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  #101  
Old 03-25-2016, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
Since I'm not certain I'm not going to get into the specifics of what it may be. And, I really don't think it matters. If you think they were dissatisfied with three 20+ seasons and conference championship games in the last four years I won't argue with you. I suppose that could have been it.
FWIW, I heard a couple/few months ago that Donlon would be out at the end of the season if he did not win the HL tournament. I do not know if this was just a rumor, or if the WSU administration told that to Donlon, himself, or not. Seems unlikely that the administration would issue such a black and white ultimatum. But obviously, the source's sort of "prediction" ended up being correct.

I am guessing that Donlon might have been aware of the dire nature of his situation this season.

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  #102  
Old 03-25-2016, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
Yes, I would rather watch UD play OU in Athens on tv than watch UD play Saginaw Valley St U. at UD Arena.
We all would, but Saginaw is a buy game and OU would be a home and home. The better comparison is we would rather watch UD at OU, than be able to watch UD at Miami (if it were on the internet, but is often not).
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  #103  
Old 03-25-2016, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
Yes, I would rather watch UD play OU in Athens on tv than watch UD play Saginaw Valley St U. at UD Arena.
SVSU is DII they would be exhibition only.
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  #104  
Old 03-25-2016, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
SVSU is DII they would be exhibition only.
Amazing that some don't know that.
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  #105  
Old 03-26-2016, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
We all would, but Saginaw is a buy game and OU would be a home and home. The better comparison is we would rather watch UD at OU, than be able to watch UD at Miami (if it were on the internet, but is often not).
That's a dead rivalry. We kept up our end, similarly to how X kept theirs against us. They couldn't elevate their program. No rivalry there.
I understand it's a buy game. That's part of my contention. Get rid of the laggard. It's not required. Our boosters ponied up for Archie, let's solidify our chances to the selection committee by making pitches to play better teams.
Playing those low-ranked teams hinders our chances at the at-large bid.
What's a few hundred grand when we could be making the statement that we want to play the best, the problem being they don't want to play us?
Let's make that more than a glorified rumor. I wonder how many buy games Monmouth plays in. Did UCLA pay them to play a one-way game?
I would like to see UD at least raise the lowest rung by eliminating games that have no fan appeal. Whereas an in-state home&home with OU is a mismatch in their favor, it could have a following. Maybe enough coercion to strike up a series with either of the other two top schools in Ohio. Maybe not. I would rather live next door to #thesettlers than be #thesettlers
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  #106  
Old 03-26-2016, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
SVSU is DII they would be exhibition only.
Great point! My apology, I meant to say the titanic program better known as SEMO!!
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  #107  
Old 03-26-2016, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
Amazing that some don't know that.
C'mon Beav!
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  #108  
Old 03-26-2016, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
We all would, but Saginaw is a buy game and OU would be a home and home. The better comparison is we would rather watch UD at OU, than be able to watch UD at Miami (if it were on the internet, but is often not).
Meant SEMO instead of SVSU, as you may've also. Same principle
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  #109  
Old 03-26-2016, 01:34 PM
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I would not play Miami either. UD vs Ohio is not going to be on TV other than Channel 7 or Time Warner Sports channel. It has too little interest.

I would much rather follow what brew suggests and play a one way road game at an NKU than a buy game. The home and homes are generally good enough to never schedule a MAC school.
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  #110  
Old 03-26-2016, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
Get rid of the laggard. It's not required. Our boosters ponied up for Archie, let's solidify our chances to the selection committee by making pitches to play better teams.
Playing those low-ranked teams hinders our chances at the at-large bid.
The four or so buy games a year have zero impact on whether UD gets a bid or not. The keys are what they do exempt tourney, in the home and homes and in conference. Toughening up and playing more home and homes will do nothing in terms of the chances of obtaining an at large bid.

Now, if they want to substitute a buy game and play one way at Kansas, North Carolina etc, or play neutral one way I am all for it. Or offer a home, neutral, away. Or like Louisville a few years back away and neutral. By the way, they do try to get those type series every single year. The reason they don't happen has zero to do with UD refusing or not offering.

But they don't need a tougher schedule for purposes of at large bids. The schedule has never kept UD from a bid.
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  #111  
Old 03-26-2016, 06:08 PM
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That makes better sense. Still, bettering the opponent in the OOC is going to potentially better the chances at an at-large bid, regardless of reciprocation, that's just common sense.. Plus the elimination of those games with zero fan appeal (SEMO) in favor of those with a draw is good for the game.
If, that's if you don't get a Kansas in a one-way. Which so far, I don't see movement on that front. And I've been watching for movement since the 60's. You seen any?
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  #112  
Old 03-26-2016, 09:35 PM
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Why not try for teams similar to Notre Dame home & home, or (go to) Michigan State? I'm sure there's many reasons for it to take a while to happen, but why not get a game with a top level team. If we want to get into the tournament, and get past the first weekend, why not go for some big games? In the past few years, we've gone to Alabama, now Vandy, why not go up another notch? Lets see where we stand.
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  #113  
Old 03-26-2016, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
Why not try for teams similar to Notre Dame home & home, or (go to) Michigan State? I'm sure there's many reasons for it to take a while to happen, but why not get a game with a top level team. If we want to get into the tournament, and get past the first weekend, why not go for some big games? In the past few years, we've gone to Alabama, now Vandy, why not go up another notch? Lets see where we stand.
Have been getting in the Tournament and have gotten past the first weekend. Don't see the relationship between playing ND or the Spartans, and advancing in the tournament. Not against playing either team, just believe our OOC RPI has been good to outstanding and while playing a national power would be nice , it isn't an absolute necessity.

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  #114  
Old 03-26-2016, 09:49 PM
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UD has played the RPI scheduling game very well the last couple of years. The problem is that the KenPom numbers have suffered. The committee has been showing a tendency to value KenPom numbers which has hurt UD. All of the close games have hurt UD in KenPom. Winning games is nice but if UD doesn't start blowing some of these teams out it may come back to bite the Flyers come Selection Sunday.
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  #115  
Old 03-26-2016, 09:57 PM
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Not a fan of KenPom, but that rating falls on the team and coaches, not the schedule. As you stated we have played the RPI game well. We had a lot of close games this year that affected the KP rating, just winning those games by 10-12 points would improve the rating. Not a fan at all of running up the score, but winning by a comfortable margin rather that a point or two would be nice.
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  #116  
Old 03-26-2016, 10:09 PM
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I'm not arguing that our OOC isn't strong. It is very strong. I would like to see a meaningful contest replace the normally bland first game, like the one this year with SEMO.
I used Ohio U as an example because it would be a rare meeting in itself and sure to draw viewers and media coverage.
Get rid of the game that has no fan appeal and replace it with one that does. Doesn't have to be the MAC or the Bobcats. Maybe I am wrong by saying the committee would look more favorably on UD for playing a top MAC school rather than SEMO. I would prefer at least something getting done in regard to that slot.
Get Kansas
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  #117  
Old 03-26-2016, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
Not a fan of KenPom, but that rating falls on the team and coaches, not the schedule. As you stated we have played the RPI game well. We had a lot of close games this year that affected the KP rating, just winning those games by 10-12 points would improve the rating. Not a fan at all of running up the score, but winning by a comfortable margin rather that a point or two would be nice.
I don't like KenPom either, but I'm afraid the committee is using it more often which worries me. Its going to become college football where you need to run up the score for the computers to make the tournament committee happy.
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  #118  
Old 03-27-2016, 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
The four or so buy games a year have zero impact on whether UD gets a bid or not. The keys are what they do exempt tourney, in the home and homes and in conference. Toughening up and playing more home and homes will do nothing in terms of the chances of obtaining an at large bid.

But they don't need a tougher schedule for purposes of at large bids. The schedule has never kept UD from a bid.
That is not a valid argument. UD could play the weakest schedule in the country and go 30-0 and make the NCAAT, and you could say that the schedule did not prevent UD from making the NCAAT.

The point is that by playing a tougher schedule, UD would have a better chance of making the NCAAT more consistently by having more opportunities for good wins.

As things stand now, if UD loses the first game of the exempt tournament, their SOS is significantly damaged, thereby forcing UD to win a higher percentage of the remaining games. There is significantly less margin for error as things stand now.

