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  #1  
Old 04-06-2021, 02:55 PM
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For those of you defending our effort this year

For those of you who have said it's totally unfair to say UD just didn't play that hard, they gave everything they had this year: Watch the last 2 Baylor games.

Then watch UD replays from this year.

Then watch the last 2 Baylor games again.

I'm not sure I've ever seen a team just flat-out get after it on every possession, at every position, for nearly every second of the game. Arkansas under Nolan Richardson?? Some of Huggy's best teams (I hate the guy but his teams played HARD)? Baylor's centers were deep in a stance and shutting down some of the best guards in the NCAA last night. On switches, Baylor's guards were fighting harder than a really high quality big man from Gonzaga.

We got maybe 3-5 possessions per game this year with that kind of intensity. Baylor had it for all but maybe 3-5 possessions of the entire game. That's a team that just wanted to win worse than their opponent.

It doesn't take talent to play with that kind of effort. There are a few guys in particular who I think basically mailed it in this year. We definitely could have been an NCAA team if we had played 75% of the time with that kind of grit.
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  #2  
Old 04-06-2021, 04:28 PM
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Yes, that was a total as*-kicking last night, Gonzaga was never really even in the game, they got embarrassed. Total domination by Baylor.

Last edited by ud2; 04-06-2021 at 04:35 PM..
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Old 04-06-2021, 04:51 PM
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If not for their Covid pause, would have been interesting to see if Baylor could have/would have run the table. Lost their 2nd game back while still getting their legs under them, then again in their conference tournament. Baylor was fun to watch last night.
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Old 04-06-2021, 05:28 PM
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I agree with your statements, but Baylor did not look like the Final Four team for the entire year either. Even though we want our team to play with that intensity for ~30 games a year for 40 minutes, no team does that.
Also, I don't think that Baylor's effort means that that Gonzaga just didn't want the National Championship as much as Baylor did. I think that athleticism contributes the the ability to have that aggression and hustle. Baylor had the better athletes and that showed in the NC game.

I agree that some players did not appear to give full effort in every game this year, perhaps due to frustration, fatigue, injury, illness, or even disinterest.

This year is behind us now, let's hope that we have a vocal, respected court leader next year that can inspire the entire team to give everything they have.
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Old 04-06-2021, 05:30 PM
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Old 04-06-2021, 05:40 PM
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I don't disagree with the belief that out defensive effort was not there this year but I would imagine there are 375 teams that would have difficulty comparing to what we saw from Baylor this weekend. I believe it is clear we need to improve next year. I think the kids that Grant is bringing in will have a much higher motor than what we saw this year.
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  #7  
Old 04-06-2021, 05:50 PM
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Their effort was great, but 10-23 from the arc and 16-18 from the foul line is unrelated to effort and all about basketball talent. I read somewhere that Baylors PPP (points per possession) was the highest against a Zag team in 14 years (did not fact check).

Gonzaga suffered from Dayton-itis in this one. They shot 51% from the floor but had 18 fewer shots at the basket.
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Old 04-06-2021, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Their effort was great, but 10-23 from the arc and 16-18 from the foul line is unrelated to effort and all about basketball talent. I read somewhere that Baylors PPP (points per possession) was the highest against a Zag team in 14 years (did not fact check).

Gonzaga suffered from Dayton-itis in this one. They shot 51% from the floor but had 18 fewer shots at the basket.
Very difficult to win when the opponent is getting 18 more shots at the basket. That was the story of the Flyers season.
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Old 04-06-2021, 05:58 PM
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Just curious what everyone else's opinion or perspective was re: the Zags' effort last night? Was their loss effort related? If so, to what degree?
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Old 04-06-2021, 06:21 PM
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My impression was that the Zags had a slight talent advantage which offset massively by
1. their cold shooting night;
2. a hangover from their previous close win;
3. meeting a Baylor team that was physically dominating, something they don't see in their conference.

I understand each of their NCAAT victories was by double digits. Physicality doesn't take off nights, unlike shooting. This was one of those cases when you wonder why you didn't see this train-wreck coming at you.
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Old 04-06-2021, 06:52 PM
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Note my LACK of a comment on Baylor winning. Actually, I pointed out that talent is unrelated to effort (and yes Baylor has talent).

The entirety of my point is that anyone who says UD's players gave it their all this year, do not understand what giving your all means. THAT is what effort looks like, win or lose, from Baylor. Which is why I want people to look at our players on replay half-a**ing it down the court and on defense and realize: that's not effort. 1 out of 10 plays is not wanting it worse than your opponent, it's wanting to get this over with.

Yes, possessions will be taken off occasionally. It's a long season. I said "75% of the time" with that kind of effort makes us an NCAA team this year. 3 out of 4 possessions is too much to ask?
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  #12  
Old 04-06-2021, 07:44 PM
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It is much easier to play with high, high intensity when you have a deep bench and 3 centers that can foul out. Baylor had lots of fouls to give last night and used them.

