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  #1  
Old 06-21-2021, 12:17 PM
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Supreme Court Sides with Players over NCAA

In a unanimous ruling, the Supreme Court rules against the NCAA.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinion...0-512_gfbh.pdf

The court only considered NCAA limits on education-related benefits. A lower court found the restrictions illegal and the NCAA appealed to the Supreme Court, where they lost. The ruling seems to hint that if the players pushed to abolish other restrictions they may be successful there as well, but those questions were not on the table.

Last edited by FlyingArrow; 06-21-2021 at 12:22 PM..
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Old 06-21-2021, 12:57 PM
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This is step one. The consequence will be interesting.

Players definitely will push for payment. If the NCAA can comprehend Justice Kavanaugh's opinion (should be a no brainer, but this is the NCAA), their next move is to put together a system for (lack of better terms) sharing the revenue. Then the debate starts on higher revenue programs ability to pay more. I don't see the SEC schools agreeing to pay the same as the A-10, due to the TV revenue they pull in. So we are back to the have's and have not's.

Finally, once this all falls into place for a hot debate, it will be interesting to see if past athlete's claim that they were used to grow their respective sport, and deserve some form of one time payment.

This one is going to be fun to watch how the schools and conferences react in either working with or apart from the NCAA.

Last edited by Jeff; 06-21-2021 at 08:28 PM..
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Old 06-21-2021, 01:39 PM
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This will only push the divide between the haves and have nots. It is not good for UD and not good for competition.
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Old 06-21-2021, 01:53 PM
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I would think, if the players become paid "employees", then their educations would become taxable benefits.
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Old 06-21-2021, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
I would think, if the players become paid "employees", then their educations would become taxable benefits.
True, unless the Fed gives an exemption.
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Old 06-21-2021, 03:14 PM
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The ramifications of this could be monstrous. I could see a time in the not too distant future where college sports has a top tier made up of primarily large state schools and the rest goes to a division three level. MAC football…gone. A10 teams playing for a basketball championship against like schools…not against Power 5 schools. Most non revenue sports moving to club status.
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Old 06-21-2021, 08:50 PM
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Not sure this will affect MAC football. They already get killed when recruiting against the big boys. Basketball is what will be hit harder. Going to be tough for UD to get top 100 unless they can offer the same benefits the big boys can offer. Do you need a Porshe to get to class?
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Old 06-22-2021, 02:58 AM
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I have not followed closely, but Ive digested the possible scenarios. I can see both sides of the equation. My question is if the players will control NIL, will they be treated like all other "workers" that control their NIL as well? If they are no longer considered a student and treated more like an employee, wont the rules change quite a bit as to how you can treat them? With employers you get a lot more leeway in some areas and less in others.

This is probably still a ways down the line but consider this scenario.

Recruit A is a top level prospect and is being recruited by Duke. Duke is a Nike school. Nike calls up Duke and says, "listen you need to get this kid. If you sign him we can guarantee him $500,000 a year in endorsements. Make sure you tell him that in your recruiting sales pitch. If this kid is as good as we think he is, he will make Duke and Nike a fortune and we'll make him rich too."

Duke tells Recruit A, "Listen we are real tight with Nike....you sign with Duke and we can all but guarantee you'll make $500,000 a year. You can buy that house for your mom. Send your little brother to music school. Buy yourself a car and a Rolex. Nobody else can come close to this deal."

Recruit A decides to sign with Duke. About halfway through the year the coach detects an attitude with the player. He's playing well but coach has his reasons to sit him. Nike calls up the Duke coaching staff and says, "hey...our star endorsement is not on the court. You are costing us a fortune. Either he gets on the court and plays a 35 minutes in the next game or this is the last NIL endorsement we'll ever throw one of your recruits -- we'll send all our business to Chapel Hill and see if you can compete against our $500,000 offers with nothing but the ivy on your buildings. He's no good to us sitting on the pine."

Coach plays him the next game. But all of a sudden the kid starts playing terrible. The funk doesn't stop and its mid-season. Coach tells the kid, "I keep putting you on the court so you don't get the rug pulled from Nike and your mom's house doesn't get taken away, but unless you give me 20 and 10 next game, I'm firing you from the team."

Is the kid going to be legally considered an employee of Nike? Or of Duke? Or Both? And if so, do the rules of employment apply like they do for you and I where you can get fired for any reason ("lack of performance" being the most common)? Where does the line in the sand get drawn and how does the NCAA prevent the moral hazard of cash and endorsements from influencing not just recruiting but the actual operation of a basketball program? How do they remove the pressure upon the coach to play his "expensive" guys or else get an earful after every game from the Nikes and Gatorades of the world?

At least in the NBA everybody is an employee. You have contracts but you can get traded or let go at the drop of a hat -- coach no longer likes you, poor performance, the coach traded for someone better. There's no ambiguity. You are getting paid by the front office and your endorsement deals to put the round thing in the hoop. When you stop doing that, you're financial livelihood and job prospects are no longer guaranteed. You might be weedwhacking apartment complexes before you know it.