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  #119  
Old 03-27-2016, 01:35 PM
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Looking over the field in this year's Wooden Legacy, I have to believe the UD Athletic Dept. is pushing for a first round match-up against either Virginia Tech or Texas A&M. The rest of the field does not look so hot, especially compared to last year's Orlando tourney. I'm really hoping UCLA and New Mexico step up their play this next year, for UD's sake.
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  #120  
Old 03-27-2016, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
That is not a valid argument. UD could play the weakest schedule in the country and go 30-0 and make the NCAAT, and you could say that the schedule did not prevent UD from making the NCAAT.

The point is that by playing a tougher schedule, UD would have a better chance of making the NCAAT more consistently by having more opportunities for good wins.

As things stand now, if UD loses the first game of the exempt tournament, their SOS is significantly damaged, thereby forcing UD to win a higher percentage of the remaining games. There is significantly less margin for error as things stand now.
It takes two to tango.
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  #121  
Old 03-29-2016, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
It takes two to tango.
How comes Temple and Xavier, when they were in the A10, never had this problem? VCU now, at least some of the time, does not have this problem either.

Your argument just sounds like a lame excuse.

The bottom line is that UD can get another home and home series to get to a 15 home game/15 away game setup, but UD is unwilling to give up the extra home game revenue.

UD is willing to sacrifice having a better schedule in exchange for having more revenue.

And by extension, UD's sos and seed are likely never going to be consistently great because you really need a better sos in order to get a better seed. The only other path to getting a better seed is to have a fantastic record, which is very hard to do due to the inherent nature of conference play: you will almost always drop a game or two in conference, that you should win, to a lesser opponent. And the selection committee will hammer you for those 1 or 2 bad losses.
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  #122  
Old 03-29-2016, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
How comes Temple and Xavier, when they were in the A10, never had this problem? VCU now, at least some of the time, does not have this problem either.

Your argument just sounds like a lame excuse.

The bottom line is that UD can get another home and home series to get to a 15 home game/15 away game setup, but UD is unwilling to give up the extra home game revenue.

UD is willing to sacrifice having a better schedule in exchange for having more revenue.

And by extension, UD's sos and seed are likely never going to be consistently great because you really need a better sos in order to get a better seed. The only other path to getting a better seed is to have a fantastic record, which is very hard to do due to the inherent nature of conference play: you will almost always drop a game or two in conference, that you should win, to a lesser opponent. And the selection committee will hammer you for those 1 or 2 bad losses.
Are you really going to talk about this 15h 15a bs again? You are like Piqua and the Gem City Jam.
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  #123  
Old 03-29-2016, 11:28 AM
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I would submit that the 4-4 record to finish the pre Dance season had far more to do with seeding than our OOC schedule, that by any measure was outstanding this year. We were looking at a 5, maybe a 4 until our finish. for the umteenth time, the OCC is fine. Not against getting a home and home with a decent P-5 or top mid-major, but it is not critical to our success. Our chance at a top 2-3 seed are long. But given Archie's progress so far even that may be possible.
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  #124  
Old 03-29-2016, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
That is not a valid argument. UD could play the weakest schedule in the country and go 30-0 and make the NCAAT, and you could say that the schedule did not prevent UD from making the NCAAT.

The point is that by playing a tougher schedule, UD would have a better chance of making the NCAAT more consistently by having more opportunities for good wins.

As things stand now, if UD loses the first game of the exempt tournament, their SOS is significantly damaged, thereby forcing UD to win a higher percentage of the remaining games. There is significantly less margin for error as things stand now.
By end of season, our Non-con SOS was 12. (it was 4 when the non-con ended). I don't think you can "toughen up" the non-con any more and actually make a difference for the committee.
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  #125  
Old 03-29-2016, 12:38 PM
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We're not shackled to ball and chain games like SEMO. Don't believe it. So it's not killing our OOC, you cannot deny that it can be improved upon. I don't see that as being a big problem.
If we can get Kansas in a one-way game, who someone mentioned, that would be great.

It would be even better to schedule a blue-chip program later in the season, if possible (while we're wishing) so it's fresher in the memories of those who choose our fate.
I would love to see more marquee OOC matchups later in the season than just the pre-season tournament matchups.
It would be great exposure for UD to play a say, Wichita St around mid-season, still early in each team's conference schedule. That in my mind is not a far-fetched expectation. Any good reasons not to replace SEMO with Wichita State or a similar 2nd-tier program? Other than reverting back to defending the overall SoS and rpi?
I don't see the sense in buy games. Those are for teams that don't need exposure. Yo, Kansas.

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  #126  
Old 03-29-2016, 01:23 PM
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Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Pitt's coach say after they loss to UD they would not play at UD again? If the admin can not get the teams they want in a home and home why should UD sacrifice a home game for a home and home that does not add a lot to the direction for the team? We generally have a few Power 5 games each year. I do not know what else we can do if we cannot get anyone better than Vandy, Bama, or Arkansas to have a home and home. I don't know enough about who X or Temple scheduled, but there is a value to everything including home and home vs an away game. I trust the administration and athletic department to make the right decision for the program.
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Old 03-29-2016, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Fan4allUDSports View Post
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Pitt's coach say after they loss to UD they would not play at UD again? If the admin can not get the teams they want in a home and home why should UD sacrifice a home game for a home and home that does not add a lot to the direction for the team? We generally have a few Power 5 games each year. I do not know what else we can do if we cannot get anyone better than Vandy, Bama, or Arkansas to have a home and home. I don't know enough about who X or Temple scheduled, but there is a value to everything including home and home vs an away game. I trust the administration and athletic department to make the right decision for the program.
Their coach did say or imply that, so now it is time to call Pitt and the new coach.
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Old 03-29-2016, 01:57 PM
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Xavier nearly always had 4 or 5 no name buy games while in the A10. And Temple played lots of one way road games because they don't draw.

And Dayton's level of success compared to those two is virtually non-existent - a blip on the radar.
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Old 03-29-2016, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
We're not shackled to ball and chain games like SEMO . . . Any good reasons not to replace SEMO with Wichita State or a similar 2nd-tier program? . . .

SEMO is not our ball and chain - that would be Miami.
The Flyers will always schedule a cupcake for their home opener, as they should. SEMO filled that roll perfectly (IPFW, not so much).
A home and home with Wichita State would be excellent, but it would not be our home opener.


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  #130  
Old 03-30-2016, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Fan4allUDSports View Post
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Pitt's coach say after they loss to UD they would not play at UD again? If the admin can not get the teams they want in a home and home why should UD sacrifice a home game for a home and home that does not add a lot to the direction for the team? We generally have a few Power 5 games each year. I do not know what else we can do if we cannot get anyone better than Vandy, Bama, or Arkansas to have a home and home. I don't know enough about who X or Temple scheduled, but there is a value to everything including home and home vs an away game. I trust the administration and athletic department to make the right decision for the program.
Pitino said the same thing from a Louisville perspective. They are OK with these games only as long as they win them all.
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  #131  
Old 03-30-2016, 10:42 AM
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Until recently X played a similar batch of mid-tier P5 schools nonconference. A lot of Tennessee, Auburn, Alabama like games. I think they played one fewer home game than Dayton's current model which opened up a date.

They also have had a lot more success in the NCAA over the years
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Old 03-30-2016, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Glen Clark View Post
SEMO is not our ball and chain - that would be Miami.
The Flyers will always schedule a cupcake for their home opener, as they should. SEMO filled that roll perfectly (IPFW, not so much).
A home and home with Wichita State would be excellent, but it would not be our home opener.