It is a lot easier to play balls to the walls on every possession if you can get breaks and breathers now and then.

Last edited by SeasonTicketFan; 04-06-2021 at 08:10 PM..
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  #13  
Old 04-06-2021, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
It is much easier to play with high, high intensity when you have a deep bench and 3 centers that can foul out. Baylor had lots of fouls to give last night and used them.

It is a lot easier to play balls to the walls on every possession if you can breaks now and then.
How 'bout just the last 10 minutes of the second half then? Still too much to ask?
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Old 04-06-2021, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
It is much easier to play with high, high intensity when you have a deep bench and 3 centers that can foul out. Baylor had lots of fouls to give last night and used them.

It is a lot easier to play balls to the walls on every possession if you can breaks now and then.
Not disagreeing in the slightest. Depth is essential to being able to play 40-minute, balls-to-the-wall basketball.

Having said that, I will ask everyone who advocated for “banking” a scholarship or 2 each year: what are your thoughts on that subject now, after witnessing the benefits of depth on this year’s Baylor squad?
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Old 04-06-2021, 08:30 PM
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I watched about 10 Baylor games prior to the tournament...and they played that way ALL THE TIME. This was not one time effort. The reason they had so many more shots than Gonzaga is they out worked and out hustled them, period.
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Old 04-06-2021, 08:58 PM
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We allowed opponents to take almost 200 more shots than us. We were #328 out of 340 in offensive rebounding. Little wonder we finished 7th in a mediocre conference! Baylor would have beaten us senseless.
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Old 04-06-2021, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
Just curious what everyone else's opinion or perspective was re: the Zags' effort last night? Was their loss effort related? If so, to what degree?
Seemed like Gonzaga was down about 10 or 15 points at the start before they even knew what hit them. After that, they started to pick up the intensity, but by then they were already in a big hole. But even after that poor start, Baylor still outhustled them the rest of the way IMO.

I think Gonzaga expected to be able to partially half-ass their way thru that game and still win.

This is a one-time, winner-take-all game, this isn't the best of 7 NBA Finals where you can take a game off, there are no second chances.
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Old 04-06-2021, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
I watched about 10 Baylor games prior to the tournament...and they played that way ALL THE TIME. This was not one time effort. The reason they had so many more shots than Gonzaga is they out worked and out hustled them, period.
https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/sta...89239457103876

Watch this.
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Old 04-06-2021, 10:11 PM
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And we never won a jump ball even once for the entire year.

Shrug! There I said it. I got that off my chest.
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Old 04-06-2021, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
Not disagreeing in the slightest. Depth is essential to being able to play 40-minute, balls-to-the-wall basketball.

Having said that, I will ask everyone who advocated for “banking” a scholarship or 2 each year: what are your thoughts on that subject now, after witnessing the benefits of depth on this year’s Baylor squad?
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Baylor played 8 guys. So, I'll bet this changes nothing.
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Old 04-07-2021, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Baylor played 8 guys. So, I'll bet this changes nothing.
On the surface maybe, but UD played two players 38-40 minutes every game. There was not time to recharge for Ibi or Jalen and many teams pressured them both. Best teams played the double team effectively against Jalen. In reality, UD played almost an iron 5 with a couple of minutes substitution here and there.

We played a lot of freshman who lack upper body strength, especially inside. Opponents exploited that. Amziel looked like Larry Bird in his first game and once video appeared on him, he cam back to earth and played like a freshman.

UD played listless often this year. No doubt. There were lots of causes besides lacking heart and leadership. There were two players who weren't even on the roster in the beginning of the year. They looked tentative and uncertain at times and they looked mentally tired. and so on...

Clearly, they were unable to step up to the multiple challenges of this year. Many other teams did not as well. Including Gonzaga in the championship game....

Inconsistency and uninspiring play was across the board in college basketball this year.
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Old 04-07-2021, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
It is much easier to play with high, high intensity when you have a deep bench and 3 centers that can foul out. Baylor had lots of fouls to give last night and used them.

It is a lot easier to play balls to the walls on every possession if you can get breaks and breathers now and then.
We're talking EFFORT.

EFFORT should not be dependent on bench depth or even overall talent. There is no reason to not give effort. None.
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Old 04-07-2021, 11:49 AM
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If this had been Baylor vs Dayton for the National Championship, I wonder how many hand-checking, bumping, blocking and stop-being-a-meanie fouls the officiating team of Gazoo, Smitty and ud2 would have called on Baylor. Probably enough to foul-out their entire team by halftime.
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Old 04-07-2021, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
On the surface maybe, but UD played two players 38-40 minutes every game. There was not time to recharge for Ibi or Jalen and many teams pressured them both. Best teams played the double team effectively against Jalen. In reality, UD played almost an iron 5 with a couple of minutes substitution here and there.

If your premise is that the 2 scholarships left open would have otherwise gone to players good enough to take minutes from our starters, then, sure. Let's do that.

