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View Poll Results: What's your ROYAL call???
Traveling - once the feet are lifted, it's traveling! 5 19.23%
Over-and-Back - the ball went from the front court to the back court. TWEET 6 23.08%
Nothing - no rules were broken 15 57.69%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 04-16-2018, 10:33 AM
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You Make the Call: Over-And-Back? Traveling? Neither?

I'm not going over dramatize this YMtC...just going to describe it and let you all screw up the call!

A blue player is in the back court bringing the ball up against a trapping press. To beat the press over midcourt, the ball handler sprints to their left and stumbles shy of midcourt, losing control of the ball.

As the defense backs off and still in the back court, the player dives, regains control of the ball and slides, coming to a stop with their hips, head and ball in the frontcourt and their butt and feet in the backcourt.

As the defense now swarms around the ball handler, he picks up his feet and quickly passes the ball to a teammate in the backcourt who leads a 4-on-2 fast break and passes for an easy layup. (For the record, the feet went from on-the-floor to in-the-air but the player's butt stayed stationary)

But hold on a minute...it all happened so fast that the refs whistle wasn't heard and after a few emphatic tweets, play comes to a hault!

You're the Royal ref...what's your call???
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Last edited by rollo; 04-16-2018 at 10:39 AM..
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  #2  
Old 04-16-2018, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I'm not going over dramatize this YMtC...just going to describe it and let you all screw up the call!

A blue player is in the back court bringing the ball up against a trapping press. To beat the press over midcourt, the ball handler sprints to their left and stumbles shy of midcourt, losing control of the ball.

As the defense backs off and still in the back court, the player dives, regains control of the ball and slides, coming to a stop with their hips, head and ball in the frontcourt and their butt and feet in the backcourt.

As the defense now swarms around the ball handler, he picks up his feet and quickly passes the ball to a teammate in the backcourt who leads a 4-on-2 fast break and passes for an easy layup. (For the record, the feet went from on-the-floor to in-the-air but the player's butt stayed stationary)

But hold on a minute...it all happened so fast that the refs whistle wasn't heard and after a few emphatic tweets, play comes to a hault!

You're the Royal ref...what's your call???
My understanding is its the ball that is the issue, if ball crosses mid court it would be over back to pass it back over midcourt.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:02 AM
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In order for it to be over and back three points must cross half court, both feet and the ball. This did not happen so I can't see it being an over and back call. Not sure if the rule changes if the player is not on his feet so I am going to assume not.
If you are on your swampy and pick up your feet I don't see this as a traveling as your swampy is the pivot. If you stand up from a sitting position then I believe this is traveling.
So, based on rollo's description I would be tempted to say it should have been an inadvertent whistle. I am sure I am wrong as I rarely get these correct.
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  #4  
Old 04-16-2018, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
My understanding is its the ball that is the issue, if ball crosses mid court it would be over back to pass it back over midcourt.
Which raises the question as to whether the ball actually - by rule - is in the frontcourt.

Based on the description, it never touched the floor...so is it in the frontcourt or still in the backcourt? Does holding the ball over the midcourt line officially put the ball in the frontcourt?

You tell me!

But you only have a split second to make the call...c'mon Priders! There is no replay...there is no rulebook review...just as you expect immediate perfection on the court, I expect the same here...so MAKE THE CALL!!!
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
In order for it to be over and back three points must cross half court, both feet and the ball. This did not happen so I can't see it being an over and back call. Not sure if the rule changes if the player is not on his feet so I am going to assume not.
If you are on your swampy and pick up your feet I don't see this as a traveling as your swampy is the pivot. If you stand up from a sitting position then I believe this is traveling.
So, based on rollo's description I would be tempted to say it should have been an inadvertent whistle. I am sure I am wrong as I rarely get these correct.
3 points is the definition but it doesn't always equal both feet and the ball.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:18 AM
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If he dove, I am assuming his upper body was touching the floor, thereby establishing position.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
If he dove, I am assuming his upper body was touching the floor, thereby establishing position.
Position isn't established until a sliding player comes to a stop.

At that point, you have 0.00001 seconds to decide what he/she is using to establish position...Upper body (if possible)? Feet? Butt? Shoulders? Elbows?

