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04-06-2012, 11:41 PM
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Javon Thomas reclassifying to 2013?
This was mentioned in the recruits thread, but probably deserves its own thread.
on the A-10 boards it was mentioned that jevon might be reclassifying to 2013 a twitter account was linked to with the info. here it is:
@SteveKellerNRR: Javon Thomas is going to Quality Education in NC & reclass to 2013. PG is athletic & best going to basket. Settling in as good Mid DI.
anyone know anything about this?
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04-07-2012, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic08
This was mentioned in the recruits thread, but probably deserves its own thread.
on the A-10 boards it was mentioned that jevon might be reclassifying to 2013 a twitter account was linked to with the info. here it is:
@SteveKellerNRR: Javon Thomas is going to Quality Education in NC & reclass to 2013. PG is athletic & best going to basket. Settling in as good Mid DI.
anyone know anything about this?
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2 questions
(1) I thought he made a recent official visit which he couldn't do unless he qualified
(2) This sounds like he will be going to Quality Education but he's already there
Dec. 2011: Javon Thomas, a 6'1 senior point guard of Quality Education Prep (Winston Salem, NC), is a very good athlete who will beckon the high majors in hordes to come and woo the Queens transplant. Thomas has very good quicks and leaping ability. We have noticed in the past that he really excels with a skilled big man using high pick sets. Thomas only cause for concern may be the academic end but the move to Quality Education Academy should help remedy the concerns as they are known for getting past the NCAA's roadblocks.
http://ncpreps.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1302975
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04-07-2012, 07:21 AM
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I know he never actually made his official visit, for whatever that's worth. Others have said he deleted his Twitter account, so I don't know what that means either. Doesn't sound real good from what I've read so far.
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04-07-2012, 09:03 AM
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I have been concerned about Javon because of our continued recruitment of point and combo guards. we certainly need another option and I would prefer it wasn't dmo. I think that dmo would struggle against really good point guards.
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04-07-2012, 09:41 AM
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not good news. boo
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04-07-2012, 10:10 AM
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So does Vee Sanford become the back up point then ?
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04-07-2012, 10:44 AM
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Maybe Doug Harris will look into tnis and see if the jevan Harris reclassification is happening.
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04-07-2012, 11:38 AM
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I hope this isn't true. Playing with a Freshman at point the year after next could be problematic. Not to mention having no ready back up for KD this coming year.
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04-07-2012, 12:33 PM
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What's strange about this is that there has not been any more news good or bad??
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04-07-2012, 03:36 PM
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Aren't we still looking at Ridenour for 2012. If so, we better grab him.
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04-07-2012, 03:39 PM
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for the time being i'm going to assume its not true. first no one else has reported it, secondly didn't the school announce along with jalen robinson they had signed their LOI's? because devon scott wasn't mentioned at the time and people were wondering why he wasn't mentioned. then a few days later he was officially announced.
if the school announced jevon had signed the LOI, they could announce he was released out of the LOI and re-classifying right?
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04-07-2012, 04:14 PM
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He is unlikely to qualify. You can take an official with a qualifying test score but still not qualify due to high school grades. Both Scott and Thomas had issues with both test and grades.
Chance of Ridenour qualifying is also very low.
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04-07-2012, 04:35 PM
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IMO Dillard and Parker were better than Dillard and just about any pg recruited at this point not named Jevon Thomas.
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04-08-2012, 12:05 AM
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This is one of the drawbacks when you recruit academically challenged players - it's beginning to look like we're into April with only 2 guards on the 2012 roster - little more pressure on the coaches to sign some players
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04-08-2012, 02:00 AM
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The following article makes no mention of Jevon reclassifying.
http://www.nbebasketball.com/w3/2012...eport-part-ii/
One would think the author of a recruiting website would have mentioned if Jevon were planning on reclassifying. He did have this to say about Jevon:
Jevon Thomas (Team Melo 2012) – signed with Dayton – Thomas’ athleticism at the point is jarring if you haven’t seen him play before. The sub 6 footer flies up and down the court with the ball in his hands and exploded around the rim for multiple dunks on the day. His jumper was not falling but he made the adjustment and attacked the rim every time. Thomas needs to become better at running a team and operating in the half court but he’s an exciting athlete in the back court for the Flyers.
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Nothing about reclassifying in the recruiting updates section either. On a side note, he does have some nice things to say about Terrence Samuel, a 2013 PG (Rivals 4 star and #62 on their top 150), who has offers from "Louisville, Cincinnati, Temple, Iowa State, Pittsburgh, Virginia, Penn State, Creighton, Dayton, and Villanova," according to the article.
It seems like the author had access to a lot of the players and probably would have mentioned if Jevon were in fact reclassifying. I'd say this Steve Keller fellow either misunderstood what someone told him and made a mistake, or he just got some really bad info.
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04-08-2012, 10:22 AM
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Actually, that's pretty much what they wrote about London Warren:
*can get to the rim anytime he wants
*needs work on his J
*needs experience running a team
*speed to burn
You be the judge as to whether that's good or bad---everyone will have an opinion.
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04-08-2012, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer
Actually, that's pretty much what they wrote about London Warren:
*can get to the rim anytime he wants
*needs work on his J
*needs experience running a team
*speed to burn
You be the judge as to whether that's good or bad---everyone will have an opinion.
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Yes, but London needed a LOT of work on his J - a LOT! I don't think too many DI recruits could have a worse looking J than London.
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04-08-2012, 11:27 AM
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Doing a google search of "Javon Thomas reclassifying to 2013" you can find articles dated 2010 where yes, he was indeed going to reclassify to the 2013 class. Then articles dated 2011 where he had decided not to reclassify. Combine this with the article posted a few posts back by UDandBeer along with the lack of additional info from reliable sources the past few days, and my hunch (hope) is that the person who tweeted this had some very old old info and had not looked at the dates on the articles he was reading.
From 2010- http://www.zagsblog.com/2010/07/09/j...-st-benedicts/
From 2011- http://www.therecruitscoop.com/jevon...omes-adversity
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04-08-2012, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan
Yes, but London needed a LOT of work on his J - a LOT! I don't think too many DI recruits could have a worse looking J than London.