2 more players on scholarship sitting next to Frazier on the bench doesn't seem to add much. I'd prefer that the 11 guys on scholarship be good enough to do the job of playing 10 minutes in backup roles. If you're not good enough to play better than Ibi with no breaks, then you're just not good enough. Or Ibi isn't playing hard enough.

The point of having a scholarship or 2 open is that if a great player becomes available somehow, we never want to have to say no. If 11 guys isn't enough to form a starting 5 + 3 backups, then the problem isn't the open 2 scholarships.

Last edited by Gazoo; 04-07-2021 at 11:55 AM..
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Old 04-07-2021, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
On the surface maybe, but UD played two players 38-40 minutes every game. There was not time to recharge for Ibi or Jalen and many teams pressured them both. Best teams played the double team effectively against Jalen. In reality, UD played almost an iron 5 with a couple of minutes substitution here and there.

We played a lot of freshman who lack upper body strength, especially inside. Opponents exploited that. Amziel looked like Larry Bird in his first game and once video appeared on him, he cam back to earth and played like a freshman.

UD played listless often this year. No doubt. There were lots of causes besides lacking heart and leadership. There were two players who weren't even on the roster in the beginning of the year. They looked tentative and uncertain at times and they looked mentally tired. and so on...

Clearly, they were unable to step up to the multiple challenges of this year. Many other teams did not as well. Including Gonzaga in the championship game....

Inconsistency and uninspiring play was across the board in college basketball this year.
Personally, I can relate to most of the above. But I think for all the reasons below, that after the Fordham debacle it was apparent we were a bubble team---for the NIT, and I posted it.

Short on experience, running an Obi Toppin offense without an Obi, lacking reps with an assortment of players not familiar with each other. We knew we had holes but were hoping we could overcome them. Dang lucky that Mustapha could cover the loss of Chase. Sort of.
But still in all, we were a team that would win against strength and lose against weakness.

I don't buy the lack of effort discussion. We just expended way too much effort trying to overcome the many challenges and speed bumps with our roster.
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Old 04-07-2021, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
If this had been Baylor vs Dayton for the National Championship, I wonder how many hand-checking, bumping, blocking and stop-being-a-meanie fouls the officiating team of Gazoo, Smitty and ud2 would have called on Baylor. Probably enough to foul-out their entire team by halftime.
Didn't GU shoot at least 13 free throws before half? Can't remember. That's a lot isn't it?
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Old 04-07-2021, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
If this had been Baylor vs Dayton for the National Championship, I wonder how many hand-checking, bumping, blocking and stop-being-a-meanie fouls the officiating team of Gazoo, Smitty and ud2 would have called on Baylor. Probably enough to foul-out their entire team by halftime.
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...meId/401310865

11 fouls in 1st half on Baylor, 6 on GU

8 fouls in 2nd half on Baylor, 11 on GU

19 on Baylor for the game, 17 on GU...and I bet maybe some of the ones on GU in the 2nd half might have been to stop the clock.

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Old 04-07-2021, 01:55 PM
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GU did not foul to stop the clock. The game was over and I'm glad few didn't play that game.
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Old 04-07-2021, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
GU did not foul to stop the clock. The game was over and I'm glad few didn't play that game.
Elam'ers would have been ****ed if he did!
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Old 04-07-2021, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
If your premise is that the 2 scholarships left open would have otherwise gone to players good enough to take minutes from our starters, then, sure. Let's do that.

2 more players on scholarship sitting next to Frazier on the bench doesn't seem to add much. I'd prefer that the 11 guys on scholarship be good enough to do the job of playing 10 minutes in backup roles. If you're not good enough to play better than Ibi with no breaks, then you're just not good enough. Or Ibi isn't playing hard enough.

The point of having a scholarship or 2 open is that if a great player becomes available somehow, we never want to have to say no. If 11 guys isn't enough to form a starting 5 + 3 backups, then the problem isn't the open 2 scholarships.
I’d hope that AG is a good enough recruiter that he wouldn’t have struck out with the two additional scholarships. His recent recruiting proves this to be true.

I don’t know that banking one is good or bad but I just can’t see whoever would have filled it being equal to or worse than Frazier who couldn’t get off the bench.
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Old 04-07-2021, 04:17 PM
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The 2019-20 Dayton Flyers got after it like Baylor did in the Final Four.
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Old 04-07-2021, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by TX Flyer View Post
I’d hope that AG is a good enough recruiter that he wouldn’t have struck out with the two additional scholarships. His recent recruiting proves this to be true.

I don’t know that banking one is good or bad but I just can’t see whoever would have filled it being equal to or worse than Frazier who couldn’t get off the bench.
So you are totally fine that Frazier was as bad as Frazier, but you can't see any way another guy would have been as unproductive as Frazier.

Except...Frazier kinda proves that it's perfectly reasonable that it could happen?