C'mon people...the fans are going nuts! Coaches are throwing chairs!! Dickie V has fallen asleep!!! and CBS is out of Dilly-Dilly commercials...time has run out so MAKE THE CALL!!!
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
My understanding is its the ball that is the issue, if ball crosses mid court it would be over back to pass it back over midcourt.
It's not just the ball, but the entirety of the player needs to across as well (both feet).

Last edited by SLUFLYER; 04-17-2018 at 10:07 AM..
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:01 PM
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Is the ball in the frontcourt or not? That's an important point!

When inbounding the ball, if the player holds the ball behind the end/sideline, it's a dead ball...any contact by the defending team is an automatic 'T'.

When inbounding the ball, if the player holds the ball over the end/sideline, it's a live ball...and any contact by the defending team is legal.

So the act of holding the ball over the end/sideline determines whether it's live or not...where the player is standing has no bearing.

Now apply that to this O-a-B scenario. Is the ball in the frontcourt or not? It's over the midcourt line but hasn't touched the floor...but it's over the line! Is this an important distinction?

C'MON REF! MAKE THE CALL! UDPRIDE REFS SUCK....
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post

As the defense backs off and still in the back court, the player dives, regains control of the ball and slides, ?
If your example happened at the high school level or lower, the minute the player slides, most refs incorrectly in most cases called traveling, with the help of most of the fans of the team on defense. The fans of the blue team all jump up and down and scream at the ref that their little angel was pushed down and that basketball is not a contact sport.
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:44 PM
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From the description, it sounds like the player hasn't yet established himself in the front court. Picking up his feet isn't traveling until he puts them back down and he passes before he puts them back down. So no call.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:06 PM
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(I always vote before I read the comments. Almost always to my detriment.)

My guess would have been that by establishing himself with pivot-butt-cheeks in the front court and the ball across the line in his possession, the ball is in the front court. Otherwise, you could pass it to someone in the front court and it's not officially in the FC until the guy dribbles?? Doesn't seem right.

Not traveling, but seems like over and back.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
If your example happened at the high school level or lower, the minute the player slides, most refs incorrectly in most cases called traveling, with the help of most of the fans of the team on defense. The fans of the blue team all jump up and down and scream at the ref that their little angel was pushed down and that basketball is not a contact sport.
Sliding on the floor with the ball isn't traveling??? If that's true, then pretty much EVERY announcer should be made aware of that.

That wasn't a choice, but that would have been my call here based on the description.

Not over and back because ball and body were never both fully across line.

Really not sure if the rump on the floor equals two feet or not, but I'd lean towards yes, and say no call.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Lowd&ProUD View Post
Sliding on the floor with the ball isn't traveling??? If that's true, then pretty much EVERY announcer should be made aware of that.
Despite what I too heard several different announcers say this season, as well as multiple fans sitting around me, no sliding with the ball is not traveling. Once you stop, if you roll over, try to get up, etc with the ball still in your possession, yes it is traveling. I am sure King Rollo will correct any details I may have wrong on my explanation

EDIT- What is frustrating is the number of officials (again- lower level, I sure hope no NCAA officials are this bad) as well as coaches, who do not know this rule or understand what I believe is quite simple to understand.

Last edited by ClaytonFlyerFan; 04-16-2018 at 01:56 PM..
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:46 PM
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If you are laying on your back with your head and shoulders on the ground and your feet in the air, your butt is also likely in the air. So... depending on the amount of junk in the trunk, this might need to go to the monitor to see if any part of the butt remained on the ground. Maybe he was laying on his stomach? We need more details!!

But of course, this entire line of thinking is most likely wrong, so I'm just typing this for the fun of joining the insanity.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:53 PM
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Player has to be holding or dribbling entirely in the front court to establish front court possession. If position was established by butt and butt is in back court, it's not over and back. If butt didn't move and butt established position, then I don't see traveling either, regardless of leg movement.
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Old 04-16-2018, 02:09 PM
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No call. Sliding is not traveling. Butt remained stationary. Possession was never established in the front court.
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:58 PM
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Reason I went with over back was a game I attended a year ago to watch neighbors daughter play HS bball.

Her team was bringing ball down court and crossed mid court when opposing players jumped on her to trap her in the corner. She immediately throws the ball over her head to guard opposite side of court who had not yet crossed mid court. Other guard (neighbors daughter) jumps in air catching ball back court with momentum carrying her cross midcourt where her feet landed. Refs called over and back even though the other guard did not have feet in backcourt when caught ball. Refs claimed ball was established in front court then crossed back into backcourt even though the player was smart enough to not catch it inside backcourt.

