AP Poll

[Radar]

Flyers come in at #21
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[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Radar Flyers come in at #21 Posted via Mobile Device

Nova(16) and Oregon(21) both lost a game and fell out of top 25 allowing the Flyers(24) to move up 2 spots and Tennessee(11th) lost and dropped 11 spots to 22 allowing the Flyers to move up one more.

[Ready Action]

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/rankings
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[Medford]

Seth Davis has UD ranked the highest amongst voters at #14 on his ballot.


8 voters didn't list UD including Dicky V and Jon Rothstein.


Jimmy Watkins was also one of those 8 who didn't vote for UD this week, but what is strange is that he had UD at 24th in the preseason. Even more interesting, is that he moved both Nova and Oregon up 2 spots in his poll despite their losses including Oregon's drubbing vs UC Irvine. Neither Temple (home win vs Nova) nor UCI appear on his ballot.


Jablo has UD at 18th with SLU right behind them on his ballot. He does have UCI on his ballot at 25th. He has Toledo at 22nd as well, as they got some love from 3 different scribes.


I'm guessing when Gary Parrish does his "poll attack" segment that Mr Watkins gets "called out"


UD's most common placement was 21st by 15 media scribes. Near to clear a little bit of runway by winning @ UNLV and home next weekend to ensure they stay in the top 25 heading when they face Wisky.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[frisco flyer]

The UNLV game will be a real test—on the road and without one, if not two, of our best players. A win would almost certainly move us up and a loss would almost certainly move us out. I hope we compete well and win.

[Smitty10]

Flyers drop from 21 to 34th(based on votes outside the top 25) in AP. Drop from 23 to 30 in coaches poll.

A good showing in the Bahamas and I'm guessing they'll be back in next week.

[FlyerinChicago]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Flyers drop from 21 to 34th(based on votes outside the top 25) in AP. Drop from 23 to 30 in coaches poll. A good showing in the Bahamas and I'm guessing they'll be back in next week.

Found it very interesting that they have UNLV at 36. I thought I read that they were recently ranked around 300? Personally, I think UNLV will make noise this year and that will not be a bad loss.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by FlyerinChicago Found it very interesting that they have UNLV at 36. I thought I read that they were recently ranked around 300? Personally, I think UNLV will make noise this year and that will not be a bad loss.

Losing on the road to UNLV was never going to be a bad loss. What it was is a missed opportunity to pad our resume and get a good true road win. But when your best point guard misses the whole game, your 2nd best paint player misses the 2nd half and your best player can only be used as a decoy due to a rolled ankle, not much we could do about it.

All I know is we beat them pretty handily with 2 out of 3 of them in the first half and got pummeled without them in the 2nd half.

That loss will not be a "what could've been" albatross hanging over our heads like those 3 terrible losses at home last year. We have plenty of time to make up for it.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by FlyerinChicago Found it very interesting that they have UNLV at 36. I thought I read that they were recently ranked around 300? Personally, I think UNLV will make noise this year and that will not be a bad loss.

I don't know where you read that UNLV was ranked #300 recently. They are anywhere from #42-#113 in the Massey composite. They are top 20 in the rpi. Torvik has them finishing in the 80's. This may end up being a q1 loss. This is not a real bad loss.

https://masseyratings.com/cb/compare.htm

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by ud2 I don't know where you read that UNLV was ranked #300 recently. They are anywhere from #42-#113 in the Massey composite. They are top 20 in the rpi. Torvik has them finishing in the 80's. This may end up being a q1 loss. This is not a real bad loss. https://masseyratings.com/cb/compare.htm

I wouldn’t be surprised to see them end up outside the top 150 by year’s end. We didn’t play particularly well in the first half and were still up 12 at the half while short handed. Talked to several fans around us and none were expecting a very good year this year so we’ll see. I think a quad 1 loss is more wishful thinking than likely.

