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  #1301  
Old 06-30-2022, 03:32 PM
Medford Medford is offline
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So more people are now saying this is all but a "done deal" and expect a presser in the next 24-48 hours.


Color me skeptical, and I shudder that this is just another dart thrown at schools like UD were football doesn't reign supreme, but lets play along for poops and laughs..


Why stop at 16, seems logical that USC and UCLA will need partners our west to manage their Olympic sports. Keeping with the AAU preference that is the BIG, add Colorado, Arizona, Washington and Oregon to a 6 team west pod that now jumps the conference up to 20 teams. Then we'll form a midwest Pod, add Kansas to Nebraska, Wisky, Minny, and Northwestern and now you are at 21 teams. Then we will move to the "north" division, IU, Purdue, OSU, Mich, MSU and Illinois form this pod. Finally, we need some partners in the South/East pod to join Penn State, Maryland & Rutgers so lets go digging in the often rumored ACC pond and add North Carolina, Virginia and GTech.


Intriguing for sure. anything close to reality? Who knows, 2 hours ago I would have laughed if some stranger swore USC and UCLA were joining the B10. And whatever happened to that BIG, P12, ACC alliance thing?


Does the SEC expand more coast to coast as well? Not sure who is left to grab that would intrigue them. Florida St, Arizona St? Do they try and jump at teams like Arizona or GTech or UNC before the B1G does?
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Old 06-30-2022, 03:35 PM
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@NicoleAuerbach
Just got off the phone with someone who believes this eventually leads to two megaconferences ó the Big Ten and SEC ó with 20 or more members apiece.

College football writer for The Athletic
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  #1303  
Old 06-30-2022, 04:33 PM
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@Brett_McMurphy
USC & UCLA move to Big Ten should be completed by Friday & Big Ten may not stop at 16, sources told
@ActionNetworkHQ
. Big 12 may get aggressive & look to add Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado & Utah. “We’re headed to super conferences,” source said
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  #1304  
Old 06-30-2022, 08:01 PM
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The deed is done https://www.espn.com/college-sports/...pac-12-big-ten. Donít sleep on Clemson, Florida State or U of Miami joining the B1G to cover the entire country like the NFL.
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  #1305  
Old 06-30-2022, 08:05 PM
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We've jumped the shark.
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  #1306  
Old 06-30-2022, 09:22 PM
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The end result of this fault line crumbling could be the end of the line for UD basketball in NCAA tournaments. It may take another 10 years but I can see a future where the ďpower 4Ē have their own tournament.

Football drives all of this. If this is the future itís imperative UD align with Big East members (+ Gonzaga). It may be the only avenue left to get a seat at the table.
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  #1307  
Old 06-30-2022, 09:30 PM
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Reports Oregon and Washington both applied to the Big 10 and may be in by the end of tonight
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  #1308  
Old 06-30-2022, 09:34 PM
Monster Man Monster Man is offline
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Big money and power is ruining college sports.
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  #1309  
Old 07-01-2022, 01:14 AM
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Somehow, I can't help but feel that when the Carthage Gladiator League merged with the Gaul Gladiator League, that was the end of the Roman Republic.
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  #1310  
Old 07-01-2022, 08:22 AM
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It feels like two earthquakes are happening simultaneously to change CBB dramatically. You have the NIL stuff happening, changing the recruiting situation, and now, it looks like we have a complete revamp of league affiliation on the brink. I'm not sure where this ends up, but those are two very powerful forces. Money changes everything......
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  #1311  
Old 07-01-2022, 09:17 AM
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Hearing the ACC is looking at UConn now.
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  #1312  
Old 07-01-2022, 09:35 AM
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Question PAC-?

Just broke that USC and UCLA will head to the Big10. So, now, the Oregon Ducks are in a dilemma: stay in what could be in a weakened conference, or go with them.
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  #1313  
Old 07-01-2022, 09:51 AM
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It was reported that the B10 was ready to sign a TV rights package for 1 very large BILLION. But did not hear over what period of time. All about FB and $$$ nothing more, nothing less.

To indicate how much that $1B means to just ONE conference, the TV rights to broadcast the whole NCAA BB Tournament (covering all the D1 conferences and 68 teams) was $1B IIRC.