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And the Committee would have to favor a team which doesn't schedule the cupcake for the opener when comparing to one that does. It's all about putting a nose in front at the finish, right? The eye-test. If UD wants to follow in similar footsteps to X and Butler they're going to have to shake things up. Does Gonzaga play a cupcake in their opener, I don't know, but they're where we want to go. Got to set yourself apart.
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Old 03-30-2016, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
And the Committee would have to favor a team which doesn't schedule the cupcake for the opener when comparing to one that does. It's all about putting a nose in front at the finish, right? The eye-test. If UD wants to follow in similar footsteps to X and Butler they're going to have to shake things up. Does Gonzaga play a cupcake in their opener, I don't know, but they're where we want to go. Got to set yourself apart.
I'll say one thing for you FLYER5, you are persistent
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  #134  
Old 03-30-2016, 03:34 PM
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Nonconference this year Xavier played Miami (Ohio), Northern Kentucky, Western Kentucky and Wright State. The P5 schools they played included Mizzou, Alabama, Wake and Auburn. Not exactly the top tier, but are always athletic enough to beat you. They also played at Michigan and the annual UC game. That nonconference schedule has been upgraded considerably - for instance as recently as 2012-13 it included Farleigh Dickinson, Robert Morris and Wofford. And as far back as 06-07 had Coastal Carolina, American, Miami (oh), Western Carolina, Detroit and Bucknell. The Farleigh Dickinson and Coastal Carolina's have been the traditional opener, this season it was Miami.

Butler opened this season with the Citadel. They also played Missouri State, SIU Edwardsville, VMI, Southern Utah and IUPUI. Last year they opened with Maine and played Chattanooga (not expected to improve as quickly as they did), Loyola Md, Indiana State, Kennesaw State and Tennessee Martin.

Gonzaga played Northern Arizona (opener), Mount Saint Mary's, Montana and Saint Martin(?) this year. Last year they opened with Sacramento State and had buy games with Southeastern Louisiana, St Thomas Aquinas, Texas Southern and Cal Poly. The year before that they opened with Bryant and played buy games against Oakland, Coppin State and South Alabama.

Should we keep going? You will be hard pressed to find someone who has good attendance that doesn't play 3 to 5 cupcakes in buy games.

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  #135  
Old 03-30-2016, 03:53 PM
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Some or all of those BE schools started downgrading their OOC schedules upon entering the BE.

UD may just need more time to establish itself as a perennial NCAAT participant before more good teams will agree to play them.

UD's SOS this year was an anomaly, UD had the 2nd best SOS this year since 1994. Normally, UD's sos is almost twice as high as it was this year. I think the historical average since 1994 is 89, this year it was 49.

I am not sure that I did the math right when calculating the historic average of 89, I will have to double check that.

But, I do think that UD got the message, about their SOS, loud and clear from the NCAA 2 years ago when UD was the last team in, as evidenced by the better buy games this year.


49
93
61
95
68
69
33
95
33
76
112
162
84
54
93
83
108
95
84
161
202
77
62

2049/23=89



Rpiforecast has the sos as 49 this year.

http://www.rpiforecast.com/teams/Dayton.html


Season Record RPI Rank SOS Rank

2014-2015 25-8 0.5920 32 0.5273 93
2013-2014 23-10 0.5837 43 0.5539 61
2012-2013 17-14 0.5287 114 0.5370 95
2011-2012 20-12 0.5546 81 0.5425 68
2010-2011 22-13 0.5608 70 0.5455 69
2009-2010 20-12 0.5769 54 0.5661 33
2008-2009 26-7 0.6037 27 0.5319 95
2007-2008 21-10 0.5906 32 0.5645 33
2006-2007 19-12 0.5573 75 0.5431 76
2005-2006 13-17 0.4835 183 0.5183 112
2004-2005 18-11 0.5205 126 0.4945 162
2003-2004 24-8 0.5864 40 0.5319 84
2002-2003 24-5 0.6212 13 0.5525 54
2001-2002 20-10 0.5599 62 0.5243 93
2000-2001 19-12 0.5538 72 0.5341 83
1999-2000 22-8 0.5736 43 0.5204 108
1998-1999 11-17 0.4933 157 0.5268 95
1997-1998 20-11 0.5594 59 0.5309 84
1996-1997 13-14 0.4863 172 0.4879 161
1995-1996 15-14 0.4833 177 0.4720 202
1994-1995 7-20 0.4635 194 0.5316 77
1993-1994 5-21 0.4581 208 0.5467 62

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  #136  
Old 03-30-2016, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Some or all of those BE schools started downgrading their OOC schedules upon entering the BE.
There were only two BE schools in the list. Xavier's nonconference schedule this year was probably harder than prior years, significantly more so than when they were in the A10.

But Butler's hasn't changed all that much. Their last year in the A10 they opened with Lamar and played buy games against Princeton (not bad but not the Princeton of old), Ball State, North Dakota, Manchester(?), Evansville and NJIT. The prior year in the A10 they opened with Elon, and played Hanover, Ball State, IUPUI, Evansville, Penn and New Orleans. So maybe they softened because of the move up to the bigger A10. Well their last year in the Horizon they opened with Evansville and played Chattanooga, Savannah State, Gardner Webb, Oakland City College(? - no, not Oakland U), and Ball State.

Personally, I don't think UD's schedule had anywhere near as much impact on whether they got a bid or not two seasons ago as did the losses to LaSalle and Duquesne at the end of the year. Two sub 200 losses in the last couple weeks does not look good. While most had UD solidly in, they had a number of bad losses. And the Ken Pom numbers haven't looked as good because they won a lot of close games.

The schedule has been good enough to get bids. If they want to remove one buy game for a home and home, I'd be for it. But it's not going to be a difference maker with the committee.
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  #137  
Old 03-30-2016, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
And the Committee would have to favor a team which doesn't schedule the cupcake for the opener when comparing to one that does. It's all about putting a nose in front at the finish, right? The eye-test. If UD wants to follow in similar footsteps to X and Butler they're going to have to shake things up. Does Gonzaga play a cupcake in their opener, I don't know, but they're where we want to go. Got to set yourself apart.
I doubt if the committee cares one bit about who any team plays in their opener. The vast majority of teams have several cupcakes on their schedule (see UDDoug above). I can't understand why you continue to complain about ONE game on the schedule. (You're beginning to sound like ud2 and his fixation on a 15/15 split on home and away games.)
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  #138  
Old 04-02-2016, 04:54 PM
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Ok, one vote for SEMO. longtimefan rings the bell for SEMO. Apologists always jump to the defense [conclusions]
Just eliminate SEMO?, theoretically make the second home game the opener, then play Wichita State or? when the schedule permits.
Tell me one more time about how 'established teams' schedule games.
X, Butler? They're where we want to go. Don't really understand why you don't think it wouldn't be impressive to the selection committee, and the viewing audience entirely, to just take the lower two home games and replace them with better contests. Let me be clear. Better opponents.
I think that Ohio U as the opener, in place of Miami [I know MAC] on the schedule gives the fans something a stale, worn out series with Miami no longer does. Or it may. Change things up if it doesn't.
Swap the SEMO slot this year for a Wichita State. That would improve the competition model in the eyes of everyone. Not only the ones choosing who gets selected but all basketball fans.
A cookie-cutter model for UD? Man, UD is too unique to apply the common model imo.. I say if UD wants to play with the big boys, in a better conference, then they're going to have to shake things up. Look at Monmouth's schedule. See that effort? It can be done. It doesn't have to be a radical schedule like theirs, but it can be done. [I'm glad their fans are content to watch them play away on tv]
All I'm saying is make the effort to shake things up. I feel the BE isn't as ready for our courtship as we are for theirs.
UD could use better exposure to the national audience. That is the premise of what I'm saying will better our stance. On every front. One thing those initial schools added to the BE had in common I think was they were all more national brands than UD.
I don't want to hear that everybody does it, in our case. Everybody schedules that way? Monmouth? I'd like to talk feasibly about what UD can do to better its stance to the fans, the prospective new conference.. ahem, and the powers that be in the NCAA. The selection committee. I mean why not?
But a solid rebuttal this time would be appreciated.
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Old 04-02-2016, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
Ok, one vote for SEMO. longtimefan rings the bell for SEMO. Apologists always jump to the defense [conclusions]
Just eliminate SEMO?, theoretically make the second home game the opener, then play Wichita State or? when the schedule permits.
Tell me one more time about how 'established teams' schedule games.
X, Butler? They're where we want to go. Don't really understand why you don't think it wouldn't be impressive to the selection committee, and the viewing audience entirely, to just take the lower two home games and replace them with better contests. Let me be clear. Better opponents.
I think that Ohio U as the opener, in place of Miami [I know MAC] on the schedule gives the fans something a stale, worn out series with Miami no longer does. Or it may. Change things up if it doesn't.
Swap the SEMO slot this year for a Wichita State. That would improve the competition model in the eyes of everyone. Not only the ones choosing who gets selected but all basketball fans.
A cookie-cutter model for UD? Man, UD is too unique to apply the common model imo.. I say if UD wants to play with the big boys, in a better conference, then they're going to have to shake things up. Look at Monmouth's schedule. See that effort? It can be done. It doesn't have to be a radical schedule like theirs, but it can be done. [I'm glad their fans are content to watch them play away on tv]
All I'm saying is make the effort to shake things up. I feel the BE isn't as ready for our courtship as we are for theirs.
UD could use better exposure to the national audience. That is the premise of what I'm saying will better our stance. On every front. One thing those initial schools added to the BE had in common I think was they were all more national brands than UD.
I don't want to hear that everybody does it, in our case. Everybody schedules that way? Monmouth? I'd like to talk feasibly about what UD can do to better its stance to the fans, the prospective new conference.. ahem, and the powers that be in the NCAA. The selection committee. I mean why not?
But a solid rebuttal this time would be appreciated.
Something about UD being the 24th most valuable program in the country does not scream "radically change what we're doing" and see if it works or not. You mention Monmouth--if we were Monmouth, yes.