I think there needs to be strong language to prevent this potentially positive step forward from losing sensibility and turning CBB into nothing but a glorified NBA D-League masquerading as an educational opportunity.

Im not exactly sure what the right answers are and where middle ground makes sense. But I see this revelation driving an even bigger wedge between the haves- and have-nots in CBB. Imagine how much Dana Altman is going to be able to promise every Oregon recruit moving forward...he could all but guarantee a house for mom for every kid that signs. Just use Phil Knight/Nike as the pass-through to wash the money under "NIL". What's the Oregon St coach gonna be able to offer to counter that? A $750 spokesperson deal for Chop Suey Paradise in downtown Corvallis? Not as much as Oregon if Phil has any say in it.
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  #9  
Old 06-22-2021, 08:40 AM
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Can of Worms. What crawls out is going to be a mess and it looks to me like the only prayer is if Congress gets involved and sets some boundaries/laws. And when was the last time Congress passed a law that wasn’t a mess? That’s another can of worms...that gets challenged in court...right where we are today. I’m officially coining the phrase “ Circular Can of Worms”.
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Old 06-22-2021, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
Most non revenue sports moving to club status.
How much $ would that save?
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Old 06-22-2021, 10:26 AM
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This situation of payment to play sports has been around for a long time. Many years ago, baseball was king. Companies recruited top athletes to play on their company baseball team. They offered the athlete a job at the company which was dependent upon how well they played on the field not how well they performed on their job. The company baseball leagues were suppose to be a friendly game between company’s with only employees of the company playing in the games. These company leagues soon transformed into something else. Eventually, gambling entered the scene and these company adversarial leagues had to be disbanded.
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Old 06-22-2021, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
I have not followed closely, but Ive digested the possible scenarios. I can see both sides of the equation. My question is if the players will control NIL, will they be treated like all other "workers" that control their NIL as well? If they are no longer considered a student and treated more like an employee, wont the rules change quite a bit as to how you can treat them? With employers you get a lot more leeway in some areas and less in others.

This is probably still a ways down the line but consider this scenario.

Recruit A is a top level prospect and is being recruited by Duke. Duke is a Nike school. Nike calls up Duke and says, "listen you need to get this kid. If you sign him we can guarantee him $500,000 a year in endorsements. Make sure you tell him that in your recruiting sales pitch. If this kid is as good as we think he is, he will make Duke and Nike a fortune and we'll make him rich too."

Duke tells Recruit A, "Listen we are real tight with Nike....you sign with Duke and we can all but guarantee you'll make $500,000 a year. You can buy that house for your mom. Send your little brother to music school. Buy yourself a car and a Rolex. Nobody else can come close to this deal."

Recruit A decides to sign with Duke. About halfway through the year the coach detects an attitude with the player. He's playing well but coach has his reasons to sit him. Nike calls up the Duke coaching staff and says, "hey...our star endorsement is not on the court. You are costing us a fortune. Either he gets on the court and plays a 35 minutes in the next game or this is the last NIL endorsement we'll ever throw one of your recruits -- we'll send all our business to Chapel Hill and see if you can compete against our $500,000 offers with nothing but the ivy on your buildings. He's no good to us sitting on the pine."

Coach plays him the next game. But all of a sudden the kid starts playing terrible. The funk doesn't stop and its mid-season. Coach tells the kid, "I keep putting you on the court so you don't get the rug pulled from Nike and your mom's house doesn't get taken away, but unless you give me 20 and 10 next game, I'm firing you from the team."

Is the kid going to be legally considered an employee of Nike? Or of Duke? Or Both? And if so, do the rules of employment apply like they do for you and I where you can get fired for any reason ("lack of performance" being the most common)? Where does the line in the sand get drawn and how does the NCAA prevent the moral hazard of cash and endorsements from influencing not just recruiting but the actual operation of a basketball program? How do they remove the pressure upon the coach to play his "expensive" guys or else get an earful after every game from the Nikes and Gatorades of the world?

At least in the NBA everybody is an employee. You have contracts but you can get traded or let go at the drop of a hat -- coach no longer likes you, poor performance, the coach traded for someone better. There's no ambiguity. You are getting paid by the front office and your endorsement deals to put the round thing in the hoop. When you stop doing that, you're financial livelihood and job prospects are no longer guaranteed. You might be weedwhacking apartment complexes before you know it.

I think there needs to be strong language to prevent this potentially positive step forward from losing sensibility and turning CBB into nothing but a glorified NBA D-League masquerading as an educational opportunity.

Im not exactly sure what the right answers are and where middle ground makes sense. But I see this revelation driving an even bigger wedge between the haves- and have-nots in CBB. Imagine how much Dana Altman is going to be able to promise every Oregon recruit moving forward...he could all but guarantee a house for mom for every kid that signs. Just use Phil Knight/Nike as the pass-through to wash the money under "NIL". What's the Oregon St coach gonna be able to offer to counter that? A $750 spokesperson deal for Chop Suey Paradise in downtown Corvallis? Not as much as Oregon if Phil has any say in it.