A 250 rated W and 4-0 would certainly be much better than 34th right now. Statistically, the extra road game has hurt us. This loss could hurt worse down the line as well. Early returns with limited data points show this strategy as a fail.
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[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer I wouldn’t be surprised to see them end up outside the top 150 by year’s end. We didn’t play particularly well in the first half and were still up 12 at the half while short handed. Talked to several fans around us and none were expecting a very good year this year so we’ll see. I think a quad 1 loss is more wishful thinking than likely. A 250 rated W and 4-0 would certainly be much better than 34th right now. Statistically, the extra road game has hurt us. This loss could hurt worse down the line as well. Early returns with limited data points show this strategy as a fail. Posted via Mobile Device

C'mon. We lost 3 home games to terrible teams last year and came within one less loss by us or a loss by Richmond in the A10 finals to getting in the dance. This loss doesn't compare to even one of the losses, not even close.

If this team comes even close to their expectations this season, they are in as no worse than an 8 seed. If the don't come close to expectations, then we got other problems. But it's obvious why we lost this game and that's called not having your 3 best players healthy and/or available for either the game or half the game.

This loss will only hurt us if we pile on a few bad losses on top of it.

Also, how can you say we didn't play well in the 1st half? We shot a respectable 45 percent from the field and dominated on the boards while holding them to 30 percent from the field. Maybe a few too many turnovers but still had a 10 point lead on them.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 C'mon. We lost 3 home games to terrible teams last year and came within one less loss by us or a loss by Richmond in the A10 finals to getting in the dance. This loss doesn't compare to even one of the losses, not even close. If this team comes even close to their expectations this season, they are in as no worse than an 8 seed. If the don't come close to expectations, then we got other problems. But it's obvious why we lost this game and that's called not having your 3 best players healthy and/or available for either the game or half the game. This loss will only hurt us if we pile on a few bad losses on top of it. Also, how can you say we didn't play well in the 1st half? We shot a respectable 45 percent from the field and dominated on the boards while holding them to 30 percent from the field. Maybe a few too many turnovers but still had a 10 point lead on them.

Read much? I never said it compared to any of last year’s losses. I said 4 things:

1.) We are ranked lower with the loss than if we had won against a 250 ranked buy game - not open for debate
2.) We didn’t play great and yet we were up by 12 (actually only 10)at half (UNLV doesn’t look to be a quality team) - for sure open for debate
— we had 12 TOs and just 4 assists
— we were 4/13 from 3
— shot great from inside the arc some of which was on OR outbacks

3.) This likely won’t be a good loss at year end as was trying to be conveyed in an earlier post and likely could be a bad loss (quad 3) by the end of the year
4.) 15-15 doesn’t automatically improve the non-conference resume. Regardless of the 15-15 or 16-14 the team has to execute and win the games they
should win.

I’m glad they played the game and I don’t think this kills them in any way. Wyoming looks to be less of a resume builder with a victory now with their key injury so this road loss will likely hurt more than this road win would have helped. I hope I’m wrong and this is a quad1 loss and not a quad3 loss.

Still just need to win and live up to potential and the team is fine.
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	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer Read much? I never said it compared to any of last year’s losses. I said 4 things: 1.) We are ranked lower with the loss than if we had won against a 250 ranked buy game - not open for debate 2.) We didn’t play great and yet we were up by 12 at half (UNLV doesn’t look to be a quality team) - for sure open for debate 3.) This likely won’t be a good loss at year end as was trying to be conveyed in an earlier post and likely could be a bad loss (quad 3) by the end of the year 4.) 15-15 doesn’t automatically improve the non-conference resume. Regardless of the 15-15 or 16-14 the team has to execute and win the games they should win. I’m glad they played the game and I don’t think this kills them in any way. Wyoming looks to be less of a resume builder with a victory now with their key injury so this road loss will likely hurt more than this road win would have helped. I hope I’m wrong and this is a quad1 loss and not a quad3 loss. Still just need to win and live up to potential and the team is fine. Posted via Mobile Device

If your point is that it's probably not going to be a Q1 loss, you're probably correct. But nobody said anything about a "good loss". There's no such thing. It's just not a bad loss and it won't be later in the year either. Now, if it happened in February or March it might be, but we never have to worry about that since they aren't in our conference.

Let me give you a definition what was immediately perceived as a bad loss. #4 Kansas losing to a floundering Dayton team on a neutral court. Doubt they thought much about that through March and April though.