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Oh I agree on London's J, but these player profiles leave sooo much to the imagination. Plus the writer generally has a bias one way or another, or simply copied some printed rag.
The phrase "his jumper wasn't falling so he made adjustments...." might really mean it hasn't fallen for several seasons. We just don't know from the printed word. My point is that most writers try not to ruin a kid's chances for a scholarship so the deficiencies are wordsmithed. Thiago Cordiero was characterized as a "prolific shot-blocker". Charles Little was runnerup Mr. B-ball Tennessee with "terrific athletic ability, and a well-rounded game". They were half right.
I do trust Arch's ability to recruit the pieces he needs for us to be good. I just don't trust the ratings and reviews until we see him on the court.
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04-08-2012, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan
Doing a google search of "Javon Thomas reclassifying to 2013" you can find articles dated 2010 where yes, he was indeed going to reclassify to the 2013 class. Then articles dated 2011 where he had decided not to reclassify. Combine this with the article posted a few posts back by UDandBeer along with the lack of additional info from reliable sources the past few days, and my hunch (hope) is that the person who tweeted this had some very old old info and had not looked at the dates on the articles he was reading.
From 2010- http://www.zagsblog.com/2010/07/09/j...-st-benedicts/
From 2011- http://www.therecruitscoop.com/jevon...omes-adversity
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Wow, tough to lose a brother at such a young age- that can have an incalculable effect on anybody. If he ends up getting delayed a year (while that would hurt UD next year), sounds like he'd be well worth the wait for. Hope he just ends up at UD period. Pulling for the guy big time- he could become a major factor one day and I'm willing to wait to see him play... Whenever that might be. Go JT- make it happen.
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04-08-2012, 01:28 PM
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04-08-2012, 03:26 PM
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No one will know for sure until he gets final grades and sees where he is at. There won't be a big formal announcement most likely. It is certainly plausible he would reassify. He changed schools this year in an effort to qualify. That is paraphrasing Thomas' words. If he doesn't qualify I don't expect him to ever enroll at UD. If Scott doesn't qualify he may be in school as a partial.
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04-09-2012, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic08
for the time being i'm going to assume its not true. first no one else has reported it, secondly didn't the school announce along with jalen robinson they had signed their LOI's? because devon scott wasn't mentioned at the time and people were wondering why he wasn't mentioned. then a few days later he was officially announced.
if the school announced jevon had signed the LOI, they could announce he was released out of the LOI and re-classifying right?
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Robinson, Scott, and Thomas all signed LOI's with UD. And UD may not have released Thomas from his LOI even if he is reclassifying.
http://www.daytonflyers.com/news/?article_id=8325
"MILLER ANNOUNCES 2011 RECRUITING CLASS
Head Coach Archie Miller has announced the signing of three top high school players to letters of intent. They are 6-foot-9 high school teammates Jalen Robinson and Devon Scott from Ohio powerhouse Columbus Northland High School, and coveted 5-foot-11 point guard Jevon Thomas from Queens, N.Y. by way of Quality Education Academy in Winston-Salem, N.C."
Both Robinson and Scott have taken official visits to UD. You have to have a qualifying test score to take an official visit.
http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayto...h-1313098.html
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04-09-2012, 12:59 PM
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if he reclassifies I don't believe a release is needed. If he doesn't enroll at UD in the fall of 2012 he can go anywhere he wants in 2013. if he wants to attend somewhere else on 2012 he would need a release.
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04-09-2012, 02:44 PM
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According to this guy, Jevon says he needs another year:
http://twitter.com/#!/NYPost_Brazille
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04-09-2012, 02:52 PM
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Looks like Archie needs to take it up a notch in the coming weeks. Going into next year with only two guards on the roster could be disasterous. I'm sure the coaching staff was aware of this possibility and have a backup plan. Hopefully they can land at least one (preferrably two) guard that will be eligible to play in 2012-13.
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04-09-2012, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic08
for the time being i'm going to assume its not true. first no one else has reported it, secondly didn't the school announce along with jalen robinson they had signed their LOI's? because devon scott wasn't mentioned at the time and people were wondering why he wasn't mentioned. then a few days later he was officially announced.
if the school announced jevon had signed the LOI, they could announce he was released out of the LOI and re-classifying right?
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FWIW, it's my understanding that you don't have to be qualified to sign a LOI.
And I assume the final qualification certification status reports are sent out by the NCAA Clearinghouse within a couple of weeks of the player's graduation from high school
Zach Braziller @NYPost_Brazille Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Source said it's not an academic issue with Thomas. He feels he needs another year. #boyshoops
1h Zach Braziller @NYPost_Brazille Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Jevon Thomas will not attend Dayton in the fall, per source. He remains committed to the school, will do another year at Quality Education.
I wonder if he and the coaching staff are in mutual agreement as to him needing another year?
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04-09-2012, 05:00 PM
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I do not understand how he needs another year. His numbers jump off the page. It would be better to learn from someone that is as good as Dillard than come in the next year. Redshirting would be better. This could kill him in the pecking order. There is no way another PG will not get signed.
If he and Scott are not available next year, this places a very different light on next season.
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04-09-2012, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by John C.
I do not understand how he needs another year. His numbers jump off the page. It would be better to learn from someone that is as good as Dillard than come in the next year. Redshirting would be better. This could kill him in the pecking order. There is no way another PG will not get signed.
If he and Scott are not available next year, this places a very different light on next season.
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I agree with all of that, this doesn't make any sense at all if his academics are not an issue.
I don't know, maybe he wants to start as a freshman, and he's planning on heading elsewhere after a year of prep school, or the staff told him he would be the pg after Dillard left, and the staff is just going to bring in a combo guard for 2012 to back up Dillard, and the combo guard would move to the 2 spot in 2013? But still, if he was assured of the pg job in 2013, why wouldn't he just redshirt? Maybe prep school would be better than redshirting?
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04-09-2012, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2
I agree with all of that, this doesn't make any sense at all if his academics are not an issue.
