AG

[TX Flyer]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 And every OTHER college has the same exact Covid “Freshman” exemption. I’m not going to waste my time providing facts you can easily google. This talking point was repeatedly expressed by announcers in virtually every broadcast game last year. Posted via Mobile Device

So you’re agreeing with me? The players are not true sophomores

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by TX Flyer So you’re agreeing with me? The players are not true sophomores

They are no different in definition to any other team in the nations “sophomores”- here again, despite that fact, they were still considered one of the youngest teams, it not the youngest in the nation relative to every other school. Mail and DaRon were true freshman. Camara- third year of division 1, but first year with Dayton. Elvis: second year division 1 last year, first year with Dayton.
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[TX Flyer]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 They are no different in definition to any other team in the nations “sophomores”- here again, despite that fact, they were still considered one of the youngest teams, it not the youngest in the nation relative to every other school. Mail and DaRon were true freshman. Camara- third year of division 1, but first year with Dayton. Elvis: second year division 1 last year, first year with Dayton. Posted via Mobile Device

Not every school considered their players to be freshman last year. I googled and can’t find the stats so still waiting for you to provide them.

When I look at rosters for other schools I see 4th year players listed as seniors, not juniors. This is an issue if Kenpom and other sites get their data from the schools and they provide different ways of classifying players.

“ For purposes of KenPom’s calculation, a freshman has zero years of experience, a sophomore has one year of experience, etc.”

[Marysville Flyer]

[QUOTE=TX Flyer;709511]When was the last time we made the final four? In my lifetime I’ve only seen an E8[/

Never said make the final four. I clearly stated final four caliber team which we have had once in the AG tenure at season’s end so far.

If you want to remember the good ole underachieving days of AM’s last 3 years feel free to do so. I want to see teams that don’t need home games or upsets to advance. To each their own.
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[TX Flyer]

[QUOTE=Marysville Flyer;709517]

Originally Posted by TX Flyer When was the last time we made the final four? In my lifetime I’ve only seen an E8[/ Never said make the final four. I clearly stated final four caliber team which we have had once in the AG tenure at season’s end so far. If you want to remember the good ole underachieving days of AM’s last 3 years feel free to do so. I want to see teams that don’t need home games or upsets to advance. To each their own. Posted via Mobile Device

If we made the FF I could somewhat buy your argument. Just having a FF caliber team and not making it would be to much underachieving to me

[longtimefan67]

I googled and Kenpom has the data if you’re willing to pay for a subscription- i’m not. But I’ll let Figgie chime in on this debate with his stats if he’s willing . I’m pretty certain that Dayton was either first or second youngest last year depending on which broadcasting team was providing the talking point (Arizona was the other team next to Dayton last year in terms of age).
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[longtimefan67]

For the record- last Dayton team to make the final four was 1966-67 team that lost to UCLA in the finals.
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[zmz723]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer Your standard is not the only standard. I’m sure there are plenty of fans that would prefer 1 final four caliber team along with 1 other bid every 5 years over what AM did here. I

2019-2020 was a once in a lifetime team (thanks Obi), not a 1 out of every 5 year team.
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[zmz723]

[QUOTE=Marysville Flyer;709517]

Originally Posted by TX Flyer When was the last time we made the final four? In my lifetime I’ve only seen an E8[/ Never said make the final four. I clearly stated final four caliber team which we have had once in the AG tenure at season’s end so far. If you want to remember the good ole underachieving days of AM’s last 3 years feel free to do so. I want to see teams that don’t need home games or upsets to advance. To each their own.

What was underachieving about AM’s last 3 years? He won 2 NCAA tourney games after kicking off 2 starting players and giving a walk on major minutes. Imagine the excuses here if the same thing happened to AG and they missed the NCAAs like he usually does. That was one of the most impressive coaching jobs I’ve ever seen.
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[OSU Flyer]

If back to back NCAA appearances is underachieving then what is this
Posted via Mobile Device

[Marysville Flyer]

[QUOTE=zmz723;709524]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer What was underachieving about AM’s last 3 years? He won 2 NCAA tourney games after kicking off 2 starting players and giving a walk on major minutes. Imagine the excuses here if the same thing happened to AG and they missed the NCAAs like he usually does. That was one of the most impressive coaching jobs I’ve ever seen. Posted via Mobile Device

Juniors got drilled in round 1. Seniors should have made second weekend and we’re one and done. Both years as better seed. Sophomores were the last team in and only advanced by playing at home after previous year’s elite 8. They had no chance to make any real noise in the tourney but they were the least underachieving of the 3.

Our ‘opponents were under seeded’ excuses were rampant both years. Oh and players kicked off the team is also an excuse. Who recruited them? AG doesn’t get this grace from his detractors not even for injuries.
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[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer If back to back NCAA appearances is underachieving then what is this Posted via Mobile Device

So you were happy with 2 one and done by battle tested upperclass teams with single digit seeds ?
Posted via Mobile Device

[zmz723]

Dissing the teams that actually made the NCAA tourney to prop up the coach that rarely makes the NCAA tourney is bizarre. It only helps my theory that many people on this board prefer NIT appearances with a coach who is a “good guy”.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by zmz723 Dissing the teams that actually made the NCAA tourney to prop up the coach that rarely makes the NCAA tourney is bizarre Posted via Mobile Device

I’m stating actual facts about AM’s teams to people who are longing for those good ole days of success. It in no way is used to condemn or commend AG. Just correcting the inaccurate revisionist history.
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[zmz723]

Can you answer OSU Flyer’s question? If back to back NCAA appearances (and apparently AMs sophomore class disappointed?) is underachieving, then what is this? Obi’s first year absolutely had plenty of talent to make the tournament, same with 2020-2021.
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[OSU Flyer]

I would be happy to just make the tournament again at this rate.
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[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by zmz723 Can you answer OSU Flyer’s question? If back to back NCAA appearances (and apparently AMs sophomore class disappointed?) is underachieving, then what is this? Obi’s first year absolutely had plenty of talent to make the tournament, same with 2020-2021. Posted via Mobile Device

That’s the entire point. What you appear to see as success - 2 straight years of 1 and done with guys that played together for 4 years and made an elite 8 - others (maybe only me) saw as underachieving and a disappointment. Oh and then AM left for greener pastures with little in the cupboard to allow a return trip.

I’d prefer 1 team every 4-5 years that could actually win the whole thing over what AM did. Getting in and failing to win means little to me.
Posted via Mobile Device

[OSU Flyer]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer That’s the entire point. What you appear to see as success - 2 straight years of 1 and done with guys that played together for 4 years and made an elite 8 - others (maybe only me) saw as underachieving and a disappointment. Oh and then AM left for greener pastures with little in the cupboard to allow a return trip. I’d prefer 1 team every 4-5 years that could actually win the whole thing over what AM did. Getting in and failing to win means little to me. Posted via Mobile Device

When is another team that can win the whole thing coming down the pike?
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[UD62]

Originally Posted by TX Flyer When was the last time we made the final four? In my lifetime I’ve only seen an E8

When we made the FF in '67, it took three nailbiters wins to get there, sort of like the win at tOSU a few years back. Not saying we didn't deserve to be there but a bit of good karma sure helped. Was there for the FF in Louisville, hammered UNC, UCLA a completely different story. Probably a once in a lifetime experience as at age 83 the prospects for a repeat soon are remote.