As long as your goal is not to go undefeated, no single loss is that bad, especially one on the road against a program that's always been at least somewhat tough.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 If your point is that it's probably not going to be a Q1 loss, you're probably correct. But nobody said anything about a "good loss". There's no such thing. It's just not a bad loss and it won't be later in the year either. Now, if it happened in February or March it might be, but we never have to worry about that since they aren't in our conference. Let me give you a definition what was immediately perceived as a bad loss. #4 Kansas losing to a floundering Dayton team on a neutral court. Doubt they thought much about that through March and April though. As long as your goal is not to go undefeated, no single loss is that bad, especially one on the road against a program that's always been at least somewhat tough.

Again I didn’t say it was an immediate bad loss - just that it could easily end up one by definition (quad3) by the end of the year.

Other than that, I don’t disagree with any of what you have written here. More than anything I wanted a refund and was building my case for it in regard to the post from the 15-15 champion who I was responding to.

For 3 years now we’ve been told by that the 16-14 model has hurt UD and kept them out of the tourney. It was all but promised that the 15-15 model would improve our chances.

Now when we lose the 15th non-home game the spin comes that it could even be a good loss. All along the way the fact that UD teams regularly underperformed in the non-conference was ignored and the blame instead put on the 16-14 model.

I don’t think this year’s team has it in their DNA to underperform (barring injuries) so to me the loss is inconsequential and very understandable given injuries before and during the game. I do think this was the wrong year to make the switch. With the best holiday field in years, likely the strongest A10 since Butler left, and 2 other high quality non-home opponents, the opportunity for double digit losses without any real bad losses is higher than other years.

There is a real possible situation though if this team does have other stumbles and if UNLV ends up in the mid 100s that this game instead of a win against a mid 200 could be a significant contributing piece in missing the dance.
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[FlyerinChicago]

Originally Posted by ud2 I don't know where you read that UNLV was ranked #300 recently. They are anywhere from #42-#113 in the Massey composite. They are top 20 in the rpi. Torvik has them finishing in the 80's. This may end up being a q1 loss. This is not a real bad loss. https://masseyratings.com/cb/compare.htm

Could have sworn I saw #300 Torvik rating prior or right after the game.
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[steverino015]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer Read much? I never said it compared to any of last year’s losses. I said 4 things: 1.) We are ranked lower with the loss than if we had won against a 250 ranked buy game - not open for debate 2.) We didn’t play great and yet we were up by 12 (actually only 10)at half (UNLV doesn’t look to be a quality team) - for sure open for debate — we had 12 TOs and just 4 assists — we were 4/13 from 3 — shot great from inside the arc some of which was on OR outbacks 3.) This likely won’t be a good loss at year end as was trying to be conveyed in an earlier post and likely could be a bad loss (quad 3) by the end of the year 4.) 15-15 doesn’t automatically improve the non-conference resume. Regardless of the 15-15 or 16-14 the team has to execute and win the games they should win. I’m glad they played the game and I don’t think this kills them in any way. Wyoming looks to be less of a resume builder with a victory now with their key injury so this road loss will likely hurt more than this road win would have helped. I hope I’m wrong and this is a quad1 loss and not a quad3 loss. Still just need to win and live up to potential and the team is fine. Posted via Mobile Device

wait... Wyoming has a key injury?
what have we been dealing with the entire season....

[Runnin' Rebel]

Flyers are #31 in Andy Katz Power 36...

https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball...6-after-week-2

[jack72]

That is about right. Maybe with everyone back and in game shape we can get back to Top25.
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[ud2]

Originally Posted by FlyerinChicago Could have sworn I saw #300 Torvik rating prior or right after the game. Posted via Mobile Device

