assists, 13 have been in the 3 wins and 6 in the losses. Of his 11 turnovers, 8 have been in the 4 losses and 3 in the wins.

Turnovers are hurting the Flyers more than anything especially the 19 and 26 in the most recent two losses in a row to Auburn and Miss. St. In the first 5 games it was acceptable: 11, 8, 12, 9, and 14. The 19 and 26 are not acceptable! Every turnover could be looked at as a 4 point swing! If I was AG I would set the goal at 10 or below and run their arse off for anything above. Right now, it seems that bad passes and dribbling into traffic has become the norm and it has to stop or the Flyers are in for a long season!

Some things a player cannot control but turnovers and free throws are two that they can! They must improve in both areas.

I think all the freshman are on a big learning curve and we should see improvement with each and every game but we are spoiled because of the past four years and want to see immediate results. Well, it just isn't going to happen overnight! I think Jalen Crutcher will be fine and we will at least be competitive by the time the A-10 conference games start.

[Flyers98]

Originally Posted by MNFats -You forgot to mention that MW is also averaging 5 rebounds (Crutcher = 3.6) -MW is shooting 53% from the field and 43.5% from 3. Crutcher is 33% and 27% from deep. - MW is averaging 16 points per game vs Crutcher at 7. But let's not let facts get in the way...

I think Wright is a better player (at least right now) than Crutcher. I think that is what you wanted to hear. Can we move that discussion back to the thread you started to pay homage to the kid that chose not to play for Dayton?

[jack72]

Originally Posted by MNFats -You forgot to mention that MW is also averaging 5 rebounds (Crutcher = 3.6) -MW is shooting 53% from the field and 43.5% from 3. Crutcher is 33% and 27% from deep. - MW is averaging 16 points per game vs Crutcher at 7. But let's not let facts get in the way...

This thread was not about rebounds and scoring!

[MNFats]

Originally Posted by jack72 This thread was not about rebounds and scoring!

The title of the thread is "Folks, we have a point guard problem". The thread is about PGs - and you brought in a comparison to another PG. I just finished the comparison.

I just want to note for the record that someone else brought the other PG into this. Just want to make that clear before I'm accused of being his uncle or his dentist.

[priceg75]

Originally Posted by MNFats The title of the thread is "Folks, we have a point guard problem". The thread is about PGs - and you brought in a comparison to another PG. I just finished the comparison. I just want to note for the record that someone else brought the other PG into this. Just want to make that clear before I'm accused of being his uncle or his dentist.

You also wanted to make a lot of other things clear about him, didn't you.

Thanks, buddy. We got it. Really, we do. No clarifications or comparisons needed for the next four years.

It's like if somebody even thinks "point guard", a Minnesota-shaped beacon goes off and you feel the need to weigh in.

Again, WE GOT IT.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by MNFats The title of the thread is "Folks, we have a point guard problem". The thread is about PGs - and you brought in a comparison to another PG. I just finished the comparison. I just want to note for the record that someone else brought the other PG into this. Just want to make that clear before I'm accused of being his uncle or his dentist.

It was me that thought that and I was clearly wrong. It's abundantly obvious now that you are either his mom or girlfriend.
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[Sea Bass]

Without Josh there is no post.

John Crosby looked like last year.

[AC91]

well..these last 2 games were the first ones i'vebeen able to sit and watch. stating the obvious, we have not been a very good team. I don't think it's fair to put so much on a fresman PG on a team that has turned it over so much. for the Auburn game and the first 25 minutes of the MSU game, i think you have to put a decent mount of the onus on Josh. he was a turnover machine for a game and a half. don't think it was an accident we started coming back when he started scoring rather than trning it over. And given his competetiveness i'm sure he is being double hard on himself. Also, as impressed in a lot of ways that DD is, i was uncomfortable with him at the top of the key with the ball at the end of the game. I just don't think he has the handle to manage that on a consistent basis. this may go gainst the grain for that end of game situation but i wouldn't have minded seeing the ball move around to get MSU moving. DD got himself in a tough spot and got burned. Anyway on a team like this, you have to look to the upperclassmen. DD has done well, albeit not flawlessly, and Josh needs to play more consistently. getting X back should be a big help. I'm not saying we are going to be world beaters, but i see a team very capable of improving a lot as the season progresses (and we saw glimpses in the 2nd half last night for sure), and we will be very happy on a several nights...and probably have to go through a few more frustrating nights to get there. another thing I do like is that the team does not have quit. gept working against Auburn and last night waas almost a miracle.