Putting that in perspective, if the B10 goes to 20 members (there is already some talk about that happening) that ONE BILLION over 20 members is (if I can calculate correctly ) a cool $50M each.

Not bad for coaches and staff salaries. And to think the NIL money flowing in to the athletes means that the schools need to cover all expenses for the support of the teams (scholly, Room & Board) is less of an impact on other finances.

I would think the next shoe to fall is that (sans NCAA) that a certain level of NIL earnings will be used to pay for attending those schools. After all they will be getting paid for their talents related to Name Image Likeness
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  #1314  
Old 07-01-2022, 10:52 AM
Glen Clark Glen Clark is offline
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Originally Posted by OregonMike View Post
Just broke that USC and UCLA will head to the Big10. So, now, the Oregon Ducks are in a dilemma: stay in what could be in a weakened conference, or go with them.

Perhaps a merger: the remains of the Big12 and the remains of the Pac12.

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  #1315  
Old 07-01-2022, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Glen Clark View Post
Perhaps a merger: the remains of the Big12 and the remains of the Pac12.

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BIG looking to take a couple more PAC teams and will probably also get ND and a 2-3 ACC teams. The landscape had this feel even 3-4 years ago and felt like there would be no more than 3 super conferences in the next 5-10 years but it's happening even sooner.
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  #1316  
Old 07-01-2022, 07:36 PM
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It seems like everything rests on Notre Dame. I heard on 97.1 the fan Columbus this afternoon that basically the Big Ten is pausing all applications until Notre Dame makes a decision. They of course have that bill of rights issue for the ACC until 2036, but I have a feeling Notre Dame will argue things have dramatically changed since that was signed. Also something to watch, NBC is poised to be part of the big 10 deal, so in theory, perhaps they fold the Notre Dame home games into that package?
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  #1317  
Old 07-01-2022, 11:03 PM
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Ive followed ND football for 35yrs so here's my 2 cents.

The amount of ad revenue and TV eyeballs Notre Dame brings dwarfs every other program in the Big10. ND games routinely score the highest marks on network and cable TV every year and thats even when ND has had "meh" seasons. Comes down to one simple reason: half the country tunes in to see the Irish win and the other half is tuning in just to see them lose. No other brand -- Ohio State, Alabama, USC, Texas, etc -- is more polarizing across all 50 states and drives such opinionated response. Whether thats good, bad, indifferent, justified, or unjustified doesn't matter. Notre Dame has always been a ratings goldmine.

Ive read numbers that ND's ACC exit penalty could be as much as $150M (it supposedly also has a clause that states if ND joins a league for football it MUST be the ACC so that might trigger additional fines). They could conceivably earn all of that back in 1.5 years in the Big10 however as I'm hearing $1B TV contract numbers. The NBC contract ends in 2025 I believe and its a paltry $25M/yr. Thirty years ago when ND signed with NBC it was a windfall profit people couldn't even wrap their heads around -- how could anyone compete with that? Now its costing the Irish $40-70M a year.

There is bad blood between the Big10 and ND going back to Fielding Yost all but nixing at least two attempts by ND to join the Big10 with the support of most of the other institutions already in hand. In the 1980s there was a movement by the Big10 to reach out to ND and ND remembered the past and told them to go pound sand. They eventually gobbled up Penn State instead. But 2022 is a different time and all those people that held grudges back then are six feet under.

The Big10 would never allow ND to be a partial football member, though ND would retain their non-negotiable game vs USC as it would now be a league game. But they also have non-negotiables with Stanford and Navy. With a league this big it could pose some scheduling challenges and non-con limitations where ND would more or less play within the same pool of 20 teams every year and that's not something they want to easily do away with. They also have the Shamrock Series which plays at Yankee Stadium, Dublin Ireland, etc. They place a high value on diverse schedules and already have home/home contracts in place with Texas A&M, Arkansas, etc, along with one-time games with BYU, Cal, and others.

