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  #1  
Old 06-18-2022, 12:52 PM
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Top 144 countdown by collegesportsmadness.com, 2022-23 edition

https://www.collegesportsmadness.com...p-144-previews

Always a harbinger of the upcoming season, let the countdown begin.

#144 Delaware, #4 CAA

Jameer Nelson Jr. 14 ppg, 5 rpg


UMass 137/9
RI 133/8
GM 115/7
Davidson 91/6

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  #2  
Old 06-18-2022, 03:17 PM
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My prediction is Dayton at 22.
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  #3  
Old 06-21-2022, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
My prediction is Dayton at 22.

Seems like these guys usually sleep on Dayton.

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  #4  
Old 06-21-2022, 06:56 PM
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I expect they'll sleep on UD at about 32. But I think the Flyers will end up in the top ten. Great season ahead.
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  #5  
Old 06-25-2022, 12:36 PM
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UMass #137, #9 A10...they lost 3 double digit scorers

They lost about 55 ppg across 5 players.

5 incoming p5/be transfers

Frank Martin at the helm now.

https://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/20718

Last edited by ud2; 06-25-2022 at 12:42 PM..
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Old 06-25-2022, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
UMass #137, #9 A10...[/url]
Just a gut feeling, but come late February the talk of the A-10 will be Umass who performed much better than expectations and finished 3rd or 4th.
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Old 06-25-2022, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
My prediction is Dayton at 22.
That sounds about right
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  #8  
Old 06-25-2022, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
Just a gut feeling, but come late February the talk of the A-10 will be Umass who performed much better than expectations and finished 3rd or 4th.
Seems awfully optimistic...lots of competition: Dayton, SLU, Loyola, a resurgent George Mason, VCU, RI could be a factor IMO, you folks know how highly I think of Archie, Bonnies maybe, but iinm they lost a lot, Richmond got their act together last year but lost a lot iinm, Davidson could remain strong with the new hc....UMass finished at Torvik #106 last year

OTOH, 5 incoming transfers, 7 new players in all, things can change quickly in today's world with all these transfers with immediate eligibility.

Last edited by ud2; 06-25-2022 at 02:22 PM..
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  #9  
Old 06-25-2022, 02:37 PM
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https://barttorvik.com/

Torvik projections for 2022-2023

01. Dayton 35
02. SLU 41
03. Loyola 51
04. VCU 73
05. Richmond 101
06. Davidson 103
07. GM 110
08. RI 125
09. UMass 141
10. Fordham 146
11. LaSalle 151
12. SBU 163
13. GW 176
14. Duquesne 187
15. SJU 228
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  #10  
Old 06-29-2022, 09:01 AM
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RI #133/#8

https://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/20723

Lost about 45 ppg across 5 players...8 new players this year...very similar to UMass, lost 1 double digit scorer and 2 scorers averaging 9 ppg

Last edited by ud2; 06-29-2022 at 09:04 AM..
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  #11  
Old 07-01-2022, 10:43 AM
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USF and BG...#132/#8

https://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/20724
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  #12  
Old 07-13-2022, 01:24 AM
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I see the Georgetown Hoyas are ranked 1 position behind that perennial powerhouse, Montana State. Oh, how times have changed.
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  #13  
Old 07-18-2022, 07:20 PM
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George Mason #115, #7 A10

8 new incoming guys...5 frosh, 1 sophomore, and 2 transfers

Josh Oduro returning averaging 18 and 8. 2 other double digit scorers returning

https://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/20752

This huge roster turnover thing is now just kind of normal these days with the no-sit transfer rule.
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Old 07-19-2022, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
George Mason #115, #7 A10

8 new incoming guys...5 frosh, 1 sophomore, and 2 transfers

Josh Oduro returning averaging 18 and 8. 2 other double digit scorers returning

https://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/20752

This huge roster turnover thing is now just kind of normal these days with the no-sit transfer rule.
It's like building an AAU team now....
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Old 07-26-2022, 07:24 PM
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Wichita State #106...hc Isaac Brown will be in his 3rd year there taking over for Gregg Marshall.

IB at WSU made the first four of the ncaat in year 1, in year 2 they were Torvik #89 with no ncaat or nit.