i hope this makes sense. it's incomplete but it is my first impression so take it for what it is. tough to go through, but i'm not giving anything up yet.

ps...i hope i never have to be subjected to that SEC announcing team again. horrible.

[Flyer14]

My mantra has become, "New coach, new system, new players". Everybody needs to slow down and chill out. The sky is not falling, we are 1 game below 500. Relax and take a deep breath.

[TA111]

Originally Posted by Flyer14 My mantra has become, "New coach, new system, new players". Everybody needs to slow down and chill out. The sky is not falling, we are 1 game below 500. Relax and take a deep breath.

Agreed. Some of the posters here, and there are only a couple, remind me of 2014 when we lost 4 straight in conference and we're calling AM the worst coach ever and asking for his head. How soon they forget.

[ruechalgrin]

Some kenpom facts. And yes acknowledge 7 games is a small sample size. But Crutcher is off to a promising start (even though I personally would like him to stop shooting the floater and stop gunning 3s from 25 feet). Crutcher is ahead of Scoochie at this point during their Freshman years. Crutches is ahead of Crosby's best year. Crutcher is behind McKinley Wright (but right now McKinley Wright as a Freshman is ahead of Scoochie's senior year, again acknowledging small sample size).

BTW, the 103 Crutcher offensive rating versus Miss St. is objectively a good Freshman PG game. Yes 5 TOs and 0 assists, but offset by 2 steals, 3 rebounds, 18 points on 2/3 from 2, 4/8 from 3, and 2/2 FT.

Crutcher has an offensive rating of 94.2 through 7 games with the last three games being 124 Arkron, 117 Auburn, and 103 Miss St. (brought down by TOs and lack of assists, but still a good rating).

Scoochie had an offensive rating of 85.1 through 7 games his freshman year (after taking out IPFW and St. Francis PA as did not have offensive rating for IPFW and had a zero for St. Francis so this 85.1 is generous to Scoochie). Also for the year, Scoochie had a 89.5 offensive rating. Last 7 games of the year he had a 85.9 (admittedly versus better competition and not including St. Joe's A-10 where he did not have an offensive rating).

McKinley Wright has a 115.1 through 7 games (Scoochie's best year was senior year at 113.4, junior year at 110.1, sophomore at 102.7, and again freshman at 89.5).

Crosby this year is at 88.1 offensive rating trending down, sophomore year at 75.7 and freshman year at 76.5.

*Offensive rating is the personal version of team offensive efficiency and looks at every offensive factor. Detailed explanation at https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by ruechalgrin Some kenpom facts. And yes acknowledge 7 games is a small sample size. But Crutcher is off to a promising start (even though I personally would like him to stop shooting the floater and stop gunning 3s from 25 feet). Crutcher is ahead of Scoochie at this point during their Freshman years. Crutches is ahead of Crosby's best year. Crutcher is behind McKinley Wright (but right now McKinley Wright as a Freshman is head of Scoochie's senior year, again acknowledging small sample size). BTW, the 103 Crutcher offensive rating versus Miss St. is objectively a good Freshman PG game. Yes 5 TOs and 0 assists, but offset by 2 steals, 3 rebounds, 18 points on 2/3 from 2, 4/8 from 3, and 2/2 FT. Crutcher has an offensive rating of 94.2 through 7 games with the last three games being 124 Arkron, 117 Auburn, and 103 Miss St. (brought down by TOs and lack of assists, but still a good rating). Scoochie had an offensive rating of 85.1 through 7 games his freshman year (after taking out IPFW and St. Francis PA as did not have offensive rating for IPFW and had a zero for St. Francis so this 85.1 is generous to Scoochie). Also for the year, Scoochie had a 89.5 offensive rating. Last 7 games of the year he had a 85.9 (admittedly versus better competition and not including St. Joe's A-10 where he did not have an offensive rating). McKinley Wright has a 115.1 through 7 games (Scoochie's best year was senior year at 113.4, junior year at 110.1, sophomore at 102.7, and again freshman at 89.5). Crosby this year is at 88.1 offensive rating trending down, sophomore year at 75.7 and freshman year at 76.5. *Offensive rating is the personal version of team offensive efficiency and looks at every offensive factor. Detailed explanation at https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html