I don't know what you are referring to. UNLV has never been close to being #300 on Torvik so far this year.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer Again I didn’t say it was an immediate bad loss - just that it could easily end up one by definition (quad3) by the end of the year. Other than that, I don’t disagree with any of what you have written here. More than anything I wanted a refund and was building my case for it in regard to the post from the 15-15 champion who I was responding to. For 3 years now we’ve been told by that the 16-14 model has hurt UD and kept them out of the tourney. It was all but promised that the 15-15 model would improve our chances. Now when we lose the 15th non-home game the spin comes that it could even be a good loss. All along the way the fact that UD teams regularly underperformed in the non-conference was ignored and the blame instead put on the 16-14 model. I don’t think this year’s team has it in their DNA to underperform (barring injuries) so to me the loss is inconsequential and very understandable given injuries before and during the game. I do think this was the wrong year to make the switch. With the best holiday field in years, likely the strongest A10 since Butler left, and 2 other high quality non-home opponents, the opportunity for double digit losses without any real bad losses is higher than other years. There is a real possible situation though if this team does have other stumbles and if UNLV ends up in the mid 100s that this game instead of a win against a mid 200 could be a significant contributing piece in missing the dance. Posted via Mobile Device

If we win the UNLV game, then Torvik has us as the first 9 seed. Right now, with the UNLV loss, we are 6 from the cut line. So the UNLV loss dropped our projection 9 spots.

If we drop the UNLV game and play #250 Northern Arizona at UD, we are still 6 from the cut line. Playing #250 does nothing for us.

I did say that the 15/15 works only if we win the extra game. And it is a crap shoot with scheduling in terms of where that 15th away/neutral opponent ends up being rated.

We still have plenty of games to build our resume. The UNLV loss is not determinative of where we end up.

We are never going to get anywhere IMO sticking with the 16/14 model. The A10 is not strong enough. We have tried the 16/14 and 17/14 and 18/13 models for forever. We never got anywhere. We maxed out at a 7 seed under AM except for Grant's 3rd year. Grant's 3rd year is looking like a total outlier right now if we end up as an 11 seed like Torvik is saying, we will see.

We have to be able to win a game like the one at UNLV if we are ever going to advance as a program. We had a good halftime lead, but we couldn't overcome 2nd half injuries.

The 15/15 model is about having higher expectations than just barely making the ncaat field.

Quit accepting the bare minimum, raise your expectations.

[ud2]

And the other thing the 15/15 model does is give you another opportunity for a good win. There is not the immense pressure to perform well in these exempt 3 game tourneys. In the past, if we didn't perform well in these exempt tourneys, we had dug ourselves a hole that required a lot of work to get out of. We had an opportunity to pad our resume at UNLV and give ourselves a cushion/establish some distance from the cut line, but we didn't get it done.

[ud2]

And Marysville, UNLV is projected to be #89, nobody is projecting them to be in the 200's. Winning at #89 is a nice, solid, resume-building, q2 win.

If they end up in the 200's, then this will be a real bad loss that we had no business losing.

It is really early, these projections can all totally change. We can still get a 5 or 6 seed if we perform well.

[ud2]

And I just noticed that Torvik now is projecting UNLV to be #78. If that holds, then this is almost a q1 loss. That would have been a real good win.

Kenpom says:

https://kenpom.com/blog/tiers-of-joy/:

Beating the 90th-ranked team on the road is about as difficult as beating the 50th-best team on a neutral floor, which is roughly as difficult as beating the 20th-best team on one’s home floor.


By that, this would have been the same as beating #38 on a neutral court or #8 at home.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by ud2 And the other thing the 15/15 model does is give you another opportunity for a good win. There is not the immense pressure to perform well in these exempt 3 game tourneys. In the past, if we didn't perform well in these exempt tourneys, we had dug ourselves a hole that required a lot of work to get out of. We had an opportunity to pad our resume at UNLV and give ourselves a cushion/establish some distance from the cut line, but we didn't get it done.

It will not be a good win if it ends up as a quad3. The computer doesn’t care about the name on the front of the uniform. Last year proved the 16/14 was more than fine with 3 horrible home losses and a bad loss at Lasalle and were still in until the final regular season game. Last year came down to not performing just like the loss at UNLV did.

There is nothing magical about 15/15 that makes it better unless the team wins. We dropped 13 spots with the loss. No way we are out the top 25 right now if we had beaten a 250 school.

