Would A Move To The AAC Make Sense?

m21eagle45 · #1 02-11-2017, 12:06 PM

Rumors have emerged that the AAC is looking at Wichita St as a basketball only addition to the AAC. Would this be a move for UD to look at instead of the Big East? I think playing the likes of UC, UConn, Temple, and SMU would be a welcomed addition to our schedule. I haven't given this much thought since this was the first time that I saw this article today, but thought it would be an interesting outside the box idea.

http://www.fanragsports.com/cbb/sour...-addition-aac/

sheg · #2 02-11-2017, 12:20 PM

Wichita makes sense for the AAC because they have a non football spot open ( because Navy is a football only member).

The American wouldn't be a terrible spot for UD if UC and UConn stayed ( but you know both would leave in a heartbeat if they could). Further, UD would always be a second class citizen to the football schools.

The A10 is the right place for now. If some combination of VCU, SLU, URI, UMass, SJU, Richmond ever left, maybe not so much.

BRob2Perryman3 · #3 02-11-2017, 12:34 PM

AAC, no way. Big East or bust. Rather stay A-10

AC91 · #4 02-11-2017, 12:53 PM

none at all. the A10 is good for us because it is at a minimum basketball centric. the only place for us to be looking while the A10 is in its current form is a equal or better basketball centric conference that provides much more "juice" in terms of opponents and attention. And, until/unless there are significant changes altering the current landscape, there is only one conference that fits that bill for UD. Any other option has too many risks/issues for UD (football focus, too many large schools, no institutional similarities...) and really don't make sense.

C-time · #5 02-11-2017, 01:07 PM

NO.

I just don't think you want to be in a conference with football schools especially ones like UC and UConn who are looking to get out at the first opportunity. Those two leave and that conference is worthless.

San Diego Flyer · #6 02-11-2017, 01:39 PM

Only makes sense if you are a masochist and like to be out-voted 11-1 on many important subjects.

ChrisInVenice · #7 02-11-2017, 03:37 PM

I know fans are constantly worried about UDs path to the NCAAs, but beat NW and Nebraska and there is no question at this point. Keep Big Steve and this team is probable top 15.

Am I the only one that enjoys A10 basketball? These are the most competitive, fun games to watch since the ND, Evansville, X and Marquette days as an indy.

podcast411 · #8 02-11-2017, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisInVenice

Am I the only one that enjoys A10 basketball? These are the most competitive, fun games to watch since the ND, Evansville, X and Marquette days as an indy.

Maybe not the only one -but one of the few - and definitely not with anyone on the selection committee. Big East is the one we are waiting to sell our soul to be part of.

ClaytonFlyerFan · #9 02-11-2017, 03:55 PM

Let Cincinnati and probably Uconn end up in the big 5 football playing conference they all want to be in, and eventually will be in.

Take the cream of the crop from the AAC, A-10, and MVC and form our own 12 team super conference.

Smitty10 · #10 02-11-2017, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisInVenice

I know fans are constantly worried about UDs path to the NCAAs, but beat NW and Nebraska and there is no question at this point. Keep Big Steve and this team is probable top 15.

Am I the only one that enjoys A10 basketball? These are the most competitive, fun games to watch since the ND, Evansville, X and Marquette days as an indy.

They are enjoyable games yes. However, I just don't see the A10 staying put and not declining. Once we lost Temple and Xavier, there's going to be a natural and invisible decline taking place as recruiting becomes more difficult for all programs in the conference. You live and die based on your conference as a whole and UD is one of the givers, not the takers. We stand to lose more by staying put. All that AM has built could crumble in a hurry if he leaves and we are still losing periodically to UMass/LaSalle etc... while trading wins with VCU.

xubrew · #11 02-11-2017, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by m21eagle45

Rumors have emerged that the AAC is looking at Wichita St as a basketball only addition to the AAC. Would this be a move for UD to look at instead of the Big East? I think playing the likes of UC, UConn, Temple, and SMU would be a welcomed addition to our schedule. I haven't given this much thought since this was the first time that I saw this article today, but thought it would be an interesting outside the box idea.

http://www.fanragsports.com/cbb/sour...-addition-aac/

I'm hearing something else. Wichita State is looking at adding football, and the AAC would consider inviting them as a full 12th member if they did. It's to the point to where they've hired consultants to identify different options of how to go about adding it. Navy is only an affiliate member, and they would presumably become an independent again if this happened.

I don't think they would consider a basketball only member. I think they should consider one because Navy is a good program to have as a football affiliate member, but I just don't think they will.

springborofan · #12 02-11-2017, 05:50 PM

Any school would be crazy to add football right now. How is that working out for UNC-Charlotte and Old Dominion? They moved from to Conference USA and both are struggling to keep basketball relevant. Foolish move.

The Big 5 MAY let 2-3 more teams into their exclusive club but that is it (my $ is on Houston and UC--sorry UConn). Wichita State has ZERO chance of being one. They take their eye off the ball and they'll end up middle of the pack in a diminished AAC after the 2 or 3 move on.

I'd have no issue with grabbing the top teams from MVC, A-10, and AAC and making a basketball centric conference but it isn't going to happen until the Big 5 completely closes the door and the football wannabe's finally realize the economics of college football at the less than Big 5 conferences is a waste of their students money.

TerryK_67 · #13 02-11-2017, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Smitty10

They are enjoyable games yes. However, I just don't see the A10 staying put and not declining. Once we lost Temple and Xavier, there's going to be a natural and invisible decline taking place as recruiting becomes more difficult for all programs in the conference. You live and die based on your conference as a whole and UD is one of the givers, not the takers. We stand to lose more by staying put. All that AM has built could crumble in a hurry if he leaves and we are still losing periodically to UMass/LaSalle etc... while trading wins with VCU.