WSU made the ncaat 1 time from 1989 until 2011 before Marshall got them back into the ncaat in 2012.

We will see if IB can keep them winning.

https://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/20781
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Old 07-27-2022, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
It's like building an AAU team now....
Wichita State has 10 new guys on scholarship coming in plus 3 new walk ons.

And I noticed that this top 144 countdown this year stopped including their write-up on each team. The write-up was about a paragraph long in the past.

They probably stopped including the write-up because it is too hard to project what will happen with a lot of teams since there is such a large number of players transferring in and out.

How can you accurately say what WSU will do with 10 new players coming in and 7 players from last year that left due to graduation or transferred out or whatever.

Last edited by ud2; 07-27-2022 at 08:09 AM..
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Old 07-27-2022, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Wichita State #106...hc Isaac Brown will be in his 3rd year there taking over for Gregg Marshall.

IB at WSU made the first four of the ncaat in year 1, in year 2 they were Torvik #89 with no ncaat or nit.

WSU made the ncaat 1 time from 1989 until 2011 before Marshall got them back into the ncaat in 2012.

We will see if IB can keep them winning.

https://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/20781
Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Wichita State has 10 new guys on scholarship coming in plus 3 new walk ons.

And I noticed that this top 144 countdown this year stopped including their write-up on each team. The write-up was about a paragraph long in the past.

They probably stopped including the write-up because it is too hard to project what will happen with a lot of teams since there is such a large number of players transferring in and out.

How can you accurately say what WSU will do with 10 new players coming in and 7 players from last year that left due to graduation or transferred out or whatever.
Why do we care about Wichita State on a UD message board? I'd get it if they were a future opponent, but we aren't even scheduled to play them. Is there something I am missing?
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Old 07-27-2022, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
Why do we care about Wichita State on a UD message board? I'd get it if they were a future opponent, but we aren't even scheduled to play them. Is there something I am missing?
I care for these reasons:

1. WSU was talked about being an A10 expansion candidate. The elephant in the room IMO is whether WSU can keep winning without Coach Marshall. They have 1 ncaat appearance since 1989 without him, a 33 year span.

2. The massive number of transfers in and out across d1 college basketball explains IMO why there is no write-up for each team. WSU having 10 in and 7 out this year is a perfect example of this.

3. It is July. What else are we going to talk about?
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Old 07-27-2022, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I care for these reasons:

1. WSU was talked about being an A10 expansion candidate. The elephant in the room IMO is whether WSU can keep winning without Coach Marshall. They have 1 ncaat appearance since 1989 without him, a 33 year span.

2. The massive number of transfers in and out across d1 college basketball explains IMO why there is no write-up for each team. WSU having 10 in and 7 out this year is a perfect example of this.

3. It is July. What else are we going to talk about?
That's it? I know people that went to Eastern Michigan, it's July, I guess I can just strike up a conversation about them since we played them 6 years ago?

How about Sienna? when we added VCU and GMU, people were talking about adding Sienna. They just beat OSU here in the first 4.
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Old 07-27-2022, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
Why do we care about Wichita State on a UD message board? I'd get it if they were a future opponent, but we aren't even scheduled to play them. Is there something I am missing?
Many people on this board (myself included) have wanted them in the A10 for decades.
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Old 07-27-2022, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
That's it? I know people that went to Eastern Michigan, it's July, I guess I can just strike up a conversation about them since we played them 6 years ago?

How about Sienna? when we added VCU and GMU, people were talking about adding Sienna. They just beat OSU here in the first 4.
Sure. You can talk about them.

What did Eastern Michigan and Sienna come in at in the top 144 countdown?

UD2 didn't start a random thread about Wichita State. Its a thread about the top 144 countdown in the offseason. Any team is fair game for a few messages when they show up in the countdown.
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Old 08-11-2022, 06:52 AM
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Davidson #91/#6 A10...they lost 3 double digit scorers...Bob McKillop's son Matt is the new coach

Senior guard Foster Loyer returns, he averaged 16 ppg last year.

https://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/20838

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  #23  
Old 08-11-2022, 10:27 PM
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Didn't see mentioned that UD opponent UNC Asheville is #124
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Old 08-13-2022, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I care for these reasons:

1. WSU was talked about being an A10 expansion candidate. The elephant in the room IMO is whether WSU can keep winning without Coach Marshall. They have 1 ncaat appearance since 1989 without him, a 33 year span.
George Mason says “howdy!”
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Old 08-15-2022, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post
George Mason says “howdy!”
This comparison is absurd. You have to go back to 2009 to find the last time Wichita State finished outside the top-100 in Ken Pom.