There argument was ball broke the plane.

Last edited by Avid Flyer; 04-16-2018 at 07:01 PM..
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Old 04-16-2018, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Reason I went with over back was a game I attended a year ago to watch neighbors daughter play HS bball.

Her team was bringing ball down court and crossed mid court when opposing players jumped on her to trap her in the corner. She immediately throws the ball over her head to guard opposite side of court who had not yet crossed mid court. Other guard (neighbors daughter) jumps in air catching ball back court with momentum carrying her cross midcourt where her feet landed. Refs called over and back even though the other guard did not have feet in backcourt when caught ball. Refs claimed ball was established in front court then crossed back into backcourt even though the player was smart enough to not catch it inside backcourt.

There argument was ball broke the plane.
Unless your state plays by their own rules, the refs butchered that call.
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Old 04-16-2018, 09:04 PM
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Re: Avid Flyer's scenario

I would think that it's over and back because the player catching it was established to be in the backcourt (hadn't yet set foot in the frontcourt). Not because the ball broke the plane.

But that's without reading the rules.

Last edited by FlyingArrow; 04-17-2018 at 10:52 AM..
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Old 04-16-2018, 09:25 PM
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Yeah its the show me state. Obviously her coach etc argued the call to no avail then promptly filed game under protest with the head refs etc. Game was close as several calls seemed to go against there team as there was 3 min left and opposing team was making a come back.

Fortunately her team won so nothing more I guess.

Glad I'm not a ref ump or whatever have to make split second decisions and no matter what someone will be unhappy.
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:21 AM
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FWIW, this situation occurred last Saturday in an AAU tournament. I was the trail official so it wasn't my call...and my partner is an OHSAA HOF ref, so I know it was right.

Or was it?!

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Old Yesterday, 11:15 AM
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Yesterday a video of UD women playing VCU in 2014 A10 quarterfinals showed up so I watched it. Midway Edwards for UD was bring ball down court and was immediately trapped as she crossed mid court. Edwards threw the ball over her head to a trailing guard opposite court. The guard was still backcourt. She jumped in air and slapped ball forward to another UD player in front court....refs made no call as play continued.
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Old Yesterday, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
FWIW, this situation occurred last Saturday in an AAU tournament. I was the trail official so it wasn't my call...and my partner is an OHSAA HOF ref, so I know it was right.

Or was it?!

I've always hated the "it wasn't my call" stuff. I get it. I do. But it happened to me last week when one of our guys got fouled going to the basket. No call. Next stoppage I asked the ref why there wasn't a call. His response was, "I saw the foul, but I can't call it because it's his call (nodding towards the other ref).

If you see a foul, or an infraction of some kind, you should call it.

I know that's not how it works, but it drives me crazy.
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
I've always hated the "it wasn't my call" stuff. I get it. I do. But it happened to me last week when one of our guys got fouled going to the basket. No call. Next stoppage I asked the ref why there wasn't a call. His response was, "I saw the foul, but I can't call it because it's his call (nodding towards the other ref).

If you see a foul, or an infraction of some kind, you should call it.

I know that's not how it works, but it drives me crazy.
'Ball watching' is a mortal sin in basketball officiating...so is throwing your partner under the bus. I'm not saying the ref you talked to was right or wrong, but I will say he's an idiot for saying what he did.
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
FWIW, this situation occurred last Saturday in an AAU tournament. I was the trail official so it wasn't my call...and my partner is an OHSAA HOF ref, so I know it was right.

Or was it?!

Why was this not your call as the trail official? In the situation you described shouldn't your co worker be under or near the basket the offense is trying to break the press and score at?
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
'Ball watching' is a mortal sin in basketball officiating...so is throwing your partner under the bus. I'm not saying the ref you talked to was right or wrong, but I will say he's an idiot for saying what he did.
So what is the protocol here? Let's say the guy who's responsible for the call doesn't see it, but one of the other officials clearly sees a violation. Are officials really taught to not make the call? I find that hard to believe.