AD Jack Swarbrick is a smart guy and one of the most respected leaders in terms of running an athletic program. He knows everybody -- and everybody knows him. Purely for money and geographic fit the Big10 makes the most sense. They've played the likes of Michigan, Purdue, and Michigan States for 100 years. They used to play Penn State all the time as independents. Its the natural move and would also make travel easier. Obviously they are now in a home/home with Ohio State beginning this year in Columbus.

Notre Dame really likes what the ACC provides however in terms of climate and reaching the southern recruiting states. The Olympics sports hold a strategic advantage playing in the ACC during the cold early spring and late fall months and that's a big selling point for those programs. Additionally, the ACC is a modestly better academic fit with Duke, Wake, Virginia, Va Tech, and Miami among others that are high academic institutions. Getting those southern football recruits is also a big plus as ND already has the Midwest footprint covered. But it poses more travel considerations because you're not busing anywhere and the money is not great. ND football plays an abbreviated 5-game ACC schedule. But other than Clemson right now there's not a ton going on. Miami, FSU, Va Tech, are all pretty milktoast at the moment. UNC and NC State are hit-or-miss. And with the Big10 adding USC and UCLA -- one of the Top-5 football brands (USC) and an absolute powerhouse athletic department (UCLA), ND could stand to lose if they choose to stay put because the ACC is going to continue to get more marginalized. It only gets worse if UW and UO somehow talk their way into the Big10. Plus USC and UCLA's Olympic sports massively upgrade the Big10 and ND places a high value on their Olympic sports.

If the Big10 continues to expand and gobble up more Pac12 schools like Colorado, Utah, and Arizona, then ND's commitment to national reach would be largely satisfied.

I really dont know what ND will do. For decades I said they valued their football independence too much and even now despite the chaos they have the #2 and #1 football recruiting classes for 2023 and 2024 so they are doing just fine. But its less about now and more about what things will look like in 5-10-20 years. I liken it to Dayton valuing independence too much and watching teams like Xavier join conferences, caulk their hulls, and become a bigger and better brand.

I've read a couple articles suggesting ND could join the SEC but its a terrible academic fit. Michigan, Rutgers, NWestern and a cpl others do just enough to keep ND happy.

No matter what happens to ND, more schools will continue to scramble because even movement like TX and OK to the SEC was seen as striking but within the bounds of reason. But USC and UCLA to the Big10 breaks all prior covenants of tradition, geography, and precedent. We are headed to 2-3 Super Conferences and perhaps also tiered hierarchies -- either explicit or implicit without saying the obvious part out loud. Other football schools like UNLV, San Diego State, Wyoming, Colorado State, Western Michigan etc will be disposed of in all practicality.

What's that mean for the basketball-only schools? Well it's not great because the distance between the haves- and have-nots in hoops will continue to widen because of the money discrepancy generated from football. When a Big10 school can earn more in one season from conference network TV money than UD can spend on its entire athletic department in 7-10 years, its a problem of competitive advantage -- and we haven't even discussed NIL yet and its moral hazards. There may end up being the same unspoken class divisions in basketball too -- unsaid but still there. Even schools like Gonzaga and Villanova may feel the pinch of being forced to play hoops with 1/10th the war chest. If there's any silver lining, its that we've seen basketball is a sport where the marginalized teams can often punch above their weight class and still make noise: Butler, Mason, VCU, Wichita, Loyola, Dayton, Gonzaga, SMC, Xavier, etc. But these are albatrosses and you need the stars align to get the traction you want.

The USC/UCLA move was in my opinion the beginning of the end of 75 years of traditional footprints, rivalries, and loyalties. It's all about chasing the benjamins now and every chess move will necessitate a counter-move that may have to defy convention to keep yourself in the game.
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  #1318  
Old 07-02-2022, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Ive followed ND football for 35yrs so here's my 2 cents.

The amount of ad revenue and TV eyeballs Notre Dame brings dwarfs every other program in the Big10. ND games routinely score the highest marks on network and cable TV every year and thats even when ND has had "meh" seasons. Comes down to one simple reason: half the country tunes in to see the Irish win and the other half is tuning in just to see them lose. No other brand -- Ohio State, Alabama, USC, Texas, etc -- is more polarizing across all 50 states and drives such opinionated response. Whether thats good, bad, indifferent, justified, or unjustified doesn't matter. Notre Dame has always been a ratings goldmine.
Maybe in the 80's through 2000's, but that is not the case anymore. ND was 9th this year in average viewers per game. https://medium.com/run-it-back-with-...1-49ef4f315858 This past year, they were closer in weekly viewers with Navy, than they were with OSU, Alabama, and Michigan.