I have no idea whether they will continue to succeed without Marshall but putting them in the same sentence as George Mason is laughable. One was a flash in the pan and the other is a national program with unwavering fan support and continuous on-court success.
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Old 08-15-2022, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by NCkevi View Post
Didn't see mentioned that UD opponent UNC Asheville is #124
I see on this countdown that UNC Asheville is a team of seniors and juniors. They have zero sophomores and only one freshman.
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Old 08-16-2022, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
This comparison is absurd. You have to go back to 2009 to find the last time Wichita State finished outside the top-100 in Ken Pom.

I have no idea whether they will continue to succeed without Marshall but putting them in the same sentence as George Mason is laughable. One was a flash in the pan and the other is a national program with unwavering fan support and continuous on-court success.
I am not sure, I'd have to look it up, but I actually think Viper might be spot on.

Wichita used to be in the MVC, no offense, but they were nothing special until Marshall took over and got them into the American. They seem very similar to George Mason: neither program was anything special, but they had a good run with a good coach, Larranaga, and they parlayed that run into getting into a better conference.

Wichita didn't get into the American until 2017. They used to be just a sort of middling MVC team. Marshall was the one who really put them on the map.

Wichita is like Creighton iinm. Hc Dana Altman was the one who put Creighton on the map in the MVC and eventually was ultimately responsible for getting them into the Big East even though he had left by the time they got into the BE.

Without Altman's run at Creighton, CU never gets into the BE.

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Old 08-16-2022, 09:40 AM
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WSU has been in the NCAA in 8 of the last 10 years. GM has been there once, and barely has played .500 ball over that period of time. They were a poor addition to the A10. WSU would be a great addition. WSU is sorting through the Marshall mess, but will be back. Like UD they have the support.

Who cares what anyone did back when.
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Old 08-16-2022, 09:49 AM
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And the other thing that sort of ties Wichita and Creighton together is the fact that Wichita and Marshall did not really start taking off in the MVC until Creighton had departed for the BE.

CU had a stranglehold on the MVC with Altman. CU left for the BE, and then Wichita and Marshall filled that void at the top of the MVC.

Wichita had a stranglehold on the MVC while Marshall was at Wichita.

If CU never leaves for the BE, it is possible that CU retains its hold on the MVC, and Wichita never lands Marshall, and Wichita never gets into the American.

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Old 08-16-2022, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
WSU has been in the NCAA in 8 of the last 10 years. GM has been there once, and barely has played .500 ball over that period of time. They were a poor addition to the A10. WSU would be a great addition. WSU is sorting through the Marshall mess, but will be back. Like UD they have the support.

Who cares what anyone did back when.
I disagree. At the time, GM to the A10 made sense. They were very hot, they had made the Final 4. But Larranaga left, and it all sort of collapsed.

There is no guarantee that WSU doesn't fall back into obscurity without Marshall. I bet Wichita's fan support only took off with Marshall. I bet they were only averaging something like 5k fans or less per game in the pre-Marshall years in the MVC.

If Wichita starts losing, last year was no good for them and this year is not looking great, that fan support could start to crater.

But, the landscape is changing, the American is in turmoil having lost UConn, and the American will be losing Cincinnati, UCF, and Houston to the Big 12, so maybe that will help Wichita regain their footing.

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Old 08-16-2022, 11:38 AM
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WSU averaged over 10,000 fans per game in the 3 years prior to Greg Marshall becoming their head coach.
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Old 08-16-2022, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
WSU averaged over 10,000 fans per game in the 3 years prior to Greg Marshall becoming their head coach.
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And to add to that the last time average attendance was below 9,000 was 2002-2003 when the season was played at the Kansas Coliseum while renovations were being made to their arena. Silly facts have now entered the picture.lol.
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Old 08-16-2022, 01:16 PM
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There have been 21 teams listed since Wichita State.
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Old 08-16-2022, 01:19 PM
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It was seven years after 2006, when GM made the semi's, and the A10 made their mistake. In those seven years they made the NCAA twice in a weak league. Since joining the A10 they are way below .500.
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Old 08-16-2022, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
It was seven years after 2006, when GM made the semi's, and the A10 made their mistake. In those seven years they made the NCAA twice in a weak league. Since joining the A10 they are way below .500.
I would like to amend my comments.