Chris, the situation you describe is covered by most conflict of interest policies at nearly every company. For the reason you describe. This is of course not a "normal" situation but I expect every college will institute a COI policy. You work for Duke. You cannot collect $ from any other source that would jeopardize the performance or loyalty to Duke as long as you work here.

Example: you work for PNC Bank. You can't also work for XYZ Leasing Corp., and funnel some of your business to XYZ and some of it to PNC. As an employee of PNC, you have to work for the sole benefit of PNC. You could, however, do work on the side for your events planning business that doesn't compete with PNC.
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Old 06-22-2021, 01:47 PM
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Any notion if this is a scholarship (i.e. room/board and tuition) plus a salary? Or do they pull the plug and basically say we're now paying you and it's up to you to pay your room and board now. I agree it will be tough for the Dayton's of the world to pay up. But the same limitations will still exist relative to the big goals. The carrot will still be the NFL/NBA/MLB (maybe less so on MLB). That requires playing time and performance and there is only so much room on the field/court. I do wonder how this will play out in terms of poaching. UD has a player like Obi, and Kentucky sees a final piece in their puzzle and throw money on the table. How does a school like UD compete? Will contracts now have buyouts or something?

So many questions. I agree though that the already tilted table just shifted towards the haves ......
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Old 06-22-2021, 02:53 PM
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The Nike's of the world will just give a huge donation to the school. Then the school passes it on to the athlete. Not sure what language ever prevents that.

What a mess!!
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Old 06-22-2021, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
The Nike's of the world will just give a huge donation to the school. Then the school passes it on to the athlete. Not sure what language ever prevents that.

I think the language that prevents it is "money laundering".
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Old 06-22-2021, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
The Nike's of the world will just give a huge donation to the school. Then the school passes it on to the athlete. Not sure what language ever prevents that.

What a mess!!
Agree money will come from everyhere, boosters, interested parties, athletic budgets. This will be a can of worms. Those that have get more, those that don't get less. Olympic sports could be in real danger especially at the smaller schools. NCAA's lack of foresight has led to a lot of this. They will be in butt-covering mode now, but it is probably too late. NFL and NBA lite coming to the schools. Although in fairness, it is already there at the major schools.
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Old 06-22-2021, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Canonball View Post
Any notion if this is a scholarship (i.e. room/board and tuition) plus a salary? Or do they pull the plug and basically say we're now paying you and it's up to you to pay your room and board now. I agree it will be tough for the Dayton's of the world to pay up. But the same limitations will still exist relative to the big goals. The carrot will still be the NFL/NBA/MLB (maybe less so on MLB). That requires playing time and performance and there is only so much room on the field/court. I do wonder how this will play out in terms of poaching. UD has a player like Obi, and Kentucky sees a final piece in their puzzle and throw money on the table. How does a school like UD compete? Will contracts now have buyouts or something?

So many questions. I agree though that the already tilted table just shifted towards the haves ......
This is an interesting comment...these players will be under contracts. Non-compete clauses. Penalties for breaking a contract that would have to be paid - the player or new school? New schools buyout coach contracts now. If a player is “Built at Dayton” I’d put big buyout clauses in those employment contracts. Will the universities band together like pro team owners and trade for players? Not allow them out of contracts? Is this the new NCAA role....being hired by schools to protect the member schools’ interests?

The players might get paid, but they may have less options to move. They may be under a four year contract. That would be interesting. No more transfer portal. No more leaving when a coach that recruited you leaves.

Be careful what you ask for.
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Old 06-22-2021, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
What's the Oregon St coach gonna be able to offer to counter that? A $750 spokesperson deal for Chop Suey Paradise in downtown Corvallis?
A closer view of Portland burning itself to the ground.
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Old 06-22-2021, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Chris, the situation you describe is covered by most conflict of interest policies at nearly every company. For the reason you describe. This is of course not a "normal" situation but I expect every college will institute a COI policy. You work for Duke. You cannot collect $ from any other source that would jeopardize the performance or loyalty to Duke as long as you work here.

Example: you work for PNC Bank. You can't also work for XYZ Leasing Corp., and funnel some of your business to XYZ and some of it to PNC. As an employee of PNC, you have to work for the sole benefit of PNC. You could, however, do work on the side for your events planning business that doesn't compete with PNC.
Understand your point. But what's to stop the flow of funds to the players by the boosters / Nike, etc? It happens today. I just don't see a COI stopping the people who feel they can get away with it.
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Old 06-22-2021, 08:34 PM
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So if this ruling eventually leads to players getting paid, does that mean guys like Roy Williams, Sean Miller, Bill Self, and John Calipari, get recognized as "visionaries"? Does Larry Brown finally get the "Lifetime achievement" award he richly deserves?
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Old 06-22-2021, 08:42 PM
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Old 06-22-2021, 09:47 PM
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Old 06-23-2021, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Chris, the situation you describe is covered by most conflict of interest policies at nearly every company. For the reason you describe. This is of course not a "normal" situation but I expect every college will institute a COI policy. You work for Duke. You cannot collect $ from any other source that would jeopardize the performance or loyalty to Duke as long as you work here.