My guess has always been that when that takes place and nothing is called it's because one official doesn't want to "show up" the one that missed the call, especially if the one that missed the call is the lead official with more seniority/clout, etc.
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
'Ball watching' is a mortal sin in basketball officiating...so is throwing your partner under the bus. I'm not saying the ref you talked to was right or wrong, but I will say he's an idiot for saying what he did.
Oh for sure. I couldn't believe he said it. Usually they just give the "I didn't see it" or something like that - which is fine.
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
Why was this not your call as the trail official? In the situation you described shouldn't your co worker be under or near the basket the offense is trying to break the press and score at?
Against a press, the 'lead' is at midcourt and I'm on the back baseline...so he has the front of the action and I have the back. As play moves forward, so do we.

Originally Posted by Lowd&ProUD View Post
So what is the protocol here? Let's say the guy who's responsible for the call doesn't see it, but one of the other officials clearly sees a violation. Are officials really taught to not make the call? I find that hard to believe.

My guess has always been that when that takes place and nothing is called it's because one official doesn't want to "show up" the one that missed the call, especially if the one that missed the call is the lead official with more seniority/clout, etc.
You call your 'primary' unless there is overlap (3-man crew)...if you get some raw official who wants to call everything he sees, all he will do is follow the ball and ignore the off-the-ball contact. If this rogue official makes calls in my 'primary' it means 2 things...(1) he's ignoring off-the-ball play and (2) making the other official look ignorant. Should an evaluator be there observing both (or all 3 officials), and assuming the rogue official got every call correct, he would be ripped apart/demoted for not doing HIS job. ..which is to know and officiate his primary.

Just because you see contact doesn't mean there is a foul...which is why you don't make someone else's call(s). They have a different angle and perspective that MUST be respected. It's this way with every sport.

Have you ever seen a 2nd base umpire call a player 'safe' at 1st base? NO! It's not his call.

Or a home plate ump call a base stealer out at 2nd? No...it's not his call.

Should a Biology teacher grade your Calculus quiz if they see it in the teacher's lounge? No, it's not his subject.

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So what is the correct call??
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Against a press, the 'lead' is at midcourt and I'm on the back baseline...so he has the front of the action and I have the back. As play moves forward, so do we.



]

Well it sounds like the play was moving forward if the ball was at midcourt already. Just saying, in fast paced break the press action, I guess I do not see how that would not be your call as if the ball is at half court the lead should be on down court in position to make any calls in or around the basket if they were to drive.

Yep, instead of officiating my new hobby will be sitting in the stands acting like the rest of the fans thinking I know it all and referees are all dumb
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
They have a different angle and perspective that MUST be respected. It's this way with every sport.

Have you ever seen a 2nd base umpire call a player 'safe' at 1st base? NO! It's not his call.

Or a home plate ump call a base stealer out at 2nd? No...it's not his call.
I hear ya, and I agree in theory. You definitely don't want a rogue official trying to call the whole game. I'm not talking about a responsibility for making every call. I'm talking about correcting a clear mistake.

Just because one official is responsible for the call and it's in his area, doesn't alway mean he has the best position. Other players get in the way, etc.

Let's say it's a 3 official situation. The 2 officials who are not responsible for the call see a clear violation. Basically, one guy in the building missed the call and it's the guy responsible for the call.

Are the other 2 officials really instructed just to look the other way because it's not their call?

The bottom line question is this...

Are officials taught that the end goal is to call your area and nothing else or is the end goal to get the call right, regardless of who calls it?

As a fan, I want the latter.

One of the things I appreciate is when officials huddle up to talk about what they saw and make sure they get the call right. Seems to happen more in football and even baseball more so than basketball for some reason.

While I don't watch anywhere near as much NBA as college ball, it feels like NBA refs are more open to having an official overrule another's call. They usually run over to the in-area official to share what they saw first, then overrule the call if the in-area guy isn't adamant his call is correct.
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Against a press, the 'lead' is at midcourt and I'm on the back baseline...so he has the front of the action and I have the back. As play moves forward, so do we.



You call your 'primary' unless there is overlap (3-man crew)...if you get some raw official who wants to call everything he sees, all he will do is follow the ball and ignore the off-the-ball contact. If this rogue official makes calls in my 'primary' it means 2 things...(1) he's ignoring off-the-ball play and (2) making the other official look ignorant. Should an evaluator be there observing both (or all 3 officials), and assuming the rogue official got every call correct, he would be ripped apart/demoted for not doing HIS job. ..which is to know and officiate his primary.