That is a pretty negative spin on things.... The A10 has the potential to continue to be a very competitive league. The new Big Least is over rated, and just might not be able to continue the perceived status that they currently seem to be enjoying.... Time will tell. We just need to keep winning and things will work out just fine! Pi$$ on the new Big Least!
GO FLYERS

m21eagle45 · #14 02-11-2017, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by TerryK_67

That is a pretty negative spin on things.... The A10 has the potential to continue to be a very competitive league. The new Big Least is over rated, and just might not be able to continue the perceived status that they currently seem to be enjoying.... Time will tell. We just need to keep winning and things will work out just fine! Pi$$ on the new Big Least!
GO FLYERS

Don't get me wrong, I do not like many of the schools in the BE and hope that a couple never win a game again...But overrated? Come on really? They have the defending national champion, multiple ranked teams, a likely number 1 seed again this year, and will get 4-6 teams in yet again this year. Not to mention being rated 3rd, 4th, 2nd, and 4th in RPI the last 4 years. I don't like the BE anymore than anyone else around here, but it deserves a little more respect than this.

UD62 · #15 02-11-2017, 06:11 PM

Pains me to say it but the NBE is not overrated. The addition of X, Butler and Creighton has been a success, all three ranked, RPI wise the league is near the top. We may get in we may not but the strength of the NBE is far superior to the A-10. If our stated goal is to make the Dance most years the A-10 can do that for us. I realize the benefits of a move but it may be a ways off, if at all.

Smitty10 · #16 02-11-2017, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by TerryK_67

That is a pretty negative spin on things.... The A10 has the potential to continue to be a very competitive league. The new Big Least is over rated, and just might not be able to continue the perceived status that they currently seem to be enjoying.... Time will tell. We just need to keep winning and things will work out just fine! Pi$$ on the new Big Least!
GO FLYERS

Funny you used the word "spin". Absolutely nothing I said was close to spin. What you just posted is darn near the definition of the word.

jack72 · #17 02-11-2017, 06:19 PM

The BE is being hyped right up there with the Big5 conferences. That and their success will help their recruiting of players and coaches. Sad to say, but the A10 will never catch them, except in an occasional freak year.

TXFlyerFan · #18 02-11-2017, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by m21eagle45

Don't get me wrong, I do not like many of the schools in the BE and hope that a couple never win a game again...But overrated? Come on really? They have the defending national champion, multiple ranked teams, a likely number 1 seed again this year, and will get 4-6 teams in yet again this year. Not to mention being rated 3rd, 4th, 2nd, and 4th in RPI the last 4 years. I don't like the BE anymore than anyone else around here, but it deserves a little more respect than this.

Our of curiosity, how is Xavier ranked 24? 18 - 7 record, I don't see any wins over any teams ranked in the top 25. Maybe they were when they won some but aren't now.

TXFlyerFan · #19 02-11-2017, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by jack72

The BE is being hyped right up there with the Big5 conferences. That and their success will help their recruiting of players and coaches. Sad to say, but the A10 will never catch them, except in an occasional freak year.

The A-10 doesn't need to catch them. Gonzaga plays in the WCC, St. Mary's is the only other good team in that league. They just have success year after year, in a bad league. If Dayton can come to dominate the A-10, they'll have everything they need to sustain the recruiting wins Archie is having.

C-time · #20 02-11-2017, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan

The A-10 doesn't need to catch them. Gonzaga plays in the WCC, St. Mary's is the only other good team in that league..

BYU is also in the WCC and they are traditionally pretty good despite being a little down this season.

CoffeeCan · #21 02-11-2017, 07:33 PM

A10 is the best place for us. Until the Big East invite us in. Whether or not that happens remains to be seen.

All Catholic schools (except Butler), no football, big name schools that will get us good competition in conference play.

Wouldn't it be nice to have big games on campus versus ranked opponents on a regular basis again?

The opportunity to get big wins and not have to worry primarily about avoiding bad losses? We do a good job with scheduling, but if we don't win the non-con games that we need to in November we have to almost run the table or freak out every March due to our SOS or lack of top 50 games (and wins).

It's not that the A10 is bad. Far from it. It is the best setup we have had and we have had success in the A10. But the Big East has so much more. If the phone rings, UD will answer. And I hope we are calling as well.

Smitty10 · #22 02-11-2017, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan

The A-10 doesn't need to catch them. Gonzaga plays in the WCC, St. Mary's is the only other good team in that league. They just have success year after year, in a bad league. If Dayton can come to dominate the A-10, they'll have everything they need to sustain the recruiting wins Archie is having.

There's a heck of a lot less competition on the West Coast for the players that Gonzaga desires than there are here for the players the Flyers would need to keep up. Plus, those cities on the west coast are an appeal to players where Dayton not so much.

xubrew · #23 02-11-2017, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by springborofan

Any school would be crazy to add football right now. How is that working out for UNC-Charlotte and Old Dominion? They moved from to Conference USA and both are struggling to keep basketball relevant. Foolish move.

As I said, they're reportedly looking at all their options. Do they bring it in at the Pioneer League level? Do they bring it in at the FCS level and perhaps joined the Missouri Valley Football Conference? Do they bring it straight into the FBS level and perhaps join the American? Do they bring it in at the FCS level and perhaps transition up to the FBS at a later time if they feel that they can?? Do they not bring it in at all??

I believe the Missouri Valley's TV deal is $650k a year and the exposure is limited. The AAC's deal is $2.2 million a year, and that does not include the approximately $1.5 million they get from the CFP. They get the most out of all the non power five leagues. And, the league has higher exposure. And the competition is better. So, I can see how they would at least consider that option if it's on the table.

Football, even if it's at the lower level of the FBS, does get a school's brand out there in September and October. And even if a school is at the FCS level, it gets the brand out to its students, almumni, and boosters. Even if a school only averages about 7000 fans a game, there aren't too many campus functions of any kind that assemble that many people. If you don't have football, your brand isn't out there at all in September and October, and even when November rolls around your brand usually isn't on the front page.

Football does grow the school's brand, and can at least indirectly grow a school's overall athletic department. I think it's like mac and cheese. Football and basketball can make each other better. Villanova was the first non-FBS school to win the national title since 1999, and that was when UConn won it, who was in the process of transitioning up to FBS (1A at the time). And 1999 was the first time it had happened since 1985 when Nova won it that year. The last school to win a national title without football of any kind was Marquette in 1977. So, there's that. So, I don't think it's stupid at all. I think it would be stupid to just jump into it without a plan, and I think a lot of schools who have struggled have gone about it like that, but that's not what they're doing. It may not have worked out so well for Charlotte (at least not yet), but I think it has helped schools like UTSA, South Alabama, and Old Dominion. Their basketball downfall had nothing to do with football. It had to do with Blaine Taylor's...umm...episode. We'll just call it that.