Example: you work for PNC Bank. You can't also work for XYZ Leasing Corp., and funnel some of your business to XYZ and some of it to PNC. As an employee of PNC, you have to work for the sole benefit of PNC. You could, however, do work on the side for your events planning business that doesn't compete with PNC.
I can dig that argument.

But if a kid goes to Duke, is he employed by Duke, or is he employed by Nike which is on the Duke uniforms? If he cannot sign an endorsement deal with Adidas while at Duke because Duke is a Nike school, can the kid also not do a promotionally-paid TV commercial for the local Durham Mercedes dealership because the Audi dealership across the street is a paid sponsor of Duke basketball? Is that a conflict of interest too because the MB dealer might take biz away from the Audi dealer? Both the Audi dealership and Nike are sponsoring Duke basketball. Can he sign a contract with Coca Cola if the UD Arena and the UD campus is furnished by Pepsico?

If you go to Liberty University, does doing a paid promotional for Planned Parenthood create the same conflict of interest with the Liberty brand that Liberty could prohibit? What if you sign a deal to write a paid column every month for the NRA magazine where you write about supporting campus-carry? Can Virginia Tech prohibit that because it detracts from their brand and causes mental anguish among the student body? These are all grandiose what-ifs but it just begs the question as to how far you can take this because you can bet everybody is going to try -- the kids are going to try to monetize every way possible and the institutions are going to try to put a stranglehold on which brands and messaging they are allowed to endorse. Everybody is going to come calling to these kids -- not just products but also projects and causes. Imagine a nudie magazine/web site paying buff male and female college athletes stupid money to pose in their birthday suits. Is that fair game? I have no idea. Im just asking because every business under the sun is going to ask too. People will do anything to make money -- and Im not even saying this is a bad thing. Im just saying its something Id prepare for rather than presume some altruistic moral conscience will prevail.
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Old 06-23-2021, 08:52 AM
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All the listed issues are real but then that is why there are lawyers and why there are contracts and contract law. I would expect the relationships to be similar to other professional athlete contracts.

But the relationship of the student athlete to the school is binary in a unique way as the athlete is also a student or visa versa. However pro athletes have already had to deal with issues unrelated to performance in their contracts. The NFL players have what are in effect morality clauses in their contracts. As the NFL seeks to control the players' off field activities. What does a player who beats his wife have to do with his play on the field but his contract will have a provision which allows the team to suspend him without pay.
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Old 06-23-2021, 10:23 AM
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Old 06-23-2021, 10:24 AM
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Dang! I did not know **** would be censored. Laughing as I am typing.
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Old 06-23-2021, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by O Doyle Rules View Post
Dang! I did not know **** would be censored. Laughing as I am typing.

You can say dam or dam* or d*mn or d@mn.
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Old 06-23-2021, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
I can dig that argument.

But if a kid goes to Duke, is he employed by Duke, or is he employed by Nike which is on the Duke uniforms? If he cannot sign an endorsement deal with Adidas while at Duke because Duke is a Nike school, can the kid also not do a promotionally-paid TV commercial for the local Durham Mercedes dealership because the Audi dealership across the street is a paid sponsor of Duke basketball? Is that a conflict of interest too because the MB dealer might take biz away from the Audi dealer? Both the Audi dealership and Nike are sponsoring Duke basketball. Can he sign a contract with Coca Cola if the UD Arena and the UD campus is furnished by Pepsico?

If you go to Liberty University, does doing a paid promotional for Planned Parenthood create the same conflict of interest with the Liberty brand that Liberty could prohibit? What if you sign a deal to write a paid column every month for the NRA magazine where you write about supporting campus-carry? Can Virginia Tech prohibit that because it detracts from their brand and causes mental anguish among the student body? These are all grandiose what-ifs but it just begs the question as to how far you can take this because you can bet everybody is going to try -- the kids are going to try to monetize every way possible and the institutions are going to try to put a stranglehold on which brands and messaging they are allowed to endorse. Everybody is going to come calling to these kids -- not just products but also projects and causes. Imagine a nudie magazine/web site paying buff male and female college athletes stupid money to pose in their birthday suits. Is that fair game? I have no idea. Im just asking because every business under the sun is going to ask too. People will do anything to make money -- and Im not even saying this is a bad thing. Im just saying its something Id prepare for rather than presume some altruistic moral conscience will prevail.

Non compete clauses are generally not enforceable but organizations use them all the time. I did.

A university could add to their scholarship agreement a clause which would revoke the scholarship if the athlete endorses a product, service etc. that is in violation of the university's standard etc. Scholarships are for one year anyway. It would then depend upon who has leverage. A Zion Williamson would have great leverage. Ibi Watson or Rodney Chatman might not.