You’ve been blaming 16/14 for years now but give a pass to 15/15 because they lost. “It only works if they won the game”. Well that’s the exact same thing we’ve been saying for years about 16/14. The last 20 seasons 16/14 most years has allowed for nearly any seed if the team performs or outperforms expectations. It provides nothing if they lay too many eggs.

You Can’t have it both ways. The importance of no worse than 2-1 this week has been raised because of the loss last Tuesday and will be amplified by year’s end if it becomes a quad3 loss.

I’m just don’t get the line of thinking that says we can’t perform as expected with an ‘easier’ schedule so the solution is to make the schedule even tougher? Same argument that people who think the BE automatically improves UD’s gate. The so called weak A10 that we can’t dominate is holding us back but somehow that ancient history once the night in and out competition improves dramatically?
Posted via Mobile Device

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer I’m just don’t get the line of thinking that says we can’t perform as expected with an ‘easier’ schedule so the solution is to make the schedule even tougher? Same argument that people who think the BE automatically improves UD’s gate. The so called weak A10 that we can’t dominate is holding us back but somehow that ancient history once the night in and out competition improves dramatically? Posted via Mobile Device

Because we have done it your way for forever, and it didn't work. Try a new approach. I definitely think there is a psychological component to these ooc games. We get up for an away game at UNLV, we had that game almost in the bag at halftime, we don't get up for Northern Arizona at home. We can win these tougher games. I think a tougher schedule changes the whole mindset of the program. It says we are serious and want to be a name brand program that makes noise in March year after year.

Nobody gives two sh*ts about beating Northern Arizona at home, that is a total waste.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by ud2 Because we have done it your way for forever, and it didn't work. Try a new approach. I definitely think there is a psychological component to these ooc games. We get up for an away game at UNLV, we had that game almost in the bag at halftime, we don't get up for Northern Arizona at home. We can win these tougher games. I think a tougher schedule changes the whole mindset of the program. It says we are serious and want to be a name brand program that makes noise in March year after year. Nobody gives two sh*ts about beating Northern Arizona at home, that is a total waste.

13k+ seem to care every home game.

Confusing a fan’s desire for better games against prominent names with expected improved results are 2 different things. It’s not my way it’s UD’s way and the ooc schedule has been great most of the past 20 years from the perspective of getting in to the tourney which is most important.

I’d prefer they address the problem with under achieving rather than taking the ‘well we gotta do something different’, something harder approach and then expect that it works just because it’s different. Didn’t work this year.
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[ud2]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer 13k+ seem to care every home game. Confusing a fan’s desire for better games against prominent names with expected improved results are 2 different things.

The 13k are the only ones who care. The selection committee couldn't care less. The talking heads on tv couldn't care less. The people that vote in the AP poll and the coaches poll couldn't care less. Anybody that matters couldn't care less about beating Northern Arizona at UD.

No, I don't think they are two different things, to a degree they are tied together. You play to the level of your competition at times. You don't get better by playing the little sisters of the poor at UD. You get better by playing UNLV on the road.

[UDGutter2]

Apparently, all UD has to say they want a game, and the better opponents just line up, and then UD picks out the schedule they want, then everyone else finalizes their schedule.

I always thought it was more work than that. I was under the impression the other teams could say "no" to UD. Now that I know better, I too want a better schedule.

[jack72]

From ESPN: "Three teams with questions

Dayton Flyers: The Flyers, who were in plenty of preseason top 25s, are now just 3-4 after three straight losses and an eighth-place finish at the Battle 4 Atlantis. None of the losses was particularly bad on paper, but there's now just a very narrow path for Dayton to get into the NCAA tournament hunt without a remarkable turnaround in league play."

[Flyer68]

Get healthy and fix what went wrong to get back on track so can win the A-10 conference and A-10 tournament.

Also I noted that there are no other A-10 teams mentioned in the polls so maybe the A-10 is not very strong this year.

[NJFlyr71]

Originally Posted by flyer68 get healthy and fix what went wrong to get back on track so can win the a-10 conference and a-10 tournament. Also i noted that there are no other a-10 teams mentioned in the polls so maybe the a-10 is not very strong this year.