From 2015-2019, ND was 4th. https://medium.com/run-it-back-with-...s-efc03c689e50 ND is becoming more and more irrelevant because of being able to see all the national brands each week. When it was ND and maybe a couple other games, ND was exactly how you described them, but that hasn't been the case the last 10-15 years. When I was in high school in the early 2000's each week, I knew who ND played because of them being on NBC each week. With ESPN, FOX, FS1, BIG10 SEC, ACC, CBS, ABC, CBS Sports, all showing games and streaming games each week, you can watch your favorite team each week. You aren't just stuck with NBC ND game, ABC Big10 Game, CBS SEC game each week.

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Old 07-02-2022, 11:26 AM
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I believe Eagle is right re: Notre Dame TV ratings. Here's a site, if you're willing to scroll, that breaks down the highest-rated games of every week last season. https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/col...ll-tv-ratings/
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Old 07-02-2022, 11:42 AM
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Also re: Notre Dame and an academic fit, the Big Ten schools are no slouches (even better with the addition of UCLA and USC). The ACC has several strong institutions, but the Big Ten is solid on the undergraduate front too, and they're all huge research universities that drive millions and billions in R&D.
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Old 07-02-2022, 12:36 PM
Hyde Park Flyer Hyde Park Flyer is offline
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The Big10 is a great fit for some non-football/basketball (not necessarily Olympic) sports. The Big10 is now a better lacrosse conference than the ACC. Notre Dame already plays in the Big10 hockey conference. Notre Dame excels in both of those sports. USC and UCLA will add to the traditional Olympic sports depth. The Big10 has had national champions in many of the sports over the last 12 years, but there are definitely some sports where the Big10 lags behind other conferences (baseball, womenís track, etc). The Big10 does have the resources to dominate sports however.
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Old 07-03-2022, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
Maybe in the 80's through 2000's, but that is not the case anymore. ND was 9th this year in average viewers per game. https://medium.com/run-it-back-with-...1-49ef4f315858 This past year, they were closer in weekly viewers with Navy, than they were with OSU, Alabama, and Michigan.

From 2015-2019, ND was 4th. https://medium.com/run-it-back-with-...s-efc03c689e50 ND is becoming more and more irrelevant because of being able to see all the national brands each week. When it was ND and maybe a couple other games, ND was exactly how you described them, but that hasn't been the case the last 10-15 years. When I was in high school in the early 2000's each week, I knew who ND played because of them being on NBC each week. With ESPN, FOX, FS1, BIG10 SEC, ACC, CBS, ABC, CBS Sports, all showing games and streaming games each week, you can watch your favorite team each week. You aren't just stuck with NBC ND game, ABC Big10 Game, CBS SEC game each week.
I will concede those numbers but they lack quite a bit of context:

- Last year's ND schedule was garbage because the bellcow marquee TV opponents like FSU and USC were garbage. Normally those would be ratings gold but ND cant do anything about them stinking. UNC faded as usual and Stanford aint what they used to be. Even Wisconsin which is often 2nd best in the Big10 was up and down.

- Clemson was not on the schedule last year.

- Michigan has not been on the schedule since 2019 and thats one of the top TV games annually.

- The viewing numbers include streaming which is where ND takes another hit. NBC streams their home games but that means half the schedule is in the black hole. In the Big10 and SEC however 80% of the schedule is in their streaming wheelhouse whether they are playing at home or away because its league games. It also helps compound viewership.

- ND doesnt play in a conference championship game.

If you put ND on a rotating basis with OSU, Michigan, PSU, USC, and maybe even Nebraska it will pull mongo numbers - providing USC rights the ship and PSU picks it up a bit. Nebraska has the national support but not the competitiveness.