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer That’s the entire point. What you appear to see as success - 2 straight years of 1 and done with guys that played together for 4 years and made an elite 8 - others (maybe only me) saw as underachieving and a disappointment. Oh and then AM left for greener pastures with little in the cupboard to allow a return trip. I’d prefer 1 team every 4-5 years that could actually win the whole thing over what AM did. Getting in and failing to win means little to me. Posted via Mobile Device

AM won 5 games in the NCAA tournament.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by zmz723 2019-2020 was a once in a lifetime team (thanks Obi), not a 1 out of every 5 year team. Posted via Mobile Device

You don't know that because you can't predict the next 5 years

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 You don't know that because you can't predict the next 5 years

We are already 3 seasons from that team. That is not happening again in the next 2 unless something major changes.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 4 NCAA appearances in 6 years and he leaves. One would be NCAA appearance going on 6 years and stays forever. Uh yeah, if a guy is going to be your coach for life, he should be getting us there at least 50 percent of the time. 50 percent, you know, a number less than 67 percent that Archie gave us. Longevity is usually a reward for extreme success, not a reward for willing to stay and have minimal success.

If coach AG was fired after this year (let's assume you AM loving morons got your way and AG was fired...) and a coach suddenly said he was interested in the job at Dayton, but his resume for his first 8 years of coaching looked like this, would you want to hire him?

11–14
20–8
19–9
14–11
9–17
17–13
10-17
11–17

111-106

Please chime in...

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by m21eagle45 We are already 3 seasons from that team. That is not happening again in the next 2 unless something major changes.

This is only his 6th year, if a number 1 projected seed and 29-2 record happened once in his first 5 years, that mean theoretically, he's got this year and 4 more after to duplicate....nice math wizards we have on this board...

[NJFlyr71]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer That’s the entire point. What you appear to see as success - 2 straight years of 1 and done with guys that played together for 4 years and made an elite 8 - others (maybe only me) saw as underachieving and a disappointment. Oh and then AM left for greener pastures with little in the cupboard to allow a return trip. I’d prefer 1 team every 4-5 years that could actually win the whole thing over what AM did. Getting in and failing to win means little to me. Posted via Mobile Device

Win the whole thing? Good god when has a Dayton team come that close? WAAAAY back in Donoher era. Not once every 4-5 years but more like ... well so far back it becomes insignificant. An E8 run? Yes. DD and AM actually did that.

So far UD has had some ability to put a team together that may approach an E8 or FF appearance but waiting for a program such as UD to have representation in the FF once every 4-5 years let alone win it all once every 4-5 years that wait is still on going.

Would we all prefer a NCAA Championship WIN every 4-5 years absolutely but lets not kid ourselves that is inherently possible.

If one can't enjoy the process (and that takes in being selected on Sunday and playing in the NCAAT and maybe making a deep run) then one will miss the adventure of it all.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[TX Flyer]

Some in here believe they are Joe Biden and living in the 60s still

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by TX Flyer Some in here believe they are Joe Biden and living in the 60s still

First of all, don't get me started on that f'n moron Joe Biden or anyone in the "liberal" class that thinks he's doing a good job. Him and his documented family corruption, idiotic US damaging policies define everything that's wrong in the US.

Anybody who has the delusion that Dayton is going to be a perennial top 10 team, constantly playing for a final 4 has drastically unrealistic expectations and will always be disappointed.

[OSU Flyer]

I don’t think AG should be fired. I’m critical of him but I think he does do a great job at a lot of things.

I think the best solution would be to change the offense in offseason. Dating back to Bama that’s been the Achilles heel save for the season he had the national player of the year. The great coaches adjust their approach when things aren’t working
Posted via Mobile Device

[TX Flyer]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 First of all, don't get me started on that f'n moron Joe Biden or anyone in the "liberal" class that thinks he's doing a good job. Him and his documented family corruption, idiotic US damaging policies define everything that's wrong in the US. Anybody who has the delusion that Dayton is going to be a perennial top 10 team, constantly playing for a final 4 has drastically unrealistic expectations and will always be disappointed.

My bad, didn’t mean to make it political and will keep it to UD

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 This is only his 6th year, if a number 1 projected seed and 29-2 record happened once in his first 5 years, that mean theoretically, he's got this year and 4 more after to duplicate....nice math wizards we have on this board...

He said once every 4 or 5 years. It happened in year 3. 4-5 years from there would be 7 or 8. Does accomplishing that not reset the clock? In my opinion it would Mr. Mathematician.

[OSU Flyer]

Getting another national player of the year is a tall order. How realistic is it to base future success on that?
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[shocka43]

UD hasn't put teams in the tourney consistently let alone make runs.

Neil Sullivan set his expectations. Right now, UD mens basketball is not meeting those expectations.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by m21eagle45 He said once every 4 or 5 years. It happened in year 3. 4-5 years from there would be 7 or 8. Does accomplishing that not reset the clock? In my opinion it would Mr. Mathematician.

Lol- probably by year 7-8, I’d agree.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Runnin' Rebel]

Originally Posted by shocka43 UD hasn't put teams in the tourney consistently let alone make runs. Neil Sullivan set his expectations. Right now, UD mens basketball is not meeting those expectations.

When Grant came here, I seem to recall Neil saying the expectation would be Dayton competing for the A10 league title each year.

After Grant's 1st year, Flyers have gone:

2018-19 (13-5)
2019-20 (18-0)
2020-21 (9-7)
2021-22 (14-4)
2022-23 (tbd)

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by Runnin' Rebel When Grant came here, I seem to recall Neil saying the expectation would be Dayton competing for the A10 league title each year. After Grant's 1st year, Flyers have gone: 2018-19 (13-5) 2019-20 (18-0) 2020-21 (9-7) 2021-22 (14-4) 2022-23 (tbd)

3rd, 1st, 7th, Tied for 2nd place... and poor results in the A10 tourney.

I guess this season will determine what side of competing for titles we are on.

[zmz723]

Q: What are your thoughts on Anthony Grant's first season as head coach and the status of Dayton men's basketball moving forward?

A: We have high expectations. Coach Grant has been absolutely exceptional to work with. I have a tremendous amount of confidence in him and the staff. We have a very experienced coaching staff. Really, nothing's changed in regard to our program expectations. We understand, and Coach understands the standards of excellence necessary to meet those expectations, which is to compete for conference championships and advance in the NCAA tournament.


50/50 at best on the first one since they haven’t even made an A-10 final and not even close on the second.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer Getting another national player of the year is a tall order. How realistic is it to base future success on that? Posted via Mobile Device

So AG walks in late in the game from the NBA and lands said player of the year and perhaps the 2nd or 3rd best PG the program has ever had and you think he can’t do it again or can only field a team that good if he lands another POY?

I think there are some on here blaming AG for not having the foresight to see Covid coming and waiting a year to put that team on the floor.

One thing no one has mentioned is the possible impact NIL may be having on things. This team was a cohesive until from the 6th game forward last year but that is gone now. Could there be jealousies damaging the team chemistry and affecting results? It happened for 2 years under AM over a girl. Why couldn’t money do the same? Something more than injuries seems to be going on.
Posted via Mobile Device

[T-Bone 84]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 If coach AG was fired after this year (let's assume you AM loving morons got your way and AG was fired...) and a coach suddenly said he was interested in the job at Dayton, but his resume for his first 8 years of coaching looked like this, would you want to hire him? 11–14 20–8 19–9 14–11 9–17 17–13 10-17 11–17 111-106 Please chime in...