I don't know, maybe he wants to start as a freshman, and he's planning on heading elsewhere after a year of prep school, or the staff told him he would be the pg after Dillard left, and the staff is just going to bring in a combo guard for 2012 to back up Dillard, and the combo guard would move to the 2 spot in 2013? But still, if he was assured of the pg job in 2013, why wouldn't he just redshirt? Maybe prep school would be better than redshirting?
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He'd be able to play live games, and there's probably no substitute for real competition. However, as a redshirt he'd spend the year getting to know Archie's system, which is probably far more important. I don't like the sound of this at all.
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04-09-2012, 07:57 PM
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Doesn't make sense if it isn't grades. I suspect it is regardless of what someone tweets including administration saying we want to see more than just het qualified. Wouldn't be the first time that has happened.
It is also a way to go elsewhere if you now feel under recruited.
Not impossible UD starts the season with just one freshman again.
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04-09-2012, 08:35 PM
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i'd say chances of thomas coming to UD slim to none at this point. i'm also in agreement with UDDoug, my guess it is academics, they're trying to save face. if he can't get the grades now, when will he ever.
i'd focus on looking elsewhere at this point. even if its true jevon has told the staff he's still committed, i'd think of offering someone else.
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04-09-2012, 09:04 PM
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IMO he is looking for a release from his LOI because he has found a preferable landing place
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04-09-2012, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Sea Bass
IMO he is looking for a release from his LOI because he has found a preferable landing place
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i think someone mentioned if he re-classifies for 2013 he doesn't have to be let out of his LOI. if he wanted to go somewhere in the fall he would. not sure thats the case, unless he came to the staff and told them he no longer wants to go to UD. archie and co got upset and refuse to let him out of his LOI. doubtful though, don't think theres ever a been a time UD has done something like that.
i just dont think he'll make the grades to get in, on top of more than likely archie looking and probably finding another guard for next year. he'll prob look elsewhere
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04-09-2012, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Sea Bass
IMO he is looking for a release from his LOI because he has found a preferable landing place
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Rumors are afloat here in St. Louis area that there has been some tampering with his recruitment and commitment. Funny how rumors start yet seem to come true more often than not. Being discussed he wants a better offer and got one (under the table), don't be surprised if he ends up at another A-10 program next year, and its not SLU.
Will have to revisit this thread again next year this time to see if there is any meat to the rumor. Don't know if its pure speculation or if they in fact know something so will have to wait and see. Anyone's guess I suppose.
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04-09-2012, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer
Rumors are afloat here in St. Louis area that there has been some tampering with his recruitment and commitment. Funny how rumors start yet seem to come true more often than not. Being discussed he wants a better offer and got one (under the table), don't be surprised if he ends up at another A-10 program next year, and its not SLU.
Will have to revisit this thread again next year this time to see if there is any meat to the rumor. Don't know if its pure speculation or if they in fact know something so will have to wait and see. Anyone's guess I suppose.
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C'mon Avid, you've got to name names with a post like this!
As I posted in the recruits thread, next year is looking like it may be a couple years away again.
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04-10-2012, 12:37 AM
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The feeling around here (St. Louis) is that there is so much pressure on winning that teams use non staff to sniff out possible defections or transfers. That way they keep their noses clean. Also it is not always the other team that is making the sniff, could be the player or family or friends of the player.
Example would be TM and his finding out that Weber and Illinois would give him a scholarship if he walked on.
Another example would be Caliprari sending someone after the PR kid from Troy HS and taking him out of the country after he recommitted to Dayton.
Things go on behind the scenes all the time but most are careful not to let it point back to them.
The discussion regarding JT was that some players prefer a ready made team that could go far in the NCAA than being one to possibly take the team there, and JT could be one of them.
Tampering can come from either side. But considering its the me generation loyalties take a back seat. While most recruits honor their commitments there are those who keep an eye on the bigger prize and when they think they see an opening sniff it out and go for it.
For JT if he was truly committed to UD he would be best served to red shirt and learn Archies system and be ready for prime time the following year. His choice seems to indicate he'd rather go the prep school route and play and open his recruitment than stay and be limited to practice sessions and no travel.
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04-10-2012, 02:22 AM
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Thanks for the info, Avid. Somehow this scenario of behind the scenes recruiting makes me think of Huggy Bear. Maybe he needs a back up PG to give JS a break.
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04-10-2012, 07:11 AM
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What did I miss?
Originally Posted by John C.
If he and Scott are not available next year, this places a very different light on next season.
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Sorry if I missed this... what is up with Scott now?
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04-10-2012, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer
Another example would be Caliprari sending someone after the PR kid from Troy HS and taking him out of the country after he recommitted to Dayton.
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Good post. I'm not familiar with this incident, what was this player's name, or when did this happen?
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04-10-2012, 08:32 AM
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04-10-2012, 08:41 AM
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and the runner was his former player Edgar Padilla
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04-10-2012, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by MD Flyer Pride
Sorry if I missed this... what is up with Scott now?
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It has always been questionable if Scott would qualify. That's one reason he and UC parted ways, just like Thomas and StJohns. UC concluded Scott would not qualify and went in a different direction. My understanding is Scott was making progress but had a LOT of work to do.
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04-10-2012, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2
Good post. I'm not familiar with this incident, what was this player's name, or when did this happen?
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Alex Carmona, as Chris mentioned above.
Nuts and bults, Alex was a star HS basketball player in Puerto Rico, where Calipari had successfully recruited several basketball players from during his UMASS days. Calipari "stashed" Carmona with a foster family in the Troy area shortly after Brooks Hall had graduated from Troy and was playing at UD (1998ish??) Carmona was a verbal commit to Memphis, played basketball at Troy for maybe a season or two, when during the summer before his senior year he decided he'd rather stay in the area, near his foster family and play for OP at Dayton. All of a sudden, "issues" arose with his 'status' and HS transcripts. I'm not even sure that he ever finished out his classes at Troy before going back to Puerto Rico. Last I saw he was playing professionally overseas somewhere, played sparingly for some Puetro Rico national team (not sure if it was their main team, or a "junior team")
That is the story as I remember it, Calipari came off seeming very fishy in the whole affair, though I doubt I know the whole story. I'd love to sit in a room with OP & Calipari and watch each of them hash out their verion of this story. Alex was a bit time recruit, top 100 player on many sites. Don't know how he would have turned out as a player, nor do I know what he's up to today, but he missed out on a free education. I'm not sure education was all that important to him, which was part of the problem, he came out of a pretty rough area, not sure it was ever nutured until he got to the states.