The other thing that proves it is all the other guys equally not good enough that Ibi and Crutcher could sit for 3 minutes per game.
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Old 04-07-2021, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
If this had been Baylor vs Dayton for the National Championship, I wonder how many hand-checking, bumping, blocking and stop-being-a-meanie fouls the officiating team of Gazoo, Smitty and ud2 would have called on Baylor. Probably enough to foul-out their entire team by halftime.
With that, it shows that more aggressive teams Baylor/VCU also get by with much more...

If the game is permitted to be physical, teams like Baylor clean house...they know it, and every fan knows it...that not everything will be called (it honestly won't and can't) and teams will get beat because they don't know how to respond.
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Old 04-07-2021, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
With that, it shows that more aggressive teams Baylor/VCU also get by with much more...

If the game is permitted to be physical, teams like Baylor clean house...they know it, and every fan knows it...that not everything will be called (it honestly won't and can't) and teams will get beat because they don't know how to respond.

The old Huggy Bear philosophy.
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Old 04-08-2021, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
The old Huggy Bear philosophy.

Huggy used to teach his teams to foul 40+ times a game because there's no way the refs will call more than 20 of them. There's a natural upper limit. rollo will now inform us that refs are superhuman and have no biases, so if Huggy's team fouled 40+ times the refs would call every one of them, so clearly they didn't.

rollo, watching the Baylor game, there were at least 5 different plays where I said out loud "I'm so glad the ref swallowed the whistle on that because there's just no reason to call a foul." A couple were loose balls where no one had possession or clear position. I'm 100% in favor of allowing far more contact, in particular under the basket. When the offensive player jumps into the defensive player I say swallow the whistle basically every time; that was your choice, you could have gone straight up and you chose to create contact. But when a guy is catching a rebound and someone rips your arm away you either call it, or, the next time down that guy is going to make sure he gets the rebound by clearing out space and hurting someone. That has to be kept under control.
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Old 04-08-2021, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Huggy used to teach his teams to foul 40+ times a game because there's no way the refs will call more than 20 of them. There's a natural upper limit. rollo will now inform us that refs are superhuman and have no biases, so if Huggy's team fouled 40+ times the refs would call every one of them, so clearly they didn't.

rollo, watching the Baylor game, there were at least 5 different plays where I said out loud "I'm so glad the ref swallowed the whistle on that because there's just no reason to call a foul." A couple were loose balls where no one had possession or clear position. I'm 100% in favor of allowing far more contact, in particular under the basket. When the offensive player jumps into the defensive player I say swallow the whistle basically every time; that was your choice, you could have gone straight up and you chose to create contact. But when a guy is catching a rebound and someone rips your arm away you either call it, or, the next time down that guy is going to make sure he gets the rebound by clearing out space and hurting someone. That has to be kept under control.
James Breeding would call all forty fouls plus throw in four or five technicals for good measure.

Jeffrey Anderson would call all forty fouls plus throw in about ten other phantom fouls.
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Old 04-08-2021, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
So you are totally fine that Frazier was as bad as Frazier, but you can't see any way another guy would have been as unproductive as Frazier.

Except...Frazier kinda proves that it's perfectly reasonable that it could happen?

The other thing that proves it is all the other guys equally not good enough that Ibi and Crutcher could sit for 3 minutes per game.
For many, anyone on the team is beyond reproach. How dare anyone criticize a team member irrespective of how terrible they actually are. Take Sissoku- could hardly have played worse yet many still see him as a future star.. all he needs is to learn how to actually shoot the ball and poof... he’s the next Devin Oliver!
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Old 04-08-2021, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Huggy used to teach his teams to foul 40+ times a game because there's no way the refs will call more than 20 of them. There's a natural upper limit. rollo will now inform us that refs are superhuman and have no biases, so if Huggy's team fouled 40+ times the refs would call every one of them, so clearly they didn't.

rollo, watching the Baylor game, there were at least 5 different plays where I said out loud "I'm so glad the ref swallowed the whistle on that because there's just no reason to call a foul." A couple were loose balls where no one had possession or clear position. I'm 100% in favor of allowing far more contact, in particular under the basket. When the offensive player jumps into the defensive player I say swallow the whistle basically every time; that was your choice, you could have gone straight up and you chose to create contact. But when a guy is catching a rebound and someone rips your arm away you either call it, or, the next time down that guy is going to make sure he gets the rebound by clearing out space and hurting someone. That has to be kept under control.
Did you get whiplash typing this?? Because there is no chance in hell that you'd be this objective if UD was on the receiving end of that Baylor defense. None.

Admit it! C'mon man...you're a homer...an arm chair QB and a reffing hack...just admit it!
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Old 04-08-2021, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Did you get whiplash typing this?? Because there is no chance in hell that you'd be this objective if UD was on the receiving end of that Baylor defense. None.