Longtime, maybe I’m stupid, or maybe I’m just out of the loop, but whose record is this?
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[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 Longtime, maybe I’m stupid, or maybe I’m just out of the loop, but whose record is this? Posted via Mobile Device

Was just trying to make a point. That coaching record is the first 8 years of Mike Krzyzewski, you know the Duke coaching legend and all time winningest NCAA coach. First five years was his record at Army, followed by his first 3 years at Duke. Of course win/loss records are all that some people care about…
Posted via Mobile Device

[T-Bone 84]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer …One thing no one has mentioned is the possible impact NIL may be having on things. This team was a cohesive until from the 6th game forward last year but that is gone now. Could there be jealousies damaging the team chemistry and affecting results? It happened for 2 years under AM over a girl. Why couldn’t money do the same? Something more than injuries seems to be going on. Posted via Mobile Device

You bring up a good point about the impact that NIL could be having on team cohesiveness. I’m not saying it is. I’m not saying it isn’t. And I think CAG would do way more to intervene than CAM did when Girlfriend-Gate hit, if NIL started becoming a disruptive issue with the team. But the NCAA in its infinite wisdom (stupidity?) allowed for the possibility when they approved the current NIL policy. We just need to learn to live with it, while still trying to build a successful program.
Posted via Mobile Device

[T-Bone 84]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 Was just trying to make a point. That coaching record is the first 8 years of Mike Krzyzewski, you know the Duke coaching legend and all time winningest NCAA coach. First five years was his record at Army, followed by his first 3 years at Duke. Of course win/loss records are all that some people care about… Posted via Mobile Device

I see your point. Unfortunately, that was then and this is now, and NCAA Men’s Basketball is WAY more “big business” now than it was when I was in Junior High, High School, and my first 3 years at UD (which coincides with K’s first 8 years as a HC).
Posted via Mobile Device

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Runnin' Rebel When Grant came here, I seem to recall Neil saying the expectation would be Dayton competing for the A10 league title each year. After Grant's 1st year, Flyers have gone: 2018-19 (13-5) 2019-20 (18-0) 2020-21 (9-7) 2021-22 (14-4) 2022-23 (tbd)

I read your post and thought about it and came to the conclusion that if Neil said that, he was setting the bar too low and that's a problem. So I looked it up and what Neil actually said was this.

"“Anthony Grant is a proven winner with the highest integrity,” Sullivan said about the hire. “He has successful experience in coaching, recruiting and playing basketball at an elite level. I welcome Anthony to our staff and look forward to partnering with him as we continue to aggressively pursue graduating student-athletes, winning conference championships and advancing in the NCAA tournament. He is absolutely the right coach.”

So let's not pretend that AG has came close to checking all the boxes.

Let me just reiterate I'm not ready to fire him. Not close. I mean, that would mean losing the rest of what was once considered a top recruiting class and I could see rebuilding would take forever with the new NIL and transfer rules.

But if this season plays out as it has started, and we don't have the main core of our team returning next year, which means another rebuild, the 2nd such since 2019-2020, then I would close the book on him. Because if we lose DaRon and Camara and who knows, maybe even Mike wouldn't want to hang around, without an NCAA appearance to show for it, that makes AG a failure 5 out of 6 seasons with more on the way.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 I see your point. Unfortunately, that was then and this is now, and NCAA Men’s Basketball is WAY more “big business” now than it was when I was in Junior High, High School, and my first 3 years at UD (which coincides with K’s first 8 years as a HC). Posted via Mobile Device

Men's basketball has always been big business - even then. There were droves of people at Duke that wanted coach K to be fired at year 3. Fortunately for the Duke fans, that didn't happen. These UD fans or fans in general theses days...if there's not instant continual results, want the coach to be fired. Maybe a Kentucky can instantly reload in 1 year when coaching changes are made there; Dayton is not and never will be of that ilk. So every time there IS a coaching reset, it's always a painful reload.

[flyerfanatic86]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 Men's basketball has always been big business - even then. There were droves of people at Duke that wanted coach K to be fired at year 3. Fortunately for the Duke fans, that didn't happen.

I remember this exact same argument being made on this board for keeping BG much longer than he ever earned.

Grant has a pretty long career resume at this point. His UD tenure isn't an outlier. This is who he is. If that's good enough for you then that's fine. But if he can't get this team with this talent to play well enough for an at large, idk what hope you have for next season or beyond.

[longtimefan67]

>>>
Originally Posted by Runnin' Rebel View Post
When Grant came here, I seem to recall Neil saying the expectation would be Dayton competing for the A10 league title each year.

After Grant's 1st year, Flyers have gone:

2018-19 (13-5)
2019-20 (18-0)
2020-21 (9-7)
2021-22 (14-4)
2022-23 (tbd)
I read your post and thought about it and came to the conclusion that if Neil said that, he was setting the bar too low and that's a problem. So I looked it up and what Neil actually said was this.

"“Anthony Grant is a proven winner with the highest integrity,” Sullivan said about the hire. “He has successful experience in coaching, recruiting and playing basketball at an elite level. I welcome Anthony to our staff and look forward to partnering with him as we continue to aggressively pursue graduating student-athletes, winning conference championships and advancing in the NCAA tournament. He is absolutely the right coach.”

So let's not pretend that AG has came close to checking all the boxes.

Let me just reiterate I'm not ready to fire him. Not close. I mean, that would mean losing the rest of what was once considered a top recruiting class and I could see rebuilding would take forever with the new NIL and transfer rules.

But if this season plays out as it has started, and we don't have the main core of our team returning next year, which means another rebuild, the 2nd such since 2019-2020, then I would close the book on him. Because if we lose DaRon and Camara and who knows, maybe even Mike wouldn't want to hang around, without an NCAA appearance to show for it, that makes AG a failure 5 out of 6 seasons with more on the way.<<<

So, responding to the multi-post, since the 2018-2019 season, not including this season, Dayton has gone 54-16 in conference for a relatively very fine 77% winning percentage and you still consider AG a failure as a coach? wow

[flyerfanatic86]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 >>> So, responding to the multi-post, since the 2018-2019 season, not including this season, Dayton has gone 54-16 in conference for a relatively very fine 77% winning percentage and you still consider AG a failure as a coach? wow

I mean, that's pretty clear cherry picking, but yes. If you don't make the tournament, you failed. That's a failure. I don't care how often you beat Fordham or La Salle, success is measured by conference championships and tournament appearances. I can't believe so many people lived through seasons of actual success and are so quick to shrug and go back to "20 wins is a good year!"

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

[NJFlyr71]

Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86 I mean, that's pretty clear cherry picking, but yes. If you don't make the tournament, you failed. That's a failure. I don't care how often you beat Fordham or La Salle, success is measured by conference championships and tournament appearances. I can't believe so many people lived through seasons of actual success and are so quick to shrug and go back to "20 wins is a good year!"

During the 60's and early 70's DD years, 20 wins got you noticed and quite possibly into the NCAA. Not a guarantee there but if not, usually into the NIT.

But that was so long ago ... I agree - it means nothing in today's world of college BB.

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

[CT Flyer]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer So AG walks in late in the game from the NBA and lands said player of the year and perhaps the 2nd or 3rd best PG the program has ever had and you think he can’t do it again or can only field a team that good if he lands another POY? I think there are some on here blaming AG for not having the foresight to see Covid coming and waiting a year to put that team on the floor. One thing no one has mentioned is the possible impact NIL may be having on things. This team was a cohesive until from the 6th game forward last year but that is gone now. Could there be jealousies damaging the team chemistry and affecting results? It happened for 2 years under AM over a girl. Why couldn’t money do the same? Something more than injuries seems to be going on. Posted via Mobile Device

Hasn't every school had to deal with Covid and NIL? What makes it so different at Dayton that we get to use it as an excuse over everybody else?

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by CT Flyer Hasn't every school had to deal with Covid and NIL? What makes it so different at Dayton that we get to use it as an excuse over everybody else?

I’m not excusing either but not all teams will ‘suffer’ from NIL equally. To only look at NIL as an excuse is not rational. It is a significant new factor that could cause great division in teams and that all teams will have to deal with. If it makes you feel better to call it an excuse, have at it.