TerryK_67 · #24 02-11-2017, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan

Our of curiosity, how is Xavier ranked 24? 18 - 7 record, I don't see any wins over any teams ranked in the top 25. Maybe they were when they won some but aren't now.

Hmmm .... but don't try to tell any of the Big Least apologists that the Big Least is over rated.....

m21eagle45 · #25 02-11-2017, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by TerryK_67

Hmmm .... but don't try to tell any of the Big Least apologists that the Big Least is over rated.....

I am not an apologist, just calling it like I see it...When you're wrong you're wrong!

TXFlyerFan · #26 02-11-2017, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by Smitty10

There's a heck of a lot less competition on the West Coast for the players that Gonzaga desires than there are here for the players the Flyers would need to keep up. Plus, those cities on the west coast are an appeal to players where Dayton not so much.

Before Butler joined the NBE and resided in the Horizon, they were able to dominate year in/year out, recruit players who fit their scheme, and made to trips to the final four. the Horizon isn't even as good as the A10. I'm just saying that if you recruit the right type of players and dominate your conference, things will take care of themselves.

Avid Flyer · #27 02-11-2017, 11:38 PM

Absolutely, we'd fit right in. All we need to do is build a new arena, build a football stadium, go scholarship and hire John Gruden as our coach.

I say lets go for it

Smitty10 · #28 02-12-2017, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan

Before Butler joined the NBE and resided in the Horizon, they were able to dominate year in/year out, recruit players who fit their scheme, and made to trips to the final four. the Horizon isn't even as good as the A10. I'm just saying that if you recruit the right type of players and dominate your conference, things will take care of themselves.

That was a fluke in timing. First of all, yes, Butler used back to back NCAA Final appearances to take a brief step into the A10 right as NBE is looking at A10 for a few teams.

Do you think that Butler could've remained in the Horizon and still been as good as they are today? I don't. Nor had they remained in the A10. That's really the point. Their success really is the fact they got to the NBE. We can't achieve that kind of success by staying in the A10.

CE80 · #29 02-12-2017, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Smitty10

That was a fluke in timing. First of all, yes, Butler used back to back NCAA Final appearances to take a brief step into the A10 right as NBE is looking at A10 for a few teams.

Do you think that Butler could've remained in the Horizon and still been as good as they are today? I don't. Nor had they remained in the A10. That's really the point. Their success really is the fact they got to the NBE. We can't achieve that kind of success by staying in the A10.

I really don't want to get into the discussion of joining a a conference we are trying to get into and would join in a heartbeat but we have not been invited but I have to say BS to the above.

You don't know what Butler would have done if they had not joined the BE. I agree it helps but the BE is the not the be all end all. There is a lot more to it. I think Butler has the right administration and has done a good job with coaching transitions. Creighton has done the same. X was already doing it before the BE. What about DePaul? St. Johns? If the BE is the magic ticket, why can't 2 schools, with a rich tradition in what are probably 2 of the biggest hoops cities in the world, get out of the cellar they have been in for years. I can hear the comeback know about where the campuses are located, arenas, yada, yada. yada. Did I forget Georgetown? It comes down to the administration and picking the right coaches. Look at the success the Flyers are having now. What are the reasons.

The BE is in the enviable position of being able to play the RPI game to a tee. They get money so even the teams that don't draw big crowds are able to schedule OOC so they get wins. That boosts all team's RPIs. No doubt Nova, X, Butler, Creighton are good but Seton Hall, Providence and the rest have their RPIs inflated because of conference scheduling. It is one of the reasons I don't like RPI. It is possible to game the system.

Viperstick · #30 02-12-2017, 08:44 AM

I agree about the upgrade in competition. However, how is this situation any different from the old Big East with football/non-football tension? While it would be nice to play UCONN, Cincy, Temple, and SMU (currently), it would blow to be in a post-realignment league with only ECU, Tulane, and UCF.

CoffeeCan · #31 02-12-2017, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan

Before Butler joined the NBE and resided in the Horizon, they were able to dominate year in/year out, recruit players who fit their scheme, and made to trips to the final four. the Horizon isn't even as good as the A10. I'm just saying that if you recruit the right type of players and dominate your conference, things will take care of themselves.

Correct. But once they were invited, they moved on to greener pastures. Again, we are in a good position. But the Big East is a greener pasture for sure. And the A10 apologists know it.

UDGutter2 · #32 02-12-2017, 09:53 AM

Of course you join, they could use a basketball only school to get to 16 teams as long as Notre Dame doesn't join in football. The packed Arena would be rocking every night of conference play, and the non conference would get an instant upgrade.

Oh, wait, you said AAC, not ACC, never mind, a guy can dream can't he.

ud2 · #33 02-12-2017, 10:02 AM

Hasn't the A10 been better than or tied with the AAC in the conference rpi rankings since the AAC was formed about 4 years ago?

Cincinnati and Connecticut are extremely desperate to get out of the AAC. The AAC seems like it is on very unstable footing.

I get that Cincinnati, UConn, Temple, SMU, and Memphis would possibly offer more top 50 games, but Temple has struggled a bit the past couple/few years with Dunphy, it seems that SMU has only been good recently since Larry Brown took over and then just left, UC and UConn already have one foot out the door, and Memphis has struggled a bit the past couple/few years with Pastner and Tubby Smith.

Also, football complicates matters.

I think I would vote to stay in the A10.

ud2 · #34 02-12-2017, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan

Our of curiosity, how is Xavier ranked 24? 18 - 7 record, I don't see any wins over any teams ranked in the top 25. Maybe they were when they won some but aren't now.

They might want to be careful that they do not end up in the first four or something. Their leading scorer, Bluiett, missed yesterday's game, but VU's center, Reynolds, also missed the game...the center was averaging 5 and 6.

They have the next 3 on the road, and they still have to face Butler at home.