Just because you see contact doesn't mean there is a foul...which is why you don't make someone else's call(s). They have a different angle and perspective that MUST be respected. It's this way with every sport.

Have you ever seen a 2nd base umpire call a player 'safe' at 1st base? NO! It's not his call.

Or a home plate ump call a base stealer out at 2nd? No...it's not his call.

Should a Biology teacher grade your Calculus quiz if they see it in the teacher's lounge? No, it's not his subject.

Should a coworker tell you that your wife has nice ta-tas? No, unless your a member at DCC.

Make sense??? If you're still confused, I'll let the Rock explain it...

I understand what you're saying but if I was coaching and there was a blatant travel, double dribble or other violation and only one official saw it and it was the one who's call it wasn't, I would hope it still gets called.
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Originally Posted by Lowd&ProUD View Post
I hear ya, and I agree in theory. You definitely don't want a rogue official trying to call the whole game. I'm not talking about a responsibility for making every call. I'm talking about correcting a clear mistake.
Think of it in baseball terms. Imagine there's a guy on second and the batter hits a Texas leaguer down the left field line. The runner on second sees it's going to fall so he takes off. The ball barely hits the chalk and the runner scores easily.

Then the manager appeals the call on the runner: did he step on 3rd base or miss it? If the 3rd base ump watching the ball for the fair / foul call says "I saw him hit 3rd base" the manager is going to ask "how is that possible, when it was behind your back and you were responsible for watching the ball?!?! In that case, I appeal the fair / foul call." Then the 3rd base ump says "no I saw that too, it was fair."

You can't be watching both. If you saw it, you were incompetent -- not a hero. It's only "clear" if you're looking at it, and if you're looking at it, you clearly MISSED something else you were supposed to be watching.
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Think of it in baseball terms. Imagine there's a guy on second and the batter hits a Texas leaguer down the left field line. The runner on second sees it's going to fall so he takes off. The ball barely hits the chalk and the runner scores easily.

Then the manager appeals the call on the runner: did he step on 3rd base or miss it? If the 3rd base ump watching the ball for the fair / foul call says "I saw him hit 3rd base" the manager is going to ask "how is that possible, when it was behind your back and you were responsible for watching the ball?!?! In that case, I appeal the fair / foul call." Then the 3rd base ump says "no I saw that too, it was fair."

You can't be watching both. If you saw it, you were incompetent -- not a hero. It's only "clear" if you're looking at it, and if you're looking at it, you clearly MISSED something else you were supposed to be watching.
You can't trick me with baseball situations cuz I'm an OHSAA UMPIRE TOO!!

In your case, the 3rd base ump is responsible for fair/foul and the home ump watches the bases. Case closed!

NEXT!
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I know I've seen dozens of times when a ref 45 ft away from the action calls a foul when the ref closer to play didnt. Always questioned how a ref fartherest from play makes the call.
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
I know I've seen dozens of times when a ref 45 ft away from the action calls a foul when the ref closer to play didnt. Always questioned how a ref fartherest from play makes the call.
The closer you are, the harder it is to see everything. It's why baseline (lead) officials try to get 5'-8' behind the basket when getting in position. I've been in small gyms (Oakwood, Carroll) where you're on top of the action and it's hard to see much except what's directly in front of you. Imagine 2 big men on the low post...offense lobs it down to the low post and the big man holds the ball over his head...at Oakwood or Carroll or ?????? you're so close that if you watch the ball (which is what you're trained to do) you can't see their feet and may miss a travel. You're much better off being 10'-12' back, but the gym doesn't give you room. So you do your best... It's also why the drunk in 202 Row F needs to STFU...if 45' is too far away to make the call, it only makes sense that 145' is worse.

Or maybe the ref was 45' feet away but the action occurred in his Primary so he was paying attention, anticipating the action and making the right call.
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
It's also why the drunk in 202 Row F needs to STFU..
I see what you did there. Your so cute
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It's also why the drunk in 202 Row F needs to STFU.

Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
I see what you did there. Your so cute
I resemble that comment.
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
You can't trick me with baseball situations cuz I'm an OHSAA UMPIRE TOO!!

In your case, the 3rd base ump is responsible for fair/foul and the home ump watches the bases. Case closed!

NEXT!
That was my point. I know more about baseball rules than basketball.
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