HOPE is not a plan

[shocka43]

Our schedule doesn't hold us back. Winning games does.

You've got this year and next to impress the BE. If not, that ship will sail again. If Neil and AG don't see to it this happens, the whales will show them the door. 24-25 may give you another opportunity.

The money in the room has the decision making power.

[UD62]

I really wonder how much power Neil has to "make it happen". Agree that two good seasons helps, but with the politics involved, it is a crap shoot at best.

[FlyerinChicago]

Originally Posted by shocka43 Our schedule doesn't hold us back. Winning games does. You've got this year and next to impress the BE. If not, that ship will sail again. If Neil and AG don't see to it this happens, the whales will show them the door. 24-25 may give you another opportunity. The money in the room has the decision making power.

This was really our year to shine and impress the BE. Out of the gate as a top 25 team, lots of buzz and perceived depth and talent. That ship has likely sailed, who knows what this team even looks like next year. Crazier things have happened and we haven't a clue what's ahead record-wise, I'm just hoping St. Louis doesn't go on a run as they are likely to take our spot or at least 1 of 2 if it's two teams to the BE.

[Flyers98]

Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 HOPE is not a plan

Agreed...but usually when people say something like that they then follow it with an idea or a plan, that is the difference between criticism and cynicism.

I mean if there is not a plan, I will take hope over nothing. I think the obvious plan now is to roll with what we have because you aren't allowed to do much else.

Going forward I hope the coaching staff will give a long hard look at injury history before they sign kids. It is a crap shoot, I mean Chase Johnson and Mali could have gone 4 years and never been injured but the fact that we have been bitten hard and basically "wasted" scholarships on highly touted kids we knew had some injury history (if I recall correctly Mali was hurt his senior year of high school, I know someone will correct me if that is wrong). I am sorry to put it that way and nothing against the players but that is reality. Somebody else mentioned it in this or another thread but there are people in the world who are amazing athletes but their bodies just can't handle the rigors, (Greg Oden says hello).

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by FlyerinChicago This was really our year to shine and impress the BE. Out of the gate as a top 25 team, lots of buzz and perceived depth and talent. That ship has likely sailed, who knows what this team even looks like next year. Crazier things have happened and we haven't a clue what's ahead record-wise, I'm just hoping St. Louis doesn't go on a run as they are likely to take our spot or at least 1 of 2 if it's two teams to the BE.

If decision makers in the BE were as sure UD getting an invite would instantly improve their results and remove the decades of underachieving then last year, this year, or next year results wouldn’t impact their decision a bit. Fans on here thinking BE invite will remove the underachieving are the most illogical, delusional optimists on here.

It’s comical that the ones comping the loudest about the coach and results are the ones who pin their hopes on making the ncaa even harder by proposing a BE invite as the best solution. It makes zero logical sense to expect a perennial underachiever to over achieve under harder circumstances in a power conference.

We already pinned our hopes on a must have conference invite and lived thru that embarrassment worse for the wear for a decade. Getting kicked out of another conference is not a good recruiting tool.

The BE is not mandatory or even needed to turn the ship around. Winning consistently in the A10 will provide all that is needed to become a perennial NCAA participant. Win there first or expect worse in the BE. It hasn’t improved things for X or Georgetown, or Butler or DePaul or Marquette but yeah it will solve all UD’s shortcomings.

How many of the current BE teams have improved their tourney results/resumes or meet the expectations of 4/5 years in tourney with sweet 16s and elite 8s?
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[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer If decision makers in the BE were as sure UD getting an invite would instantly improve their results and remove the decades of underachieving then last year, this year, or next year results wouldn’t impact their decision a bit. Fans on here thinking BE invite will remove the underachieving are the most illogical, delusional optimists on here. It’s comical that the ones comping the loudest about the coach and results are the ones who pin their hopes on making the ncaa even harder by proposing a BE invite as the best solution. It makes zero logical sense to expect a perennial underachiever to over achieve under harder circumstances in a power conference. We already pinned our hopes on a must have conference invite and lived thru that embarrassment worse for the wear for a decade. Getting kicked out of another conference is not a good recruiting tool. The BE is not mandatory or even needed to turn the ship around. Winning consistently in the A10 will provide all that is needed to become a perennial NCAA participant. Win there first or expect worse in the BE. It hasn’t improved things for X or Georgetown, or Butler or DePaul or Marquette but yeah it will solve all UD’s shortcomings. How many of the current BE teams have improved their tourney results/resumes or meet the expectations of 4/5 years in tourney with sweet 16s and elite 8s? Posted via Mobile Device

That's all nice and all, and would make sense in a college basketball world where the landscape is not changing to favor the top conferences even more.