Good info Rue. But wouldn't you expect that more playing time would make that number rise for a freshman? Meaning that Scooch couldn't earn it because he had a legit ball handling, game managing point guard ahead of him while Crutcher only has to beat out Crosby(who by the way, the numbers on him are very telling).

Scooch is also unique and that uniqueness makes him more valuable than his numbers indicate IMO. Scooch possessed the offensive skills to carry the team on his back at times, but choose very carefully when to use them and when to try and Quarterback the team and get them involved in the offense. He was very unselfish even though he possessed the skills to not always be so.

I just don't think we'll ever be able to paint a picture of how good Scoochie Smith was with stats other than wins and losses.

[ruechalgrin]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Good info Rue. But wouldn't you expect that more playing time would make that number rise for a freshman? Meaning that Scooch couldn't earn it because he had a legit ball handling, game managing point guard ahead of him while Crutcher only has to beat out Crosby(who by the way, the numbers on him are very telling). Scooch is also unique and that uniqueness makes him more valuable than his numbers indicate IMO. Scooch possessed the offensive skills to carry the team on his back at times, but choose very carefully when to use them and when to try and Quarterback the team and get them involved in the offense. He was very unselfish even though he possessed the skills to not always be so. I just don't think we'll ever be able to paint a picture of how good Scoochie Smith was with stats other than wins and losses.

Scoochie averaged about 19 minutes a game in these 7 games and Crutcher has averaged 26 a game. Fair point, more minutes you would think equates to a better offensive rating because more experience, but I don't think the difference between the two, talking about Crutcher 49 minutes more than Scoochie through 7 games should impact it that much. I don't know how to think about better 2014 team. It would help with assists, TOs, and rebounds I think, but hurt with FGs and FTs attempted.

Anyway, Crutcher showing some good offensive signs the last three games.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by ruechalgrin Scoochie averaged about 19 minutes a game in these 7 games and Crutcher has averaged 26 a game. Fair point, more minutes you would think equates to a better offensive rating because more experience, but I don't think the difference between the two, talking about Crutcher 49 minutes more than Scoochie through 7 games should impact it that much. I don't know how to think about better 2014 team. It would help with assists, TOs, and rebounds I think, but hurt with FGs and FTs attempted. Anyway, Crutcher showing some good offensive signs the last three games.

Okay, but here's the thing, I watched first hand the way Scooch played in Maui and you can tell when he was inserted, his job was to eat up minutes without turning the ball over and losing ground while Price got a breather. Basically, they were just asking him to be careful with the ball as those games had huge implications and it was obvious that Arch (as he was known to do) put in his backups to just eat minutes, not light a fire, expand a lead or close a gap.

Due to the situation this year, it's apparent that Grant is not being so cautious with Crutcher. He's actually being sent in to create offense, not protect the ball and eat up minutes.

Doesn't that make a difference? Oh, and yes, I admit once again, Crutcher has impressed me overall.

[ruechalgrin]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Okay, but here's the thing, I watched first hand the way Scooch played in Maui and you can tell when he was inserted, his job was to eat up minutes without turning the ball over and losing ground while Price got a breather. Basically, they were just asking him to be careful with the ball as those games had huge implications and it was obvious that Arch (as he was known to do) put in his backups to just eat minutes, not light a fire, expand a lead or close a gap. Due to the situation this year, it's apparent that Grant is not being so cautious with Crutcher. He's actually being sent in to create offense, not protect the ball and eat up minutes. Doesn't that make a difference? Oh, and yes, I admit once again, Crutcher has impressed me overall.

