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  #101  
Old 09-27-2017, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
I was thinking about this and remembered something pretty interesting.

In 2012, CBSSports did an anonymous poll of coaches asking which player had the dirtiest recruitment. In the others receiving votes category was one-time Dayton commit, Jevon Thomas. Now, I totally think Archie may have submitted that vote and I think it is very plausible that the reason Jevon never came to Dayton was because he or his handlers wanted some kind of payout and Dayton refused to play dirty. And guess where he ended up? Kansas State, at that time coached by Anthony Grant's good bud, Frank Martin, and assistant coach, Lamont Evans, one of those who is facing criminal charges.

Here is that article: https://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...f-past-decade/

Sidenote 1: It would be really interested to see which of the players named in this piece from 2012 besides Thomas were recruited by the coaches / programs implicated.

Sidenote 2: Jevon Thomas played AAU Ball for the New York Gauchos, the program which as referenced above was run at one-time (2005-2007) by Book Richardson, who was on Sean Miller's staff at Xavier and Arizona, and is now facing charges. Interestingly enough and as I mentioned above, the player Dayton got to replace Jevon was the great Scoochie Smith, who at one time also played with one of the Gauchos teams.

For those interested in revisiting, here is a thread that came out at the time of the CBS article linked above (2012) in reaction to Jevon Thomas being named in the poll of dirtiest recruited players. There are some interesting thoughts and theories there. http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21346

What does it all mean? Not a ton but I do think the fact that Jevon Thomas did not end up at Dayton suggests anecdotally that Archie's staff was doing things the right way. But I think it also shows that Dayton is not so far removed from the shady goings on of the shoe companys, agents and AAU ne'erdowells that is being exposed now.
Jevon Thomas (ultimately kicked out of Seton Hall), Devon Scott, and Jalen Robinson. Wow. Quite the recruiting class that was.

http://www.espn.com/blog/ncbrecruiti...r/post?id=1329
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  #102  
Old 09-27-2017, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Hilary. All four of those appeared to be slam dunk prosecutions (penalties) that have gone almost nowhere.
Jesus. You guys really need to get some new obsessions.
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  #103  
Old 09-27-2017, 10:44 AM
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http://www.wdrb.com/story/30953630/w...erence-at-2-pm
Pitino press conference at 2pm

Last edited by Lifelong Flyer Fan; 09-27-2017 at 10:48 AM..
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  #104  
Old 09-27-2017, 10:51 AM
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The problem is how do you distance yourself from this?

Look at Arizona. Richardson has been buying players for 10 years.

So if you are Arizona do you play with any player he recruited? Does the FBI have all of your misdeeds on tape or only some?

If Arizona wants to make a clean cut (good luck) but they need to fire Richardson and Miller (pay if you have to) and declare any player he recruited to be ineligible.

Anything else is playing with fire because you don't really know.

The universities cannot afford to wait for the court cases.
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  #105  
Old 09-27-2017, 11:12 AM
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Louisville AD already fired this morning and Pitino is meeting with the President of Louisville as I type this. Press Conference scheduled for 1:00pm. Already started that Juric (Former AD) and Pitino will not be there.
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  #106  
Old 09-27-2017, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
FWIW, while on campus last week XW drove past me in a 4-door Mercedes.
Rollo, better check your fleet. A car may be missing.
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  #107  
Old 09-27-2017, 11:15 AM
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Well first domino has fallen......many more to fall
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  #108  
Old 09-27-2017, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
I was thinking about this and remembered something pretty interesting.

In 2012, CBSSports did an anonymous poll of coaches asking which player had the dirtiest recruitment. In the others receiving votes category was one-time Dayton commit, Jevon Thomas. Now, I totally think Archie may have submitted that vote and I think it is very plausible that the reason Jevon never came to Dayton was because he or his handlers wanted some kind of payout and Dayton refused to play dirty. And guess where he ended up? Kansas State, at that time coached by Anthony Grant's good bud, Frank Martin, and assistant coach, Lamont Evans, one of those who is facing criminal charges.

Here is that article: https://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...f-past-decade/

Sidenote 1: It would be really interested to see which of the players named in this piece from 2012 besides Thomas were recruited by the coaches / programs implicated.

Sidenote 2: Jevon Thomas played AAU Ball for the New York Gauchos, the program which as referenced above was run at one-time (2005-2007) by Book Richardson, who was on Sean Miller's staff at Xavier and Arizona, and is now facing charges. Interestingly enough and as I mentioned above, the player Dayton got to replace Jevon was the great Scoochie Smith, who at one time also played with one of the Gauchos teams.

For those interested in revisiting, here is a thread that came out at the time of the CBS article linked above (2012) in reaction to Jevon Thomas being named in the poll of dirtiest recruited players. There are some interesting thoughts and theories there. http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21346

What does it all mean? Not a ton but I do think the fact that Jevon Thomas did not end up at Dayton suggests anecdotally that Archie's staff was doing things the right way. But I think it also shows that Dayton is not so far removed from the shady goings on of the shoe companys, agents and AAU ne'erdowells that is being exposed now.

I hope you are right on the overall point of Dayton being clean and I would be profoundly disappointed to find out UD was involved in this type of thing but I have learned in life that you can almost never deal in absolutes and unfortunately no one and nothing is completely beyond reproach.
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  #109  
Old 09-27-2017, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
Well first of all, wrong house and neighborhood you posted, but please do not fix it!

Seriously, why do we even need to put pictures, address, tax info etc on this message board of the parents of an athlete who had nothing to do with UD or this investigation. Give them their privacy, just saying!
First, home ownership and associated taxes are public records, so this is quite obviously NOT a privacy issue. You could just search Montgomery Country records under "Hawk" and find it in about 15 seconds. If I posted their income tax records that would be different, but your statement that this is somehow an explicit or implicit invasion of privacy is factually false.

Second, it's not the wrong neighborhood, so no I won't fix it. They've lived there for >20 years, and I could drive you to the house without Google Maps. It's right next to a park with soccer fields and a couple tennis courts.

Third, I didn't bring him up, rollo did, so re-read if you lost the plot on why it was brought up. I was actually responding to DEFEND the family not besmirch them. But really, don't slow down, you've got more ground to cover here.

Fourth, it's odd that (according to you) the wrong house is listed under the following name--did you notice there's a "Summary" link on the left that shows the owner name?

HAWK D KEITH JR AND JUDITH R
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  #110  
Old 09-27-2017, 11:26 AM
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Surprise! Upcoming recruiting is affected.

https://www.seccountry.com/auburn/au...mery-decommits
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  #111  
Old 09-27-2017, 11:38 AM
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Pitino was just fired by Louisville.

WOW!



http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...tom-jurich-out
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  #112  
Old 09-27-2017, 11:47 AM
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Some are reporting that AD Tom Jurich was asked to fire Ricky, but he refused so he Jurich was fired first. Even if Jurich did fire Ricky he would have been on borrowed time anyway.
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  #113  
Old 09-27-2017, 11:59 AM
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Auburn offering refund on tickets:

http://www.al.com/auburnbasketball/i...refunds_f.html
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  #114  
Old 09-27-2017, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
First, home ownership and associated taxes are public records, so this is quite obviously NOT a privacy issue. You could just search Montgomery Country records under "Hawk" and find it in about 15 seconds. If I posted their income tax records that would be different, but your statement that this is somehow an explicit or implicit invasion of privacy is factually false.