In any case the bottom line is if ND wants to go somewhere, they will land on their feet. Its just one more domino that will eventually trickle down to the Daytons of the world once the dust settles. It may take several moves to get there, but there's no stopping this Cabbage Bus to the stack of $80-100M annual paydays. But it may also affects the Kansas and Wake Forests of the world that have never been known for football and are largely unwanted for football but offer other things. Will those other things be enough however? Lawrence Kansas and Winston-Salem NC are not exactly NY/NJ like Rutgers. Football is going to steer everything....there's a reason why the Big10 is considering Oregon and Washington and not Kansas or Arizona. That should scare schools like Kansas and Arizona.
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Old 07-04-2022, 05:00 PM
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I think we have finally reached the point where there is an acknowledgement that unless you are one of about 20 may be 30 programs, your college football program is not championship viable. Iíll list them by current affiliation.
ACC
Clemson
Florida State
Miami
Virginia Tech
Big10
Iowa
Michigan
Ohio State
Penn State
Wisconsin
Big12
Baylor
Oklahoma
Texas
Pac12
Oregon
UCLA
USC
Washington
SEC
Alabama
Auburn
Florida
Georgia
LSU
Texas A&M
Independent
Notre Dame
I had to reach for about three or four of these. if Iím the ACC, Pac 12, and some of these conferences like the mountain west or American, to save my other sports, I would try to find someway to separate college football out and let a super league develop with these 23-ish schools. You will notice, some large blue bloods of basketball, duke, North Carolina, Kentucky, Kansas, Michigan State, Purdue, never mind teams in the big east or Gonzaga, are very interested in keeping the NCAA tournament as is. too much conference realignment will hurt them. Summary, treat football almost like what hockey used to be, and just let teams join all kinds of conferences for that. Yes youíre right steel for basketball will not be as big, but it may save you more money in the end, otherwise, you have nothing.
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Old 07-04-2022, 05:46 PM
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Ferd, the hard part about making these delineations is determining which on-the-rise football programs will devote enough resources to stay there (Cincy, Utah, Okla St, etc.), and which previous powers will bounce back from current struggles (Texas, UCLA, etc.). How would you have teams be promoted to, or relegated from, this football super league as their success waxes or wanes? I would suggest at the moment, Clemson's the only ACC school that fits the rest of your list. Based just on results, there are 6-7 programs that separated themselves the past five years (Bama, Ga, OSU, Clemson, Okla, ND). After that, there are a bunch of good teams (LSU, Michigan, Cincy, A&M, Oregon, Iowa, Wisconsin, Okla St, Utah, BYU ...... Florida, Kentucky, Michigan St, Minnesota, Baylor), and some recently struggling powers (Penn St, USC, Texas). Hard to know what that will look like in five years, as programs go through ups and downs, largely tied to good and bad coaching hires.
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Old 07-05-2022, 09:28 AM
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I would love for there to be European style soccer relegation for teams. Hell I would love to see that in the Atlantic 10! What I see stopping a model like that is teams will complain that if they are relegated to a second tier for two years, that will kill their recruiting/N I L. Also, as long as traditional cable is involved, you get into the issue of media markets. What does the Big Ten do when they realize Rutgers and Maryland, basically tied to TV markets New York and DC, will likely never be in that top level. Networks will not pay top level rates for those markets. Now, as we move toward streaming platforms, that all changes because market size doesnít matter.
Iíve listened to a couple influential voices save it maybe this in fact just creates football only conferences and then we figure out other things for Olympic sports. Thatís personally where I see us in 10 or 15 years. But what will the carnage be between now and then? Tangentially, where will college as an industry be in 10 or 15 years? Iím hearing lots of talk and quite frankly fear about whatís being referred to as the enrollment Cliff. People started having way fewer kids about 15 years ago. Colleges are depending on revenue targets from tuition and fees to stay viable. couple that with kids coming into college with their associates degrees because they now have that option in high schools to do both. No state institution is going to flat out reject peoples credit hours because the politicians who are so proud of putting these programs in place would go nuts. Private institutions like ours have a bit more leeway in that regard. All of that to say, buckle up because what we knew is college sports or even college, will not be the same in short order.
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Old 07-05-2022, 10:20 AM