I guess they will be fine, but I will not be surprised if things start to get rough if Bluiett does not return quickly.

I don't know how the selection committee would respond to 11 or 12 or 13 losses.

jack72 · #35 02-12-2017, 10:46 AM

X is 14th in the RPI and 4th in SOS, and second in a very tough conference (3rd ranked). They are firmly in the NCAA, and were a Top25 team. They are no longer a Top25 team, as they lost their best player, and now their second best is hurt.

BRob2Perryman3 · #36 02-12-2017, 11:03 AM

Yeah that Trevon Blueitt injury is a real shame, and on the heels of Sumner's. What a shame. Feel bad for the players as people because they are better guys then many of their predecessors, but the look of angst on the fans faces after adversity is priceless.

_avier's 2017 NCAA Second Round hopes? Zip'em up!

hawkoooo · #37 02-12-2017, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3

AAC, no way. Big East or bust. Rather stay A-10

Really? Wow. So if the AAC added UD, Wichita St., VCU, etc. and became a perennial top-5 RPI conference that would be a BAD thing? Color me confused.

BRob2Perryman3 · #38 02-12-2017, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by hawkoooo

Really? Wow. So if the AAC added UD, Wichita St., VCU, etc. and became a perennial top-5 RPI conference that would be a BAD thing? Color me confused.

Nothing confusing about it. UC and UConn will be gone. Theres more dumpster fires in the AAC then the A-10. I just typed all my thoughts out in a PM to someone else but the gist is if it isnt the Big East id rather just stay A-10 OR start a super conference where we cherry pick 4 or 5 other conferences.

Trust me, if VCU,Dayton and Wichita replace UC,UConn and maybe Temple we are all worsening are current situations.

As of right now the Power 5 and Big East have a stranglehold on the top 6 of conf. RPI. No shifting of anyhing below those 6 will change that.

Swampy Meadows · #39 02-12-2017, 03:23 PM

To answer the question posed in the thread title:

NO
Posted via Mobile Device

longtimefan · #40 02-12-2017, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by hawkoooo

Really? Wow. So if the AAC added UD, Wichita St., VCU, etc. and became a perennial top-5 RPI conference that would be a BAD thing? Color me confused.

One, they are talking about adding only one school. Two, if they added several basketball-only schools, the league would turn into the old Big East where the football schools ran things and the basketball schools became more and more disillusioned. Although, the basketball schools could then break away and add some good basketball schools to form a great conference, just like the Big East basketball schools did. Maybe it would work out!

UACFlyer · #41 02-12-2017, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by longtimefan

One, they are talking about adding only one school. Two, if they added several basketball-only schools, the league would turn into the old Big East where the football schools ran things and the basketball schools became more and more disillusioned. Although, the basketball schools could then break away and add some good basketball schools to form a great conference, just like the Big East basketball schools did. Maybe it would work out!

At one time the old BE was a strong conference, even in FB,...and the conference had a good and growing TV contract. But there was always turmoil resulting from the hybrid FB/BB model.

Rather than the FB schools "running things", it was the non-FB schools that had undue influence that ultimately led to the stunningly rapid demise of the conference....a conference that just a year before it collapsed turned away a $3 billion TV deal because it thought it could do better.

The old BE was a conference in which small schools investing practically nothing in athletics, e.g., Providence, Seton Hall, had the same voting power as large public schools like UC, Pitt, UConn.

The incredible blunder made by the public and large private BE FB schools was not separating from the BB schools. Just a year before collapse schools like TCU were begging to join the BE. And this was after the likes of BC, Va Tech and Miami had left. Even after the aforementioned defections, the BE had reconstituted itself and was relatively healthy. In such good shape that the likes of Villanova...a UD peer institution,....made the incredibly stupid decision to upgrade FB to Div 1 level. All the action was derived from FB and VU knew that and sold the upgrade to its Trustees on that basis.

God was a watching over VU....the BE collapsed suddenly before VU had committed the tens of millions needed for the planned upgrade.

The nail in the coffin was the ACC poaching Pitt and SU. Thus was born the notion that FB and BB should split. But it was too late to alter the fate of the FB schools left in the crumbing BE FB program that has become the American.

Someone pointed out that schools like UC and UConn will do almost anything to join a Power 5 conference. They're right. And the reason is money. The two schools mentioned and probably other American schools have athletic budgets that are on a Power 5 level and above....with no TV revenue which runs in the tens of millions for Power 5 schools. That money deficit has to be made up by a university subsidy of tens of millions...which is not sustainable.

Thus, this problem goes well beyond athletics. The American schools for the most part are large, well known schools. It's not that Power 5 schools are better schools; it's that they have $30-$40 million each in annual TV money. It's a cartel the legality of which I question.

If a Power 5 conference ever decides that 16 schools would be financially beneficial another round of realignment will occur as they poach one another.

UD can thank God it is not part of the current train wreck that big time college athletics has become.

Jeff · #42 02-12-2017, 07:55 PM

Just to take an contrarian position:

What exactly does the A10 do for us? Seems like every year we are anxiously waiting for a last four in, or 9-12 seed. All with the senior class that will finish with the most career wins. Temple, X, and Butler (short timer) all left. I think it's worked out OK for 2 of the 3.

Perhaps the A10 will be the Gonzaga model for us. Since we are all waiting for the "perfect" invite, the better question may be what does the A10 need to do to upgrade?

UACFlyer · #43 02-12-2017, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff

Just to take an contrarian position:

What exactly does the A10 do for us? Seems like every year we are anxiously waiting for a last four in, or 9-12 seed. All with the senior class that will finish with the most career wins. Temple, X, and Butler (short timer) all left. I think it's worked out OK for 2 of the 3.

Perhaps the A10 will be the Gonzaga model for us. Since we are all waiting for the "perfect" invite, the better question may be what does the A10 need to do to upgrade?

Only a BE invite make sense for a UD move, in my opinion. The odds don't look great for that....unless UD makes the dance year-after-year and advances regularly.