Second, it's not the wrong neighborhood, so no I won't fix it. They've lived there for >20 years, and I could drive you to the house without Google Maps. It's right next to a park with soccer fields and a couple tennis courts.

Third, I didn't bring him up, rollo did, so re-read if you lost the plot on why it was brought up. I was actually responding to DEFEND the family not besmirch them. But really, don't slow down, you've got more ground to cover here.

Fourth, it's odd that (according to you) the wrong house is listed under the following name--did you notice there's a "Summary" link on the left that shows the owner name?

HAWK D KEITH JR AND JUDITH R

Glad you were defending the family, good people. Just no need to post the info you posted on here IMO

Your second and fourth points above are still wrong, the home you posted is in Vandalia, a very modest brick ranch. But again, no need to correct this info as quite frankly still does not belong here.

Have a good day
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  #115  
Old 09-27-2017, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Ready Action View Post
Some are reporting that AD Tom Jurich was asked to fire Ricky, but he refused so he Jurich was fired first. Even if Jurich did fire Ricky he would have been on borrowed time anyway.
Louisville AD Jurich's daughter just took a job in March with Adidas.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ger/707521001/

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  #116  
Old 09-27-2017, 12:10 PM
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ESPN 100 recruit E.J. Montgomery decommits from Auburn

Go get 'em Grant! Tell 'em we do things right around these parts...Oops! Too soon?

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/r...mery-decommits
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  #117  
Old 09-27-2017, 12:10 PM
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the kid was going to Auburn. Likely to be ruled ineligible by the NCAA
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  #118  
Old 09-27-2017, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
Glad you were defending the family, good people. Just no need to post the info you posted on here IMO

Your second and fourth points above are still wrong, the home you posted is in Vandalia, a very modest brick ranch. But again, no need to correct this info as quite frankly still does not belong here.

Have a good day
I've clicked on the link multiple times, it takes me directly to 8062 Forest Lawn Court, Centerville.

And there is nothing in the least wrong with linking to public records. People are linking to Pitino's firing, I'M AGHAST. This is a private matter, Clayton, we should not be linking to such private matters as Pitino's employment.
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  #119  
Old 09-27-2017, 12:21 PM
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Nike was involved too for sure. They were bidding up Adidas and so is UA

Originally Posted by sheg View Post
Let's hope UD is not implicated in this. After all, Book Richardson works for Sean Miller. I wouldn't be surprised if UD is tarnished or worse (and I pray they aren't). I know, Nike school, but that's not very reassuring.
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  #120  
Old 09-27-2017, 12:58 PM
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FWIW, as a ref I get to meet interesting people and coaches from all over. One such AAU coach and I were hanging out last Spring during a break and he was sharing some great stories about kids, fights and bribes. When I asked him about these bribes and what he meant, he shared a story about being approached by Roy Williams (UNC) about one of his AAU players (a local kid I won't name) where Roy told him that all this kid had to do was walk out to the black SUV in the parking lot and take the envelop from the driver - no strings attached - and that there would be a lot more of those if he committed. This coach is probably the most respected AAU coach in Dayton and I have no reason to doubt him. This guy is all about getting kids out of the ghetto the right way. I look forward to seeing him again this winter/spring and will have to revisit this story now that the sh*t is hitting the fan. It'll be interesting to see if Roy Williams' name gets brought up...
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  #121  
Old 09-27-2017, 01:14 PM
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As much as I'm enjoying watching the cockroaches scurry (bye Ricky), there could be a backlash none of us are thinking about.

I believe this is going to reinvigorate the discussion of paying college athletes their market value. In essence, dropping the charade of amateurism in college athletics. The argument will be athletes are obviously shopping their talents to the highest bidder; why should this be done in the shadows? Conversely, if we're going to acknowledge these are at least semi-pro athletes, why should they be prohibited from playing in the NBA right away? If this idea gains traction, you'll see bidding wars for top talent & even lesser talent. UD doesn't have the pockets for that.
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  #122  
Old 09-27-2017, 01:34 PM
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No way Bruce Pearl survives this.
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  #123  
Old 09-27-2017, 01:36 PM
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Eric F. Spina‏ @DaytonPrezSpina 2h2 hours ago

Proud of our exceptional Men's Basketball coaching staff. Integrity, honor, excellence. Coach… https://www.instagram.com/p/BZjISYRgqBz/
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  #124  
Old 09-27-2017, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by lhsgolf19 View Post
Eric F. Spina‏ @DaytonPrezSpina 2h2 hours ago

Proud of our exceptional Men's Basketball coaching staff. Integrity, honor, excellence. Coach… https://www.instagram.com/p/BZjISYRgqBz/
Epic troll job by Spina.
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  #125  
Old 09-27-2017, 01:49 PM
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Well if there ever was an issue that brought me out of the off-season vacation this would be it.

I think the FBI investigation not letting the NCAA in on the probe is that an undercurrent of belief (maybe evidence?) that this goes up the 'chain' to some folks in hi places.

Are not some of the people involved in committee's AD's and previous coaches?

ESPN seems to be focused on how it will impact BB. But football where even MORE MILLIONS are played with year in and year out .... is where the heavy stuff is really going on ....

As they sang many years ago, "the answer my friend is blowing in the wind". And the wind will be blowin' cold down some peoples collar.

One final point to make is that we probably all have seen that when $$$$ and establishments with power are confronted with illegal or immoral stuff ... a few are sacrificed so the many can survive and continue doing what they always have been doing. AND I AN'T TALKIN' 'BOUT WASHINGTON!

So if you are hoping that UNC and others of that type will get snagged in this scandal .... I don't think so. You think UK is pure with their coach ... yea that Jersey bridge down the road from me ... I got it for sale just listed it this morning. Just PM me if you are interested in the bridge!
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Old 09-27-2017, 01:50 PM
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And the FBI has now subpoenaed Nike EYBL employees and their documents. It's going to get ugly folks!

https://twitter.com/DarrenHeitner/st...95940134903815
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Old 09-27-2017, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by lhsgolf19 View Post
Eric F. Spina‏ @DaytonPrezSpina 2h2 hours ago

Proud of our exceptional Men's Basketball coaching staff. Integrity, honor, excellence. Coach… https://www.instagram.com/p/BZjISYRgqBz/
I think that is pretty bold on Prez Spina's part
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  #128  
Old 09-27-2017, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post
As much as I'm enjoying watching the cockroaches scurry (bye Ricky), there could be a backlash none of us are thinking about.