Calipari likely felt like Troy was a pretty safe place for him to go to HS. UD had just gone thru the O'Brien years, OSU was fresh off the Randy Ayers scandal, neither would have been programs he followed his entire life, HS basketball was strong in the area, but Troy was far enough removed to prevent a bunch of top level schools from bombarding each game. I don't know if he ever played AAU while here, but AAU you back then wasn't quite what it has become today.
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04-10-2012, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Medford
Alex Carmona, as Chris mentioned above.
Nuts and bults, Alex was a star HS basketball player in Puerto Rico, where Calipari had successfully recruited several basketball players from during his UMASS days. Calipari "stashed" Carmona with a foster family in the Troy area shortly after Brooks Hall had graduated from Troy and was playing at UD (1998ish??) Carmona was a verbal commit to Memphis, played basketball at Troy for maybe a season or two, when during the summer before his senior year he decided he'd rather stay in the area, near his foster family and play for OP at Dayton. All of a sudden, "issues" arose with his 'status' and HS transcripts. I'm not even sure that he ever finished out his classes at Troy before going back to Puerto Rico. Last I saw he was playing professionally overseas somewhere, played sparingly for some Puetro Rico national team (not sure if it was their main team, or a "junior team")
That is the story as I remember it, Calipari came off seeming very fishy in the whole affair, though I doubt I know the whole story. I'd love to sit in a room with OP & Calipari and watch each of them hash out their verion of this story. Alex was a bit time recruit, top 100 player on many sites. Don't know how he would have turned out as a player, nor do I know what he's up to today, but he missed out on a free education. I'm not sure education was all that important to him, which was part of the problem, he came out of a pretty rough area, not sure it was ever nutured until he got to the states.
Calipari likely felt like Troy was a pretty safe place for him to go to HS. UD had just gone thru the O'Brien years, OSU was fresh off the Randy Ayers scandal, neither would have been programs he followed his entire life, HS basketball was strong in the area, but Troy was far enough removed to prevent a bunch of top level schools from bombarding each game. I don't know if he ever played AAU while here, but AAU you back then wasn't quite what it has become today.
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Great post. Carmona had signed a LOI with UD, but the LOI only binds the player to the school for one year, and there were issues with Carmona's high school eligibility. He went from being in the class of 2002 to being in the class of 2003. So, I guess Memphis didn't tamper with Carmona if the LOI had expired.
He went from high school straight to pro ball in Puerto Rico, he never played for Memphis. If you read the DDN article below, the whole situation was very messy and confusing in regards to his eligibility. Wright State coach Ed Schilling was recruiting Carmona also.
Carmona's family situation was very challenging. He came from a poor background and from a rough area in Puerto Rico. I doubt Carmona spoke much, if any, English.
Padilla sounds innocent, the DDN article made it sound like Padilla was just trying to help Puerto Rican basketball players get to the U.S. to play basketball.
"Schilling suggested eight schools in the Dayton area that Padilla could try. Not all of them were interested.
'One school,' Padilla said. 'I think it was Chaminade-Julienne, said, ‘I'm sorry, but it would be too hard. We can't see someone who speaks no English being able to go here.’ '
Star Weng, a C-J graduate who is the girlfriend of one of Padilla's closest friends, Rolando Hourruitiner, suggested several Catholic churches that might be willing to help, including St. Patrick’s in Troy.
At first they called back and said no, Padilla said. But then Deb Grant, a volunteer youth pastor at St. Patrick's, called."
3 stars from Rivals. According to Rivals, he was from the class of 2003. Offers from UD, Memphis(Calipari), Cincinnati, and Ohio State. He committed to Memphis on 7/8/2003.
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketb...ex-Carmona-317
"Alex Carmona, the highly regarded small forward who was not allowed to compete as a senior at Troy (OH) HS and returned to his native Puerto Rico, had committed to Dayton before the final state ruling. However, he didn't sign with the A10 school." That contradicts the Scout site that says he signed a LOI with UD on 11/21/2001.
http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.c...asp?CID=108867
4 stars from Scout. According to Scout, he was from the class of 2002. Again, offers from UD, Memphis, Cincinnati, and Ohio State. He visited Memphis on 9/8/2001.
http://dayton.scout.com/a.z?s=429&p=8&c=1&nid=11357
http://dayton.scout.com/a.z?s=429&p=...cfg=bb&yr=2002
Here's a lengthy DDN article discussing the whole situation.
http://www.daytondailynews.com/proje...uertorico.html
Alejandro "Bimbo" Carmona's Wikipedia page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bimbo_Carmona
Last edited by ud2; 04-10-2012 at 12:39 PM..
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04-10-2012, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer
Rumors are afloat here in St. Louis area that there has been some tampering with his recruitment and commitment. Funny how rumors start yet seem to come true more often than not. Being discussed he wants a better offer and got one (under the table), don't be surprised if he ends up at another A-10 program next year, and its not SLU.
Will have to revisit this thread again next year this time to see if there is any meat to the rumor. Don't know if its pure speculation or if they in fact know something so will have to wait and see. Anyone's guess I suppose.
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Well, if he is waiting for a better offer from a A-10 school, the list is pretty narrow. Temple? Xavier? Not SLU based on the post (and arguably not better). UMass (arguably not better - but closer to home). I can't imagine Richmond, Rhode Island, the Dukes, or any of the Philly schools are that much of a "better" offer. Mayber St Joes. If he wants an annual NCAA participant, that really only leaves Temple and Xavier. Imagine the reception if this kid goes to Xavier (that is my guess).