Scoochie was taking shots on 16.0% of the possessions he was on the court for in 2014 and averaged about 4 shots a game (counting FTs as 1/2 shot); Crutcher is taking shots on 19.5% of the possessions he was on the court for thus far and averaged 7.9 shots per game (counting FTs as 1/2 shot -- again Crutcher averaging about 33% more playing time per game than Scoochie). Math might not tie out completely as this is back-of-the-napkin (didn't take into account # of possessions per game for 2014 team versus 2018, etc.).

[TA111]

I think people need to realize that it takes 2 to create an assist. There were several times when our PG made the correct pass only to have the receiver fumble it away or miss an open shot. Assists may be one of the most misleading stats out there from the standpoint that you may set up your teammates only to have them miss an open look. The best assist men have teammates who can make shots.

[Widget]

Go Flyers?
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[Ready Action]

And they say sports bring people together.

[CE80]

I read this thread and can't help picturing this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrF92qOw8OA

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by CE80 I read this thread and can't help picturing this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrF92qOw8OA

Gold.

[longtimefan67]

That show was hilarious
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[BeckysTXA]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 That show was hilarious Posted via Mobile Device

And at times so politically in-correct during an era we could all laugh at ourselves without getting panties in a wad (how the heck do you spell wad????) or taking a knee to protest.

[CE80]

In honor of Fred, I suggest you all enjoy a nice glass of gripple while watching the game tonight and when the Flyers win, toast it with a glass of champipple.

[cj]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fya3_aak94

Saw this on the youtube page and had to post it.

[jack72]

Not tonight!!

[jack72]

Crosby with no turnovers and 7 assists, 11 points and 3 rebounds. Nuff said

[TXFlyerFan]

Originally Posted by jack72 Crosby with no turnovers and 7 assists, 11 points and 3 rebounds. Nuff said

No no no, please. 1 game doesn't mean anything except that it's one game and I saw multiple occasions where he was out of control. Glad he played better tonight but I wouldn't read anything into one game.

[FLYER5]

Got bailed out a couple times and almost didn't see a wide-open Cunningham on his break for the dunk. Also 0-4 from the stripe so no not enough said. But I'll take it. He played well enough.

[runnerup]

So what happened to Kostas?

[SeasonTicketFan]

Originally Posted by runnerup So what happened to Kostas?

2 fouls in 2 minutes. Bad matchup.

[FLYER5]

Lol. How do you hit the backboard on a free throw without hitting the rim too. I didn't see him return after that. Well-deserved pine time.

[maddog07]

Crosby missed all his FT when it mattered., got bailed out on several times when he went full Crosby- into the lane, jumping up without a plan, and usually results in a fast break for the bad guys. Tonight he contributed to the futile lack of offense that almost cost us against a buy game team. I think at this point he's better than Crutcher, but that's like Al Franken being better than Harvey Weinstein.

[jack72]

Originally Posted by maddog07 Crosby missed all his FT when it mattered., got bailed out on several times when he went full Crosby- into the lane, jumping up without a plan, and usually results in a fast break for the bad guys. Tonight he contributed to the futile lack of offense that almost cost us against a buy game team. I think at this point he's better than Crutcher, but that's like Al Franken being better than Harvey Weinstein.

Thanks for the constuctive comments. I hope you can watch the game next time.

[FLYER5]

Well your assessment was one-sided too, to be fair. But his was funny

[jack72]

Originally Posted by FLYER5 Well your assessment was one-sided too, to be fair. But his was funny

Hey, I thought mine was too.

[flyerfanatic86]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 lol, I'd love to meet you face to face, pretty sure you wouldn't talk to me the way you do here. I'm pretty sure I'd have no problem talking to you the way I do here.

This is my favorite post because it is accompanied with a photo of a cartoon horse wearing a hat. The internet is amazing.