I believe this is going to reinvigorate the discussion of paying college athletes their market value. In essence, dropping the charade of amateurism in college athletics. The argument will be athletes are obviously shopping their talents to the highest bidder; why should this be done in the shadows? Conversely, if we're going to acknowledge these are at least semi-pro athletes, why should they be prohibited from playing in the NBA right away? If this idea gains traction, you'll see bidding wars for top talent & even lesser talent. UD doesn't have the pockets for that.
The only answer here I think is:

1. The NCAA blows up. In it's current form, it dies. The farce is over. It was good while it lasted.
2. The NBA D league develops into an honest minor league. The baseball model is there. Something not the same, but kinda similar.
3. College sports becomes roughly the level of the current 200 level RPI teams on down as everyone else will be under contract and ineligible.
4. I have no idea how this sorts out for college football, since it's too much $ to die and yet if the dominoes really fall I don't see how it survives.

I don't see how it makes any sense for a school like UD or Alabama football to "sponsor" a team of professionals who don't attend classes. And I don't see players who are collecting hundreds of thousands of $ ever attending a class. So that is just a different farce and pointless.
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  #129  
Old 09-27-2017, 02:03 PM
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Or they can change the way it's done - shoe sales that is

Can anyone see ad's with picture of Mom's holding a sign that reads:

"Send my kid to school .... Buy XYZ Shoes here!"

Would any one be mad at Mom being the middle man ... err women?
The shoes go straight from the company to Mom.
The money (after the family % take) goes back to the company.

No school involved!
No coaches.

Pure capitalism at the lowest entrepreneurial level!

Don't you just love this country?
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Old 09-27-2017, 02:25 PM
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"That was fast - University of Louisville removes an Adidas logo from its Facebook page"

http://www.courier-journal.com/story...ogo/708677001/
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  #131  
Old 09-27-2017, 02:27 PM
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Go get 'em Coach Grant:

"Anfernee Simons, a five-star recruit, announced Wednesday that he has backed out of his verbal commitment to Louisville firing the dismissal of Rick Pitino"

http://louisville.247sports.com/Bolt...ment-108075867
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Old 09-27-2017, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 View Post

I think the FBI investigation not letting the NCAA in on the probe is that an undercurrent of belief (maybe evidence?) that this goes up the 'chain' to some folks in hi places.
I think you are right on.

NCAA= "We would be pleased to share all the information we are collecting and collaborate in any way."

FBI = "We will definitely be in touch with you. No need to sit by the phone."
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Old 09-27-2017, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Ready Action View Post
Go get 'em Coach Grant:

"Anfernee Simons, a five-star recruit, announced Wednesday that he has backed out of his verbal commitment to Louisville firing the dismissal of Rick Pitino"

http://louisville.247sports.com/Bolt...ment-108075867
No telling how many of these high profile kids have taken money. There is a major risk involved in taking any of them that are bound to any of the teams in the FBI report.
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Old 09-27-2017, 02:50 PM
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Catching up on a few comments....

While I assume there is money passed thru hands in football, I think football is a bit of a different animal than basketball. In this era of 1 & done, the lottery type talent is typically identifiable by the time they are a sophomore in high school, certainly by the time their heading into the senior years of high school and are able to sign an LOI. Obviously not all 5 stars pan out, but cast a wide net, and you're likely to see a decent return on your "investment" in 7-12 months. Meanwhile in football, the top level draft picks typically are not identifiable until their sophomore year of college. Sure there are 5 stars that develop into top of the draft talents, but the start ratings of 1st round draft picks is more diverse in the NFL than the NBA lottery. On top of that, there is far less incentive for the shoe companies to "invest" in HS or even college level football players than the top HS basketball talent. Football players don't sell shoes, at least not at the level that LeBron, Durant or Steph do, not anywhere close.

If this does ultimately turn college athletics into a semi-pro kind of environment, I'm not sure that UD, as its currently situated is effected all that much in relation to other schools, and may even be helped. Sure, UD isn't going to spend at the levels of UNC, Duke, Louisville, etc... in basketball, but they don't today. However, if basketball goes down that road, then its obvious that football would go down the same path. This is where UD may (I repeat MAY) benefit. While the shoe companies make much more money off basketball, colleges make much more money off of football. Would a "semi-pro" path for the NCAA lead schools like Auburn, Clemson, Vandy, Purdue, etc... to invest even more resources to football than they do today, and even less to basketball? Football isn't cheap to run, and if things allow the top revenue generators like Ohio State to spend even more money on football, some schools down the rung in P5 conferences are going to have to make some hard choices.

At any rate, looking back in 10 years could be hugely fascinating. This does have the potential to have vast consequences across the face of the NCAA. Impossible to predict at the moment, lots of different ways this could end up turning before all is settled. Guaranteed there are a lot of people in collegiate sports that didn't sleep real well last night.
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Old 09-27-2017, 02:53 PM
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Can someone explain to me why all this stuff is illegal and not merely smarmy? On one hand, if some big-time programs get a black eye or even the death penalty there's more room at the top for Dayton. Hooray.

On the other hand, why would it be illegal to give a high school student money in order to try to influence them to going to your school? I understand it being an NCAA violation and worthy of a lifetime ban, but what law is being broken there?
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Old 09-27-2017, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
FWIW, as a ref I get to meet interesting people and coaches from all over. One such AAU coach and I were hanging out last Spring during a break and he was sharing some great stories about kids, fights and bribes. When I asked him about these bribes and what he meant, he shared a story about being approached by Roy Williams (UNC) about one of his AAU players (a local kid I won't name) where Roy told him that all this kid had to do was walk out to the black SUV in the parking lot and take the envelop from the driver - no strings attached - and that there would be a lot more of those if he committed. This coach is probably the most respected AAU coach in Dayton and I have no reason to doubt him. This guy is all about getting kids out of the ghetto the right way. I look forward to seeing him again this winter/spring and will have to revisit this story now that the sh*t is hitting the fan. It'll be interesting to see if Roy Williams' name gets brought up...
Not the same Roy Williams/UNC where NOT attending African and Afro-American Studies classes will keep you eligible!?!?!
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:11 PM
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Somewhere, Bobby Knight is holding a nice scotch in his left hand and holding up the middle finger on his right.
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:14 PM
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I told my wife I know 1 honest coach. RMK.

Others, I don't know about.
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyingArrow View Post
Can someone explain to me why all this stuff is illegal and not merely smarmy? On one hand, if some big-time programs get a black eye or even the death penalty there's more room at the top for Dayton. Hooray.

On the other hand, why would it be illegal to give a high school student money in order to try to influence them to going to your school? I understand it being an NCAA violation and worthy of a lifetime ban, but what law is being broken there?
Tax fraud
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  #140  
Old 09-27-2017, 03:15 PM
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And this is basketball, which is the secondary sport. Can you imagine what is going on in football. No wonder Notre Dame cannot compete at a top level.
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDuke2003 View Post
Tax fraud
Smarmy and illegal......
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyingArrow View Post
Can someone explain to me why all this stuff is illegal and not merely smarmy? On one hand, if some big-time programs get a black eye or even the death penalty there's more room at the top for Dayton. Hooray.