We really need guards next year. And this kid is staying at Diploma U for reasons other than academics when he could get real playing time at UD behind one heck of a mentor? Come on. Something stinks like crazy in this whole situation - we are getting screwed no question about it. The silence from the kid and the DDN is also deafening. If he does stay even though academics are not an issue, I have to imagine Archie turns the page on the kid no matter how talented he may be. Maybe there are other circumstances dictating this, but I doubt it.
Based on Thomas' background, I always thought he was a risky proposition. Well, we are seeing the downside to that risk. These things always work for XU, but we take a risk and it blows up. Regarding Scott, I don't mind if he is a partial qualifier or redshirts - it may actually be better to space out our bigs a bit.
We have always been missing a part or two from being a really good team. We have been close many times, but never quite there. Well, lack of excellent guard play with good big men may be our theme (and downfall) for the next few years if Archie doesn't pull something out of the hat. So far, it seems like all our recruits have come out of nowhere, so I am not giving up hope yet. But Thomas still hurts. We need talent and Thomas sounded like he had it.
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04-10-2012, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer
The feeling around here (St. Louis) is that there is so much pressure on winning that teams use non staff to sniff out possible defections or transfers. That way they keep their noses clean. Also it is not always the other team that is making the sniff, could be the player or family or friends of the player.
Example would be TM and his finding out that Weber and Illinois would give him a scholarship if he walked on.
Another example would be Caliprari sending someone after the PR kid from Troy HS and taking him out of the country after he recommitted to Dayton.
Things go on behind the scenes all the time but most are careful not to let it point back to them.
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Sibert and UD...... Sorry, had to get that one in there.
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04-10-2012, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by singlet_of_truth
Imagine the reception if this kid goes to Xavier (that is my guess).
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I can't see him going to X, they are fine at pg. They have incoming 5 star recruit Semaj Christon, and they also have sophomore-to-be Dee Davis. X doesn't need any pg's for the next few years.
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04-10-2012, 05:26 PM
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04-10-2012, 06:08 PM
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Strange situation all around. If he has the grades, and has been released by UD, why is he going to prep school for another year (which is just a diploma factory)? I'm not worried about Scott - we can afford to have him sit for a year. But we need - badly - guards for next year. Dillard is a stud, but he will need a breather from time to time.
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04-10-2012, 06:15 PM
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kid didn't want to come. No reason to bring in a malcontent, we know what that can do. Archie did the smart thing and let him go. Like I said originally the "still honoring the commitment" thing was just playing nice. Kind of like when transfers never leave because of basketball, its always something else (family, closer to home, etc) when it always is about the basketball.
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04-10-2012, 07:07 PM
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This is a bummer. Coach Miller now has to be feeling the heat from a renege that invariably happens to programs on occasion. Kind of gives one the LaDontae Henton feeling. Just have to wait and see now. We are now offering playing time for the right Freshman pg, and he can't be a project.
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04-10-2012, 07:08 PM
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The thing that bothers me in these situations is that no one is ever held accountable for their actions. He signs a letter of intent and it means nothing. A coach leaves and players no longer have to live up to their letter of intent. They sign with a school and not a coach. At some ploint in life these kids need to learn that their signature means something. Maybe we should just stop keeping score so everybody goes home thinking they won. God, I miss the old days.......
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04-10-2012, 07:12 PM
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Just my opinion, but to me Archie doesn't appear to be too happy with the situation.
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04-10-2012, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan
Just my opinion, but to me Archie doesn't appear to be too happy with the situation.
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I totally agree about the tone. It feels like the time Trent Meacham broke the news to Gregory and all the kings horses couldn't change his mind.
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04-10-2012, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by John C.
The thing that bothers me in these situations is that no one is ever held accountable for their actions. He signs a letter of intent and it means nothing. A coach leaves and players no longer have to live up to their letter of intent. They sign with a school and not a coach. At some point in life these kids need to learn that their signature means something. Maybe we should just stop keeping score so everybody goes home thinking they won. God, I miss the old days.......
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Agree. And if we don't release him then WE become the bad guy.
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04-10-2012, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by John C.
The thing that bothers me in these situations is that no one is ever held accountable for their actions. He signs a letter of intent and it means nothing. A coach leaves and players no longer have to live up to their letter of intent. They sign with a school and not a coach. At some ploint in life these kids need to learn that their signature means something. Maybe we should just stop keeping score so everybody goes home thinking they won. God, I miss the old days.......
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I agree. The same can be said of coaches. A coach can leave a program and not miss a beat at the new school. A player that transfers must sit out a year. Crazy all the way around!
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04-10-2012, 08:20 PM
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The sky is far from falling, but it sure would be nice if Archie could bring in some unexpected sunshine on signing day
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04-10-2012, 08:29 PM
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I would guess the we will release you but you spend a year in prep s hool is part of the deal. If he was unconditionally released he could go anywhere now.
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04-10-2012, 08:30 PM
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All this makes me feel like when Lebron D Wade and Bosh got together and that is not good.
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04-10-2012, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug
I would guess the we will release you but you spend a year in prep s hool is part of the deal. If he was unconditionally released he could go anywhere now.
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Yes, I'm curious as to whether the release was conditional or not. Tough break, hope Dillard can stay healthy.
Maybe they could just bring in a combo guard that they really want rather than bringing in a point guard out of necessity, that they may not really want. I guess the combo guard thing could depend on what happens with Sibert.
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04-10-2012, 09:45 PM
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Great.
Who do we have at point the year after next? If it's a JUCO he'd better be a good one. And if it's a freshman, he'd better be....well, better than good.
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04-11-2012, 09:20 AM
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Vee Sanford's high school resume included this:
"A McDonald's All-American nominee, he was ranked 30th nationally by Scout.com for point guards. "
He may be a very pleasant surprise.
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04-11-2012, 09:38 AM
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JT - put that where the light don't shine!
Point guards? We don't need no stinkin' point guards!
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04-11-2012, 10:52 AM
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Sanford may, but he and Dillard are currently the only guards on the roster. Hard to have two guards. Derenbecker can play wing, but he's not a guard.