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Ferd just touched on something that the admin surely knows: UD is in trouble not just with athletics. If you've sent a kid off to college in the last few years, you know what a fustercluck the whole admissions process is, and not just because of Covid. The top students in this country have data available to them so that they know who the top 20 schools are for the discipline they want to study. And the ease of applying to schools is so easy now, that it's not uncommon for a kid to apply to 20+ schools. In our time, we had little data available to us so if you were from Ohio or went to a Catholic HS in the midwest, Dayton was known and a good choice. You applied to maybe 3 regional schools and that was it. Many of you were probably top students in your day. You went to UD and thought little of it. Today? UD isn't even getting applications from those students or if you are from OH it's your ultra safety(yes, an uncomfortable truth). Our kid applied to 10 schools, including UD only as a courtesy to their parents. UD ended up being the cheapest option at the end of the day due to all the money UD threw at them(even cheaper than in-state schools). But they were never going to UD. UD was only on the list for them because Dad was an alumnus. This is a reality for UD and will only get worse in the future. The implications of this are many and not positive for UD. What's happening on the sports front is also happening on the academic front.
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Old 07-05-2022, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 301Lowes View Post
Ferd just touched on something that the admin surely knows: UD is in trouble not just with athletics. If you've sent a kid off to college in the last few years, you know what a fustercluck the whole admissions process is, and not just because of Covid. The top students in this country have data available to them so that they know who the top 20 schools are for the discipline they want to study. And the ease of applying to schools is so easy now, that it's not uncommon for a kid to apply to 20+ schools. In our time, we had little data available to us so if you were from Ohio or went to a Catholic HS in the midwest, Dayton was known and a good choice. You applied to maybe 3 regional schools and that was it. Many of you were probably top students in your day. You went to UD and thought little of it. Today? UD isn't even getting applications from those students or if you are from OH it's your ultra safety(yes, an uncomfortable truth). Our kid applied to 10 schools, including UD only as a courtesy to their parents. UD ended up being the cheapest option at the end of the day due to all the money UD threw at them(even cheaper than in-state schools). But they were never going to UD. UD was only on the list for them because Dad was an alumnus. This is a reality for UD and will only get worse in the future. The implications of this are many and not positive for UD. What's happening on the sports front is also happening on the academic front.
I would generally agree with your assessment, but I don't think UD is competing with the top 20 schools in any discipline - or necessarily wants to. they are aiming at that next level student that has upside potential and can't get into one of those "top 20" schools. UD typically checks all of the boxes as a "super regional" Masters Level school. The game changer IMHO is to legitimately have a $1Billion+ endowment and to legitimately be considered a national research institution. That type of success breeds more success and lets you compete with the big dogs. If you watch/listen closely to UD's marketing, they hint/skirt around those topics. Also, make no mistake, being in the BE would pay dividends towards those goals.
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Old 07-05-2022, 12:04 PM
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UDís endowment doesnít compete well even in Ohio. Case Western, Oberlin, and Denison are much smaller schools with much larger endowments. But, thatís fine. UD doesnít have to compete with the top schools. Itís not in financial distress. It continues to grow. Those are solid considerations.
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Old 07-05-2022, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyerferd View Post
I think we have finally reached the point where there is an acknowledgement that unless you are one of about 20 may be 30 programs, your college football program is not championship viable. I’ll list them by current affiliation.
ACC
Clemson
Florida State
Miami
Virginia Tech
Big10
Iowa
Michigan
Ohio State
Penn State
Wisconsin
Big12
Baylor
Oklahoma
Texas
Pac12
Oregon
UCLA
USC
Washington
SEC
Alabama
Auburn
Florida
Georgia
LSU
Texas A&M
Independent
Notre Dame
I had to reach for about three or four of these. if I’m the ACC, Pac 12, and some of these conferences like the mountain west or American, to save my other sports, I would try to find someway to separate college football out and let a super league develop with these 23-ish schools. You will notice, some large blue bloods of basketball, duke, North Carolina, Kentucky, Kansas, Michigan State, Purdue, never mind teams in the big east or Gonzaga, are very interested in keeping the NCAA tournament as is. too much conference realignment will hurt them. Summary, treat football almost like what hockey used to be, and just let teams join all kinds of conferences for that. Yes you’re right steel for basketball will not be as big, but it may save you more money in the end, otherwise, you have nothing.
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Va Tech?? Washington?? Nahh... Va Tech isnt even being mentioned in most of the proposed superconferences i've seen