If we KNOW something is smart to do, do it. Take a risk. But there's no reason to go too far away from what's working pretty darn well.
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Old 04-02-2016, 05:56 PM
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  #141  
Old 04-02-2016, 06:31 PM
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Don't think we have to "shake things up" at all, a h/h with a P5 or high mid-major, ok. Opening with atop team is silly, the way we are currently set up we have a couple buy games then it's off to a tourney that provides opportunities. Our OOC RPI was outstanding this year. If AM and Company keep doing what we are doing, it should be easier to get that h/h, but other than tinkering around the edges, what we are doing is successful. If the NBE doesn't like it, screw em.
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  #142  
Old 04-02-2016, 06:42 PM
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I never said through three times of repeating myself that UD should open with a top team. I'm just not got here. It's cool.
I didn't mean to imply that by my comment to switch Wichita State slots with SEMO. I meant what I said to theoretically make the 2nd home game the opener, then play a marquee team when schedule permits. Get rid of a home game in exchange for a top road opponent later on. Or whenever really.
Wright State still sux in this thread btw

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  #143  
Old 04-03-2016, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
I never said through three times of repeating myself that UD should open with a top team. I'm just not got here. It's cool.
I didn't mean to imply that by my comment to switch Wichita State slots with SEMO. I meant what I said to theoretically make the 2nd home game the opener, then play a marquee team when schedule permits. Get rid of a home game in exchange for a top road opponent later on. Or whenever really.
Wright State still sux in this thread btw
Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
Ok, one vote for SEMO. longtimefan rings the bell for SEMO. Apologists always jump to the defense [conclusions]
Just eliminate SEMO?, theoretically make the second home game the opener, then play Wichita State or? when the schedule permits.
Tell me one more time about how 'established teams' schedule games.
X, Butler? They're where we want to go. Don't really understand why you don't think it wouldn't be impressive to the selection committee, and the viewing audience entirely, to just take the lower two home games and replace them with better contests. Let me be clear. Better opponents.
I think that Ohio U as the opener, in place of Miami [I know MAC] on the schedule gives the fans something a stale, worn out series with Miami no longer does. Or it may. Change things up if it doesn't.
Swap the SEMO slot this year for a Wichita State. That would improve the competition model in the eyes of everyone. Not only the ones choosing who gets selected but all basketball fans.
A cookie-cutter model for UD? Man, UD is too unique to apply the common model imo.. I say if UD wants to play with the big boys, in a better conference, then they're going to have to shake things up. Look at Monmouth's schedule. See that effort? It can be done. It doesn't have to be a radical schedule like theirs, but it can be done. [I'm glad their fans are content to watch them play away on tv]
All I'm saying is make the effort to shake things up. I feel the BE isn't as ready for our courtship as we are for theirs.
UD could use better exposure to the national audience. That is the premise of what I'm saying will better our stance. On every front. One thing those initial schools added to the BE had in common I think was they were all more national brands than UD.
I don't want to hear that everybody does it, in our case. Everybody schedules that way? Monmouth? I'd like to talk feasibly about what UD can do to better its stance to the fans, the prospective new conference.. ahem, and the powers that be in the NCAA. The selection committee. I mean why not?
But a solid rebuttal this time would be appreciated.
The schedule is always an interesting topic to me, so thought it would be worth giving a solid rebuttal. I don't think it's that I don't "get" what you're saying insomuch as that I totally and whole-heartedly disagree with just about the entire post.

First off, I think if you're going to change something, whatever it is, you ought to have a clear goal in mind; what are you hoping to accomplish by changing the schedule and/or or scheduling model? More exposure? That's not a bad idea at all, but I'd argue that the best way to get more exposure for UD is to get to the NCAA Tournament and win. Our non-conference schedule the last three years has been perfectly fine in that regard. We had around the 12th best non-conference SOS this year, and got a 7 seed, even though we limped to the finish line of the regular season. Anyway, more exposure with more compelling nonconference games is a good idea, but to me, the exposure from making the big dance is wayyyyyy ahead of that. They are not either/or, but again, my point is why change something that isn't broken?

Monmouth is, quite frankly, a terrible example to compare. They played a great nonconference schedule, played a bunch of road games, won several good games, had a great record in their conference, made it to the conference title game... and were left home. We got a 7 seed. Our conferences aren't in the same zip code, but if you're suggesting we should play a noncon schedule like Monmouth, then, uh, I'm not sure what we're discussing. I know it's sort of an indirect comparison you're making, but maybe a better comparison would be the old school John Cheney Temple teams. Sure worked for them for several years. But again, our scheduling model has worked quite well for us - three straight at-large bids to the big dance. Why do we need to make wholesale changes? To get a better seed? To play one or two games on bigger TV networks in November or December? This doesn't even begin to get into the $$ argument, but giving up 3 or 4 or 5 home games isn't gonna work financially the way our program is set up. That's probably a different argument for a different thread.

So for the sake of argument, let's say we drop SEMO (who, by the way, was the ONLY school on our nonconference schedule who had an RPI above 200) and play Ohio U as the first game. There are a zillion variables in play here. Ohio U is not going to want to come here as a 1-way buy game. They are probably just good enough that they aren't going to agree to that, and not quite good enough that we should be going after them for a home and home. Should we replace Miami with Ohio U for a H/H series? Maybe, though that's a different debate... in a vacuum, if those are the only choices, would I rather play Ohio than Miami? I guess so. Word is that we probably are not going to renew the Miami series for the time being, but if we are going to replace Miami with another school for a H/H, I want it to be someone like, say, Tulsa, Memphis, West Virginia, Baylor, or another SEC school, not another MAC school.

So swap SEMO for Wichita State? If you put aside the difference of a buy game with a H/H, AND put aside that you want to have an easier game as the first game to get new guys incorporated, get some minutes for more guys, ease into the schedule a bit, etc., then you also have to consider whether Wichita wants to play UD and then when they can fit in the schedule... they, too wanted to start with an easier game, beating Charleston Southern in their first game. They played @ Tulsa in game 2 (lost) and then beat Emporia State (?) for an easy game before heading to Orlando. Anyway, when do we play them? This year, because they too were in the Orlando tourney, it's not a good example, but we had a heck of a time getting Alabama to play us, and only got them to agree after ESPN put the game in the 24 hour hoops marathon. Do you want to start the season on the road at Wichita State? They don't want Dayton as their home opener, they don't want to play us right before Orlando (even assuming we are not in the same exempt tourney), and we want to start the season with a relatively easy game at home.

So if you want to say that we ought to play more H/H against good teams and fewer buy games, that argument is decent, but it's probably only one or two additional games. UD tried to play more road games this year, but could not get Alabama to agree to start the series on the road, and negotiations with another P5 school for either a road or neutral game ended up falling through.