I generally agree that the Power 5 and top schools will benefit much more as they have deeper pocket boosters and supporters. Realistically though players who go those top universities never consider UD anyway. Luke Kenard turned down UD's offer when he was a sophomore in high school.
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Old 06-23-2021, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
Understand your point. But what's to stop the flow of funds to the players by the boosters / Nike, etc? It happens today. I just don't see a COI stopping the people who feel they can get away with it.
What stops me from getting $ from the board members or shareholders of my company? Nothing. Except, they presume I'm already fairly paid. If players are fairly paid there's no reason to do so. Under the table payments are to avoid getting caught, in a free market for the player's services the highest bidder wins.

Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
But if a kid goes to Duke, is he employed by Duke, or is he employed by Nike which is on the Duke uniforms? . . . . People will do anything to make money -- and Im not even saying this is a bad thing. Im just saying its something Id prepare for rather than presume some altruistic moral conscience will prevail.

All great and interesting questions. Here's another.

At my company I have a job I get paid for. I occasionally have to pass a company sponsored examination like a 1 hour class on ethics or privacy policies. These players will also have 2 jobs: they must perform on the field, and they must achieve minimum achievement on company sponsored examinations. There is a 0% chance that I will be fired for not passing one of these exams, at WORST I have to take it again until I pass. And honestly no one really cares if I pass it or not, it's a check the box exercise.

And what do we expect these employees will think of their check the box exercise of taking philosophy 101? The company (Duke, tOSU) has no interest in whether or not they learn something, they just have to check the box. They never did care, but now as a paid employee, they don't even have to pretend to care. So just hand them grades and let's get on with it.
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Old 06-23-2021, 01:40 PM
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It will be interesting to see how this plays out in other sports. Of course women's sports will present a different problem. Will women's BB and volleyball sue for equal pay?
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Old 06-23-2021, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
And what do we expect these employees will think of their check the box exercise of taking philosophy 101? The company (Duke, tOSU) has no interest in whether or not they learn something, they just have to check the box. They never did care, but now as a paid employee, they don't even have to pretend to care. So just hand them grades and let's get on with it.
I think the school cares, Beth Flach cares.
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Old 06-24-2021, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I think the school cares, Beth Flach cares.

I'm saying in the near future that will be past tense. "Cared." Once they're simply employees you have a different value proposition, the deal changes. You show up and win games and I pay you, that's the deal. You lose games and I fire you.

School? Who cares. You're an employee. You have a job, and it's to win games. If you'd like to take classes on the side go for it.
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Old 06-24-2021, 09:26 AM
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I suspect almost all athletes in sports other than men's BB and football care about their education. In those two sports probably more care than do not care, especially in the schools not producing many pro athletes. Too often judgements are made based on the TX and OSU's of the world, when there are about 375 D1 basketball schools, and a lesser amount of football schools, who may have to pay athletes.
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Old 06-24-2021, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
I'm saying in the near future that will be past tense. "Cared." Once they're simply employees you have a different value proposition, the deal changes. You show up and win games and I pay you, that's the deal. You lose games and I fire you.

School? Who cares. You're an employee. You have a job, and it's to win games. If you'd like to take classes on the side go for it.
Your top athletes in football and basketball don't care about school now. That won't change at all.

Beth Flach has one of the most thankless jobs anyone could have. Beth is exhausted at the end of every academic year. The new transfer rules will give her even more pressure with regards to eligibility. Give credit to UD, and the entire academic staff for pushing education on UD's athletes. It is an uphill battle.
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Old 06-24-2021, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
I can dig that argument.

But if a kid goes to Duke, is he employed by Duke, or is he employed by Nike which is on the Duke uniforms? If he cannot sign an endorsement deal with Adidas while at Duke because Duke is a Nike school, can the kid also not do a promotionally-paid TV commercial for the local Durham Mercedes dealership because the Audi dealership across the street is a paid sponsor of Duke basketball? Is that a conflict of interest too because the MB dealer might take biz away from the Audi dealer? Both the Audi dealership and Nike are sponsoring Duke basketball. Can he sign a contract with Coca Cola if the UD Arena and the UD campus is furnished by Pepsico?

If you go to Liberty University, does doing a paid promotional for Planned Parenthood create the same conflict of interest with the Liberty brand that Liberty could prohibit? What if you sign a deal to write a paid column every month for the NRA magazine where you write about supporting campus-carry? Can Virginia Tech prohibit that because it detracts from their brand and causes mental anguish among the student body? These are all grandiose what-ifs but it just begs the question as to how far you can take this because you can bet everybody is going to try -- the kids are going to try to monetize every way possible and the institutions are going to try to put a stranglehold on which brands and messaging they are allowed to endorse. Everybody is going to come calling to these kids -- not just products but also projects and causes. Imagine a nudie magazine/web site paying buff male and female college athletes stupid money to pose in their birthday suits. Is that fair game? I have no idea. Im just asking because every business under the sun is going to ask too. People will do anything to make money -- and Im not even saying this is a bad thing. Im just saying its something Id prepare for rather than presume some altruistic moral conscience will prevail.
The former happens all the time in the NBA, and it generally isn't much of a problem. It just occasionally leads to some funny moments where a player may avoid being in a photo using a competing brands product.