Last edited by Class of 73 Alum; 07-05-2022 at 01:13 PM..
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Old 07-05-2022, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
UD’s endowment doesn’t compete well even in Ohio. Case Western, Oberlin, and Denison are much smaller schools with much larger endowments. But, that’s fine. UD doesn’t have to compete with the top schools. It’s not in financial distress. It continues to grow. Those are solid considerations.
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Actually, it competes quite well. The three schools you mentioned are the only private universities with larger endowments than UD. Xavier’s, by comparison, is less than a third the size of UD’s $610 million dollar endowment. If you throw in the state schools, only Ohio State has a larger endowment — $6.8 billion, which blows away every other school endowment in the state by … well, billions. Dayton’s endowment ranks fourth among Ohio private schools and fifth when you add in the state universities.

It doesn’t rank nearly as well in the A-10, maybe middle of the pack. Saint Louis, Fordham, Richmond, Davidson, UMass, Chicago Loyola and George Washington all have significantly larger endowments.

And if you’re curious, Dayton and Marquette would be roughly parallel in the Big East, ahead of Butler, Seton Hall, Providence and Xavier, but below everyone else. Again, middle of the pack.

Last edited by The Fly; 07-05-2022 at 02:08 PM..
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Old 07-05-2022, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
Gazoo, can you bookmark these posts and revisit a year from now re: the A10? I'm on record as saying that 2019 is an anomaly. 2020 will have 1) several more, at least 3, teams in the Top 100 2) half or more of the teams will be in top half of the NET/RPI and 3) we'll get 3 or more teams in the dance.

SLU, how did you do?
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Old 07-05-2022, 03:32 PM
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The Fly, I donít want to belabor the discussion about endowments, but UD does not compete well. Kenyon has less than a quarter of the students and only $200,000 less in endowment dollars. Denison has less than a third of the enrollment and over $300,000 more than UD. Youíre comparing UD to OWU, Wooster, and other much smaller schools. Itís fine to admit that it just doesnít compare favorably. Thereís no need to compare it to X. X is dangerously poor. Wittenberg and Wright State are in dangerous waters with sun $100,000 endowments. X is less than $200,000. At the end of the day, the endowments tend to reflect the difficulty to be admitted. The smaller, well heeled schools have tougher admissions processes. It is what it is, and thatís fine. UD is sound financially.
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Old 07-05-2022, 03:46 PM
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No, I’m really comparing them to peer schools like Xavier, Marquette, Seton Hall, Creighton and the like. The small private institutions you mentioned are in a completely different subset with completely different enrollment qualifications. Dayton isn’t academically on par with Case Western or Oberlin and never will be, as much as the administration would wish it. Their endowments reflect that in part. In other words, they’re not peer institutions. It’s one reason Harvard by far has the largest endowment of any university in the nation. Ohio State is not ITS peer.

The facts are as stated — UD trails only one school of size in the state of Ohio, and only three in the subset you referenced. We can agree, however, that UD is quite sound financially. Its endowment isn’t at the billion-dollar level, but for what it is, the school is in good shape. I hope it gets in even better shape in the years to come.