UD is a jewel for the A-10. That should provide some clout, I think. There are A-10 schools for which BB is very important. I would hope that UD will take the lead and exert maximum pressure to improve a good league. No fundamental reason why the A-10 cannot be on a par with the BE, again, in my opinion.

CoffeeCan · #44 02-12-2017, 09:15 PM

Let's say the NCAA gave UD the ability to design their own conference. What would it look like? Since we do not have football, the power that be would probably opt to go that direction. Geography, rivalries, prestige, TV contracts, religious affiliation are some factors they would choose from.

So, what would they do? I think it would look something a lot more like the BE than the A10.

TXFlyerFan · #45 02-12-2017, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff

Just to take an contrarian position:

What exactly does the A10 do for us? Seems like every year we are anxiously waiting for a last four in, or 9-12 seed. All with the senior class that will finish with the most career wins. Temple, X, and Butler (short timer) all left. I think it's worked out OK for 2 of the 3.

Perhaps the A10 will be the Gonzaga model for us. Since we are all waiting for the "perfect" invite, the better question may be what does the A10 need to do to upgrade?

If we won the conference title and or tournament near every year, we wouldn't be waiting for a last four in or 9-12 seed. I would venture to say that if we had Big Steve and Josh and Kendall had been healthy all year, we'd be looking at a significantly higher seed. Winning solves any problem being in the A10 brings except more money.

Columbia Blue · #46 02-13-2017, 01:15 AM

A fading memory from the depths of the O'Brien era ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Midwest_Conference

Dayton upgraded from the MCC (now Horizon) in 1993 (leaving Xavier behind) to the fledging Great Midwest Conference, joining Cincinnati, UAB, Memphis, Depaul, Marquette, and St Louis. The only game we won in two seasons was an upset of ranked SLU. The commissioner was Mike Slive who went onto the same post for SEC.

The Great Midwest was mostly basketball-centric, but was blown up during the D1/FBS football gold rush, morphing into Conference USA with Depaul and Marquette as basketball-only members. Dayton was abandoned and frankly lucky to garner an invite to the Atlantic 10.

Based on that history alone, there's absolutely NOTHING for us in the AAC. The A10 as currently configured suits our needs and profile quite well, assuming we can sustain in its Top 4. SLU will recover, Davidson will have better years, and Rhody, VCU, and Richmond (to a lesser extent) are developing rivalries.

Would love to hear any other anecdotes on the rise and demise of Great Midwest ...

Interesting Retrospective, 2015
http://hoopshd.com/2015/12/31/throwb...st-conference/

UD Announcement from Chicago Tribune, 1992
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...-memphis-state

shocka43 · #47 02-13-2017, 08:40 AM

UD has power in the A10...this is evident by being able to be heard loudly when negotiating pods. The A10 knows this and wants the top teams in the A10 to have the best resumes come tournament time.

While certain teams in the AAC may warm some of your giblets, it is more lateral than anything. In the past the arguments leaned towards doing what is right with the ultimate goal of getting to the NCAA's consistently and advancing in the tournament. Right now, that is a pretty good trend that UD is observing. Nothing states that UD has any better chance of advancing to a FF in another conference versus now. The pieces were in place this year for the best opportunity for a deep run than most of us have seen in our lifetime. It didn't happen, but not to say it can't.

Stability is a major factor. No move will be made without a certain level of guaranteed stability. The A10 is pretty darn stable. Yes, teams have left...but they were also replaced with decent schools.

UD can achieve what they want to achieve in the A10. A certain conference doesn't guarantee you anything. A forward thinking administration and coaching staff makes all the difference. Not the conference.

hawkoooo · #48 02-13-2017, 09:18 AM

I'm going to have to eat my words here. Did not think about the prospect of UConn/UC leaving. My sincerest apologies.

On a similar note, what do ya'll think about the potential of some current Big 12 schools being left out of the future Power 5 shuffles? If they go to 4 conferences of 16, that leaves 2 leftovers, and 4 leftovers if UConn/UC are plucked from the AAC.

Kansas State, Iowa State, Baylor, etc may be in trouble. Presumably they would go to the AAC but who knows? Perhaps, as suggested above, once the dust has settled the A10, AAC, MVC and leftover Big 12 schools will make a new super conference.

CoffeeCan · #49 02-13-2017, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by shocka43

UD can achieve what they want to achieve in the A10. A certain conference doesn't guarantee you anything. A forward thinking administration and coaching staff makes all the difference. Not the conference.

If this the case, then why should any recruit go to Duke, or UNC, or Kansas if they could? I mean, stay at home and go to Eastern Illinois or something. After all, as you say "a certain conference doesn't guarantee anything"

hawkoooo · #50 02-13-2017, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by hawkoooo

I'm going to have to eat my words here. Did not think about the prospect of UConn/UC leaving. My sincerest apologies.

On a similar note, what do ya'll think about the potential of some current Big 12 schools being left out of the future Power 5 shuffles? If they go to 4 conferences of 16, that leaves 2 leftovers, and 4 leftovers if UConn/UC are plucked from the AAC.

Kansas State, Iowa State, Baylor, etc may be in trouble. Presumably they would go to the AAC but who knows? Perhaps, as suggested above, once the dust has settled the A10, AAC, MVC and leftover Big 12 schools will make a new super conference.

Could potentially be 6 leftovers actually, if Houston and BYU end up in one of the 4 16-school leagues.

AC91 · #51 02-13-2017, 09:47 AM

UNless the college landscape changes, i think UD's (and most basketball-only schools) is to be in a basketball-centric conference. even if FBS shakes up again, i just don't see UD wanting much to do with a bunch of schools that want to be big time football schools. it just tends to take over the conversation. I also think the A10 is a pretty good fit for UD all things considered. If it had to draw it up, though, there is no doubt in my mind that it would look more like the Big East than the A10. there are a few A10- Schools that would likely make UD's "draw it up from scratch" list, but it views most of its institutional peers as the ones in the big east - highly regarded, catholic basketball schools. that is not a disparagement of the A10, just a logical inference based on how UD views itself as a University.

jerseyflyer09 · #52 02-13-2017, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by ChrisInVenice

I know fans are constantly worried about UDs path to the NCAAs, but beat NW and Nebraska and there is no question at this point. Keep Big Steve and this team is probable top 15.