The latter happens all the time, everywhere. What you do with your personal brand is up to you - there may be consequences based on those decisions, though. I don't see how being allowed to get paid for the work changes this equation at all.
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Old 06-24-2021, 10:44 AM
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Old 06-24-2021, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
I suspect almost all athletes in sports other than men's BB and football care about their education. In those two sports probably more care than do not care, especially in the schools not producing many pro athletes. Too often judgements are made based on the TX and OSU's of the world, when there are about 375 D1 basketball schools, and a lesser amount of football schools, who may have to pay athletes.

I fail to see how anyone could struggle with the concept that this will make it worse. Not the same, and not better. Worse.

Of course I'm not talking about the UD women's cross country team. That's obviously a strawman argument. There's no professional cross country league and yes I know there's professional track athletes. Arguments to the contrary are just looking to be pendantic not seriously engage in the discussion.

So what we're talking about are, obviously, football, men's basketball, some women's basketball, and a few other very select potential cases. Within those couple of sports, 6 out of 10 athletes likely still care about their education even at the top schools.

Having established what should be obvious, the point is that the SCHOOLS will no longer have a reason to pretend to care. The toothless NCAA, if it even continues to require college employees to take classes in order to play sports, seems likely to admit the farce and recognize basket weaving as a major. tOSU, free from having to pretend athletes are scholars, will simply pay their employees top dollar and let the 6/10 who care about their education go somewhere else. The 4/10 will be salaried and spend their entire day playing sports or recovering.

Last edited by Gazoo; 06-24-2021 at 01:07 PM..
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Old 06-25-2021, 02:26 AM
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I go back to an earlier point I made: a lot of these "this is how it will work out b/c this is how its done in the business world" suggests the athletes will be treated as employees. But if that's so and their contracts and clauses and non-competes (and things like OSHA, EEOE, taxation, etc) and all the rest will fall under that jurisdiction, does that also mean they inherit the pitfalls and risks too -- such as being fired on the spot for lack of performance?

In a way it seems like the athletes are having their cake and eating it too: they enjoy all the protections of status and eligibility in their chosen athletic craft with guaranteed 1yr renewable scholarships regardless of aptitude, but also reap the reward of capitalizing on their NIL with financial gain despite having little to no skin in the game in the process. In effect they want the guaranteed "income" of a full scholarship athlete, but also the side-hustle income from their NIL that is leveraged from the platform that very university, scholarship, and athletic program provides for them. They arent getting on TV without it.

If you truly want to be a hired gun and shoot hoops for a living and make money off your craft and NIL, then you should also take upon the risk of being "let go" after a string of bad performances on the court. Its like this with the rest of the working world: you can walk into work one day and the boss simply says "you're done here, pack your desk up and have a nice day...we've found someone else that can do your job better than you can."

One possible solution:

1 Choose to continue being treated as a student athlete. You get your tuition, books, lab fees, meals, room & board all paid for in exchange for your athletic prowess -- assuming you stay academically eligible. Your scholarship remains 1yr renewable. As long as you are academically eligible and on good behavior, its a gentleman's agreement that every 1yr renewable scholarship lasts the entire academic year once that year starts, and in most cases will honor itself for at least 4 academic seasons regardless of athletic performance or injury. All you have to do is make grades, stay out of trouble and have a good attitude. The positive is you all but guarantee yourself a free education. The downside is no side-hustle leveraged from the platform the school is providing you. Lots of security, lower potential ceiling.

2. You announce your intentions to capitalize on your NIL and go into business for yourself. You can sign endorsement deals, run pay-for-hire camps, sign autographs for cash, create your own web site and charge premium members for content, pen articles or make appearances with publications or news outlets, and leverage the platform the university and athletic program provides for you without any royalty owed. Your financial ceiling is more or less unregulated by the NCAA. However, you are responsible for putting yourself through college, buying your own books, meal tickets, dorm room/apartment rental, etc. And you can be dismissed from the university at any moment for lack of athletic performance or injury alone. Basically be treated like any other for-hire employee. Its self-aware that you are there to excel in athletics and make money on your athletic talent and school is merely a necessary evil to maintain good standing. But because you are not enrolled chiefly to educate first and play sports second, academic eligibility alone does not secure your position at the university. Your intention is to "major" in your athletic team and "minor" in academia. Because of this, your evaluation and enrollment status is based on your athletic performance. Miss too many free throws or ground into too many double plays, you might be flipping patties at Whammyburger by the end of the month. Less security, but higher potential financial ceiling.