Ar the time that George Mason and Davidson were added, I was not thrilled with either one of them. If I had been in charge, I would not have added either one of them.

I would not have added Loyola either.

What I meant to say was that GM at the time made more sense than they do now.

Davidson has worked out, but now that McKillop is gone, who knows if they stay at the top.

All 3, Davidson, GM, and Loyola, are potentially one hit wonders with McKillop, Larranaga, and Moser.

I would have definitely stayed at 12 teams and tried hard to kick out Fordham and LaSalle or Duquesne to get to 10 or even 8, drop GW too. More teams is not always better.

10:

Dayton
VCU
SLU
Bonnies
RI
GW
Richmond
Saint Joe
UMass
Duquesne

8:

Dayton
VCU
SLU
RI
Bonnies
Richmond
UMass
Saint Joe

The only team that I really, really like as an expansion team is Murray State, and they aren't interested in the A10 because the A10 doesn't offer FCS football.

Even Belmont might be a one hit wonder with Byrd. I would have taken Belmont instead of Loyola.

I would also consider Northern Iowa, but football is again a problem.

Vermont also intrigues me. Their last 3 coaches, Brennan, Lonergan, and Becker, have done well, but the America East is a weak league.

Edit: I'd also consider Wichita State. Wait and see how the current coach does though.

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Old 08-16-2022, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I would like to amend my comments.

Ar the time that George Mason and Davidson were added, I was not thrilled with either one of them. If I had been in charge, I would not have added either one of them.

I would not have added Loyola either.

What I meant to say was that GM at the time made more sense than they do now.

Davidson has worked out, but now that McKillop is gone, who knows if they stay at the top.

All 3, Davidson, GM, and Loyola, are potentially one hit wonders with McKillop, Larranaga, and Moser.

I would have definitely stayed at 12 teams and tried hard to kick out Fordham and LaSalle or Duquesne to get to 10 or even 8, drop GW too. More teams is not always better.

10:

Dayton
VCU
SLU
Bonnies
RI
GW
Richmond
Saint Joe
UMass
Duquesne

8:

Dayton
VCU
SLU
RI
Bonnies
Richmond
UMass
Saint Joe

The only team that I really, really like as an expansion team is Murray State, and they aren't interested in the A10 because the A10 doesn't offer FCS football.

Even Belmont might be a one hit wonder with Byrd. I would have taken Belmont instead of Loyola.

I would also consider Northern Iowa, but football is again a problem.

Vermont also intrigues me. Their last 3 coaches, Brennan, Lonergan, and Becker, have done well, but the America East is a weak league.
Football isn't a problem with MVC schools. Technically, MVC and Missouri Valley Football Conference are two different conferences. That was part of the reason it took so long to add Murray State to the MVC is because they were negotiating to joing MVC and MVFC.
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Old Yesterday, 01:55 PM
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Loyola has made 3 NCAA appearances in the last 5 years and won 7 games in that span. Last year they made the tourney and Moser was coaching at Oklahoma. I think this is the best add the A10 has made a long time (before you even consider that Chicago is the third largest market in the country and by far the biggest in the Midwest), and frankly, their recent history is objectively better than ours in terms of one or the other being a "one hit wonder." For purposes of that statement, I view 2019 for what it was, a lost year. I do not assume that we would have won the National Championship that year.
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Old Yesterday, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
Loyola has made 3 NCAA appearances in the last 5 years and won 7 games in that span. Last year they made the tourney and Moser was coaching at Oklahoma. I think this is the best add the A10 has made a long time (before you even consider that Chicago is the third largest market in the country and by far the biggest in the Midwest), and frankly, their recent history is objectively better than ours in terms of one or the other being a "one hit wonder." For purposes of that statement, I view 2019 for what it was, a lost year. I do not assume that we would have won the National Championship that year.
Just to be clear, the one hit wonder thing that I am referring to is the head coach. I am not literally referring to Loyola or Davidson or GM having one good year because all 3 obviously had multiple good years.