Am I the only one that enjoys A10 basketball? These are the most competitive, fun games to watch since the ND, Evansville, X and Marquette days as an indy.

I can only speak for myself but you're definitely not the only one. My issue and why I want in the Big East so badly is because we're one more exodus (even 2 teams leaving) from the A10 falling significantly. To me it's more a fear of the unknown. If you were to tell me that the top 5 programs in the A10 would stay for 10 years I wouldn't spend a second worrying about a new conference, but knowing that's improbable the Big East seems more secure.

CT Flyer · #53 02-13-2017, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by jerseyflyer09

I can only speak for myself but you're definitely not the only one. My issue and why I want in the Big East so badly is because we're one more exodus (even 2 teams leaving) from the A10 falling significantly. To me it's more a fear of the unknown. If you were to tell me that the top 5 programs in the A10 would stay for 10 years I wouldn't spend a second worrying about a new conference, but knowing that's improbable the Big East seems more secure.

Which other A10 schools might leave and for where? It seems like UD is the most attractive team (with VCU, although UMass with football is also possible) so I doubt there will be movement in the A10 that we are not also a part of.

ud2 · #54 02-13-2017, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by UACFlyer

No fundamental reason why the A-10 cannot be on a par with the BE, again, in my opinion.

I am not seeing that ever happening.

The A10's expansion options IMO are limited due to geography and football.

I only see about 5 schools that I would want that would be a good fit.

Yes: Wichita State and Northern Iowa.

Maybe: Belmont, Murray State, and Valparaiso.

jerseyflyer09 · #55 02-13-2017, 10:52 AM

Hope you're right...I see VCU for the reason you mentioned, SLU scares me despite recent performance as they bring a new city into the fold for the Big East...Umass (football)...you may be right and it's a good point. Still, even a VCU departure weakens the league tremendously. I think it's always the responsibility of the decision makers to have their eye on greener pastures. It's all about self preservation and as much as I love the A10 you have to be selfish if you have a chance to make a run at a better opportunity.

CT Flyer · #56 02-13-2017, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by jerseyflyer09

Hope you're right...I see VCU for the reason you mentioned, SLU scares me despite recent performance as they bring a new city into the fold for the Big East...Umass (football)...you may be right and it's a good point. Still, even a VCU departure weakens the league tremendously. I think it's always the responsibility of the decision makers to have their eye on greener pastures. It's all about self preservation and as much as I love the A10 you have to be selfish if you have a chance to make a run at a better opportunity.

I think you have a legit concern with VCU, but I have to guess they have the same type of concerns as are being mentioned on this board about moving to another conference like the AAC and it being not stable with the knowledge that UConn, UC and probably Houston would leave that league in a heartbeat if asked by a P5 or during any major realigning. As for SLU I feel like any move they may have afforded to them would also be afforded to us (i.e. Big East.)

jerseyflyer09 · #57 02-13-2017, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by CT Flyer

I think you have a legit concern with VCU, but I have to guess they have the same type of concerns as are being mentioned on this board about moving to another conference like the AAC and it being not stable with the knowledge that UConn, UC and probably Houston would leave that league in a heartbeat if asked by a P5 or during any major realigning. As for SLU I feel like any move they may have afforded to them would also be afforded to us (i.e. Big East.)

Again, I'm optimistic you're right. But we also thought we were well-positioned for the Big East the last time around. If there's another expansion and they take on SLU (to get a new city) and say Wich State (just throwing it out there) we could really be in a bad spot.

CT Flyer · #58 02-13-2017, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by jerseyflyer09

Again, I'm optimistic you're right. But we also thought we were well-positioned for the Big East the last time around. If there's another expansion and they take on SLU (to get a new city) and say Wich State (just throwing it out there) we could really be in a bad spot.

I feel like the Big East, who obviously wants to get quality basketball schools, also wants schools that fit their mold more, i.e. Catholic, so I feel like we have an edge on Wichita St. there. But you are certainly right that if we are left out of the next conference moves we would be in trouble!

m21eagle45 · #59 02-13-2017, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by shocka43

Stability is a major factor. No move will be made without a certain level of guaranteed stability. The A10 is pretty darn stable. Yes, teams have left...but they were also replaced with decent schools.

I see it differently as far as stability goes. Because of football, UMass could be gone very soon. I know they do not want to drop to the Sunbelt, but they considered the MAC before ultimately deciding to go independent for football. They don't want a significant drop in all their other sports, including basketball just to have football in a conference. If CUSA or AAC come calling to add them for football, I could see them bolt.

With VCU, they are attractive to other conferences as well. They are a large state school, with brand recognition. They too were being considered with the NBE started. They are also one of the biggest state schools in the country that does not have football. With Old Dominion's successful start, and the push among many fans, this option could not be totally ruled out. Unlikely, but still possible.

SLU is a team, that even while down, is a team that is still being considered by the BE if they expand again. It's a big market city, fits with the smaller private schools, and have experienced a decent amount of success. Also with SLU, many there already are not a fan of the A10. They are the a big outlier to the A10 foot print. There some talk, although it never really turned into much more than talk, of joining the MVC. They would be in the center of the MVC foot print and the MVC tournament is played down the road in the Blues arena.

While I do not think any moves are imminent, or even likely in the next 5-10 years, there is always that possibility. It is much better for a school like UD to be proactive and lookout for itself than to be reactive.

Beatty Town Coach · #60 02-13-2017, 11:45 AM

A10, A10, A10...End of Story.

As for playing AAC opponents, the strength of conferences is cyclical. The A10 is down, but it's still about equal to the AAC; and the A10 will come back.

The A10 will have more good multiple bid years in the future. The AAC isn't exactly going to overwhelm the nation with their extensive number of multiple ncaa bids this year, and nor have they ever done that since their inception. This is the best year UC has had in twenty years. This is the best year in SMU history.