Admit it! C'mon man...you're a homer...an arm chair QB and a reffing hack...just admit it!
Not buying any of this rollo, Baylor was just a much better team. Stunned that you are criticizing the refs, I thought in your world, refs never, ever make mistakes and always call a perfect game.
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Old 04-08-2021, 12:22 PM
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The refs that called the game were ranked #1, #3, and #33 by Kenpom...2 of the 3 were about the best in the game...
these guys weren't amateurs.
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Old 04-08-2021, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Not buying any of this rollo, Baylor was just a much better team. Stunned that you are criticizing the refs, I thought in your world, refs never, ever make mistakes and always call a perfect game.
I never criticized the refs! Ever! I poked a little fun at Gazoo...deservedly.
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Old 04-08-2021, 12:29 PM
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The truth finally comes out!

Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
The refs that called the game were ranked #1, #3, and #33 by Kenpom...2 of the 3 were about the best in the game...
these guys weren't amateurs.
It's funny and ironic that you made the 'amateurs' comment...implying and admitting that those who are amateurs don't have a clue. cough...cough...
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Old 04-08-2021, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I never criticized the refs! Ever! I poke a little fun at Gazoo...deservedly.
Post #23?

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=23
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Old 04-08-2021, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
It's funny and ironic that you made the 'amateurs' comment...implying and admitting that those who are amateurs don't have a clue. cough...cough...
No, just saying that some of the lesser-ranked refs might be looked at by some as amateurs in comparison to the higher-ranked refs.
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Old 04-08-2021, 12:42 PM
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Is it 4/20 already????

Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Post #23?

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=23
Ummmm...I still don't see where I criticized anyone except the imagined and amateur reffing crew of Gazoo, Smitty and you in a fantasy National Championship game including UD.
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Old 04-08-2021, 12:45 PM
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Rollo, what about post #36? Not everyone agrees with your view.

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=36
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Old 04-08-2021, 12:54 PM
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*except at the S'boro palatial estate...

Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Rollo, what about post #36? Not everyone agrees with your view.

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=36
Amateurs, amateurs EVERYWHERE*!

Even you agree that amateurs suck...so you pretty much answered your own question.
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Old 04-08-2021, 03:43 PM
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The effort, the hustle, the depth, the rebounding, the defense....Gazoo is right. It wasn't there this year.

Now compare this year's roster with injuries, COVID, "medical" withdrawals, lack of summer practice, etc. with next year's. This year, the staff was lucky if they went into a game seven deep.

Next year, no excuses. I expect at least ten guys playing serious minutes. I expect hustle, and preparation. I want MAJOR effort and players pulled when they don't exhibit it. They're young (only three guys in their third+ season, so I expect a lot of mistakes. But I expect those to be countered with effort.

If effort doesn't happen next year we're going to have to have a serious discussion about the future. But I am not remotely worried about that.
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Old 04-08-2021, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Did you get whiplash typing this?? Because there is no chance in hell that you'd be this objective if UD was on the receiving end of that Baylor defense. None.

Admit it! C'mon man...you're a homer...an arm chair QB and a reffing hack...just admit it!
rollo, your bias to defend the refs at all costs clouds your judgement about when someone has a legitimate complaint that a ref missed a call.

Your comment about "amateurs" being your personal proof statement that everyone else is an amateur ref, well, the fact that you admitted surprise about my comments should likewise be a proof statement about your level of bias. If you were actually listening, you would know that I'm not in favor of the refs blowing the whistle on every bit of contact.

Just take the criticism.
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Old 04-08-2021, 04:10 PM
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I'll take an amateur's criticism as soon as the amateur takes a reffing class

Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post

Just take the criticism.
I love when amateurs criticize professionals. They're always so open-minded, agreeable and just a joy to discuss matters of which they know nothing.

How's that??!
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Old 04-08-2021, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by maddog07 View Post
For many, anyone on the team is beyond reproach. How dare anyone criticize a team member irrespective of how terrible they actually are. Take Sissoku- could hardly have played worse yet many still see him as a future star.. all he needs is to learn how to actually shoot the ball and poof... he’s the next Devin Oliver!
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right now, we have our popcorn and
watching the back and forth... best
thing you can do is pick another time
to jump in, ummkay?

okay, on with the exchange
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Old 04-08-2021, 05:06 PM
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Or we could just keep threads on-topic
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Old 04-08-2021, 05:09 PM
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Rollo, this is exhausting. I was cheering hard for Gonzaga, yet I clearly acknowledge that Baylor won fair and square, and the refs had nothing to do with the outcome, I am having trouble understanding some of your arguments, you are arguing from both sides at times. As Gazoo said, sometimes I think you defend the refs at all costs, even though I am clearly stating this time that the refs did a good job.

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Old 04-08-2021, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
So you are totally fine that Frazier was as bad as Frazier, but you can't see any way another guy would have been as unproductive as Frazier.

Except...Frazier kinda proves that it's perfectly reasonable that it could happen?