On the other hand, why would it be illegal to give a high school student money in order to try to influence them to going to your school? I understand it being an NCAA violation and worthy of a lifetime ban, but what law is being broken there?
From this SI article:

https://www.si.com/college-basketbal...uisville-bribe

Originally Posted by article
THE CHARGES
The three cases follow a multi-year investigation by FBI special agent John Vourderis and other federal officials into the criminal influence of money on college coaches and players who participate in NCAA basketball. The investigation revealed “numerous instances" of bribes made by financial advisors and persons connected to apparel companies to assistant coaches, college players, high school players and various family members. The bribes had simple purposes: convince, either directly or indirectly, future college basketball stars to sign with a particular college or convince future NBA players to hire a bribing financial advisor at the start of those players' NBA careers.


The federal government's stake in this topic is multi-faceted. For one, the alleged bribes took place across state lines, meaning the persons travelled to different states or communicated across state lines. Such “interstate" activity triggered the possibility of federal charges for conspiracy, bribery, fraud and other crimes.

In addition, the federal government financially supports both public and private universities, including through financial student aid, grants and tax breaks. From that lens, coaches handle federal resources and those coaches' salaries are partly subsidized through the federal government. Further, these coaches, as one of the complaints details, “have the ability to provide sports agents, financial advisors, business managers and others with access to the student-athletes they coach" and wield “enormous influence over the student-athletes who play for them, in particular with respect to guiding those student-athletes through the process of selecting agents and other advisors when they prepare to leave college and enter the NBA." In at least an indirect sense, then, federal taxpayers are funding corruption in college sports.

With that background in mind, the Justice Department charges that the coaches and financial advisors conspired to commit bribery through educational programs that receive federal funds. Here, the relevant programs are college basketball programs or, more generally, college athletic departments.


Under federal law, a person associated with such a program faces up to 10 years in prison if convicted of agreeing to accept anything of value from any person, “intending to be influenced or rewarded in connection with any business, transaction, or series of transactions of such organization, government, or agency involving any thing of value of $5,000 or more." Since the Justice Department contends the coaches partook in this kind of theft through a conspiracy, they each face an additional maximum of five years in prison.

The Justice Department incorporates other charges that relate to this underlying theory of criminal conduct. They include “honest services wire fraud" which refers to using wire communication (such as phone communications) in interstate commerce to engage in fraudulent acts. Part of the fraud, according to one of the complaints, involved depriving the coaches' employing universities “of their intangible right to their employees' honest services." This charge carries up to a 20-year prison sentence, plus an additional five years in prison for partaking in a conspiracy.

Travel Act conspiracy also serves as a basis for charges. Under federal law it is a crime to travel in interstate commerce, or use the mail or any facility in interstate, with the intent to distribute the proceeds of any unlawful activity or “promote, manage, establish, carry on, or facilitate the promotion, management, establishment, or carrying on, of any unlawful activity." Here the defendants are accused of using the U.S. postal system to further their system of bribes. Violation of this law carries up to a five-year prison sentence.


For their part, Gatto, Code and Augustine are accused of conspiring with Dawkins and Sood to commit wire fraud in a scheme to defraud high school athletes and their families. Through this supposed scheme, the defendants allegedly “concealed bribe payments to high school student-athletes and/or their families" in exchange for matriculating to particular universities. By accepting those bribes, the Justice Department observes, the players became ineligible to compete in the NCAA. These five defendants are also accused of money laundering, meaning using unlawful means to give ill-gotten gains the appearance of being legitimate money. Money laundering carries a maximum prison sentence of 20 years in prison.

Meanwhile, Person and Michel are accused of conspiring to “steer" college athletes to use Michel's clothing service. Person, as an employee of a school receiving federal funds, is accused of accepting bribes as part of a plot to direct players to Michel. Such conduct, prosecutors charge, deprived Auburn of its “intangible" right to Person's services.

If convicted on all counts, the defendants, excluding Dawkins and Sood, could face maximum sentences ranging from 50 to 80 years in prison. Unfortunately for Dawkins and Sood, they face charges in two cases. If convicted across the board and sentenced to the max, each would receive more than 100 years in prison.


Seldom, however, is the maximum sentence imposed when the defendants—as in these cases—lack a substantial criminal record. In addition, a judge can dramatically alter the length of a prison sentence based on whether the judge runs the sentences “consecutively" (one after the other) or “concurrently" (at the same time). It is also possible that the defendants will work out plea deals with the Justice Department where they plead guilty or no contest to lesser charges. Nonetheless, the defendants in these case are threatened with multi-year prison sentences should they be convicted.
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:37 PM
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That quote from the article did not answer the question for me from a legal sense.

In addition, the federal government financially supports both public and private universities, including through financial student aid, grants and tax breaks. From that lens, coaches handle federal resources and those coaches' salaries are partly subsidized through the federal government.

I'm with you so far. . .

Further, these coaches, as one of the complaints details, “have the ability to provide sports agents, financial advisors, business managers and others with access to the student-athletes they coach" and wield “enormous influence over the student-athletes who play for them, in particular with respect to guiding those student-athletes through the process of selecting agents and other advisors when they prepare to leave college and enter the NBA."

Again, I'm with you so far. . .

In at least an indirect sense, then, federal taxpayers are funding corruption in college sports.

Wait, what? When did we establish corruption? How did we get from being in a position of influence over young men (so is a youth group leader and an army commander) to "indirect corruption"? Are the coaches corrupting the young men?? Slimy, yes, but corruption to accept $ from people who want to pay you to be an influencer? They're not elected officials who are sworn not to do this.
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
They're not elected officials who are sworn not to do this.
True. But they are State employees who cannot use their position to accept outside money for power or influence or perception of same.

Should the assistant or head coach be allowed to take money from Honda for each car a current player buys from them? Or get kickbacks from Milanos for taking recruits out to eat?

I'm not an elected official but as a gov't employee I can't take a coke from your local landfill for fear the next decision I make that benefits them may have been influenced.
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
True. But they are State employees who cannot use their position to accept outside money for power or influence or perception of same.

Should the assistant or head coach be allowed to take money from Honda for each car a current player buys from them? Or get kickbacks from Milanos for taking recruits out to eat?

I'm not an elected official but as a gov't employee I can't take a coke from your local landfill for fear the next decision I make that benefits them may have been influenced.
Is the coach responsible for the university's fleet decisions? If not, I see no reason why the coach could not get a commission for influencing people to buy Hondas. He's not using his influence to unfairly use the university's money.

If he take the recruit out to eat using his own money, no problem. If he spends the university's money to take the recruit out and gets a kickback, big difference.

EDIT: I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just educating myself here. Seems like if he's not using the university's $ to enrich himself, he hasn't violated anything. So if he's funneling the university's money through Nike to a recruit, that's a big problem of misallocated government funds. If he's funneling donor's money through Nike it's an NCAA problem. Isn't it?

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Old 09-27-2017, 04:23 PM
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Is the coach responsible for the university's fleet decisions? If not, I see no reason why the coach could not get a commission for influencing people to buy Hondas. He's not using his influence to unfairly use the university's money.

If he take the recruit out to eat using his own money, no problem. If he spends the university's money to take the recruit out and gets a kickback, big difference.