If Dayton remains in the A10, you can bet we become a stepping stone for some top recruits who will look to transfer after freshman or sophomore years and landing spots for those in lesser conferences that want to move up in their junior and senior seasons. Also, a landing spot for those that went to the top schools thinking they would get more playing time but didn't and now have to lower their expectations because they weren't as good as they thought they were.

If the Flyers remain in the A10, Dayton will more and more look like a mid-major rather than high mid-major that can compete with the big boys. The program will slip. Heck, the A10 has been slipping since Xavier, Butler and Temple defected and we've seen our at-large bids slipping down to one. Zero at-larges are the next step.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Zero at-larges are the next step.

We might already be there this year. Only SLU is in position for an at large bid right now, barely, they are the 3rd to last team in, nobody else is even close to being an at large team. If SLU slips, the A10T auto bid might be the only bid the conference earns this year.

VCU...nope
Loyola...nope
Davidson...nope

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 That's all nice and all, and would make sense in a college basketball world where the landscape is not changing to favor the top conferences even more. If Dayton remains in the A10, you can bet we become a stepping stone for some top recruits who will look to transfer after freshman or sophomore years and landing spots for those in lesser conferences that want to move up in their junior and senior seasons. Also, a landing spot for those that went to the top schools thinking they would get more playing time but didn't and now have to lower their expectations because they weren't as good as they thought they were. If the Flyers remain in the A10, Dayton will more and more look like a mid-major rather than high mid-major that can compete with the big boys. The program will slip. Heck, the A10 has been slipping since Xavier, Butler and Temple defected and we've seen our at-large bids slipping down to one. Zero at-larges are the next step.

Until such time in this new environment that UD can no longer put a non-conference schedule together like they have for the past 20 years, UD can continue to position themselves to gain an at large bid if they fail to win the auto-bid. If they don’t win enough to build their own resume it’s on them not the league and there is no reason to think they’d build it in the BE if they fail in the A10.

The conference would have to drop a long way from where it is to have it be a one-bid only league before the season even starts.
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[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer Until such time in this new environment that UD can no longer put a non-conference schedule together like they have for the past 20 years, UD can continue to position themselves to gain an at large bid if they fail to win the auto-bid. If they don’t win enough to build their own resume it’s on them not the league and there is no reason to think they’d build it in the BE if they fail in the A10. The conference would have to drop a long way from where it is to have it be a one-bid only league before the season even starts. Posted via Mobile Device

As you continually watch the A10 fall down the list from at one time 7 to double digits in conference rankings and you think this doesn't slowly erode the Flyers' chances of doing that. You sure live in a fantasy world. There's a saying "it's never too late". That saying is pure BS because in some circumstances it is. Just like in the 70s when the Flyers refused to join a conference.

I cannot believe anybody who's a Flyers fan would think they're better off in the A10 now and the near future. It's eroding and it won't stop. And if UD doesn't make it to the Big East or a better conference put together between now and a few years from now, they will become Miami of Ohio and then worse.

So again, you're saying wait until UD drops down to Miami of Ohio level and at that time join a better conference. SMH, so ridiculous. That's like saying "I'll continue to screw off at work until the boss fires me then I'll give it 100 percent effort."