The UD scheduling model should be tweaked in the non-conference portion, not the conference itself. Keep dominating the A10, and up-grade the non-conference schedule from the pathetic sorry arse "Buy an Opponent " model. That thing has ran it's useless course.

shocka43 · #61 02-13-2017, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by CoffeeCan

If this the case, then why should any recruit go to Duke, or UNC, or Kansas if they could? I mean, stay at home and go to Eastern Illinois or something. After all, as you say "a certain conference doesn't guarantee anything"

Straw man...this wasn't even the point...

The fact of the matter is that UD moving to the BE...doesn't guarantee anything. Doesn't guarantee recruits, doesn't guarantee success, doesn't guarantee anything. Yes, does the exposure possibly give you the ability to recruit better and get former rivals into the Arena? Absolutely....but just as much as UD could possibly succeed, there is just an equal chance that they sit at the bottom and become the BE's Fordham.

And those recruits that choose those schools are choosing those schools. To compare the best of the best as to whether or not UD should make a lateral movement to another conference (AAC) is silly. If you are going to make a move, it has to be the right one. Not just because it is a new idea with fresh faces.

shocka43 · #62 02-13-2017, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by m21eagle45

While I do not think any moves are imminent, or even likely in the next 5-10 years, there is always that possibility. It is much better for a school like UD to be proactive and lookout for itself than to be reactive.

I absolutely agree that UD needs to be proactive, but not proactive in that they are out shopping for some new conference affiliation.

By being proactive, I assume by winning the A10...not just from time to time, but every year. Not just making the NCAA from time to time, but every year with advancement in the bracket. Not just having a nice facility, but making sure it meets or exceeds every facility at peer institutions as well as many of the big public schools...that is what I mean by proactive.

If UD continues to excel in the A10, doors will open. The schools that have made movement got opportunities because they deserved it. UD didn't deserve it no matter how much the fans thought it should have been us.

If by being proactive you mean UD being at the forefront of a realignment that meets UD's needs, then I am all for that. If many think that UD isn't even on the tip of the tongue when discussing the BE, and the likes of VCU and SLU have an advantage due to markets, or whatever the arguments are...then what is plan B? Take the BE out of the equation.

I would rather see the A10 be the destination conference for schools in the same boat. I would like to see the schools that fail to invest in their athletic programs and facilities to be shown the door and offer up the invite for schools that would see the A10 as enticing. I like that much better than I do UD leaving the known quantity of the A10 that has been pretty good to UD in recent years.

CoffeeCan · #63 02-13-2017, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by shocka43

Straw man...this wasn't even the point...

The fact of the matter is that UD moving to the BE...doesn't guarantee anything. Doesn't guarantee recruits, doesn't guarantee success, doesn't guarantee anything. Yes, does the exposure possibly give you the ability to recruit better and get former rivals into the Arena? Absolutely....but just as much as UD could possibly succeed, there is just an equal chance that they sit at the bottom and become the BE's Fordham.

And those recruits that choose those schools are choosing those schools. To compare the best of the best as to whether or not UD should make a lateral movement to another conference (AAC) is silly. If you are going to make a move, it has to be the right one. Not just because it is a new idea with fresh faces.

Maybe I was not clear, sorry.
I never said anything about the AAC. I am in favor of the BE only. I am not advocating a move to the AAC in any way. Big East > Atlantic 10 > AAC

See my earlier post:
"Let's say the NCAA gave UD the ability to design their own conference. What would it look like? Since we do not have football, the power that be would probably opt to go that direction. Geography, rivalries, prestige, TV contracts, religious affiliation are some factors they would choose from.

So, what would they do? I think it would look something a lot more like the BE than the A10."

And of course the players and coaches matter. My point was to say that anyone would take Duke or Kansas over Eastern Illinois as much as we would take the Big East over the A10.

This is NOT to say the A10 is bad or that we should go to the AAC. Change for change sake is not what we need.

Now, if a recruit is not offered Duke that does not mean that they cannot excel at Eastern Illinois. They should prove Duke wrong, just as we can prove the BE wrong for bypassing us. And if given the opportunity to transfer to Duke after two great years... or to join the BE after successful runs in the NCAA tourney.... you get the idea.

longtimefan · #64 02-13-2017, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by shocka43

The schools that have made movement got opportunities because they deserved it. UD didn't deserve it no matter how much the fans thought it should have been us.

I think we deserved it just as much as Creighton.

Medford · #65 02-13-2017, 01:26 PM

What does "deserved" have anything to do with it? Nobody "deserves" anything. Creighton had a sure fire NCAA team, a player of the year candidate and apparently the right connections at the upper levels of administration. Nobody deserves anything, but its easy to see the why, even at the time.

UACFlyer · #66 02-13-2017, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by longtimefan

I think we deserved it just as much as Creighton.

There were a few reasons why we were not included in the new BE.

In no special order: They didn't need us; Jesuit politics; proximity to X; so-so TV market,.....and, like it or not, admit it or not, UD does not enjoy a good academic reputation relative to the BE schools.

For a very long time UD was recognized as easy to get in and easy to get through. That's past history. But, reputation is a lagging indicator...lagging by many years. UD was transformed by Dan Curran. But it will take a long time (if ever) before UD is considered to be on a par with the likes of a Villanova, for example. And, the schools of the BE are elitist snobs....reputation matters a great deal to them.

What is UD to do? Simple (to say, not to do): Continue to improve across all fronts at a faster rate than the competition....academics, facilities and athletics. Those are the things we can control.

CT Flyer · #67 02-13-2017, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by UACFlyer

There were a few reasons why we were not included in the new BE.

In no special order: They didn't need us; Jesuit politics; proximity to X; so-so TV market,.....and, like it or not, admit it or not, UD does not enjoy a good academic reputation relative to the BE schools.

For a very long time UD was recognized as easy to get in and easy to get through. That's past history. But, reputation is a lagging indicator...lagging by many years. UD was transformed by Dan Curran. But it will take a long time (if ever) before UD is considered to be on a par with the likes of a Villanova, for example. And, the schools of the BE are elitist snobs....reputation matters a great deal to them.

What is UD to do? Simple (to say, not to do): Continue to improve across all fronts at a faster rate than the competition....academics, facilities and athletics. Those are the things we can control.

I would only agree with you that perhaps the East Coast perception is that UD is not a good academically but nationally that just isn't true. We are a much better academic school than a number of the schools in the BE, as a matter of fact than most of them.