Just to look at three other games we played, should we have played Washington (RPI 82 - 19 wins on the season) instead of William and Mary (RPI 72 - 18 wins)? Nebraska (RPI 164 - 16 wins) instead of North Florida (RPI 166 - 19 wins)? Auburn (RPI 179 - 11 wins) instead of Furman (RPI 176 - 17 wins)? Those three Power 5 schools would be more of a TV draw, more interesting to fans, but in terms of SOS/RPI value, etc, it's about a wash... except for the fact that the three teams we got this year played @ UD, did not demand a return game, and were willing to be more flexible than I'm sure the other three schools would be. Does anyone want to play Auburn next year? Nebraska? No thanks... I think we can do better for our H/H series, and no way in heck would I have wanted to play @ Washington before heading to Orlando. You get MUCH better overall value playing RPI #72 from the CAA at home than you do playing RPI #82 from the PAC-12 on the road, in my opinion. Sure a road win over a P5, top-100 RPI team would be great, and a loss doesn't really hurt you, but remember that it is HARD to win on the road. Besides that, just the logistics of going on the road to Seattle make that kind of game very taxing. I'm not saying we shouldn't play road games, but again, the goal of our nonconference scheduling model is to get us the best chance to make the NCAA tournament.

In short, our scheduling model seems to be: play three games in an exempt tournament against three good teams on a neutral court. Play maybe 2 or 3 "easy" games - game 1 (SEMO this year), 1st game after returning from the exempt event (N Florida - not really a "cupcake"), then around finals week (Furman, who ended up RPI 176, really not that bad). Play a home-and-home series with three or four quality schools (this year, Miami, who should be dropping off, Vanderbilt, Arkansas, and Alabama, who we tried to get to start the series on the road). Play a few other buy games against decent teams (Chattanooga, William and Mary this year). According to UD Pride's RPI, this got us the 11th-best nonconference schedule in the nation this past season. What needs to change about that?

I didn't even mention Wright State in this post til now. Who do they replace? It ought to be a home and home series, right? For argument's sake, let's say we had a H/H series with St. Mary's instead of Miami, and we had played Alabama on the road this year. Those two small changes make the schedule from last year look a TON better, but in reality, it would not have moved the needle much, we would have had one fewer home game (assuming St. Mary's would want to play @ UD, and could have come in December), and it would have been a lot more taxing. AND we wouldn't have been in the 24 hour ESPN hoops marathon, which was pretty fun.

Anyway, short version: I'm fine with a few tweaks, and I think Miami O is on their way off the schedule. But wholesale changes? No thank you. Not necessary.
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  #144  
Old 04-03-2016, 11:22 AM
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Great post, and awesome rebuttal!
I threw Monmouth in there to show the old guard here on the board that thinking outside the box could be the thing to do in UD's (unique btw) case.. That is all. Some think being adventurous is putting the opposite shoe on first in the morning.
It is off-season and I'm happy with our OOC schedule. But I think if something can be done to improve our standing, in all of basketball fans' views, it has to start with any weaknesses.
Now if we're arguing that SEMO is not a weakness, then there is no way to sway you. But if you think it's a good off-season topic to discuss, then we probably need to talk in another thread. BTW, not to be an azz but after you said you disagreed with my entire post, you went on to nonchalantly agree with basically what I was saying, sans the specifics.
I don't know specifically how to switch a buy-game in the Arena to a one-way game with a 'Wichita State', and all the parameters, but that is the type opponent we need to get in place of SEMO's. Great trade imo.
I realize the ranking and recognize or OOC schedule as a strength. The only pertinent thing I've heard in rebut is that I need a specific plan, or else it won't work. It's a message board not the BoT's meeting #makeudbetter
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Old 04-03-2016, 12:01 PM
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I said multiple times to 'theoretically' make our 2nd home game our opener. Is Alabama too tough an opener? Not in my opinion. W&M was our 3rd game and by the grace of the hoops gods they were able to boost our ranking. Not every year that happens.
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Old 04-03-2016, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
I said multiple times to 'theoretically' make our 2nd home game our opener. Is Alabama too tough an opener? Not in my opinion. W&M was our 3rd game and by the grace of the hoops gods they were able to boost our ranking. Not every year that happens.
You lost me with "theoretically make our 2nd home game our opener".
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Old 04-03-2016, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
You lost me with "theoretically make our 2nd home game our opener".
Sorry. I meant by eliminating SEMO then theoretically our 2nd home game 'became' our 1st. In SEMO's place play a marquee team one time at their place when the schedule permits.

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Old 04-03-2016, 12:45 PM
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After following these scheduling threads since the departure of X...some things pop out.

I too want a schedule that I personally feel like is a good value in terms of home games. I have had discussions with people talking about price increases in terms of arena upgrades and how some believe that the seat prices and arena upgrades aren't worth the dollar due to the teams we play. Some valid points, some not so much. I am in the THirt camp at this point and that the scheduling model is paying off, as it is better on all facets than over 300 other teams and in the top tier in others...SOS/RPI Some garbage big name programs give the people paying more for season tickets the "feel good" of a solid schedule when all that is changing is the name of the schools...and we have found out it isn't about name, it is about the numbers.

Also, certain points have emerged frequently since the loss of a rivalry game such as X. People talk about scheduling "value" and being cheated as STH's. This is an emotional reaction and not based on any facts. Yes...the X game made everyone fell all warm and fuzzy inside once a year on the trip to the arena...and unfortunately now, due to the lack of that type of home game, people are butthurt about not getting a value for their dollar. These are also people that only seem to care about the value they get at the Arena, versus the value that the program sees from tournament appearances and advancement in said tournament. It gets old to hear people complain about the end result and to state they were cheated...no one was happy with a loss to Syracuse...don't like it...we can go back to the JOB years or bang our heads into a wall like the BG years....give me a break...UD owes you nothing and is attempting to put the best on the court...if they didn't we wouldn't have Archie.

I am sick of the b!tching and moaning by some, as in this day and age it isn't about name, it is about the numbers. The fancy charts that the selection committee uses has color coded blocks next to numbers, not the conference affiliation or name of school. Every school WANTS what the scheduling naysayers are stating, but is isn't practical or possible on a frequent basis to achieve that. You are going to have outliers each year, but it won't be the norm...Monmouth...if in 5 years they are scheduling the same and having success...bring this thread back up....other than the OOC...their conference schedule is comprised of our typical buy games. Monmouth was everyone else's cupcake when they were scheduled (5 tournament appearances in 20 years 4 NCAA 1 NIT)...just as we are on the long list of solid teams on the buy teams schedules.

Don't get me wrong, this is a totally different argument regarding STH/value/arena upgrades....this is referring to value based discussions and others emotional reactions specifically related to scheduling...not UD's financial forecast and revenue streams.
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  #149  
Old 04-03-2016, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
I said multiple times to 'theoretically' make our 2nd home game our opener. Is Alabama too tough an opener? Not in my opinion. W&M was our 3rd game and by the grace of the hoops gods they were able to boost our ranking. Not every year that happens.
You don't know that when they are scheduled...how many bigger name teams were we hot on when scheduled years in advance, only for them to not turn out as expected? It isn't as easy as it seems...
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  #150  
Old 04-04-2016, 06:38 AM
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I'll say this. After all the Title IX talk from last year, the Wright State debate doesn't seem so bad......
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  #151  
Old 04-04-2016, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Widget View Post
I'll say this. After all the Title IX talk from last year, the Wright State debate doesn't seem so bad......
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Oh yeah, Wright State. Got it Had to go back several thousand words but I found them.
DallasFlyer predicted Nagy would be their next coach in another thread. How about that, a Flyers fan knew the coach before the hire but it will take a month into the job before the casual Wright State fan knows (cares) who the new coach is. To any lurkers, have a niceday!!
Now, back to the regularly un-scheduled broadcast! Hit it, Swampy!!!
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  #152  
Old 04-04-2016, 09:37 AM
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I don't have an issue with the current scheduling philosophy. But, it should be a philosophy, not etched in absolute granite.

For example, next year, the team is loaded with 4 starting seniors. I'll be disappointed if the schedule is not upgraded in some way. The program should be looking for a TV game (or two) against a major opponent and be willing to play this as a buy game on the road. My rationale is that next year the tem has an opportunity to be very good. The chances of making a run in the NCAA tourney is much greater if the team is a 2-4 seed than a 6-7 seed. The only way to get to those levels is to beef up the schedule with a national game or two.