If all the blue chippers are getting their money, where is the problem? The Daytons of the world have a wider disparity of talent in the top 8 and likely NIL for the same.

Perhaps a guy like Brea who was unhappy not starting last year is making 1/5 what of what Malachi or others are getting. If he feels he can’t get what he thinks he deserves as 6th man perhaps that causes issues. I’m not saying it is - just wondering as something is wrong with the chemistry that seems to be more than just injuries.

The point is NIL is so new that teams will have to learn to deal with and how it impacts will change constantly until teams better understand where the water will settle.
Posted via Mobile Device

[TXFlyerFan]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 Men's basketball has always been big business - even then. There were droves of people at Duke that wanted coach K to be fired at year 3. Fortunately for the Duke fans, that didn't happen. These UD fans or fans in general theses days...if there's not instant continual results, want the coach to be fired. Maybe a Kentucky can instantly reload in 1 year when coaching changes are made there; Dayton is not and never will be of that ilk. So every time there IS a coaching reset, it's always a painful reload.

This isn't year 3 for Grant

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 >>> Originally Posted by Runnin' Rebel View Post When Grant came here, I seem to recall Neil saying the expectation would be Dayton competing for the A10 league title each year. After Grant's 1st year, Flyers have gone: 2018-19 (13-5) 2019-20 (18-0) 2020-21 (9-7) 2021-22 (14-4) 2022-23 (tbd) I read your post and thought about it and came to the conclusion that if Neil said that, he was setting the bar too low and that's a problem. So I looked it up and what Neil actually said was this. "“Anthony Grant is a proven winner with the highest integrity,” Sullivan said about the hire. “He has successful experience in coaching, recruiting and playing basketball at an elite level. I welcome Anthony to our staff and look forward to partnering with him as we continue to aggressively pursue graduating student-athletes, winning conference championships and advancing in the NCAA tournament. He is absolutely the right coach.” So let's not pretend that AG has came close to checking all the boxes. Let me just reiterate I'm not ready to fire him. Not close. I mean, that would mean losing the rest of what was once considered a top recruiting class and I could see rebuilding would take forever with the new NIL and transfer rules. But if this season plays out as it has started, and we don't have the main core of our team returning next year, which means another rebuild, the 2nd such since 2019-2020, then I would close the book on him. Because if we lose DaRon and Camara and who knows, maybe even Mike wouldn't want to hang around, without an NCAA appearance to show for it, that makes AG a failure 5 out of 6 seasons with more on the way.<<< So, responding to the multi-post, since the 2018-2019 season, not including this season, Dayton has gone 54-16 in conference for a relatively very fine 77% winning percentage and you still consider AG a failure as a coach? wow

Trying to figure out if your read Neil's whole quote. Competing for A10 championships wasn't the only goal. Yes, 5 out of 6 seasons without an NCAA appearance is a failure. 5 out of 6 seasons without NCAA Appearance with a rebuild starting in year 7 (which is what I said btw) would be a colossal failure.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Trying to figure out if your read Neil's whole quote. Competing for A10 championships wasn't the only goal. Yes, 5 out of 6 seasons without an NCAA appearance is a failure. 5 out of 6 seasons without NCAA Appearance with a rebuild starting in year 7 (which is what I said btw) would be a colossal failure.

Why do so many seem so happy and anxious to count this season as a failure halfway thru the non-conf? Didn’t people learn anything from last year when they did the same thing 4 games into the season ?
Posted via Mobile Device

[hawkoooo]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer Why do so many seem so happy to count this season as a failure halfway thru the non-conf? Didn’t people learn anything from last year when they did the same thing 5 games into the season ? Posted via Mobile Device

That's the tone you're getting from this board after a 3-4 start? Happiness?

[OSU Flyer]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer So AG walks in late in the game from the NBA and lands said player of the year and perhaps the 2nd or 3rd best PG the program has ever had and you think he can’t do it again or can only field a team that good if he lands another POY? I think there are some on here blaming AG for not having the foresight to see Covid coming and waiting a year to put that team on the floor. One thing no one has mentioned is the possible impact NIL may be having on things. This team was a cohesive until from the 6th game forward last year but that is gone now. Could there be jealousies damaging the team chemistry and affecting results? It happened for 2 years under AM over a girl. Why couldn’t money do the same? Something more than injuries seems to be going on. Posted via Mobile Device

I’d be pleasantly surprised if AG ever made the tourney again here
Posted via Mobile Device

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by hawkoooo That's the tone you're getting from this board after a 3-4 start? Happiness?

Maybe broken record would be a better description. Same story - different year.

How about letting the season play out before you count it as a evidence for your argument? I guess you at least waited 2-3 more games this year before pronouncing it over. That’s the biggest problem with UDScott and his minions. They believe their own spin is fact rather than the heavily biased opinion that it is.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer Why do so many seem so happy and anxious to count this season as a failure halfway thru the non-conf? Didn’t people learn anything from last year when they did the same thing 4 games into the season ? Posted via Mobile Device

You should follow the thread to see what got me to this quote or you'll take it out of context. I used "ifs". Longtime took my hypothetical "if" and defended AG (he does a lot of defending on negative "ifs" if you haven't noticed) if it plays out that way.

What I said originally is this: Let me just reiterate I'm not ready to fire him. Not close. I mean, that would mean losing the rest of what was once considered a top recruiting class and I could see rebuilding would take forever with the new NIL and transfer rules.

But if this season plays out as it has started, and we don't have the main core of our team returning next year, which means another rebuild, the 2nd such since 2019-2020, then I would close the book on him. Because if we lose DaRon and Camara and who knows, maybe even Mike wouldn't want to hang around, without an NCAA appearance to show for it, that makes AG a failure 5 out of 6 seasons with more on the way.

[shocka43]

Even if NIL is impacting the team... it's AGs problem to fix. Not the fans in the stands.

It's mentioned above... but people act as if we are the only program that ever has to deal with COVID, NIL, injuries, mono, etc.

The above are simply excuses. AG isn't meeting Neil's stated expectations and certain fans are pointing that out.

[flyerfanatic86]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer Why do so many seem so happy and anxious to count this season as a failure halfway thru the non-conf? Didn’t people learn anything from last year when they did the same thing 4 games into the season ? Posted via Mobile Device

We are running out of opportunities for good wins. Kansas isn't on the schedule now. It's going to take a crazy run of wins or a conference tournament win. With a team that seems to be regressing rather than improving.

[CT Flyer]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer Why do so many seem so happy and anxious to count this season as a failure halfway thru the non-conf? Didn’t people learn anything from last year when they did the same thing 4 games into the season ? Posted via Mobile Device

Yes, I learned that last year we lost three BUY games, which should never happen, and we missed the NCAAT again.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by shocka43 Even if NIL is impacting the team... it's AGs problem to fix. Not the fans in the stands. It's mentioned above... but people act as if we are the only program that ever has to deal with COVID, NIL, injuries, mono, etc. The above are simply excuses. AG isn't meeting Neil's stated expectations and certain fans are pointing that out.

Feel free to point it out. Again, as a NON-Season Ticket holder, I have much less in the game or at financial stake than some of you. But the season, as difficult as it has started, isn't over yet. Clearly, Mali wasn't ready to come back when he did OR he was guilty of convincing the staff that he was ready and AG took a chance. Call them excuses if you want, it really doesn't matter in the long run. I'm concerned with team direction but my life doesn't end with a derailed season by a key injury to a UD player. I've seen this play out so many times over the last 55 years it'll make your head spin. I can think of two examples where a key injury derailed two other UD coaches with great years going and there wasn't much they could do (Jim Paxson Jr., senior year and Chris Wright, freshman year; and there's plenty others). Let the season play out. If we see a complete disaster from a coach who makes no adjustments going forward and next year is a disaster as well, then don't worry, good ole Neil will do what's best for himself and the university. And then you guys can start immediately disparaging the next coach for lack of progress as I'm sure you'll have no difficulty doing since you've been practicing this tactic for decades.