Another solution is simply force the NBA and other pro leagues to drop their age requirements (settle on 18). This might be the best solution. Graduate HS, then go straight to NBA, MLS, NFL etc. Just bypass college altogether and take this conversation off the table entirely.
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Old 07-01-2021, 02:26 PM
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Old 07-02-2021, 10:00 AM
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Let’s look at baseball for a second. Baseball has a) college and b) professional minor leagues. A quality baseball player has options that fit Chris R’s options, today. Perhaps, basketball should follow the baseball model. Of course, things have changed for college sports with pay for athletes.
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Old 07-02-2021, 10:11 AM
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I gotta think the player's potential to make more $, would also be tied to how well the team overall performs... go back to the 29-2 season, and think of how many endorsements those guys would have received.

Not only Jalen and Obi... but have to think the local businesses would have loved to use Trey and Ryan as well (Mikesell's potato chips being is an obvious one).
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Old 07-06-2021, 10:05 PM
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"Name and likeness" doesn't hold as much weight with a kid who no one knows outside of a fan base. Is McAfee Heating and Air floating a kid a house? Is Clay Mathile suddenly going to loan kids his jet at DIA? I also don't see your local Columbus State Farm office doing much more for a tOSU football player.

If a kid wants to run a summer camp and make a few grand it is what it is. But I don't see much of this making that big of a deal. Obi could have made that money hosting camps no matter if he was at Dayton or UK.

The rules are coming into play where these players can't use university logos, gear, etc. In order to promote a service or product. If that's the case, many of these players offer the same recognition as anyone else.

We aren't talking the Zion's of the world... we are talking the other 98% of NCAA athletes.

The more I see the restrictions that schools are placing on this, the less that I'm worried about it.
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Old 07-07-2021, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
"Name and likeness" doesn't hold as much weight with a kid who no one knows outside of a fan base. Is McAfee Heating and Air floating a kid a house? Is Clay Mathile suddenly going to loan kids his jet at DIA? I also don't see your local Columbus State Farm office doing much more for a tOSU football player.

If a kid wants to run a summer camp and make a few grand it is what it is. But I don't see much of this making that big of a deal. Obi could have made that money hosting camps no matter if he was at Dayton or UK.
The issue is not whether the athlete is worth anything as a marketing tool.

For the payer of the student athlete, the athlete's marketing potential is irrelevant. In most cases the payor will be a school booster who uses his money to make his school's athletic program better. He already pays the premium contribution for a seat at the stadium, he now will need to make a direct contribution to the student athlete.

It could go like this. Coach speaks to the booster association meeting. He indicates recruiting is going well. When asked if there are any good players in the area, state or country, he lets drop a few names (wink Wink). The booster then makes contact with the named player and offers him or her a job but only if he or she attends the University. Whether the athlete ever helps sell a single product or boosts his business one iota is irrelevant. The Payor is not paying for the good it does his business but rather the good it does for his emotional love, his school.
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Old 07-07-2021, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by oldfan View Post
It could go like this. Coach speaks to the booster association meeting. He indicates recruiting is going well. When asked if there are any good players in the area, state or country, he lets drop a few names (wink Wink). The booster then makes contact with the named player and offers him or her a job but only if he or she attends the University. Whether the athlete ever helps sell a single product or boosts his business one iota is irrelevant. The Payor is not paying for the good it does his business but rather the good it does for his emotional love, his school.
That's still a recruiting violation even with the new rules.
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Old 07-07-2021, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
I go back to an earlier point I made: a lot of these "this is how it will work out b/c this is how its done in the business world" suggests the athletes will be treated as employees. But if that's so and their contracts and clauses and non-competes (and things like OSHA, EEOE, taxation, etc) and all the rest will fall under that jurisdiction, does that also mean they inherit the pitfalls and risks too -- such as being fired on the spot for lack of performance?

In a way it seems like the athletes are having their cake and eating it too: they enjoy all the protections of status and eligibility in their chosen athletic craft with guaranteed 1yr renewable scholarships regardless of aptitude, but also reap the reward of capitalizing on their NIL with financial gain despite having little to no skin in the game in the process. In effect they want the guaranteed "income" of a full scholarship athlete, but also the side-hustle income from their NIL that is leveraged from the platform that very university, scholarship, and athletic program provides for them. They arent getting on TV without it.

If you truly want to be a hired gun and shoot hoops for a living and make money off your craft and NIL, then you should also take upon the risk of being "let go" after a string of bad performances on the court. Its like this with the rest of the working world: you can walk into work one day and the boss simply says "you're done here, pack your desk up and have a nice day...we've found someone else that can do your job better than you can."

One possible solution:

1 Choose to continue being treated as a student athlete. You get your tuition, books, lab fees, meals, room & board all paid for in exchange for your athletic prowess -- assuming you stay academically eligible. Your scholarship remains 1yr renewable. As long as you are academically eligible and on good behavior, its a gentleman's agreement that every 1yr renewable scholarship lasts the entire academic year once that year starts, and in most cases will honor itself for at least 4 academic seasons regardless of athletic performance or injury. All you have to do is make grades, stay out of trouble and have a good attitude. The positive is you all but guarantee yourself a free education. The downside is no side-hustle leveraged from the platform the school is providing you. Lots of security, lower potential ceiling.