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04-11-2012, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyer69ers
Vee Sanford's high school resume included this:
"A McDonald's All-American nominee, he was ranked 30th nationally by Scout.com for point guards. "
He may be a very pleasant surprise.
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You're right, Rivals and Scout list Sanford as a pg, but ESPN lists him as a shooting guard, so maybe Sanford will be used to spell Dillard, I guess everybody forgot about that.
They could just bank the three scholarships, but that just seems unlikely, I can't believe they'd want to go into 2012-2013 with only 10 scholarship players again.
The unsigned class of 2012 players at this point may have academic/character issues or may just be holding out for a good, late offer. Correct?
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04-11-2012, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug
Sanford may, but he and Dillard are currently the only guards on the roster. Hard to have two guards. Derenbecker can play wing, but he's not a guard.
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He started at SG for LSU as a frosh. I don't know if SG or SF is his ideal spot, but he's played the spot in the past, it wouldn't have completely surprise me (even prior to the Thomas News) if Deranbacker was starting at SG w/ Oliver starting at SF.
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04-11-2012, 11:30 AM
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I would be surprised if starting lineup is not Dillard (1), Vee (2), Derenbecker (3), Benson (4) and Kavs (5). I like Oliver coming off the bench. I have to think that we aren't going into the season with zero guards on the bench. A guard or two who can play next year will be added.
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04-11-2012, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer
I would be surprised if starting lineup is not Dillard (1), Vee (2), Derenbecker (3), Benson (4) and Kavs (5). I like Oliver coming off the bench. I have to think that we aren't going into the season with zero guards on the bench. A guard or two who can play next year will be added.
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Like it all but, I think Oliver(3) need his defence and rebounds.
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04-11-2012, 01:11 PM
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I don't know why people say Derenbecker can't be a guard. He's listed as a forward on our roster, but he played guard at LSU and in high school. LSU message boards indicated he had some defensive difficulties, though, which may be worse at guard than at forward.
If we don't get another decent guard, I think we'll see Vee as the backup PG with Dillard/Vee/Derenbecker being the 3 guard rotation, with each getting 25+ minutes.
I expect we will get some more guards coming in, though.
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04-11-2012, 02:15 PM
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People might be looking at the fact that Matt played 22 minutes/game and averaged barely 1 assist/game. Doesn't sound like pg material.
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04-11-2012, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer
People might be looking at the fact that Matt played 22 minutes/game and averaged barely 1 assist/game. Doesn't sound like pg material.
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Matt isn't a pg. At 6'7" he might play some sg but never a pg.
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04-11-2012, 03:22 PM
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I think we absolutely have to have another point guard with a good handle, and also is defensively minded, or we will have another 20 win, NIT one-and-done team. He doesn't have to be a prolific scorer.
Arch won't be happy with that, nor will a lot of fans.
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04-11-2012, 07:15 PM
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Archie's offense requires more creativity and passing out of the off gurad spot, unless the entire offense goes through Dillard again. Seein a few LSU games a couple years ago I don't see him playing guard.
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04-11-2012, 07:17 PM
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We need more bodies. Hopefully, they are bodies that can play basketball well.
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04-11-2012, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudd
We need more bodies. Hopefully, they are bodies that can play basketball well.
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I would be happy with one SG, one PG, and one body not unlike your avatar.
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04-12-2012, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by John C.
I do not understand how he needs another year. His numbers jump off the page. It would be better to learn from someone that is as good as Dillard than come in the next year. Redshirting would be better. This could kill him in the pecking order. There is no way another PG will not get signed.
If he and Scott are not available next year, this places a very different light on next season.
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According to Archie...
“Academically, Scott and Jalen are both going to be fine,” Miller said. “Some are in more dire straits than others, but I would say both aren’t at an extreme level of concern.”
Scott said he was disciplined for discharging a fire extinguisher, but insisted he’s learned his lesson. “I’m taking care of business on and off the court,” he said.
"As for Scott’s suspension, Miller said: “Those guys all learn the hard way. Each has a different path. But if you pick up a fire extinguisher, you’re going to get in trouble.”
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04-12-2012, 04:10 AM
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Not X's and O's but Jimmy's and Joe's my rear end. Archie will get our team to the promised land. Why do the same coaches end up with great players every year...............think its more development, coaching and X's and O's than anything. My money is on Archie, whoever's name is on the back of the jersey, doesn't matter. It's the coach, and nothing but the coach. How does MK go from bench warmer to class of the A10??? How does KD go from disappointment at an also ran school to possible All American at UD? Its the coach. Nothing but the coach. Give me a coach who can get the most out of his players and I'll give you a great program. Period.
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04-12-2012, 07:54 AM
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Emmetstflyerfan, I agree 100% it is all about the coach and that archie will get it done. But, some of it is getting the jimmies and joes with high potential. I do agree that archie will do a great job on getting the most out of the players. I'm especially anxious to see what DMO has improved on in the off season.
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04-12-2012, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by EmmetStFlyerFan
How does KD go from disappointment at an also ran school to possible All American at UD?
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This is an fyi only... From the DaytonFlyers.com website... Doesn't seem like he did too badly at Southern Illinois. Keep it rolling, KD!
At Southern Illinois
Dillard appeared in 29 games in the 2009-2010 season for the Salukis, including 27 starts. He averaged 12.3 points, 5 assists, 3 rebounds and 1.1 steals per game while shooting .423 from the field (112-265) and .773 from the free throw line (102-132). He also had a stellar assist-to-turnover ratio of 2.03. Dillard led the Missouri Valley Conference in assists per game, was fourth in assist-to-turnover ratio, ninth in steals, and 12th in scor*ing.
Dillard was selected as Freshman of the Year in the Missouri Valley Conference after the 2008-2009 season. During that season, Dillard averaged 12.2 points, 4.2 assists, 2 rebounds, and 1.3 steals while shooting .441 from the field (129-290), including a three-point percent*age of .452 (57-126). Dillard was ranked second in the Missouri Valley Conference in three-point percentage, and third in assists.