The other thing that proves it is all the other guys equally not good enough that Ibi and Crutcher could sit for 3 minutes per game.
I am not fine that Frazier was apparently that bad. I also don’t think AG would have recruited two more people as bad or worse. If AG has proved anything it’s that he can get top recruits and transfers. I think it’s more than acceptable to say that sometimes he will swing and miss as he did with frazier.
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Old 04-08-2021, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I love when amateurs criticize professionals. They're always so open-minded, agreeable and just a joy to discuss matters of which they know nothing.

How's that??!
It's unfair and unreasonable to suggest that an amateur knows NOTHING and both ignorant and arrogant to suggest that a professional knows EVERYTHING.

And this is a broader reaching statement, not just re: referees, coaching, etc.
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  #56  
Old 04-09-2021, 06:05 AM
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An amateur who has certain hobbies and makes an effort to learn about that craft can have an opinion. But that's not the situation here where we have so-called amateurs - who have put no effort into learning or applying rules - criticizing experts...and insisting that the experts are wrong.

My M-I-L recently passed away...her son, an English major...insisted on being an amateur Oncologist who questioned darn near every diagnosis the 30+ year Medical Oncologist made...he'd read every report and throw (bad) advice around 24/7/365...and get p*ssed when everyone - for obvious reasons - ignored his expertise. Thank Rollo he doesn't know squat about basketball...and admits it. Which makes him (barely) tolerable. Too bad others don't follow his lead.
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Old 04-09-2021, 07:16 AM
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Interesting discussion about amateurs and professionals, especially considering that this board consists of a series of amateur coaches who put out polls and vote every game on the effort and performance of players and coaches.
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Old 04-09-2021, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
Interesting discussion about amateurs and professionals, especially considering that this board consists of a series of amateur coaches who put out polls and vote every game on the effort and performance of players and coaches.
Since I've been paid to officiate and be an assistant HS coach, and be certified by the OHSAA, I am officially considered a professional...so you can expect more polls. Professional polls.

You're welcome.
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Old 04-09-2021, 08:41 AM
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Talking

Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Since I've been paid to officiate and be an assistant HS coach, and be certified by the OHSAA, I am officially considered a professional...so you can expect more polls. Professional polls.

You're welcome.
King Rollo, a quick b**ch slap may be appropriate for the naysayers!
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Old 04-09-2021, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I love when amateurs criticize professionals. They're always so open-minded, agreeable and just a joy to discuss matters of which they know nothing.

How's that??!
It's proof that you have a giant blind spot.

This is not the criticism you need to accept. The criticism you need to accept is unrelated to amateur referees, the criticism you need to accept is that your biases cause you to have blind spots, as evidenced by the fact that you were (by your own admission) "surprised" that I would have thought the level of contact was fully appropriate in the national championship game.

If you were listening, you would not have been surprised. You've already got your mind made up, and force everything through that lens.
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Old 04-09-2021, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by TX Flyer View Post
I am not fine that Frazier was apparently that bad. I also don’t think AG would have recruited two more people as bad or worse. If AG has proved anything it’s that he can get top recruits and transfers. I think it’s more than acceptable to say that sometimes he will swing and miss as he did with frazier.
You're confident AG would not have recruited 2 more people as bad or worse. Why?

He recruited Frazier, he recruited Sissoko, and neither were highly productive ("yet" for Sissoko).

If AG was already at the point of recruiting the marginal player, the one he was crossing his fingers about, then the one he would have recruited AFTER that would have been better? It seems unreasonable to think that AG turned away talent good enough to take away minutes from Crutcher "just to keep a scholarship open."

It seems much more likely that he reached the bottom of the barrel and decided anyone after that was just going to sit on the bench, so he'd rather not tie up the scholarship. Doesn't it?
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Old 04-09-2021, 11:54 AM
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how has he recruited this year?
every player is hit and miss

if we are going go discuss CAG's
recruiting, then we need to include
the greatest recruiting class in the
history of this school it seems to me..

I'm sorry when any player doesn't work
out, and no coach is immune from it..

what am I missing?
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  #63  
Old 04-09-2021, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
It's proof that you have a giant blind spot.

This is not the criticism you need to accept. The criticism you need to accept is unrelated to amateur referees, the criticism you need to accept is that your biases cause you to have blind spots, as evidenced by the fact that you were (by your own admission) "surprised" that I would have thought the level of contact was fully appropriate in the national championship game.

If you were listening, you would not have been surprised. You've already got your mind made up, and force everything through that lens.
Despite having no formal or informal education in psychology, medicine or mental illness, it is my opinion that you're certifiably crazy.

And I must be right because - like so many others with UD bias' and no clue what they're talking about - experience, knowledge, perspective and training are worthless.

Now, if you'll forgive me, I must be off. Amongst others, I gotta call my Financial advisor, family Lawyer, Oncologist, Ch. 9 meteorologist, Reds Manager David Bell and the NCAA Rules Interpretation Committee to inform them of their failures, incompetencies and ignorance surrounding everything I know nothing about but still have an opinion on.