UACFlyer · #68 02-13-2017, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by CT Flyer

I would only agree with you that perhaps the East Coast perception is that UD is not a good academically but nationally that just isn't true. We are a much better academic school than a number of the schools in the BE, as a matter of fact than most of them.

I said that reputation is a lagging indicator.....by that I mean lagging behind reality. UD's "peer assessment" score in the annual U.S. News rankings continues to be poor. That will change over time....decades, not years unfortunately.

CE80 · #69 02-13-2017, 02:06 PM

Academics is always smoke in the conference sports discussion. It's always about the $$s

xubrew · #70 02-13-2017, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by CoffeeCan

Let's say the NCAA gave UD the ability to design their own conference. What would it look like? Since we do not have football, the power that be would probably opt to go that direction. Geography, rivalries, prestige, TV contracts, religious affiliation are some factors they would choose from.

So, what would they do? I think it would look something a lot more like the BE than the A10.

The NCAA does give UD this ability. UD and four or five other A10 schools could join forces with Wichita State, Valpo, Belmont, or whoever and create a brand new slimmed down basketball centric league consisting of winning programs in good TV markets with centrally located (for the most part) alumni bases. There's no rule against it. If you could get 8-10 schools to agree to it then it could happen as early as next year. I'd bet the TV/media deal that a league like that would be able to get would be tons better than the one the A10 currently has.

CoffeeCan · #71 02-13-2017, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by xubrew

The NCAA does give UD this ability. UD and four or five other A10 schools could join forces with Wichita State, Valpo, Belmont, or whoever and create a brand new slimmed down basketball centric league consisting of winning programs in good TV markets with centrally located (for the most part) alumni bases. There's no rule against it. If you could get 8-10 schools to agree to it then it could happen as early as next year. I'd bet the TV/media deal that a league like that would be able to get would be tons better than the one the A10 currently has.

OK, I guess I have to draw it out a little more.

Let's say the NCAA gave UD a draw of any teams they wanted to form a conference....

jerseyflyer09 · #72 02-13-2017, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by UACFlyer

There were a few reasons why we were not included in the new BE.

In no special order: They didn't need us; Jesuit politics; proximity to X; so-so TV market,.....and, like it or not, admit it or not, UD does not enjoy a good academic reputation relative to the BE schools.

For a very long time UD was recognized as easy to get in and easy to get through. That's past history. But, reputation is a lagging indicator...lagging by many years. UD was transformed by Dan Curran. But it will take a long time (if ever) before UD is considered to be on a par with the likes of a Villanova, for example. And, the schools of the BE are elitist snobs....reputation matters a great deal to them.

What is UD to do? Simple (to say, not to do): Continue to improve across all fronts at a faster rate than the competition....academics, facilities and athletics. Those are the things we can control.

I think we were stale. We rested on the fact that we had a great history and great home court. We hadn't been a good program, we were mediocre in the 10 years leading up to the 'New' Big East. Even our logo was tired. Couple that with the fact that Xavier was 30 minutes south and outperformed us in all of those categories (and is Jesuit) looking back I don't think we stood much of a chance.

If it happened now, I think it's a different result. And hopefully if they do extend the invite to 2 teams soon, our current momentum will come into play.

Larymike · #73 02-13-2017, 03:30 PM

It is about institutional fit or peer institutions. The AAC does not meet that basic thought. There are TWO conferences that most closely meet the institutional fit or peer institutions model. Big East or Atlantic 10. Only one is a best fit for Dayton. Right now they are on the outside looking at the best fit.

xubrew · #74 02-13-2017, 03:33 PM

It's an interesting conversation, but I don't think the AAC has any real interest in Dayton, nor does UD have any real interest in the AAC. It's sort of like discussing whether or not Cincinnati should get an NBA team, when neither the NBA or Cincinnati really want a team there.

If the AAC adds anyone, I think it will be a school with FBS football or that plans to add FBS football.

ud2 · #75 02-16-2017, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by longtimefan

I think we deserved it just as much as Creighton.

Creighton had almost double the number of recent NCAAT appearances than UD when the BE decision was made. That was a big factor IMO.

hawkoooo · #76 02-16-2017, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by xubrew

The NCAA does give UD this ability. UD and four or five other A10 schools could join forces with Wichita State, Valpo, Belmont, or whoever and create a brand new slimmed down basketball centric league consisting of winning programs in good TV markets with centrally located (for the most part) alumni bases. There's no rule against it. If you could get 8-10 schools to agree to it then it could happen as early as next year. I'd bet the TV/media deal that a league like that would be able to get would be tons better than the one the A10 currently has.

Ok so Belmont, Murray State, Dayton, Valparaiso, Wichita State. Illinois State, Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois, Bradley, and Saint Louis.

Would that really be better than the current A10?

I think a much better plan would be to wait until the dust settles from the football side and take the leftovers there plus the cream of the crop from the A10, MVC, AAC etc.

ud2 · #77 02-16-2017, 01:47 PM

Unfortunately, since the 1980's until 2013, which was the last year before the New Big East formed, Creighton has clearly been a much better program than UD. There really is no comparison.

And it is not because the Missouri Valley Conference was a weaker conference than the A10, their rpi was still consistently much better than UD's.

Now, that is not to say that Jesuit politics did not help Creighton get into the NBE, maybe politics did play a role.

But, again, Creighton has clearly been a much better program.

New Big East's first season was 2013-2014

Creighton NCAAT appearances:

1941, 1962, 1964, 1974, 1975, 1978,

1981, 1989, 1991, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2012, 2013--12 appearances since the 1980's until 2013

Since 1993-1994, number of seasons with a final rpi of 51 to 100: 3

Since 1993-1994, number of seasons with a final rpi of 1 to 50: 11

Dayton NCAAT appearances:

1952, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1969, 1970, 1974,

1984, 1985, 1990, 2000, 2003, 2004, 2009--7 appearances since the 1980's until 2013

Since 1993-1994, number of seasons with a final rpi of 51 to 100: 7

Since 1993-1994, number of seasons with a final rpi of 1 to 50: 4