EDIT: I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just educating myself here. Seems like if he's not using the university's $ to enrich himself, he hasn't violated anything. So if he's funneling the university's money through Nike to a recruit, that's a big problem of misallocated government funds. If he's funneling donor's money through Nike it's an NCAA problem. Isn't it?
When you start "funneling money" then you can easily start treading into money laundering too.
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by lhsgolf19 View Post
Eric F. Spina‏ @DaytonPrezSpina 2h2 hours ago

Proud of our exceptional Men's Basketball coaching staff. Integrity, honor, excellence. Coach… https://www.instagram.com/p/BZjISYRgqBz/

There are times in life, when it is better off to keep you mouth shut. This is one of them if your in an administrative position at any school.

Spina has no idea what may or may not have happened with previous, or current, coaches, assistant coaches, department employees, boosters, UD's Nike rep, etc...........as others have said, this thing is far from over I fear.
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Hilary. All four of those appeared to be slam dunk prosecutions (penalties) that have gone almost nowhere.
Keep this **** out of the basketball area.
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
True. But they are State employees who cannot use their position to accept outside money for power or influence or perception of same.

Should the assistant or head coach be allowed to take money from Honda for each car a current player buys from them? Or get kickbacks from Milanos for taking recruits out to eat?

I'm not an elected official but as a gov't employee I can't take a coke from your local landfill for fear the next decision I make that benefits them may have been influenced.
So what I'm reading is that it hinges on the fact that these are state employees committing these acts. How then would this apply to coaches at private colleges who may have done the same thing?
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Old 09-27-2017, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by SHQCKEY View Post
So what I'm reading is that it hinges on the fact that these are state employees committing these acts. How then would this apply to coaches at private colleges who may have done the same thing?
These private schools receive federal funding
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Old 09-27-2017, 05:27 PM
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Just heard this quote on talk radio in Pittsburgh which was attributed to the late, great Beano Cook..."The Fed is always favored and they never play an away game". Love it!!
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Old 09-27-2017, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by NEOFlyer View Post
I think that is pretty bold on Prez Spina's part
I thought the same thing. Hope he has done his diligence.
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  #154  
Old 09-27-2017, 08:42 PM
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Kobie Baker who was the Associate Athletics Director/DOB at Alabama in charge of Men's Basketball has resigned. My first reaction was to see when he was hired and it was after Coach Grant had left Bama. So whatever he did was all on Avery Johnson's watch. Disaster averted. The crazy thing is that he worked in NCAA compliance before coming to Bama in August 2015.

http://www.al.com/alabamabasketball/...affer_res.html

http://www.timesdaily.com/news/top_n...3caa53af7.html

https://deadspin.com/alabama-basketb...caa-1818865794

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Old 09-27-2017, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Somewhere, Bobby Knight is holding a nice scotch in his left hand and holding up the middle finger on his right.
He doesn't do scotch, so both hands free for a double-digit salute.
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Old 09-27-2017, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Sea Bass View Post
I told my wife I know 1 honest coach. RMK.

Others, I don't know about.
I know 2: RMK and Don Donoher
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Old 09-27-2017, 08:53 PM
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I received a text from my sister yesterday at the time of twitter headlines with not much substantial out there...

My brother in law is highly involved with the AAU circuit and is in charge of running tournaments in two states for his organization. He has ties to one of the coaches involved in all of this and one of his best players (my BIL is a HS head coach) plays for one of the crooks in AAU. He isn't happy to say the least. This player, has coaches coming from everywhere to watch him. From games, to practices, to open gyms...coaches are flying in from all over to see this kid.

The coach involved is an AAU coach in Florida. My sister always knew something was up, as this AAU coach would sit courtside at Orlando Magic games...not quite AAU coach money. He is an Adidas guy and his training facility is an Adidas based and sponsored facility.

My point...this schmitt is going to hit...and hit hard. When you have AAU facility coaches implicated in this to guys like Pitino...watch out. From the Calapari likes, who gets a steady flow of cash sent to family members due to his funneling of players to certain NBA agents to the small guys...the corruption runs deep.

You have 4 people criminally charged...federally. This isn't Montgomery County CPC. Federal charges are brought forth in cases where they are virtual slam dunks. Federal indictments aren't easy to get. Very few federal cases result in a not-guilty verdict because the requirements for a federal indictment are VERY tough.

With this being the case, and guaranteed jail time on many federal cases will result in these currently charged coaches singing like a bird. You will see many more charged out of this and it will encompass the big guys, the smaller guys, and many people between.
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Old 09-27-2017, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
My brother in law is highly involved with the AAU circuit and is in charge of running tournaments in two states for his organization. He has ties to one of the coaches involved in all of this and one of his best players plays for one of the crooks. He isn't happy to say the least. This player, has coaches coming from everywhere to watch him. From games, to practices, to open gyms...coaches are flying in from all over to see this kid.

The coach involved is an AAU coach in Florida. My sister always knew something was up, as this AAU coach would sit courtside at Orlando Magic games...not quite AAU coach money. He is an Adidas guy and his training facility is an Adidas based and sponsored facility.
I'm 99% sure you're referring to JB Augustine.

I guess you didn't want to use his name but at this point you aren't giving anything away. It's all going to come out eventually.
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Old 09-27-2017, 09:20 PM
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I wish I would have listened better to Jay Bilas on Mike & Mike this morning. Say what you will
About him, he is a basketball guy and a lawyer. He was explaining the federal charges, and from what I
remember, he said any school that accepts any form of money from the Federal government that exceeds
"x" amount ( I believe it was a paltry $40K ) is open to this investigation. He then proceeded to say that
student athletes are considered an "asset" on the university ledger ( for their potential profitability ). Thus, with all
the shenanigans with the bribes etc, these government funded entities cannot properly determine their expenditures
or income from these "assets". The assets are being illegally manipulated from outside or inside sources.
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Old 09-27-2017, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
The only answer here I think is:

1. The NCAA blows up. In it's current form, it dies. The farce is over. It was good while it lasted.
2. The NBA D league develops into an honest minor league. The baseball model is there. Something not the same, but kinda similar.
3. College sports becomes roughly the level of the current 200 level RPI teams on down as everyone else will be under contract and ineligible.
4. I have no idea how this sorts out for college football, since it's too much $ to die and yet if the dominoes really fall I don't see how it survives.

I don't see how it makes any sense for a school like UD or Alabama football to "sponsor" a team of professionals who don't attend classes. And I don't see players who are collecting hundreds of thousands of $ ever attending a class. So that is just a different farce and pointless.
I'm not so pessimistic about the future. I do think the NBA shares part of the blame. They know all this is going on too. The "League" needs to invest in a real minor league system that includes atleast two levels below the NBA.

College baseball and MLB have a good model that can be replicated if the NBA chose to set it up. You can get drafted out of HS but if you decide to go to college, you are there three years.