Some will argue that we don't need that but I disagree. Yes, we "could've been" a 4 seed this year but only if everything broke right--it rarely ever does. And this was with, frankly, a "lucky" streak of picking just the right teams that had "math" that helped the non con SOS. There are too many variables out of our control in that scenario. I'd rather "risk" that 4 seniors and an emerging center can beat a marquee team--even on their home court. Get it on national TV and emerge early in the season as a team everyone is talking about.
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  #153  
Old 04-04-2016, 09:50 AM
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It only makes sense in the window of opportunity presented as you said. Plus you go for the throat when an opportunity like this presents itself. Shake it up but dont upset things. Improve. The same could be said about Archie's coaching tenure. Look how aggressive UD has been to upgrade his compensation. No other Dayton coach ever had this attention. But that is entirely another ...wait, we might be able to fit that topic in this thread!
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  #154  
Old 04-04-2016, 09:52 AM
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I doubt we're going to see any more road games next year than what we already have, for budget reasons... we have Northwestern in Chicago (neutral site), and at Alabama.

For competitive reasons it makes sense, but for money reasons I don't see it happening.
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  #155  
Old 04-04-2016, 10:03 AM
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Yeah, we have short-term goals for our OOC opponents because of the present class but we probably should focus long-term because imo, I'm not ready to call next year's team Archie's best. That's why I think we could pull it off. UD could launch itself as a national brand with Archie at the helm. WTH not!?
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  #156  
Old 04-04-2016, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
I doubt we're going to see any more road games next year than what we already have, for budget reasons... we have Northwestern in Chicago (neutral site), and at Alabama.

For competitive reasons it makes sense, but for money reasons I don't see it happening.
There is a heck of a lot more $ Involved in getting to the elite 8/final 4 than one or two buy games that have, at most, 10K fannies in seats. Think boldly when a potential top 15 team is available. No...playing Northwestern does not count.
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  #157  
Old 04-04-2016, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
I doubt we're going to see any more road games next year than what we already have, for budget reasons...
Just not sure why Temple's, Xavier's, and VCU's budget situations are any different than UD's? Is UD somehow more strapped for cash than those schools?

Those schools have played a 15 home/15 away setup routinely.

And FWIW, I disagree with springborofan, I have no problem playing Northwestern in a supposedly neutral setting that is really a home game for Northwestern. That is a legitimate away/neutral game.

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  #158  
Old 04-04-2016, 10:30 AM
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Why not request more money to travel to a buy game. Instead of $80K why not request $150K?
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Old 04-04-2016, 10:32 AM
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Plus, if we keep up the Miami (OH) series, wouldn't it be our turn to visit Millett Hall? Another road game.
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Old 04-04-2016, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
Plus, if we keep up the Miami (OH) series, wouldn't it be our turn to visit Millett Hall? Another road game.
Could be, we will see, that will be 15 away/neutral games, and I'll shut up. 9 A10 away, 3 exempt tournament neutral, NW neutral, Miami away, Alabama away.
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Old 04-04-2016, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Just not sure why Temple's, Xavier's, and VCU's budget situations are any different than UD's? Is UD somehow more strapped for cash than those schools?

Those schools have played a 15 home/15 away setup routinely.

And FWIW, I disagree with springborofan, I have no problem playing Northwestern in a supposedly neutral setting that is really a home game for Northwestern. That is a legitimate away/neutral game.
The Northwestern Chicago game is a thank you to Kyle and Kendall. Get them in front of their family and friends. They probably would've played at Northwestern if they had too. Northwestern probably agreed to a quasi-neutral matchup instead. Going to UIC or another dumpster fire Chicago area school would have made no sense. Northwestern won't hurt the RPI

Its not like the Big Least powers that be would have allowed DePaul to schedule us.
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Old 04-04-2016, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
Why not request more money to travel to a buy game. Instead of $80K why not request $150K?
Duke: "Let's see...we offered Dayton $80K to lose at Cameron Indoor, but they demanded $150K. We offered Sisters of the Poor $85K, and they asked if we could keep the margin of victory to under 60, so I say we go with Sisters of the Poor instead of a good close game against Dayton."
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  #163  
Old 04-04-2016, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
Plus, if we keep up the Miami (OH) series, wouldn't it be our turn to visit Millett Hall? Another road game.
The current home/home obligation is up I believe. So they would have to renew the series, and then agree on where to start it. But I would be surprised (and disappointed) if it were renewed.

Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
The Northwestern Chicago game is a thank you to Kyle and Kendall. Get them in front of their family and friends. They probably would've played at Northwestern if they had too. Northwestern probably agreed to a quasi-neutral matchup instead. Going to UIC or another dumpster fire Chicago area school would have made no sense. Northwestern won't hurt the RPI

Its not like the Big Least powers that be would have allowed DePaul to schedule us.
It's more than a gift to Kyle, Kendall and Josh Cunningham. It's an opportunity to stay visible in the Chicago market and keep the recruiting momentum, and play in front a very large alumni base. Northwestern works fine for this, but if Dayton wanted to try to schedule a neutral site game in Chicago each year, they might be able to get other Big Ten programs. If not, I definitely think they could look to the AAC, Missouri Valley, etc. and find a decent partner.
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  #164  
Old 04-04-2016, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
Northwestern won't hurt the RPI
I don't know, hard to say, but I still like a road/neutral game, in Chicago, at the United Center, against a Big 10 opponent. That is a game in a big time city, at a big time venue, against a p5 opponent.

They have only had a sub 100 rpi 5 times in the last 23 years.

Season Record RPI Rank SOS Rank
2015-2016 rpi was #115
2014-2015 15-17 0.5216 124 0.5569 50
2013-2014 14-19 0.5193 123 0.5616 48
2012-2013 13-19 0.5011 168 0.5521 66
2011-2012 18-13 0.5702 65 0.5753 21
2010-2011 18-13 0.5502 87 0.5453 71
2009-2010 20-13 0.5268 116 0.5141 132
2008-2009 17-13 0.5537 78 0.5582 50
2007-2008 7-22 0.4633 224 0.5418 72
2006-2007 11-18 0.4876 177 0.5493 67
2005-2006 13-15 0.5360 102 0.5668 35
2004-2005 15-16 0.5216 119 0.5519 59
2003-2004 14-15 0.5287 105 0.5440 67
2002-2003 12-17 0.4933 169 0.5199 100
2001-2002 16-13 0.5124 127 0.4993 145
2000-2001 11-19 0.5099 134 0.5576 53
1999-2000 5-25 0.4380 251 0.5284 95
1998-1999 14-13 0.5493 78 0.5595 34
1997-1998 10-17 0.4717 190 0.5055 124
1996-1997 7-22 0.4590 203 0.5315 84
1995-1996 7-20 0.4489 226 0.5121 119
1994-1995 5-22 0.4401 230 0.5251 94
1993-1994 13-13 0.5417 83 0.5556 48
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  #165  
Old 04-04-2016, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
Why not request more money to travel to a buy game. Instead of $80K why not request $150K?
I believe the A10 has a rule in place that prevents us from being a buy game. Also, 100k is what UD pays the likes of a MAC school, I would hope we would get 200k if it was allowed.
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Old 04-04-2016, 01:56 PM
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Duke has been sold out and will be forever, so why would they pay us more to play there? Only a TV game would induce them.
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  #167  
Old 04-04-2016, 02:55 PM
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That's why I suggested to target that 2nd tier of teams. Gonzaga or Wichita State. Even Purdue or Indiana would be good, though not as good as the aforementioned. Still it is impossible to get Duke, in our situation, and darn-near impossible to get Kansas. So....
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  #168  
Old 04-04-2016, 03:36 PM
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UD will not do a one way road game with someone like Gonzaga or Wichita State, especially now that we are a rung or two higher on the ladder due to our performance the past three years, nor should we. If teams like that would do a home-and-home, fine. UD would do a one way road game only with the top teams, as it should be. The problem is, those top teams probably wouldn't want UD as a buy game, because they want their buy games to be sure wins. We did one way road games with North Carolina and Duke a few years ago, but I doubt they would have us in for a buy game now. We will continue to do neutral games when we can get them like we are doing with Northwestern next year and have done with Kentucky, Purdue, and Louisville in the past. I doubt Kentucky and Louisville would even give us a neutral game now. Purdue might.
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Old 04-04-2016, 08:12 PM
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Would swap SEMO for either Wichita State or Gonzaga with the intention of striking up a relationship with either by playing a one-time game at their place. In front of their fans. Enough of the old fuddy-duddy way of scheduling. #makeudbetter
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Old 04-04-2016, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
Would swap SEMO for either Wichita State or Gonzaga with the intention of striking up a relationship with either by playing a one-time game at their place. In front of their fans. Enough of the old fuddy-duddy way of scheduling. #makeudbetter
Why not strike up a relationship with a one time game at the Arena. Don't think our scheduling method is "fuddy-duddy" at all. I realize there is no changing your mind but once again our OOC is fine, don't need to do anything, if something falls right and we play a P5 or top -mid then fine but going for a one game situation in which we play away is not the way I would do it unless it is a top 5 program, Duke, UNC, UK, Kansas. NBE can't schedule us so Nova is out.
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  #171  
Old 04-05-2016, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Just not sure why Temple's, Xavier's, and VCU's budget situations are any different than UD's? Is UD somehow more strapped for cash than those schools?