	Chris Wright CHRIS WRIGHT 6-8 225lb | Trotwood Madison, HS (OH) A10 All Rookie Team. Preseason 2008 2nd Team All A10. Member of the UD Flight Club with a 40+ inch vertical leap. Consensus Top-75 national recruit. Uncle is former Flyer J.D. Grigsby. Nickname is Top Flyght. CAREER STATS 2007-08 10.4ppg 5.7rpg

[Furio]

ncaa tourney appearances by UD if you include 2019

in last 10 years five
in last 20 years eight
in last 30 years nine
in last 40 years twelve

long term averaging 3 appearances in 10 year span.

the standards posted here by the ad are a bit vague as to the
frequency of appearances they expect.

Back in the early 70's I heard 3 out 5 years alot from the adminstration.

Obviously not met that standard.

[Smitty10]

I have to reiterate something I touched on prior to the meltdown against BYU with BYU now added in.

In our last 7 losses, we've blown double digit leads in 5 of them.


LaSalle winning 30-19 at the half.

Richmond winning 31-21 16 minutes into the game

UNLV 32-22 at the half

NCST 19-9 8 minutes into game

BYU 32-9 14 minutes into game

Now, I'm not going get into all the other times we've blown big leads, though the 20 point lead we had against Colorado sticks in memory during our greatest season. But if someone can name 5 times that an Archie Miller team blew double digit leads in his 6 seasons here, I will then admit that Archie can have as many bad coaching games in 6 full seasons of total losses that AG can have in an 7 game stretch. I don't think Brian Gregory or Oliver Purnell ever had more in their careers here and JOB probably didn't either since his teams rarely ever had a 10 point lead in seasons other than his first

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 If we see a complete disaster from a coach who makes no adjustments going forward and next year is a disaster as well, then don't worry, good ole Neil will do what's best for himself and the university.

I am not at all sure of that happening.

[pmcmullen]

Originally Posted by shocka43 Even if NIL is impacting the team... it's AGs problem to fix. Not the fans in the stands. It's mentioned above... but people act as if we are the only program that ever has to deal with COVID, NIL, injuries, mono, etc. The above are simply excuses. AG isn't meeting Neil's stated expectations and certain fans are pointing that out.

BINGO!!!

One kind of person that drives me insane in the world are those that act like every misfortune is a sign the world is out to get them. It's not, and stuff happens all over, all the time, to everyone. Some people bask in it and can't seem to overcome. Others smile their way through and find or make light at the end of the tunnel - often times by making necessary changes to correct the course.

Which one describes our basketball team? No NCAA this year and no changes before next year, and that answer should be clear.

[Figgie123]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Now, I'm not going get into all the other times we've blown big leads, though the 20 point lead we had against Colorado sticks in memory during our greatest season.

And that is why your memory can never be trusted. It was a 14 point lead at 19-5 at 14:19 in the 2nd half.

Originally Posted by Smitty10 But if someone can name 5 times that an Archie Miller team blew double digit leads in his 6 seasons here, I will then admit that Archie can have as many bad coaching games in 6 full seasons of total losses that AG can have in an 7 game stretch.

That's a backhanded stat request. I can name 5 times that Archie lost double digit leads. Actually, I can name 6, but that's not your point, of course.

Originally Posted by Smitty10 I don't think Brian Gregory or Oliver Purnell ever had more in their careers here and JOB probably didn't either since his teams rarely ever had a 10 point lead in seasons other than his first

I only have in-game stats from 2005, so missed 2 Gregory years, but outside of that, your implied claim that no coach has had more double digit losses than Grant is accurate in this time period.

Since the 2005-06 season, I have 28 games where UD has lost games where they had a double-digit leads. 9 for Brian Gregory, 6 by Archie Miller, and 13 by Anthony Grant.

--Figgie

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Figgie123 And that is why your memory can never be trusted. It was a 14 point lead at 19-5 at 14:19 in the 2nd half. That's a backhanded stat request. I can name 5 times that Archie lost double digit leads. Actually, I can name 6, but that's not your point, of course. I only have in-game stats from 2005, so missed 2 Gregory years, but outside of that, your implied claim that no coach has had more double digit losses than Grant is accurate in this time period. Since the 2005-06 season, I have 28 games where UD has lost games where they had a double-digit leads. 9 for Brian Gregory, 6 by Archie Miller, and 13 by Anthony Grant. --Figgie

Thanks Figgie. You're right, my memory is playing tricks on me. I probably am merging two game in my head, the Colorado game with the St. Mary's game when we had a 24 point lead and allowed them to get within 8 in the final quarter of game.

And I asked to prove to me that AM has lost the same amount in 6 years as AG has in the last 7 losses(which is 5). So I will now have to admit that Archie blew one more double digit lead in 6 seasons(202 games) as AG has in the past 7 losses(which covers a 14 game span).

I don't know the numbers, but my faulty memory tells me that AG doesn't extend on leads he builds up in the 1st half very often. Kind of points to the criticism of AGs lack of successful adjustments.

BTW Figgie, everyone of those 5 games we lost a double digit lead(in our last 7 losses), we were favored to win. That's what makes it so inexcusable. I remember a game where Don Donoher built up a 20 point lead against #1 ranked Depaul (something like 23-3) before the Blue Demons came back and won. But that's not shocking and as unusual. They were number one for a reason and they proved why.

I'm guessing that of the 6 games that AM did it in(again in 202 games) most if not all we were the Underdog who jetted to a lead and then lost it to a better team(or a team favored because they had home court).

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[hawkoooo]

Originally Posted by pmcmullen BINGO!!! One kind of person that drives me insane in the world are those that act like every misfortune is a sign the world is out to get them. It's not, and stuff happens all over, all the time, to everyone. Some people bask in it and can't seem to overcome. Others smile their way through and find or make light at the end of the tunnel - often times by making necessary changes to correct the course. Which one describes our basketball team? No NCAA this year and no changes before next year, and that answer should be clear.

This is a hell of a post and contains some pretty amazing life advice.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 You should follow the thread to see what got me to this quote or you'll take it out of context. I used "ifs". Longtime took my hypothetical "if" and defended AG (he does a lot of defending on negative "ifs" if you haven't noticed) if it plays out that way. What I said originally is this: Let me just reiterate I'm not ready to fire him. Not close. I mean, that would mean losing the rest of what was once considered a top recruiting class and I could see rebuilding would take forever with the new NIL and transfer rules. But if this season plays out as it has started, and we don't have the main core of our team returning next year, which means another rebuild, the 2nd such since 2019-2020, then I would close the book on him. Because if we lose DaRon and Camara and who knows, maybe even Mike wouldn't want to hang around, without an NCAA appearance to show for it, that makes AG a failure 5 out of 6 seasons with more on the way.