Long term, I'd like to think this will be good for all involved. Kids that don't want to go to college can get drafted and start in the minor leagues. No more charades about being a student athlete. After a few years where HS "phenoms" see the "phenoms" from 3 yrs ago making $50K or already washed out, I think fewer will take that route--water will reach its natural level. Less glad handing AAU coaches. A school like UD COULD actually do well in this new environment since UD (relatively speaking) attracts true student athletes.
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Old 09-27-2017, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by C-time View Post
I'm 99% sure you're referring to JB Augustine.

I guess you didn't want to use his name but at this point you aren't giving anything away. It's all going to come out eventually.
Was going to let you all do the homework lol. Tallahassee paper already has his name out there.
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Old 09-27-2017, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by UncleFester View Post
I wish I would have listened better to Jay Bilas on Mike & Mike this morning. Say what you will
About him, he is a basketball guy and a lawyer. He was explaining the federal charges, and from what I
remember, he said any school that accepts any form of money from the Federal government that exceeds
"x" amount ( I believe it was a paltry $40K ) is open to this investigation. He then proceeded to say that
student athletes are considered an "asset" on the university ledger ( for their potential profitability ). Thus, with all
the shenanigans with the bribes etc, these government funded entities cannot properly determine their expenditures
or income from these "assets". The assets are being illegally manipulated from outside or inside sources.
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I believe I heard recently that Hillsdale College was the only (or one of a very few) college that did not accept any form of federal funds. I'm assuming that every Div I school accepts some form of federal funds and is "at risk".

As for Spina, I thought that statement was gutsy. You don't know what you don't know!

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Old 09-27-2017, 10:26 PM
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Predicting the field of 64 may be tough this year. St. Peter's vs Ft Wayne anyone?
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Old 09-27-2017, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by C-time View Post
The crazy thing is that he worked in NCAA compliance before coming to Bama in August 2015.
Fox guarding the hen house?
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Old 09-27-2017, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
Predicting the field of 64 may be tough this year. St. Peter's vs Ft Wayne anyone?
There won't be any problems this year unless schools remove themselves from the tournament. The NCAA just doesn't move that quick.

The scary thing is that by the 2018-19 season there may be so many schools implicated that the NCAA just decides to let everybody off the hook and ignore everything.
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Old 09-27-2017, 10:44 PM
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Here's some more info on the Alabama staffer who resigned. Looks like he was involved with Chuck Person and was supposed to get 5k to help steer Collin Sexton to a financial agency. Sexton is currently enrolled as a freshman at Alabama.

https://www.tidesports.com/kobie-bak...investigation/

https://sports.yahoo.com/alabama-cau...001659682.html

Last edited by C-time; 09-27-2017 at 11:30 PM.. Reason: And another link
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Old 09-27-2017, 10:48 PM
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Any school that accepts federal dollars for student loans is fair game. In other words, every school except Hillsdale.
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Old 09-27-2017, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
Any school that accepts federal dollars for student loans is fair game. In other words, every school except Hillsdale.
So you're saying UD should stop accepting federal money so we can pay players and win the NCAA tournament!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 09-27-2017, 11:22 PM
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It'd still be an NCAA violation even if it weren't illegal.

As far as inside influences affecting the value of a University's "asset", that sounds like it might make sense. A coach should be working for the school that's paying him without having a conflict of interest. Although I'm not sure how it makes a player less of an asset to suggest financial advisor X instead of financial advisor Y.

As far as outside influences affecting the value of a University's "asset", that makes it sound like the University owns the players.
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Old 09-28-2017, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
I believe I heard recently that Hillsdale College was the only (or one of a very few) college that did not accept any form of federal funds. I'm assuming that every Div I school accepts some form of federal funds and is "at risk".
and Grove City College.
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  #171  
Old 09-28-2017, 07:55 AM
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For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Will the equal/opposite reaction to this be the breaking away of the P5 Conferences from the NCAA? You can't fire someone who quits...right? I wouldn't doubt it. Money talks. Which is why your King has so much to say...
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Old 09-28-2017, 08:32 AM
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I am surprised by Spina's comments as well. Hard to completely ignore the fact that one of the biggest names who looks to get caught in this is Sean Miller-- to whom Archie was an assistant (and obviously brother) and where he coached side-by-side with Book Richardson.
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  #173  
Old 09-28-2017, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Will the equal/opposite reaction to this be the breaking away of the P5 Conferences from the NCAA? You can't fire someone who quits...right? I wouldn't doubt it. Money talks. Which is why your King has so much to say...
This is beyond NCAA, though. While the FBI may not have anything criminal on Pitino, yet, this whole thing began with the FBI. If the P5 break away and try this same crap, they still break the law, and the FBI can get them anyway.
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Old 09-28-2017, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
This is beyond NCAA, though. While the FBI may not have anything criminal on Pitino, yet, this whole thing began with the FBI. If the P5 break away and try this same crap, they still break the law, and the FBI can get them anyway.
Also, I think if the P5 try and break away, there will be a whole lot of *****ing and moaning from the non P5 that congress will step in and threat to affect gov money to the P5. Kind of like what they do to the NFL with the threat to take away the anti trust exemption.
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Old 09-28-2017, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
What the eff do the Clintons have to do with this?
Nothing really, just a lot of us despise the Clintons and deep down know somehow they probably have their hand in this. Wouldn't surprise me...
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Old 09-28-2017, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by C-time View Post
There won't be any problems this year unless schools remove themselves from the tournament. The NCAA just doesn't move that quick.

The scary thing is that by the 2018-19 season there may be so many schools implicated that the NCAA just decides to let everybody off the hook and ignore everything.
Heard on the radio this morning that upwards of 100 schools may be implicated in this situation once all the facts come out.

There are how many D1 schools 365? That's almost 1/3 of the group. I think if this is the number the NCAA will have a bigger stain on their organization than the one they seem to have currently.

Imagine the problem if some of the current and previous people in the NCAA controlling organization are eventually linked to this or knew of this.

All I can say is DOUBLE WOW!
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Old 09-28-2017, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 View Post
Heard on the radio this morning that upwards of 100 schools may be implicated in this situation once all the facts come out.

There are how many D1 schools 365? That's almost 1/3 of the group. I think if this is the number the NCAA will have a bigger stain on their organization than the one they seem to have currently.

Imagine the problem if some of the current and previous people in the NCAA controlling organization are eventually linked to this or knew of this.

All I can say is DOUBLE WOW!
Yep I heard the same thing and adding on Pat Forte on the Dan Patrick stated that any school which has recruited 3-star recruits and up may be looked at.
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Old 09-28-2017, 09:55 AM
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Does UD have a shoe contract?