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04-12-2012, 09:32 AM
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Trust has to be earned over time
Originally Posted by EmmetStFlyerFan
Not X's and O's but Jimmy's and Joe's my rear end. Archie will get our team to the promised land. Why do the same coaches end up with great players every year...............think its more development, coaching and X's and O's than anything. My money is on Archie, whoever's name is on the back of the jersey, doesn't matter. It's the coach, and nothing but the coach. How does MK go from bench warmer to class of the A10??? How does KD go from disappointment at an also ran school to possible All American at UD? Its the coach. Nothing but the coach. Give me a coach who can get the most out of his players and I'll give you a great program. Period.
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The more I reread your post, the more I agreed with it. Not necessarily the KD point, but close to it. At first I thought it was more like 75% of the winning equation to the coach. But then think about the results that the really top notch coaches get immediately upon taking over some programs. Those coaches win with the last coach's players, and they win more with their own recruits. And they win almost immediately upon taking over the program.
Arch is off to that kind of start. "I'll win with his players and I'll win with my players" mentality. So yes we should be patient. But patience with two pretty good coaches for ample years never got us a Sweet Sixteen, which is my personal success gage for UD at this point. At this point, I trust Arch but for UD fans it's easy to say "show me the money" after some real good years that fell short.
There's a saying in business, "In God we trust, all others bring data".
Right now I trust Arch, but I'll trust him a whole lot more with one more good point guard in the next two months !
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04-12-2012, 09:45 AM
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So if it's all about coaching, I'll just take one of the three open scholarships and suit up next year, and save us all some hand-wringing. I'm a 40 year old 5'11" white guy that never even played high school basketball but I'm sure Kid Yuma can coach me up.
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04-12-2012, 09:45 AM
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I don't agree with the Dillard point. He was highly productive at a program with what at the time was arguably a better profile than UD. And while I agree with the concept that development is a part of the equation much if that burden falls to the player. Finding the players with the potential to round out and complete their games and with the work ethic and desire to devote time to the boring task of doing so is key. And that is part of the Jimmie and Joe equation. Talent and ateticism without the desire to do the drudgery of putting up 5000 jump shots a week rather than play games isn't the right Jimmie or Joe. And no amount of x and o can round out London Warrens game and give him a jump shot.
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04-12-2012, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by sheg
So if it's all about coaching, I'll just take one of the three open scholarships and suit up next year, and save us all some hand-wringing. I'm a 40 year old 5'11" white guy that never even played high school basketball but I'm sure Kid Yuma can coach me up.
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See, it IS about the coach. One look at your profile and stroke and Archie would eat the scholarship!
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04-12-2012, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug
I don't agree with the Dillard point. He was highly productive at a program with what at the time was arguably a better profile than UD.
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I think SIU was on a downslide when KD got there. The year before they were 18-15 and an NIT team and the 2 years he played they went 13-18 (8-10) and 15-15 (6-12)
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04-12-2012, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug
I don't agree with the Dillard point. He was highly productive at a program with what at the time was arguably a better profile than UD. And while I agree with the concept that development is a part of the equation much if that burden falls to the player. Finding the players with the potential to round out and complete their games and with the work ethic and desire to devote time to the boring task of doing so is key. And that is part of the Jimmie and Joe equation. Talent and ateticism without the desire to do the drudgery of putting up 5000 jump shots a week rather than play games isn't the right Jimmie or Joe. And no amount of x and o can round out London Warrens game and give him a jump shot.
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I think that sums it up really well. A player could have nba potential if he works on his ball handling or shooting. But, if he isn't willing to put the work in forget it...
BG talked quite a few times about how hard players needed to work for success. I remember him talking about a lecture given to his players about an opponent who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn one year and the following year he was leading the A10 in three point percentage. BG said something to the players like "can you imagine how much time he spent in the gym to improve that much?" I think BG was frustrated with lack of individual improvement
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04-12-2012, 10:09 AM
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It's all of things that have been mentioned, both the coach and the players. A good coach can only take an untalented player so far, but a good coach can definitely make an untalented player better. And if you've got a player who wants to work to get better and pair him with a good coach, then I think that player can reach his full potential.
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04-12-2012, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by EmmetStFlyerFan
How does MK go from bench warmer to class of the A10??? How does KD go from disappointment at an also ran school to possible All American at UD? Its the coach. Nothing but the coach. Give me a coach who can get the most out of his players and I'll give you a great program. Period.
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I feel I need to correct some statements here. The success of KD and MK was NOT just the coach.
KD. BG recruited him to transfer from SIU. Players told me that during that transfer time KD was the BEST player on the floor. BG said the same thing. Probably made the decision to part ways with JS real easy. When Archie, saw him for the first time, he was VERY impressed. KD was already very, very good.
You do a disservice to MK when you claim that Archie took him from bench warmer to class of the A10. When asked about MK, BG ALWAYS stated that big men often take longer to develop. I watched MK his freshmen year in practice and it was not pretty. Matt has worked his tail off to become a much, much better player. he deserves mot of the credit for the improvement. When I heard from the coaches, publicly and privately, they l say the same thing. Matt lifted his game. When you state that Archie did it, you over state Archie and under state Matt. I will agree that Archie's offense utilizes Matt much more than BG. That helped the numbers... But the big man deserves some big time kudos!
Archie is a good coach, but in EVERY conversation this you, I heard Archie (and his staff) say "We need better talent!"
I think Archie is a talented, ambitious coach. I like his style. His tenure at UD will weight heavily on his ability to recruit.
You can't throw five Joes on the floor and expect them to beat better talent with consistency.
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04-12-2012, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan
You do a disservice to MK when you claim that Archie took him from bench warmer to class of the A10. When asked about MK, BG ALWAYS stated that big men often take longer to develop. I watched MK his freshmen year in practice and it was not pretty. Matt has worked his tail off to become a much, much better player. he deserves mot of the credit for the improvement. When I heard from the coaches, publicly and privately, they l say the same thing. Matt lifted his game. When you state that Archie did it, you over state Archie and under state Matt. I will agree that Archie's offense utilizes Matt much more than BG. That helped the numbers... But the big man deserves some big time kudos!