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Old 07-05-2022, 05:28 PM
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Agreed, Fly. Thanks for the clarification.
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Old 07-14-2022, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyerferd View Post
I would love for there to be European style soccer relegation for teams. Hell I would love to see that in the Atlantic 10! What I see stopping a model like that is teams will complain that if they are relegated to a second tier for two years, that will kill their recruiting/N I L. Also, as long as traditional cable is involved, you get into the issue of media markets. What does the Big Ten do when they realize Rutgers and Maryland, basically tied to TV markets New York and DC, will likely never be in that top level. Networks will not pay top level rates for those markets. Now, as we move toward streaming platforms, that all changes because market size doesn’t matter.
I’ve listened to a couple influential voices save it maybe this in fact just creates football only conferences and then we figure out other things for Olympic sports. That’s personally where I see us in 10 or 15 years. But what will the carnage be between now and then? Tangentially, where will college as an industry be in 10 or 15 years? I’m hearing lots of talk and quite frankly fear about what’s being referred to as the enrollment Cliff. People started having way fewer kids about 15 years ago. Colleges are depending on revenue targets from tuition and fees to stay viable. couple that with kids coming into college with their associates degrees because they now have that option in high schools to do both. No state institution is going to flat out reject peoples credit hours because the politicians who are so proud of putting these programs in place would go nuts. Private institutions like ours have a bit more leeway in that regard. All of that to say, buckle up because what we knew is college sports or even college, will not be the same in short order.
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I am not up to speed with where the higher education industry is right now, but college enrollment has been declining at about a 1% rate for the decade before covid started, and covid made things worse.

Additionally, more than a million students have walked away from college in the past two years, and there is supposed to be a decade-long decline in the number of high school graduates.

The value proposition of higher education is being questioned.

Some long overdue changes are needed in the higher education industry IMO.

Good link below IMO, the comments were good too.

https://www.realcleareducation.com/a...ng_110743.html:

More than two years since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, enrollment at American colleges and universities is continuing to plummet. College enrollment had been falling by about 1% each year for a decade before the pandemic, but COVID-19 accelerated that trend. In the past two years, more than 1 million students have walked away from higher education. Public universities, private colleges, community colleges, and graduate schools are all getting hit.

There’s no shortage of speculation as to where students are going. The pandemic and a robust job market have siphoned off more students in the short term. In the long term, experts are projecting a decade-long decline in high school graduation rates that will leave colleges with a shrinking pool of students to draw from.

A coalition of more than 70 selective private institutions developed their own tool to give prospective students a better understanding of the true cost of attending college. Twenty-eight states and regions have partnered with Credential Engine, which has created a common language and data set to help students sort through the maze of more than 1 million degrees, certificates, and other credentials and pick the one that will pay off for them.

Florida’s performance-based funding model for its public universities includes two workforce metrics – employment and median wages of graduates – that show if college degrees are paying off. The College Transparency Act, now pending in the Senate, would give the public even more data about college access, price, and outcomes.

Last edited by ud2; 07-14-2022 at 07:44 AM..
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Old 07-14-2022, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I am not up to speed with where the higher education industry is right now, but college enrollment has been declining at about a 1% rate for the decade before covid started, and covid made things worse.

Additionally, more than a million students have walked away from college in the past two years, and there is supposed to be a decade-long decline in the number of high school graduates.

The value proposition of higher education is being questioned.

Some long overdue changes are needed in the higher education industry IMO.

Good link below IMO, the comments were good too.

https://www.realcleareducation.com/a...ng_110743.html:

More than two years since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, enrollment at American colleges and universities is continuing to plummet. College enrollment had been falling by about 1% each year for a decade before the pandemic, but COVID-19 accelerated that trend. In the past two years, more than 1 million students have walked away from higher education. Public universities, private colleges, community colleges, and graduate schools are all getting hit.

Thereís no shortage of speculation as to where students are going. The pandemic and a robust job market have siphoned off more students in the short term. In the long term, experts are projecting a decade-long decline in high school graduation rates that will leave colleges with a shrinking pool of students to draw from.

A coalition of more than 70 selective private institutions developed their own tool to give prospective students a better understanding of the true cost of attending college. Twenty-eight states and regions have partnered with Credential Engine, which has created a common language and data set to help students sort through the maze of more than 1 million degrees, certificates, and other credentials and pick the one that will pay off for them.

Floridaís performance-based funding model for its public universities includes two workforce metrics Ė employment and median wages of graduates Ė that show if college degrees are paying off. The College Transparency Act, now pending in the Senate, would give the public even more data about college access, price, and outcomes.
This post, and the previous post it responded to, are both refreshing and insightful perspectives on the changes currently underway. I may not be around to see the final outcome of it all, but I appreciate both posts as background thoughts for what will likely be occurring over the next decade.
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