Also, any word on how Arizona is responding re Miller to the charges against Richardson?
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Old 09-28-2017, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Will the equal/opposite reaction to this be the breaking away of the P5 Conferences from the NCAA? You can't fire someone who quits...right? I wouldn't doubt it. Money talks. Which is why your King has so much to say...
I feel like the NCAA has looked the other way. How could their countless investigations not uncover some of this stuff. They have protected the P5 by taking it easy on the major powers, issuing penalties with minimal impact i.e. vacating wins from years past and giving the public a perception that they are acting vigilantly as a watchdog so as to keep shenanigans like this from happening. But the reality is they are an enabler and ally of the big 5. Now, the FBI has forced their hand to clean it up. It's similar to baseball and the steroid era. So I think the P5 will have to accept sanctions, even if NCAA comes down really hard... which given their history is not exactly a given. Now, if they come after football next, all bets are off. The P5 will do anything to protect it. Maybe even breaking away, but untill that happens I don't think it is worth them abandoning the NCAA, especially given the huge hit they would take in perception / public opinion. But I am not sure they can get football as easily so they may be all right. The difference is that I think football bribes are largely routed through boosters vs the shoe companies and agents. When you have corporations like Adidas and Nike involved, there's going to be a huge trail of evidence and just too many in the know who can come forward.
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  #180  
Old 09-28-2017, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
This is beyond NCAA, though. While the FBI may not have anything criminal on Pitino, yet, this whole thing began with the FBI. If the P5 break away and try this same crap, they still break the law, and the FBI can get them anyway.
I think his point, which I agree with, is if the NCAA comes down too hard, then the 5 form their own league to get out of sanctions. The 5 cannot let this pay stuff go on in their own league, because it disturbs the playing field and disturbs fans. Much easier to police it if you start over and do it right from the get go.

The other side of the coin is that it is not easy to form a new association, and it takes huge bucks, and 60 schools agreeing on the time of day takes a long time.

The NCAA has become so bureaucratic they take forever to make decisions. The UNC case is not even close to being resolved in two years, and it is a slam dunk. Try investigating and punishing a few dozen schools or more.
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Old 09-28-2017, 10:05 AM
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I'm now beginning to wonder just what Archie really meant when he said it was too hard to recruit at Dayton.....translation, Dayton wouldn't offer more than just a ship? Hard to compete when you don't have matching funds.
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Old 09-28-2017, 10:14 AM
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There are discussions whether actions by many are criminal, not criminal, illegal, swarmy etc. But it does appear that mountains of cash have been transferred from Adidas to coaches on all levels, players and others. "Follow the money."

Wait until IRS jumps in because I am sure that these monies did not appear on mny tax returns as income. You can hide cash but when IRS does "asset" investigations and you cannot show how you were able to afford that big house, that big car, those vacations etc., you are in big trouble.

Anyone who has had any dealings with IRS knows that IRS is ruthless and will pursue everyone to the ends of the earth for its money with liens on everything that you and others where you tried to hide the money own. Then come criminal penalties. Dealing with the IRS is that you are guilty until you prove otherwise.
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Old 09-28-2017, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyer68 View Post
There are discussions whether actions by many are criminal, not criminal, illegal, swarmy etc. But it does appear that mountains of cash have been transferred from Adidas to coaches on all levels, players and others. "Follow the money."

Wait until IRS jumps in because I am sure that these monies did not appear on mny tax returns as income. You can hide cash but when IRS does "asset" investigations and you cannot show how you were able to afford that big house, that big car, those vacations etc., you are in big trouble.

Anyone who has had any dealings with IRS knows that IRS is ruthless and will pursue everyone to the ends of the earth for its money with liens on everything that you and others where you tried to hide the money own. Then come criminal penalties. Dealing with the IRS is that you are guilty until you prove otherwise.
I agree and that is what I was saying in another post. The FBI is already encouraging the accused to cooperate and those who may have done wrong to come forward. If you don't cooperate the FBI will threaten to turn the evidence they have on you over to the IRS so they can investigate the findings. Once you are on the IRS' radar you ain't getting out of it scot-free as you are royally screwed (Rollo, sorry I should have asked permission first to use your royal term). This is why the accused will begin to "rat out" others and try to appear as they are cooperating with the investigation.
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Old 09-28-2017, 10:29 AM
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But in the absence of meaningful change regarding amateurism, there will be no meaningful change at all. We will all shake our heads and our fingers at the current scandal, give our full-throated speeches, and the NCAA will say "threat to integrity" and "antithetical to what college sports is about" and act righteously indignant. Then, we will all go on to the next game, and the NCAA will go on to the next big contract.

Money will find a way. In NCAA sports, it always does.
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Old 09-28-2017, 10:30 AM
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Miami, Fla is now school 7, involved with player 12.
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Old 09-28-2017, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by UncleFester View Post
I wish I would have listened better to Jay Bilas on Mike & Mike this morning. Say what you will
About him, he is a basketball guy and a lawyer. He was explaining the federal charges, and from what I
remember, he said any school that accepts any form of money from the Federal government that exceeds
"x" amount ( I believe it was a paltry $40K ) is open to this investigation. He then proceeded to say that
student athletes are considered an "asset" on the university ledger ( for their potential profitability ). Thus, with all
the shenanigans with the bribes etc, these government funded entities cannot properly determine their expenditures
or income from these "assets". The assets are being illegally manipulated from outside or inside sources.
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
Any school that accepts federal dollars for student loans is fair game. In other words, every school except Hillsdale.
Originally Posted by rollo View Post
True. But they are State employees who cannot use their position to accept outside money for power or influence or perception of same.

Should the assistant or head coach be allowed to take money from Honda for each car a current player buys from them? Or get kickbacks from Milanos for taking recruits out to eat?

I'm not an elected official but as a gov't employee I can't take a coke from your local landfill for fear the next decision I make that benefits them may have been influenced.
Today's WSJ: https://www.wsj.com/articles/probe-i...ies-1506553296

"The government’s sprawling investigation into bribery in top-tier college basketball programs has prompted some in the sports and legal communities to question whether the alleged activity violates federal law."

"The investigation is unusual because while the alleged misconduct violates National Collegiate Athletic Association rules, some legal experts say it may not have necessarily broken federal law."

"
Gabe Feldman, a sports law professor at Tulane University Law School, said it was fair to question whether prosecutors were overreaching in trying “to turn what might be an NCAA violation into a criminal violation.”
“The conduct itself doesn’t necessarily appear to violate any laws, standing on their own,” he said. “But it’s the combination of factors that appear to have convinced the government to bring this case.”
Prosecutors in the criminal complaints are primarily alleging violations of federal bribery and fraud laws. The charges are likely to face challenges in court, legal experts say.
All four coaches were charged with honest-services fraud conspiracy. The government accuses the coaches of depriving the universities of their “honest services” as university employees by soliciting and receiving bribes.
Honest-services fraud is a crime under the federal wire-fraud statute, a broad law that is widely used by prosecutors to charge virtually any type of fraud that involves an email or phone call. Every defendant in this case was also charged with wire-fraud conspiracy.
The law governing honest-services fraud is both controversial and in flux, lawyers said. The definition of what it means to deprive an employer of honest services is vague, and a 2010 Supreme Court ruling narrowed the definition of honest-services fraud to cover only certain types of bribery and kickback schemes. The statute has often been used to charge corrupt politicians."


This is my point, it might be unethical but I'm struggling to say illegal.

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  #187  
Old 09-28-2017, 10:34 AM
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Hard to justify paying athletes when they come to school with thousands of dollars worth of tattoos.