Those schools have played a 15 home/15 away setup routinely.

And FWIW, I disagree with springborofan, I have no problem playing Northwestern in a supposedly neutral setting that is really a home game for Northwestern. That is a legitimate away/neutral game.
VCU and Temple are paying their head coaches about $1 million a year. Rumor is Archie is in the $2+ millions of dollars. So that's one thing.
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Old 04-05-2016, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
Would swap SEMO for either Wichita State or Gonzaga with the intention of striking up a relationship with either by playing a one-time game at their place. In front of their fans. Enough of the old fuddy-duddy way of scheduling. #makeudbetter
You call our way of scheduling "fuddy-duddy" (and call me an apologist for defending opening with a cupcake) and say we should be more like teams like Gonzaga and Butler. Well, Gonzaga opened with Mount St Mary's and Butler opened with The Citadel. Then I guess it makes sense for us to open with a cupcake as well. We ARE being like them.
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  #173  
Old 04-05-2016, 02:57 PM
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Then why aren't we a national brand like they are? #makeudbetter
How'd that pick pay out for you?
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  #174  
Old 04-05-2016, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
You call our way of scheduling "fuddy-duddy" (and call me an apologist for defending opening with a cupcake) and say we should be more like teams like Gonzaga and Butler. Well, Gonzaga opened with Mount St Mary's and Butler opened with The Citadel. Then I guess it makes sense for us to open with a cupcake as well. We ARE being like them.
We're 10 uber-successful years away from being Gonzaga or Butler. They didn't get there overnight and neither will we.

Which will make it that much sweeter when we get there. But it's a marathon, not a sprint.
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  #175  
Old 04-05-2016, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
We're 10 uber-successful years away from being Gonzaga or Butler. They didn't get there overnight and neither will we.

Which will make it that much sweeter when we get there. But it's a marathon, not a sprint.
True. But they also didn't get there by opening each season with Wichita State or Kansas on the road. Their schedules now don't look drastically different than back when they were nobody, other than the home and homes they can schedule - but not as openers.
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Old 04-05-2016, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
Then why aren't we a national brand like they are? #makeudbetter
How'd that pick pay out for you?
My pick didn't work out so well, but I'm still not sure if you picked Villanova or Syracuse.
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  #177  
Old 04-05-2016, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
My pick didn't work out so well, but I'm still not sure if you picked Villanova or Syracuse.
Yah, I got twisted around and don't know why I know how. I confused the two teams in regard to which school went to the ACC from the Big East, but I don't know why I would be thinking of them as I wrote that. They are comparable programs that had seen comparable success levels. Well before last night. And I was rooting for Syracuse after they beat UD so they were fresh in my mind. So, yeah, you got me there. But yeah, I pretty much broadcasted how I thought the Cats would win. So, touche...
There, that's my explanation, now can I get a hall pass to go take wizz?
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  #178  
Old 04-05-2016, 05:17 PM
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The going rate for most buy games these days is about $70k. It makes no economic sense for Dayton to be on the receiving end of a buy game when they probably make about five times that (at least) from playing at home. If they wanted to go to Duke or UNC for only $70, then I'm sure those schools would be glad to play them, but they're not going to pay Dayton what they're actually worth for a game like that when they could just as easily pay someone else only $70k instead, and come close to selling the game out, and get the game on TV, and keep all the extra revenue for themselves.

I think most of Dayton's home and homes are on national television. So, when you throw in national television and a return home game that will make at least five times what being on the receiving end of a buy game would pay them, option A makes a ton more sense. If you're a MAAC or Patriot League or NEC team, then getting $70k makes a lot of sense because you can't make that much by selling just a few thousand tickets (if that) at home in a game that probably won't be televised on any relevant network.

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  #179  
Old 04-05-2016, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
The current home/home obligation is up I believe. So they would have to renew the series, and then agree on where to start it. But I would be surprised (and disappointed) if it were renewed.



It's more than a gift to Kyle, Kendall and Josh Cunningham. It's an opportunity to stay visible in the Chicago market and keep the recruiting momentum, and play in front a very large alumni base. Northwestern works fine for this, but if Dayton wanted to try to schedule a neutral site game in Chicago each year, they might be able to get other Big Ten programs. If not, I definitely think they could look to the AAC, Missouri Valley, etc. and find a decent partner.
Read that they originally had Illinois play UIC in Chicago, but only got 5,000 people. Decided to involve Northwestern and Dayton due to NW's presence and fan interest of Dayton in the Chicago area. Basically, they needed teams that would bring fans so Illinois could play a game in Chicago.
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  #180  
Old 04-06-2016, 05:57 AM
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If Wright State was a powerful program that garnered some kind of reputation, it would be great to play them. Unfortunately, that program sucks and it would be worse than the awful Miami series has become.
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  #181  
Old 04-06-2016, 09:25 AM
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*assuming our players stop fooling around with their true teammate's girlfriends

Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
True. But they also didn't get there by opening each season with Wichita State or Kansas on the road.
Correct. They did it by winning their conference year after year after year...and then by winning a round or 2 or 3 in the NCAA Tournament.

We're on the right track. But winning the A10 year after year will be infinitely more difficult than winning a weaker conference. But by winning the A10 year after year, UD would be battle tested enough to also win in the NCAAs*.
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  #182  
Old 04-06-2016, 09:45 AM
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I agree. Win the A10 regular or tourney or finish second and make the semi's. This minutia of scheduling is second fiddle to the above. By the way UD has done a fantastic job of scheduling and constantly adjusting to the moving NCAA Committee's moving target, and the guess of what a team's strength will be in the coming year.

We are not going to get the benefit of the doubt, no matter how we schedule, so keep Archie and recruit better players.
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  #183  
Old 04-06-2016, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
If Wright State was a powerful program that garnered some kind of reputation, it would be great to play them. Unfortunately, that program sucks and it would be worse than the awful Miami series has become.
I'd say Miami and WSU have been about even for about the last 15 years, neither one being all that great.

Miami had some good success in the 1980's and 1990's though, and I think that is a very big difference between the two programs.

I favor continuing the Miami rivalry because of the road game every other year. But, I'd prefer only playing Miami and Wright State as buy games or at best 3 for 1's, if UD can replace the Miami series with a better series against a preferably p5 opponent.

Or, they could just play Miami or Wright State on a rotating every other year basis in a home and home series, that way they play both teams, without having to commit to playing both every year.

Year 1 Miami at UD
Year 2 at Wright State
Year 3 Wright State at UD
Year 4 at Miami
Year 5 Miami at UD
Year 6 at Wright State
Year 7 Wright State at UD
Year 8 at Miami
repeat

Last edited by ud2; 04-06-2016 at 02:17 PM..
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  #184  
Old 04-06-2016, 02:16 PM
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From Rollo: *assuming our players stop fooling around with their true teammate's girlfriends


Elaborate please.
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  #185  
Old 04-06-2016, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
From Rollo: *assuming our players stop fooling around with their true teammate's girlfriends


Elaborate please.
Search around...been discussed already...
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  #186  
Old 04-06-2016, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I'd say Miami and WSU have been about even for about the last 15 years, neither one being all that great.

Miami had some good success in the 1980's and 1990's though, and I think that is a very big difference between the two programs.

I favor continuing the Miami rivalry because of the road game every other year. But, I'd prefer only playing Miami and Wright State as buy games or at best 3 for 1's, if UD can replace the Miami series with a better series against a preferably p5 opponent.