King Rollo the Know-it-All...OUT
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Old 04-09-2021, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
You're confident AG would not have recruited 2 more people as bad or worse. Why?

He recruited Frazier, he recruited Sissoko, and neither were highly productive ("yet" for Sissoko).

If AG was already at the point of recruiting the marginal player, the one he was crossing his fingers about, then the one he would have recruited AFTER that would have been better? It seems unreasonable to think that AG turned away talent good enough to take away minutes from Crutcher "just to keep a scholarship open."

It seems much more likely that he reached the bottom of the barrel and decided anyone after that was just going to sit on the bench, so he'd rather not tie up the scholarship. Doesn't it?
It is possible, yes. But I can’t say for certain and that’s why we’re here on the message board while he is out on the recruiting trail
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Old 04-09-2021, 02:21 PM
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If the refs never make a mistake, as rollo always argues, then there would be no such thing as a makeup call, but IMO makeup calls do exist. If the refs really were perfect, there would no such thing as a makeup call. IMO, by and large, the refs get it right, but from time to time they do make mistakes. To argue otherwise IMO is ridiculous. Nobody is perfect.

https://grantland.com/the-triangle/m...ees-paul-gift/:


The charges, travels, illegal screens, and selective three-second enforcement are the calls that inspire wild-eyed anger and Zapruder-style film breakdowns. Gift found they also lead to a stunning uptick in the same calls against the other team, often in the very next possession. If the refs hit Team A with an offensive foul, traveling call, or three-second violation on one possession, the likelihood of their opponents getting dinged with the same call on the next possession jumps by between 16 percent and 66 percent depending on the type of call in question, Gift’s study found.

The makeup effect persists, though in gradually diminishing power, for as long as a half-dozen possessions after the original call, Gift says.

There are caveats, of course. Public play-by-play data doesn’t always distinguish between types of offensive fouls, so there was no way in many cases for Gift to determine whether the original call was a charge, an illegal screen, a push-off, or something else. On the whole, referees were 21 percent more likely than usual to call an offensive foul on one team on the possession immediately following an offensive call on the other team, the study found.

The effect was most pronounced for three-second violations, which were 66 percent more likely in the possession after officials called one on the other team.

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  #66  
Old 04-09-2021, 02:26 PM
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Only a few of us has had Rollo as an official.

Professional and takes it seriously no matter the age.

I would like to have two of him out there every game versus some of the dingleberries that work games for the money not not to ensure the integrity of the game.
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Old 04-09-2021, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
Only a few of us has had Rollo as an official.

Professional and takes it seriously no matter the age.

I would like to have two of him out there every game versus some of the dingleberries that work games for the money not not to ensure the integrity of the game.
I don't think anyone is questioning Prince Rollo's adequacies as an official. The issue is that he would defend those "dingleberries" to the death if anyone questioned their calls or integrity.
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Old 04-09-2021, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TX Flyer View Post
It is possible, yes. But I can’t say for certain and that’s why we’re here on the message board while he is out on the recruiting trail
And as I said, if AG, out on the recruiting trail, saw a player he thought could take minutes from Crutcher, he would have used the scholarship. Lacking such a player, he left it open in case someone truly noteworthy comes available. So, no I don't question his choice to leave a scholarship or even 2 open.
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Old 04-09-2021, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
And as I said, if AG, out on the recruiting trail, saw a player he thought could take minutes from Crutcher, he would have used the scholarship. Lacking such a player, he left it open in case someone truly noteworthy comes available. So, no I don't question his choice to leave a scholarship or even 2 open.
I feel as if you’re trying to argue something I never said. But hopefully you got the answer you wanted.
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Old 04-09-2021, 07:52 PM
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...*in low level youth basketball with rookie officials....

Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
If the refs never make a mistake, as rollo always argues, then there would be no such thing as a makeup call, but IMO makeup calls do exist.
Your opinion is correct*...

...but everywhere else, make-up calls are a death sentence if you want to move up. But I don't expect you to understand the realities of officiating.
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Old 04-09-2021, 08:12 PM
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Check please....
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Old 04-09-2021, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Your opinion is correct*...

...but everywhere else, make-up calls are a death sentence if you want to move up. But I don't expect you to understand the realities of officiating.
Did you read my link? They were talking about NBA refs making makeup calls. Statistical evidence backing it up too.

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Old 04-09-2021, 11:06 PM
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https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2...CbN/story.html:

Once every minute and 44 seconds. That is, on average, how often NBA officials are getting calls wrong or missing calls at the end of close games, a Globe analysis found. But they are still correct 86 percent of the time in the final two minutes of close games.



Rollo, NBA refs only get 86% of calls right in the last 2 minutes of games. I thought all refs were perfect?