Smitty, you flip-flop more than every politician I know of. You gushed over Grant during 29-2. I have full faith in AG. You don't. You're already talking about "ifs" for next year without even the faintest idea of what plays out, except in your own mind and then immediately calling this season a failure for "5/6 seasons". Your sh1t is laughable to say the least. Maybe Daron, Camara and Mike and TEAM all turn it around and win out, maybe they lose out. Nobody knows. Maybe all the team leaves but Mike, and AG brings in (3) 5 star recruits since they all see the immediate opportunity to play next year and go on to win the National Championship. These hypotheticals can drive you crazy huh? Continue to play these mind games all by yourself if you feel it necessary. I stand by AG.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 Smitty, you flip-flop more than every politician I know of. You gushed over Grant during 29-2. I have full faith in AG. You don't. You're already talking about "ifs" for next year without even the faintest idea of what plays out, except in your own mind and then immediately calling this season a failure for "5/6 seasons". Your sh1t is laughable to say the least. Maybe Daron, Camara and Mike and TEAM all turn it around and win out, maybe they lose out. Nobody knows. Maybe all the team leaves but Mike, and AG brings in (3) 5 star recruits since they all see the immediate opportunity to play next year and go on to win the National Championship. These hypotheticals can drive you crazy huh? Continue to play these mind games all by yourself if you feel it necessary. I stand by AG.

You're totally full of crap. You act like I'm saying the season is over, and then you admit that I used "ifs". Stop your BS. Especially since you just came back with an "if". I gushed over 29-2, wow, it was a great season. I'm upset with seasons that don't get us to the dance. Again, I'm a fan, what can I say.

Let's go back to 1990. Remember that? Remember we got a new coach who took the team to the dance, won a game against Illinois and lost a 2 pointer to final 4 Arkansas minus our best 3 point shooter. I and everyone else was giddy. How'd that work out 4 years later? Were we all flip-floppers then?

Anthony grant reached the pinnacle in year 3, after 2 seasons where I thought we looked crappier than we should've. But, I even said I was wrong, if this is what I can expect sign me up. That was after 2 years of excuses by you and everyone else about how he has to weed out all the bums left over from AM's teams and build his own. Now, for the 3rd year in a row, he's got a team that's 100 percent his and we are 3-4, being favored in every single game this season.

Anthony Grant fooled me with 2019-2020. He's more 2017-2018 and 2020-2022(so far) than he is was that one great season.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 Maybe all the team leaves but Mike, and AG brings in (3) 5 star recruits since they all see the immediate opportunity to play next year and go on to win the National Championship.

I am concerned about this though. Recruiting can dry up because of all these non-ncaat years. I think there is a lot of program/coach momentum/reputation involved in recruiting, and we have had negative momentum for the last 2+ years.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 You're totally full of crap. You act like I'm saying the season is over, and then you admit that I used "ifs". Stop your BS. Especially since you just came back with an "if". I gushed over 29-2, wow, it was a great season. I'm upset with seasons that don't get us to the dance. Again, I'm a fan, what can I say. Let's go back to 1990. Remember that? Remember we got a new coach who took the team to the dance, won a game against Illinois and lost a 2 pointer to final 4 Arkansas minus our best 3 point shooter. I and everyone else was giddy. How'd that work out 4 years later? Were we all flip-floppers then? Anthony grant reached the pinnacle in year 3, after 2 seasons where I thought we looked crappier than we should've. But, I even said I was wrong, if this is what I can expect sign me up. That was after 2 years of excuses by you and everyone else about how he has to weed out all the bums left over from AM's teams and build his own. Now, for the 3rd year in a row, he's got a team that's 100 percent his and we are 3-4, being favored in every single game this season. Anthony Grant fooled me with 2019-2020. He's more 2017-2018 and 2020-2022(so far) than he is was that one great season.

That Anthony Grant fella, yeah he can really fool you with his coaching shenanegans. One year he's great, then like a light switch, he turns off his coaching philosophies at will to **** off all the fans just so he can get a read on who's faithful and who's not. He doesn't really need any healthy players this year after all, he's got years of coaching experience and who really needs the players anyway, the bums that they all are.

Talking to you and guys like you is like talking to a spoiled teenager.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 That Anthony Grant fella, yeah he can really fool you with his coaching shenanegans. One year he's great, then like a light switch, he turns off his coaching philosophies at will to **** off all the fans just so he can get a read on who's faithful and who's not. He doesn't really need any healthy players this year after all, he's got years of coaching experience and who really needs the players anyway, the bums that they all are. Talking to you and guys like you is like talking to a spoiled teenager.

That JOB fella, yeah he can really fool you with his coaching shenanegans. One year he's great, then like a light switch, he turns off his coaching philosophies at will to **** off all the fans just so he can get a read on who's faithful and who's not.

Good lord. It just occurred to me that you have been pulling out ridiculous excuses for why Grant's seasons aren't measuring up to Millers that your tunnel vision has kept you from using the only legitimate excuse he's got.

It's a good one too. But I'll wait for you to ask me what that is first so I can bookmark the thread and show you everytime you steal it from me and use it in the future.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 JOB fella, yeah he can really fool you with his coaching shenanegans. One year he's great, then like a light switch, he turns off his coaching philosophies at will to **** off all the fans just so he can get a read on who's faithful and who's not. Good lord. It just occurred to me that you have been pulling out ridiculous excuses for why Grant's seasons aren't measuring up to Millers that your tunnel vision has kept you from using the only legitimate excuse he's got. It's a good one too. But I'll wait for you to ask me what that is first so I can bookmark the thread and show you everytime you steal it from me and use it in the future.

As usual, you ramble and I have no idea what you're saying here.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 As usual, you ramble and I have no idea what you're saying here.

You know what I'm talking about but just aren't astute enough to use the only legitimate excuse that AG's got. I'm not about to give to you because it would be the excuse you can use without making a total fool of yourself.

[Runnin' Rebel]

Regarding my coach, Anthony Grant (AG)...

If I were an outsider, and was asked how good a coach is AG - whose opinion would I seek out?

The emotional Priders posting on a forum (who are acting like they didn't get what they wanted for Christmas),
or his coaching peers and college bball analysts?

I'll go with his coaching peers and college bball analysts, whom over the years have only had really good things to say about our coach. An opinion also shared by his former players and their families.

You all talk about the 29-2 season as if Obi did it all by himself... well there were multiple other coaches that same year that had 3 or 4 Obi's on their team, and didn't have the success coach Grant and staff did.

Imagine being at the pinnacle of your coaching career, and having it pulled out from underneath you by a pandemic.

(yes all teams had to deal with the pandemic, but Dayton was in a different situation than most any other program - being a mid-major and just completing the best regular season in history)

Imagine a few years later, losing your daughter to suicide.

(I personally know this kind of loss, and for most people it takes years to recover from it - and even then some folks will remain a shell of their former self)

So when you all say, every coach has to deal with the same problems as AG - you're not exactly right.

Yet, here he is... working his ass off (with his staff) to figure out how to "right the ship" in the middle of all the injuries plaguing this year's team.

Trying to do what not a single one of you could do... none of us could do it, even without any of the adversity.

I prefer to have my coaches back right now!

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 You know what I'm talking about but just aren't astute enough to use the only legitimate excuse that AG's got. I'm not about to give to you because it would be the excuse you can use without making a total fool of yourself.

I'm a lot more astute than you think and for the record, I despised JOB from the very beginning; my brother can confirm that because he felt the same way. JOB was a cocky, know-it-all coach who took 6 under-performing seniors to the NCAA -one of who at least admitted later, that the players themselves were the problem during the preceding DD years. Fools gold was JOB that first year; everyone knew the real test was after 1990 team graduated and I for one wasn't surprised.

It doesn't take a mental genius to figure out the main reason this team is struggling; it's injuries and sickness. Next...

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 I'm a lot more astute than you think and for the record, I despised JOB from the very beginning; my brother can confirm that because he felt the same way. JOB was a cocky, know-it-all coach who took 6 under-performing seniors to the NCAA -one of who at least admitted later, that the players themselves were the problem during the preceding DD years. Fools gold was JOB that first year; everyone knew the real test was after 1990 team graduated and I for one wasn't surprised. It doesn't take a mental genius to figure out the main reason this team is struggling; it's injuries and sickness. Next...