I am referring to the fact that, at least as far as recent history is concerned, all 3 have only had 1 good head coach. A program is not just about having success with one good head coach. A program is about being able to have success across multiple head coaches.

This is my objection with Loyola, Davidson, GM, Wichita State to an extent(almost all of their success was with Marshall, but they had a small amount of success with Turgeon before Marshall took over), Belmont, and Northern Iowa. All of those schools owe almost all of their sucess to 1 good head coach.

Loyola...Moser
Davidson...McKillop
GM...Larranaga
Northern Iowa...Jacobsen
Belmont...Byrd
Wichita...Marshall


Only Murray State and Vermont have been able to have longer term success with 3 or more head coaches.

Murray State has had a ton of good coaches: Mick Cronin, Steve Prohm, Mark Gottfried, Billy Kennedy, and Matt McMahon.

And they went to the NCAAT or won their league or had the coach of the year with lesser-known head coaches too: Tevester Anderson, Harlan Hodges, Cal Luther, Fred Overton, Ron Greene, Steve Newton, and Scott Edgar.

They have had several guys play in or get drafted into the NBA too. They have won multiple ncaat games, and they have been ranked multiple times. They have had multiple All Americans. They have 18 ncaat appearances.

It just looks like a really solid program that has had success every decade since the 1950's. They do all the things that really solid programs do.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murr...etball#Coaches

All Murray State does is just win, win, win all the time.

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Old Yesterday, 04:00 PM
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Win, win win….in the OVC!

We’ll see if Murray can sustain that success in MVC.

A different perspective is to see how a program does when they move up a league:

Wichita: MVC to AAC still unsure
Butler: Horizon-A10-BE pretty solid
Belmont: Atlantic Sun to OVC solid
Loyola: Horizon to MVC solid
Davidson: Southern to A10. Solid
VCU: Colonial to A10 very Solid

Murray State’s ability to move up is unknown. For that reason, and Chicago market, Loyola is a better fit IMHO. Not discounting Murray State but if I had to pick one, I’d go with Loyola.
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Old Yesterday, 08:11 PM
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Murray State's Basketball team is called the Racers. The other sports go by the Thoroughbreds.

So there's that.
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Old Yesterday, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
Murray State's Basketball team is called the Racers. The other sports go by the Thoroughbreds.

So there's that.
All teams except baseball switched to the Races in the 50's. Their baseball team went by the nickname Breds until it switched to the Racers in 2014.

https://goracers.com/sports/2005/10/31/730171800.aspx
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Old Yesterday, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
Win, win win….in the OVC!

We’ll see if Murray can sustain that success in MVC.

A different perspective is to see how a program does when they move up a league:

Wichita: MVC to AAC still unsure
Butler: Horizon-A10-BE pretty solid
Belmont: Atlantic Sun to OVC solid
Loyola: Horizon to MVC solid
Davidson: Southern to A10. Solid
VCU: Colonial to A10 very Solid

Murray State’s ability to move up is unknown. For that reason, and Chicago market, Loyola is a better fit IMHO. Not discounting Murray State but if I had to pick one, I’d go with Loyola.
I think Murray State and Belmont are going to be at the top of the MVC, I like both programs. I will be pretty surprised if those two aren't consistently at the top.

I think much more often than not when you have a winning program move up to a better league, that program is able to successfully handle the new challenge.

These winning programs just have the it factor. They just know how to get the job done. They institutionally just seem to have figured out how to win. They do whatever they need to do to git 'er done.

And I looked at the last about 15 years of numbers for Murray State, Belmont, the MVC teams, and the OVC teams. MSU and BU were definitely being held back by the other OVC teams. And MSU and BU are already better than all the other MVC teams. MSU and BU moving to the MVC is going to be nothing but a plus for those two, their ratings will no longer be dragged down so much by the other awful OVC teams. It should not be surprising that those two will be at the top of the MVC.

I also think MSU and BU would do well in the A10 or American.

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