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I hear you, but how did he develop Searcy over his 4 years? Huelsman? Cripe? How about grades of D, C, and F. Kav is right now a C+ in my opinion and all of that came in the year BG left. Correlation or causation? If Kav has an even better year next year? It's hard to just attribute that to bad luck on BG's part, though I grant you that it's possible.
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04-12-2012, 02:37 PM
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I think there are 3 reasons why Kavs improved this year...in no particular order.
1) Archie's offensive strategy better suited Kavs
2) Archie had confidence in Kavs and didn't bench him every time he made a mistake
3) Kavs worked hard to become a better player
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04-12-2012, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by UD Sam
I think there are 3 reasons why Kavs improved this year...in no particular order.
1) Archie's offensive strategy better suited Kavs
2) Archie had confidence in Kavs and didn't bench him every time he made a mistake
3) Kavs worked hard to become a better player
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also add KD set him up for a lot of easy baskets where there was no one between him and the rim when he received the ball.
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04-12-2012, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Sea Bass
also add KD set him up for a lot of easy baskets where there was no one between him and the rim when he received the ball.
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That should maybe be the #1 reason for his success. Making those easy baskets certainlly increased his confidence.
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04-12-2012, 03:04 PM
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Early on it seemed like he did get the ball in a good position to seal off his defender quite a bit. Wouldn't say there was no one between him and the basket, but he had good positioning. I have to wonder if that success was again OOC teams who only face him and the Flyers once vs A10 teams who actually scout and game-plan.
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04-12-2012, 05:13 PM
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In my opinion the largest contributors to MKs season were Dillard, the offensive system and Matts work. Not sure I could put them in the proper order, but I think all were more important than anything Archie worked with him in terms of drills and developing skills.
Don't read any of that as a comparison as to how he would have fared without a change in coaches. Because without that change he still would have played in a system that did not suit his skills.
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04-12-2012, 06:03 PM
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Agree that the offensive system and Kavs hard work were responsible for his better play this year, but I also think Kavs would tell us that Archie's encouragement and faith in him (not benching him every time he made a mistake as the previous coach did) gave him the confidence to play his best. There were a few comments from Kavs during the season alluding to that.
I also remember a comment from Archie saying he encouraged CJ and DO to not worry about mistakes and just play. He knew they both had the talent to be better players. And they both improved toward the end of the season. Having confidence, not worrying about making a mistake, and having support from your coach can make a difference.
Last edited by UD Sam; 04-12-2012 at 06:05 PM..
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04-12-2012, 06:12 PM
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My points about Kav's improvement is not BG vs AM, but rather KAV vs. AM.
Kav worked his tail off and got smarter. Having a point guard like KD really helped as well as an offense that emphasized the center position helped. Give credit to Archie, but give a lot more to Kav.
Look at Freaze down south. His career had a lot more downs than ups. In the middle of his senior year, he kicks it in. He was a big reason for the late season run. Did X change coaches over the summer or even mid season? Happens all the time....
Coaching is important, but you can't coach height, speed and most of all heart.
A coach can work on skill development, team chemistry and game strategy.
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04-12-2012, 08:11 PM
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Agree with you STF. My post wasn't intended to be about BG vs AM. I said that Kavs' hard work and Archie's offensive system were the reasons for his improved play. But with a new coach and Kavs needing to build confidence (as he never played more than a few minutes a game) it was also helpful that AM encouraged and supported him.
I can't compare Kavs and AM to the Freaze and CM situation because I'm not crediting AM with Kavs improved play. I'm crediting him for giving Kavs the confidence he needed and letting him make a few mistakes along the way.
Sorry if I didn't explain my intent clearly.
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04-12-2012, 08:34 PM
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Start a new thread about current players and their development and just let this thread die. He's not coming so lets loose the name. Wish him well but something else was going on.
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04-18-2012, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Medford
Alex Carmona, as Chris mentioned above.
Nuts and bults, Alex was a star HS basketball player in Puerto Rico, where Calipari had successfully recruited several basketball players from during his UMASS days. Calipari "stashed" Carmona with a foster family in the Troy area shortly after Brooks Hall had graduated from Troy and was playing at UD (1998ish??) Carmona was a verbal commit to Memphis, played basketball at Troy for maybe a season or two, when during the summer before his senior year he decided he'd rather stay in the area, near his foster family and play for OP at Dayton. All of a sudden, "issues" arose with his 'status' and HS transcripts. I'm not even sure that he ever finished out his classes at Troy before going back to Puerto Rico. Last I saw he was playing professionally overseas somewhere, played sparingly for some Puetro Rico national team (not sure if it was their main team, or a "junior team")
That is the story as I remember it, Calipari came off seeming very fishy in the whole affair, though I doubt I know the whole story. I'd love to sit in a room with OP & Calipari and watch each of them hash out their verion of this story. Alex was a bit time recruit, top 100 player on many sites. Don't know how he would have turned out as a player, nor do I know what he's up to today, but he missed out on a free education. I'm not sure education was all that important to him, which was part of the problem, he came out of a pretty rough area, not sure it was ever nutured until he got to the states.
Calipari likely felt like Troy was a pretty safe place for him to go to HS. UD had just gone thru the O'Brien years, OSU was fresh off the Randy Ayers scandal, neither would have been programs he followed his entire life, HS basketball was strong in the area, but Troy was far enough removed to prevent a bunch of top level schools from bombarding each game. I don't know if he ever played AAU while here, but AAU you back then wasn't quite what it has become today.
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Good post...not to mention Troy's coach at the time, Barry Egan, was always a bit shifty. nice guy, but always had that "Huggy Bear" type vibe when I dealt with him. He was fired last year from Cleveland Heights after having some success. Most high school coaches with well over a .700 winning percentage don't get fired unless something else was going on. He did well at Troy, was let go because Troy "wanted to go a different direction", then went to Marion Harding where he had horrible seasons. I don't know the details, but the Carmona incident couldn't have helped after he ripped off a bunch of wins after he turned the program around.
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