[jack72]

The A10 is currently 11th in the RPI, one back of the PAC12.
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[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 As you continually watch the A10 fall down the list from at one time 7 to double digits in conference rankings and you think this doesn't slowly erode the Flyers' chances of doing that. You sure live in a fantasy world. There's a saying "it's never too late". That saying is pure BS because in some circumstances it is. Just like in the 70s when the Flyers refused to join a conference. I cannot believe anybody who's a Flyers fan would think they're better off in the A10 now and the near future. It's eroding and it won't stop. And if UD doesn't make it to the Big East or a better conference put together between now and a few years from now, they will become Miami of Ohio and then worse. So again, you're saying wait until UD drops down to Miami of Ohio level and at that time join a better conference. SMH, so ridiculous. That's like saying "I'll continue to screw off at work until the boss fires me then I'll give it 100 percent effort."

Yeah that’s exactly what I said. Not. How about discussing what is actually said.

So just how besides success on the court is UD supposed to pull off this task of making a conference want us that currently doesn’t? Why stop with the BE? Let’s shoot for the Big10 where 11 teams got in last year? We could probably be a 4 seed or better 3/4 years and never miss the tourney.

Your argument seems to assume

1.) The A10 can do nothing to stop the slow progression downward by adding other quality teams - oh wait they just did that - let’s give it more than 7 games before deeming it impossible huh?

2.) The BE is the only option outside the A10 - how about current 8-10?

3.). Being in the BE only improves with no downside both of which the MCC experiment showed to be not true at least then so possibly now too?

You continue to avoid the question of how playing much harder competition is going to help a decades long underachieving team suddenly achieve or overachieve? Also, why is a DePaul a constant failure and Butler, X and Marquette (all teams with better resumes than UD) have all had less success since joining the BE?

I don’t prescribe to the ‘well we gotta do something, even if it’s galaxitcally stupid’ philosophy. Your arguments are way too full of circular reasoning. Stating an unproven or unprovable opinion and then using it as fact to support your argument and then repeating it a lot doesn’t make it any more than your opinion.
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[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by jack72 The A10 is currently 11th in the RPI, one back of the PAC12. Posted via Mobile Device

Site I looked at has A10 at 10 and the MAC at 18. I can’t see why someone would use the MAC (and an irrelevant team for over a decade in that conference) to make an argument unless he knew his argument held no water.

Great News - By the smitty standard (I think it’s spelled wrong) A10 must be almost as good as the Big10 because they are just 8 spots ahead of us.
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[UD62]

We have lost three in a row, negativity is the order of the day.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer Site I looked at has A10 at 10 and the MAC at 18. I can’t see why someone would use the MAC (and an irrelevant team for over a decade in that conference) to make an argument unless he knew his argument held no water. Great News - By the smitty standard (I think it’s spelled wrong) A10 must be almost as good as the Big10 because they are just 8 spots ahead of us. Posted via Mobile Device

Why do you not see it. The A10 is obviously trending down smartass. The Big Ten is obviously trending up with additions of UCLA and USC and others I'm sure.

The Flyers only chance to remain relevant when this all shakes out is to be somewhere else. Man, it's so obvious, but you want to see if the sinking ship sinks before action is taken. I actually thought you were smarter than this, obviously you're not.

[UDEE79]

We need to be in a better conference also we need to be good enough to deserve to be in a better conference.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Why do you not see it. The A10 is obviously trending down smartass. The Big Ten is obviously trending up with additions of UCLA and USC and others I'm sure. The Flyers only chance to remain relevant when this all shakes out is to be somewhere else. Man, it's so obvious, but you want to see if the sinking ship sinks before action is taken. I actually thought you were smarter than this, obviously you're not.

Either side of this fence this perennial underachieving by UD is going to keep them where there at.

And in that case, just go ahead and call the arena improvements and everything else nothing more than stickers and paint to think we are versus actually being something.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Why do you not see it. The A10 is obviously trending down smartass. The Big Ten is obviously trending up with additions of UCLA and USC and others I'm sure. The Flyers only chance to remain relevant when this all shakes out is to be somewhere else. Man, it's so obvious, but you want to see if the sinking ship sinks before action is taken. I actually thought you were smarter than this, obviously you're not.

Both sides of this are technically correct. Marysville is correct in that the A10 could devolve into being like the WCC, and we would still be ok in that weaker conference. The bottom line is that we need to perform better regardless of what league we are in. The league isn't what matters, our performance is what matters. If we become like Gonzaga in the WCC, we will be ok.