Or, they could just play Miami or Wright State on a rotating every other year basis in a home and home series, that way they play both teams, without having to commit to playing both every year.

Year 1 Miami at UD
Year 2 at Wright State
Year 3 Wright State at UD
Year 4 at Miami
Year 5 Miami at UD
Year 6 at Wright State
Year 7 Wright State at UD
Year 8 at Miami
repeat

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  #187  
Old 04-06-2016, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Year 1 Miami at UD
Year 2 at Wright State
Year 3 Wright State at UD
Year 4 at Miami
Year 5 Miami at UD
Year 6 at Wright State
Year 7 Wright State at UD
Year 8 at Miami
repeat
Concerning discussions about playing Wright State, please keep this in mind for anyone with similar postings. Is the horse we keep on beating the very same horse or just the one you rode in on?



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  #188  
Old 04-06-2016, 08:41 PM
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Wright State hired a hell of a good coach in Scott Nagy. That is a surprisingly good hire for a program like WSU. When I heard they hired "the guy from South Dakota State" I just assumed they'd hired one of his assistants. They hired HIM.

I really don't understand how they pulled that off and/or why he wanted to leave in a move that seems like it's lateral at best.

Anyway, just wanted to express that. It won't change anyone's opinions, but I do think they hired a VERY good coach.
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  #189  
Old 04-06-2016, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
Wright State hired a hell of a good coach in Scott Nagy. That is a surprisingly good hire for a program like WSU. When I heard they hired "the guy from South Dakota State" I just assumed they'd hired one of his assistants. They hired HIM.

I really don't understand how they pulled that off and/or why he wanted to leave in a move that seems like it's lateral at best.

Anyway, just wanted to express that. It won't change anyone's opinions, but I do think they hired a VERY good coach.
Agree It sounds good and surprising at same time. Now a coach alone does not in itself make a program. Believe that the school was not providing much $ for other aspects of the program ... we shall see as the saying goes.
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  #190  
Old 04-06-2016, 09:09 PM
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Reported in the DDN that Nagy was making 210,000 a year at SDS on a yearly contract basis, a requirement for SD public employees. WSU is paying 2.5 million over a five year contract period. He is bringing two assistants with him. Also said that he and his wife will be closer to both of their families at WSU. Two children in college and two still at home. He was at SDS for 21 years and took them through the Div 2 to Div 1 transition.
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  #191  
Old 04-07-2016, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Lifelong Flyer Fan View Post
Reported in the DDN that Nagy was making 210,000 a year at SDS on a yearly contract basis, a requirement for SD public employees. WSU is paying 2.5 million over a five year contract period. He is bringing two assistants with him. Also said that he and his wife will be closer to both of their families at WSU. Two children in college and two still at home. He was at SDS for 21 years and took them through the Div 2 to Div 1 transition.
He's REALLY good. I also believe that he genuinely loved the school he was at. I did not know that he was only allowed to make $210k a year there. I can understand wanting to leave.

They were 26-8 this past year, but truth be told they blew some games to crap teams that they really should have won. But, he's still really good. There aren't too many teams that have gone through the transition to div1 as recently as they have and ended up being as good as they have. North Dakota State, who is a rival, is another team that has done it, but Tim Miles is now at Nebraska. That's not the best job, but it's a good job. Well, Nagy guided SDSU through an equally difficult process and he's not at Wright State. They're lucky to have him. If South Dakota didn't have have that requirement in place they probably wouldn't have him. I liked him so much that I thought schools like Mississippi State, Saint John's, Arizona State, George Mason, Nevada, and Utah State didn't even consider him a year ago. I know why they didn't. He doesn't have the right agent that's in with the right search firm, but that's another story. I don't think any of those schools (minus maybe Miss State) hired a better coach than Nagy. I don't know how long he'll be at Wright State, and it may be less than twelve months, but that's a GREAT hire for them.
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  #192  
Old 04-07-2016, 08:44 AM
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xubrew, The yearly contracts are the requirement in SD, not the salary. I didn't state it clearly.
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  #193  
Old 04-07-2016, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
I don't know how long he'll be at Wright State, and it may be less than twelve months, but that's a GREAT hire for them.
Less than/around 12 months, seems unlikely, but it happens on occasion...Thad Matta at Butler...Bob Huggins at Kansas State...Skip Prosser at Loyola Maryland...Matt Doherty at Notre Dame...Matt Painter at Southern Illinois...Chris Beard at Arkansas-Little Rock...Stan Heath at Kent State.
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  #194  
Old 04-07-2016, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Lifelong Flyer Fan View Post
Reported in the DDN that Nagy was making 210,000 a year at SDS on a yearly contract basis, a requirement for SD public employees. WSU is paying 2.5 million over a five year contract period. He is bringing two assistants with him. Also said that he and his wife will be closer to both of their families at WSU. Two children in college and two still at home. He was at SDS for 21 years and took them through the Div 2 to Div 1 transition.
Where are his family and his wife's family from? The one article in the DDN mentioned that his dad lives in Chicago.

I know nothing about Nagy, but he was an assistant for two years at Illinois in the late 80's...maybe if Groce is fired at Illinois after next year, if he has a good year at WSU, then Illinois might look to hire him.

The only other d1 connection he has is with SIU Edwardsville, where he was also an assistant coach. And IMO, the SIUE job is below the WSU job.

And working on a 1 year contract from year to year has to be nerve-wracking compared to the contracts that it seems that almost all other d1 schools offer. I'm surprised that schools in South Dakota do that.
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  #195  
Old 04-07-2016, 07:12 PM
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[QUOTE=ud2;454523]Where are his family and his wife's family from? The one article in the DDN mentioned that his dad lives in Chicago."

The article I read indicated both families were from Illinois. Said coming to WSU to see games will be 4 hour less of a drive.
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  #196  
Old 04-08-2016, 10:28 AM
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Nagy and family obviously wanted to move south for the great Dayton weather! Okay maybe to be closer to family.
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Old 04-08-2016, 01:53 PM
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I read a couple DDN article on the new WSU coach.

2 good stories:

1. Rollo, you will appreciate this one.

SDSU was playing at Illinois. Nagy's dad was sitting in the stands right behind the SDSU bench, and he was yelling loudly at the refs about what he thought were bad calls. At one point, one of the refs stops and looks at Nagy. Nagy told that the ref that the guy doing the yelling was not him or the coaches on his staff, and that some fan in the stands was responsible for the yelling, failing to tell the ref that the fan was his dad.

2. WSU's first? year of men's basketball had the WSU coach hold an open tryout at Spinning Hills school...it was a zoo...200 guys showed up...some/several? of the guys that made the team ended up flunking out at WSU and dropped off the team...the team used several area grade school?/high school gyms for practice, Stebbins High School was one of them, I guess WSU did not have a gym.

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  #198  
Old 04-15-2016, 05:55 AM
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This article is not about the mythical Gem City Jam, but it is a good piece about UD and WSU in sports by Marc Katz. "UD A Place to Emulate"
http://www.daytoncitypaper.com/on-your-marc-41216/
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  #199  
Old 04-18-2016, 08:00 PM
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Xavier was left out of the 2016 Gavitt Games, which is basically a Big East vs. Big Ten challenge. Marquette was also left out, only 8 teams from each league play in the Gavitt Games.

Xavier's AD sounds a bit ticked off:

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/spor...ames/83013494/:

"We are disappointed not to be a part of the Gavitt Games this season. We expected to host a Big Ten team and alerted the Big East office more than a year ago to our limited date availability because of the Puerto Rico exempt tournament," Xavier athletic director Greg Christopher said.

"The narrow date window wasn't an issue until the last few weeks. Through the numerous calls and exchanges, we moved other games and ultimately offered four possible dates where we could host a Big Ten opponent.

"Four potential dates and 14 potential Big Ten opponents - yet no game in the Cintas Center.

"We are actively working to fill the Big Ten scheduling void."



So anyway, Xavier is looking for a presumably non-buy game opponent to play at the Cintas Center. Hmmm, I bet a certain school about 50 miles to the north would be willing to start a home and home series with them. Lol.
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  #200  
Old 04-18-2016, 08:04 PM
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Won't happen. Believe none of the NBE schools will schedule he Flyers, at least for the time being.
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