Failed again. I'm not talking about just this team this year. You've made excuses for all 4 of our known disappointing seasons, you've made another for this one, but really, there's only one excuse that AG has that isn't "bad luck" or "the other guy left the cupboard bare(so fricken lame lol). But you're too dense to even use it. It would be kind of a case closed and you can go on with drumming up excuses for the rest of your life that doesn't include Anthony Grant".

Also, I knew that you didn't like JOB even after he did so well his first season. It's the Donoher and Donoher tree man crush I mentioned earlier that includes Grant. I means really? If you can wave off 4 straight NCAA appearances as nothing, that immediately preceded your one man crush, I'm sure you had no problem waving of the immediate NCAA success of another who proceeded your original man crush.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[Figgie123]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 BTW Figgie, everyone of those 5 games we lost a double digit lead(in our last 7 losses), we were favored to win. That's what makes it so inexcusable. I remember a game where Don Donoher built up a 20 point lead against #1 ranked Depaul (something like 23-3) before the Blue Demons came back and won. But that's not shocking and as unusual. They were number one for a reason and they proved why. I'm guessing that of the 6 games that AM did it in(again in 202 games) most if not all we were the Underdog who jetted to a lead and then lost it to a better team(or a team favored because they had home court).

I'm thinking 4 of the 6 were underdogs. Mar 2012 vs Xavier (A10), Feb 2013 vs Temple, Nov 2013 vs Baylor, Jan 2017 at VCU (UD finished season as 1 seed, VCU as 2 seed, but this game was AT VCU.)

1 favorite should be Feb 2015 at Duquesne. UD finished 2nd, Duquesne finished 11th.

1 undetermined is Mar 2013 at George Washington. UD finished 12th, GW finished 11th, and the game was at GW.

--Figgie

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

	Duquesne DUQUESNE Duquesne University is a private, coeducational university, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania located on 48 secluded acres, on a bluff above downtown. Founded in 1878 as a Catholic college by the Order of the Holy Spirit. It is the only Spiritan institution of higher education in the world. Duquesne offers 10 schools of study and 100 degree programs to 6,000 undergraduates and 3,800 graduate students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Dukes.

	George Washington GEORGE WASHINGTON Students choose from two distinct GW campuses — Foggy Bottom and Mount Vernon. Both are located in historic and prestigious Northwest Washington, DC residential neighborhoods. With 9,700 undergraduate students, GW was founded almost 200 years ago and is named after the first President of the United States. GW stands as one of the nation's premier academic institutions with dozens of famous political, social, science, liberal arts, medical and professional graduates to its credit. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Colonials.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Failed again. I'm not talking about just this team this year. You've made excuses for all 4 of our known disappointing seasons, you've made another for this one, but really, there's only one excuse that AG has that isn't "bad luck" or "the other guy left the cupboard bare(so fricken lame lol). But you're too dense to even use it. It would be kind of a case closed and you can go on with drumming up excuses for the rest of your life that doesn't include Anthony Grant". Also, I knew that you didn't like JOB even after he did so well his first season. It's the Donoher and Donoher tree man crush I mentioned earlier that includes Grant.

I'm not disappointed in "all 4 of our known disappointing seasons" - you are. Season 1 was a given; half the team deserted mentally and it was clean house time. The only season I felt underperformed if there was a season, was after Obi left. I felt Crutcher could have led the team better but that season was dysfunctional across the board; even Duke and UK had losing season IIRC.

As far as "dense"...anytime you want to match wits in a game of chess, let me know.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 I'm not disappointed in "all 4 of our known disappointing seasons" - you are. Season 1 was a given; half the team deserted mentally and it was clean house time. The only season I felt underperformed if there was a season, was after Obi left. I felt Crutcher could have led the team better but that season was dysfunctional across the board; even Duke and UK had losing season IIRC. As far as "dense"...anytime you want to match wits in a game of chess, let me know.

Oh wow, threw down a chess duel. Yeah, I can't hardly stand to be in the same thread as you, not going to spend that long in a room with you.

Look, I'm done with you. You're basketball IQ is nil. Your opinions are based solely on emotion(see man crush posts about Donoher tree). You accusing me of being a flip flopper really just shows how you think it's a positive quality to stick to your guns so doggedly even when the more data comes in proves you wrong.

Excuse for why he can't win year one before the season starts and you have the gull to question me for throwing in ifs about this season. Excuses every season except for the one good one. It could be year 15 and he still has not coached a UD game in the NCAA tournament and you'd still be throwing out excuses as to why he should remain with rants about how he's more successful than Archie.

It's a waste of my time.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Oh wow, threw down a chess duel. Yeah, I can't hardly stand to be in the same thread as you, not going to spend that long in a room with you. Look, I'm done with you. You're basketball IQ is nil. Your opinions are based solely on emotion(see man crush posts about Donoher tree). You accusing me of being a flip flopper really just shows how you think it's a positive quality to stick to your guns so doggedly even when the more data comes in proves you wrong. Excuse for why he can't win year one before the season starts and you have the gull to question me for throwing in ifs about this season. Excuses every season except for the one good one. It could be year 15 and he still has not coached a UD game in the NCAA tournament and you'd still be throwing out excuses as to why he should remain with rants about how he's more successful than Archie. It's a waste of my time.

I agree, talking with you is a waste of my time as well Mr. Wooden, er I mean Smitty. Talk about an inflated sense of basketball knowledge.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[flybye]

Bravo Runnin Rebel!!!
Posted via Mobile Device

[steve]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 I agree, talking with you is a waste of my time as well Mr. Wooden, er I mean Smitty. Talk about an inflated sense of basketball knowledge.

Don't waste your energy. The guy so much wants to be part of the UD program and actually believes Grant should share things with him. Pretty soon the p____k isn't going to have anybody to talk to on this board as many people that disagree with him.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by shocka43 Even if NIL is impacting the team... it's AGs problem to fix. Not the fans in the stands. It's mentioned above... but people act as if we are the only program that ever has to deal with COVID, NIL, injuries, mono, etc. The above are simply excuses. AG isn't meeting Neil's stated expectations and certain fans are pointing that out.

Like AM fixed Girlfriend Gate? Easier said then done IF this is any factor and it will take time. Times have changed. Drill sergeant approach isn’t working this century.
Posted via Mobile Device

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer Like AM fixed Girlfriend Gate? Easier said then done IF this is any factor and it will take time. Times have changed. Drill sergeant approach isn’t working this century. Posted via Mobile Device

AM's house wasn't clean and that was a problem.

It's the leader's problem to fix. This is with any organization. Teams, business, etc.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by steve Don't waste your energy. The guy so much wants to be part of the UD program and actually believes Grant should share things with him. Pretty soon the p____k isn't going to have anybody to talk to on this board as many people that disagree with him.

Remember this little tidbit of knowledge you shared with all of us?

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showpo...61&postcount=5

Vanderbilt is in the SEC brainiac. Still po'd that I pointed it out to the world that I was right like usual and you were wrong, umm, like usual? I love that you still are having melt downs over it. Poor, poor little stevie.