Athletes did just fine for 50 plus years, now we have those who feel entitled. A free 100kmplus education isn't enough.
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Old 09-28-2017, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
This is my point, it might be unethical but I'm struggling to say illegal.
The FBI wouldn't have done 2 years of work to undercover the payments if it hadn't first passed the 'legal/illegal' litmus test.
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  #189  
Old 09-28-2017, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
The FBI wouldn't have done 2 years of work to undercover the payments if it hadn't first passed the 'legal/illegal' litmus test.
Again, not saying you're wrong, but, when you read that the Feds are getting creative in order to bring charges, it means it's not a slam dunk. Their conviction rate is <100% so the more they push it the more that % will drop.

There are a great many things that are unethical but legal. There's a reason we have a Supreme Court to keep other courts in check.
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Old 09-28-2017, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Again, not saying you're wrong, but, when you read that the Feds are getting creative in order to bring charges, it means it's not a slam dunk. Their conviction rate is <100% so the more they push it the more that % will drop.

There are a great many things that are unethical but legal. There's a reason we have a Supreme Court to keep other courts in check.

Do you think all these folks declared these cash payments as income on their tax returns? Think Al Capone.
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Old 09-28-2017, 11:16 AM
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But in the absence of meaningful change regarding amateurism, there will be no meaningful change at all. We will all shake our heads and our fingers at the current scandal, give our full-throated speeches, and the NCAA will say "threat to integrity" and "antithetical to what college sports is about" and act righteously indignant. Then, we will all go on to the next game, and the NCAA will go on to the next big contract.

Money will find a way. In NCAA sports, it always does.

Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Hard to justify paying athletes when they come to school with thousands of dollars worth of tattoos.

Athletes did just fine for 50 plus years, now we have those who feel entitled. A free 100kmplus education isn't enough.

There was talk this morning on Mike & Mike where it was said a way to get this resolved is to finally pay players.

Well lets use human nature here. You yourself know that if you are making $45k wouldn't you like to make $60k if you could? If you make $60k wouldn't you like to make $75k?

So the NCAA allows everyone to pay players $X amount. Now the playing field is even right? Well for a short period of time, until school Y sees a 5* recruit and an associate coach has a 'way' of giving the recruit more $ to influence a decision toward coach's university. It is more than the allowable $X. So pretty soon the 'allowable amount' is just a new starting point for those great recruits to be enticed to go to those schools which did the dirty dance before.

I don't see this truly being completely solved by paying players.. .
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  #192  
Old 09-28-2017, 11:51 AM
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This becomes a federal violation when it crosses state lines. Most of these recruits are going to schools and taking visits in states other than their own.
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Old 09-28-2017, 11:56 AM
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It won't be college sports if they start paying players the kind of $s that are being discussed. It will be some type of minor league with the schools as sponsors.
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  #194  
Old 09-28-2017, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by GoFlyer View Post
Does UD have a shoe contract?

Also, any word on how Arizona is responding re Miller to the charges against Richardson?
Yes, Men's and Women's basketball and most of the sports have been Nike for awhile. I believe they went to an entire Athletic Department deal after the E8 when they rebranded. Pretty much all colleges from DI all the way down to DIII have some sort of shoe and clothing deal. Heck, most of the bigger high schools these days do as well.
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Old 09-28-2017, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
I thought the same thing. Hope he has done his diligence.
If UD was involved with illegal activities to get top recruits sent our way, we suck at cheating
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Old 09-28-2017, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
Yes, Men's and Women's basketball and most of the sports have been Nike for awhile. I believe they went to an entire Athletic Department deal after the E8 when they rebranded.
I think baseball and softball are the only sports that don't use Nike. From pictures it looks like they use New Balance shoes and get jerseys from Rawlings and some other companies too.
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Old 09-28-2017, 01:20 PM
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It's starting to roll down hill

About 4 hours ago:


http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...bpoena-sources


The federal investigation into the corrupting influence of money in college basketball has now ensnared Nike.

Sources familiar with the investigation confirmed to ESPN and ABC News that Nike's grassroots basketball division, referred to as the Elite Youth Basketball League, has been served with a subpoena, as federal prosecutors in New York and the FBI dig deeper into what they've called the "dark underbelly" of college basketball.
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Old 09-28-2017, 01:31 PM
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And rollin' some more

You're dealing with the Fed's ... the means at their disposal is HUGE!

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...aches-programs

Some of college sports' most high-profile athletic administrators and basketball coaches, and even players and recruits, are likely to soon face pressure unlike anything they have ever encountered as a federal corruption and fraud case that was announced Tuesday expands and continues, lawyers and former federal investigators say.

A harsh reality of such cases, said Guy Lewis, a former U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Florida, is the desire of federal investigators to determine how high up the alleged corruption and fraud go, meaning whether the malfeasance reaches into the upper echelons of athletic departments and university administrations. Investigators will determine that by applying pressure to those already charged by demanding more details, by hauling in witnesses for questioning, by issuing subpoenas and by seeking search warrants, among other tools.

"It is a fundamentally different ballgame," Lewis said. "The federal government's ability to investigate and turn over leads and pursue evidence in an almost unlimited way is real and dramatic."
As stated in the piece ' this is not the end but the beginning".

Also can you image if the FBI had wire tapped some of these guys'?
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Old 09-28-2017, 01:32 PM
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The federal government has a number of broad laws which can be used to prosecute activities which were not considered when the law was passed. The RICO law which was passed to get at organized crime is used to justify prosecution of just about any activity in which there is collusion.

Obstruction of Justice is another crime which can nail anybody for just about anything. Even if you are innocent of any underlying crime, if the federal government Justice Dept believes you are making it hard for them to do their job then regardless of your intent or even if you are not making it hard, they are likely to file an obstruction of justice case against you and you are presumed guilty until proven innocent. This is why politicians and political appointees get lawyered up even when they know they have done nothing.

My point is Just because the Federal Government says there is a crime worthy of prosecution does not necessarily mean it is so. And it certainly does not mean every perceived violation of every law needs to be prosecuted. Otherwise we would all be in prison especially given the broad interpretations given to the law.
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  #200  
Old 09-28-2017, 01:35 PM
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Any attorney who does criminal work knows that there is no honor among thieves. While the substance of these allegations probably may not be stealing, larceny etc., there are aspects of conspiracy. Certainly income tax evasion. In any event, when prosecutors offer a deal to a defendant, they want something in return. If it's a small drug possession, they want to know where and from whom you bought the drug. If you want a non-custodial sentence or just a fine, you must have something to give in return.

Prosecutors will work hard to flip a defendant into cooperation in obtaining evidence against other bigger fish. I would not be surprised if one of the original four assistance coaches, or any assistant coach charged hereafter, harbors a grudge against his head coach. "I bring in all the recruits and he gets all the credit." A lot of financial conspiracies fall apart when one person does not feel he got a fair amounts from the others.

I said in the beginning that this is a very big deal and will not go away quickly or quietly. There will be many people including schools, school administrators, coaches, players etc. who will be forever damaged, careers and lives ruined.
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