Last edited by ud2; 04-09-2021 at 11:13 PM..
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Old 04-10-2021, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Did you read my link? They were talking about NBA refs making makeup calls. Statistical evidence backing it up too.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
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  #75  
Old 04-10-2021, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
Having said that, I will ask everyone who advocated for “banking” a scholarship or 2 each year: what are your thoughts on that subject now, after witnessing the benefits of depth on this year’s Baylor squad?
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Originally Posted by TX Flyer View Post
I don’t know that banking one is good or bad but I just can’t see whoever would have filled it being equal to or worse than Frazier who couldn’t get off the bench.
Originally Posted by TX Flyer View Post
I feel as if you’re trying to argue something I never said. But hopefully you got the answer you wanted.

Yes. Banking one or 2 is AG's decision and seems to be a good one (but up to him), regardless of what Baylor does.
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Old 04-10-2021, 10:50 PM
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Exactly what i said. I still don’t know if it’s good or bad. If he would have filled it then I still think it wouldn’t have been any worse than Frazier. He didn’t fill it so we’ll never know.

Not sure why that is wrong in your opinion but I’m sure you’ll let me know.
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Old 04-11-2021, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by TX Flyer View Post
Exactly what i said. I still don’t know if it’s good or bad. If he would have filled it then I still think it wouldn’t have been any worse than Frazier. He didn’t fill it so we’ll never know.

Not sure why that is wrong in your opinion but I’m sure you’ll let me know.
You said you don't know if any marginal recruit would be better or worse than Frazier, and then you said we need to trust AG to know if any marginal recruit would be better or worse than Frazier.

So, yes.
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Old 04-12-2021, 07:27 AM
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*or tea leaves.

Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Did you read my link? They were talking about NBA refs making makeup calls. Statistical evidence backing it up too.
Statistical evidence, huh? Wow.

Let me know what the ouiji board* meta-analysis says and I'll bend the knee. But only if it's limited to games on Tuesdays...when there's a full moon...during a monsoon...in the Sahara.
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Old 04-12-2021, 10:20 AM
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I didn't watch enough games to comment per effort over the year. The games I did watch, I was very frustrated watching their passing. Lot's of telegraphing and watching.
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Old 04-12-2021, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Statistical evidence, huh? Wow.

Let me know what the ouiji board* meta-analysis says and I'll bend the knee. But only if it's limited to games on Tuesdays...when there's a full moon...during a monsoon...in the Sahara.
What about post #73? I bet you will tell me that the people at the Boston Globe are idiots.
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Old 04-12-2021, 11:54 AM
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*and since I've done it, I'm right.

Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
What about post #73? I bet you will tell me that the people at the Boston Globe are idiots.
Give it up ud2...we've both made our points*.
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Old 04-12-2021, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Give it up ud2...we've both made our points*.
Nice dodge, you sound like Biden, ignore the question and give a totally unrelated answer.
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  #83  
Old 04-12-2021, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Canonball View Post
I didn't watch enough games to comment per effort over the year. The games I did watch, I was very frustrated watching their passing. Lot's of telegraphing and watching.
Just checked the stats for this year and found some interesting numbers:
-Flyers averaged 51.7 shots taken per game which was #342 out of 347 teams.
-averaged 33 rebounds per game, #311 in nation.
-averaged 6.9 off rebounds per game, #329.
-averaged 69.8 points per game, #237.
-FG percentage was .476, #29.

We were outshot by 7 shots per game due to generally getting destroyed on the boards and averaging a couple more TO’s per game than our opponent. Fortunately we shot a good percentage from the field which allowed us to win some games even while being out rebounded.
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  #84  
Old 04-12-2021, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TA111 View Post
Just checked the stats for this year and found some interesting numbers:
-Flyers averaged 51.7 shots taken per game which was #342 out of 347 teams.
-averaged 33 rebounds per game, #311 in nation.
-averaged 6.9 off rebounds per game, #329.
-averaged 69.8 points per game, #237.
-FG percentage was .476, #29.

We were outshot by 7 shots per game due to generally getting destroyed on the boards and averaging a couple more TO’s per game than our opponent. Fortunately we shot a good percentage from the field which allowed us to win some games even while being out rebounded.
I still say the worst part of our game was the passing and the defense in transition. The passing is what caused us to have such few shots. The transistion defense was so bad that CAG had our players immediately retreat when a shot was put up forfeiting any Offensive rebound opportunities. 3rd, and this was a big one, was our defensive rebounding. This is why our FG percentage wasn't that big of an advantage because we would let our opponents have multiple tries to make a shot per possession.

Again while our D-Rebounding was atrocious, I'm not that concerned about it. We lost our 3 top rebounders from a year ago and it just isn't that surprising and I'm sure that will improve from here on forward.
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  #85  
Old 04-12-2021, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
You said you don't know if any marginal recruit would be better or worse than Frazier, and then you said we need to trust AG to know if any marginal recruit would be better or worse than Frazier.

So, yes.
Since you’re now adding words to my comments I’m done replying after this. I never said AG was recruiting marginal recruits. You’re arguing the same thing I’m Saying in different words but adding additional context to change what I said.
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