[bcross]

Originally Posted by zmz723 Dissing the teams that actually made the NCAA tourney to prop up the coach that rarely makes the NCAA tourney is bizarre. It only helps my theory that many people on this board prefer NIT appearances with a coach who is a “good guy”. Posted via Mobile Device

Same people were fine with Brian Gregory and hoped he stay forever. It is what it is.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 That Anthony Grant fella, yeah he can really fool you with his coaching shenanegans. One year he's great, then like a light switch, he turns off his coaching philosophies at will to **** off all the fans just so he can get a read on who's faithful and who's not. He doesn't really need any healthy players this year after all, he's got years of coaching experience and who really needs the players anyway, the bums that they all are. Talking to you and guys like you is like talking to a spoiled teenager.

If you're nit looking at his entire coaching record you're not paying attention.

I want the guy to be here for a long time and actually meet his own bosses expectations.

He's not meeting Neil's stated expectations and Neil will have a decision to make when the UD money train starts pushing. If this season flops, he's got next year to do something. If not, the BE TV deal that ends in 25 will be spoken for. This IS and WAS the window of opportunity. That window is halfway shut through 7 games.

[flyerfanatic86]

Originally Posted by shocka43 If you're nit looking at his entire coaching record you're not paying attention. I want the guy to be here for a long time and actually meet his own bosses expectations. He's not meeting Neil's stated expectations and Neil will have a decision to make when the UD money train starts pushing. If this season flops, he's got next year to do something. If not, the BE TV deal that ends in 25 will be spoken for. This IS and WAS the window of opportunity. That window is halfway shut through 7 games.

And if UD continues to get shut out, what is the state of UD basketball in 15 or 20 years? Is it even playing in the same tournament as those schools, should they break away and form a new power conference-centric tournament?

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86 And if UD continues to get shut out, what is the state of UD basketball in 15 or 20 years? Is it even playing in the same tournament as those schools, should they break away and form a new power conference-centric tournament?

You're seeing the result of poor decision making with respect to conferences that literally goes back to the 70's. Dayton has always trailed X in that regard.

[Bill McPeek]

I sometimes think this program is cursed! What have we done to offend the basketball gods? We take one step forward and two steps back. Rita, we need some help!

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by m21eagle45 For every DeRon and Mike there is a Richard, Luke, Zimi, Moulaye, and Kaleb. Then there is the lack of devopment from players like Blakney and Amzil. From what I hear, Baker is going down the path of Moulaye and Richard. I will give AG credit for his first class with Obi, Crutcher, Ibi, Chatman, and Jordy. Pierce, Davis, and Svoboda were Archie recruits. He hit on all of his. Since then its been about 40% he has hit. 2018 was Policelli and Cohill. Both misses. 2019 Moulaye, Zimi, and Chase Johnson. 0 for 5 in those 2 classes. 2020 Amzil, Brea, Blakney, Weaver, and Frazier. For sure miss on Weaver and Frazier. Are Amzil, Brea, Blakney any better than they were 2 years ago when they got here? 2.5/10 on those 3 classes. Docking him .5 for lack of development of Amzil, Brea, and Blakney. 2021 Hits on DeRon, Mali, Kobe, and Camara. But lack of improvements from DeRon have been concerning. Missed on Greer, Amaefule and Washington. 6.5/17. 2022 Mike seems like a hit so far, but still early. Baker "not ready" and redshirting in year 2 of being a college player. 7.5/19. I am starting to think we give AG too much credit when it comes to identifying talent. Only Cohill has transferred out and been a good player. Weaver has been decent for a really bad Chicago State and Greer has been up and down at St. Joe. Frazier is now a DIII player. Edit: Forgot to Add Richard Amaefule and Tyrone Baker

I guess we can write off Baker as another miss. Crutcher is still the only AG recruit that has made it all 4 years and graduated.

DeRon is finally playing within himself and is being the player he is instead of trying to be a player he isn't. Still needs to add strength and be more consistent on the boards.

I know DeRon gets all the attention, but Camara is the best player on the team, and I don't think it's close.

Still hard to see the improvement from Amzil, Brea, and Blakney from their first year. Other than seeing him be more of a leader, Amzil hasn't improved since his FR year. His stats across the board were better as a freshman, even MPG (At this point). Brea, still too early to tell. His defense is still pretty bad. He did improve on offense last year. I will attribute his offensive numbers so far to rust. Blakney, must be the best practice player in America, because I do not see how he earns the minutes he gets during games. He is 16% from 3 so far this year... Solid defender though. Teams have learned they can get into his head.

Richard and Kaleb continue to be total misses.

And to be fair, I am not writing these players off as bad. Amzil is probably my favorite player on the team. But for a coach that we rave about developing players and recruiting, I am not seeing it. DeRon has improved, but I think many would agree he is not NBA ready like many thought he would be. Carama has definitely improved since arriving. If he became for consistent from 3, he would be a complete player. There are definitely good finds and players that they have developed, but you have to hit on more than 40% of your recruits and transfers you bring in.

[OSU Flyer]

M21, what do you make of Cohills offensive game vastly improving after leaving UD
Posted via Mobile Device

[N2663R]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer M21, what do you make of Cohills offensive game vastly improving after leaving UD Posted via Mobile Device

Weaker competition?

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer M21, what do you make of Cohills offensive game vastly improving after leaving UD Posted via Mobile Device

Originally Posted by N2663R Weaker competition?

I would guess a combination of a few things. He is definitely playing against weaker competition in the Horizon, but he is also The Guy there. At UD he was never expected to be the main scorer. But at the same time, his shooting has improved dramatically since going to YSU. Through 12 games this year he is making almost two 3's a game at a 58% clip (Not a typo). He shot over 41% from 3 last year. He has shown ability he never showed here.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb...-cohill-1.html

[DGO67]

Originally Posted by N2663R Weaker competition?

Some players continue to grow and prosper (Larry Bird) while others don't irrespective of coaching, conditioning, practice, etc.

[NJFlyr71]

Originally Posted by m21eagle45 I would guess a combination of a few things. He is definitely playing against weaker competition in the Horizon, but he is also The Guy there. At UD he was never expected to be the main scorer. But at the same time, his shooting has improved dramatically since going to YSU. Through 12 games this year he is making almost two 3's a game at a 58% clip (Not a typo). He shot over 41% from 3 last year. He has shown ability he never showed here. https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb...-cohill-1.html

Maybe as part of a combination, include the 'system'. Like in most team sports say in FB a QB can be poor on team A and traded to team B and blossom as never before.

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 Maybe as part of a combination, include the 'system'. Like in most team sports say in FB a QB can be poor on team A and traded to team B and blossom as never before.

Yes and no. I don't think the system explains him shooting 58% from three. If anything with the increased volume, you would expect shooting percentages to go down slightly. In his case, they are going up dramatically.

[SeasonTicketFan]

Teh days of the four-year players at one university are probably over.

if you wish to discuss AG's recruiting, then throw in his transfers, such as Ibi Watson, Jordy, Rodney and more.

I have always maintained that talent recruiting at UD is hit and miss. Recruiting coaches on staff as far back told me that several times.

I think Archie had luck with recruiting, but most every coach from Donoher on has a had their share of misses.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan Teh days of the four-year players at one university are probably over. if you wish to discuss AG's recruiting, then throw in his transfers, such as Ibi Watson, Jordy, Rodney and more. I have always maintained that talent recruiting at UD is hit and miss. Recruiting coaches on staff as far back told me that several times. I think Archie had luck with recruiting, but most every coach from Donoher on has a had their share of misses.

I agree, all teams have misses when it comes to recruiting. But over the last 5 years, only 40% of the guys have been guys we can say we hit on. That's recruits and transfers. Need to have better success than that or you have extremely thin rosters. A couple injuries on a team with a short bench and you have the 22-23 Dayton Flyers. Grants first class with Ibi, Rodney, Jordy, Obi, Jalen, was really good. We definitely need a more talented and balanced roster. Something I didn't think I would be saying coming into this year.