2. You announce your intentions to capitalize on your NIL and go into business for yourself. You can sign endorsement deals, run pay-for-hire camps, sign autographs for cash, create your own web site and charge premium members for content, pen articles or make appearances with publications or news outlets, and leverage the platform the university and athletic program provides for you without any royalty owed. Your financial ceiling is more or less unregulated by the NCAA. However, you are responsible for putting yourself through college, buying your own books, meal tickets, dorm room/apartment rental, etc. And you can be dismissed from the university at any moment for lack of athletic performance or injury alone. Basically be treated like any other for-hire employee. Its self-aware that you are there to excel in athletics and make money on your athletic talent and school is merely a necessary evil to maintain good standing. But because you are not enrolled chiefly to educate first and play sports second, academic eligibility alone does not secure your position at the university. Your intention is to "major" in your athletic team and "minor" in academia. Because of this, your evaluation and enrollment status is based on your athletic performance. Miss too many free throws or ground into too many double plays, you might be flipping patties at Whammyburger by the end of the month. Less security, but higher potential financial ceiling.

Another solution is simply force the NBA and other pro leagues to drop their age requirements (settle on 18). This might be the best solution. Graduate HS, then go straight to NBA, MLS, NFL etc. Just bypass college altogether and take this conversation off the table entirely.
Your mention of scholarship money is a significant part of the issue, but you don't hear student athletes say "Ok, I'm getting a free education...so what!"
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Old 07-07-2021, 11:16 AM
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Chris' breakdown is over simplified and doesn't take into account what creates "employee" status. It also doesn't take into consideration the role of the parties. The school's will be at an arm's length from the endorsements. They aren't paying the money. The school is offering a scholarship outside of the possibility of a player being paid by a 3rd party. I understand that change is difficult. There will be abuses. But, schools have abused their monopoly powers as well. They have created enormous businesses on the backs of their players likenesses and personalities, not just their athletic achievements.

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Old 07-07-2021, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
That's still a recruiting violation even with the new rules.
And how does the NCAA prove that it is a recruiting violation.
if 1. There is a valid contract.
2. The Player has minimum performance duties.
3. No University official enters into a written or even a verbal agreement with the booster to hire the athlete.
4. The booster can make the argument that the athlete has no value for promotional purposes if he is not playing for the team.

Call it abuse if you wish but I would call it practical application of the new rules.

Whatever the rules are the coach / recruiter will go to the edge of the line and hopefully not step over the line.
Perhaps that means when the coach is recruiting the athlete part of his pitch is:
a. your market value is greater if you play for my school
b. Look at what other players are making who are playing for my school
c. IE Some are making the big buck endorsing XYZ product

The main point is that the contract with the Athlete have some required action on the part of the Athlete but the contract will not be tied to any actual computation of the increase in sales resulting from the endorsement or other activity of the athlete. I would not believe these contracts are commission based. Therefore the return on the contract for the payor could in fact be based on something other than increase in sales.

And therefore my point is that these contracts and what the players are compensated for will for the most part not going to be based on what the athlete brings to the payors bottom line but what he does on the field independent of any promotional value.

Of course there will be some athletes who have a real market value but they will not constitute any but a very small minority of the athletes who are compensated for their supposed promotional value under the new rules.
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Old 07-07-2021, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by oldfan View Post
And how does the NCAA prove that it is a recruiting violation.
if 1. There is a valid contract.
2. The Player has minimum performance duties.
3. No University official enters into a written or even a verbal agreement with the booster to hire the athlete.
4. The booster can make the argument that the athlete has no value for promotional purposes if he is not playing for the team.
Boosters are still not allowed to contact recruits.
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Old 07-07-2021, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
Boosters are still not allowed to contact recruits.
Can you cite a reference providing that boosters cannot have contact with student athletes regarding the SA's NIL? My understanding is that a booster can now contract with and pay a SA regarding the use of the SA's likeness for business purposes. The limitation is that the contract cannot be based on the SA'S athletic performance.
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Old 07-07-2021, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
Can you cite a reference providing that boosters cannot have contact with student athletes regarding the SA's NIL? My understanding is that a booster can now contract with and pay a SA regarding the use of the SA's likeness for business purposes. The limitation is that the contract cannot be based on the SA'S athletic performance.
I'm referring to a booster contacting a potential recruit, not a current student athlete.
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Old 07-07-2021, 01:08 PM
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Here is a situation where a recruit signed a contract. Not sure he has started classes. Could be making more than the coach.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...nnessee-state/
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Old 07-07-2021, 01:38 PM
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The recruiting violation occurs when the coach mentions names.
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Old 07-07-2021, 04:29 PM
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I'm curious about when a booster can now have contact with a recruit and what a coach can disclose or facilitate. I tend to think that players will now consider what is available at different schools. They will weigh their options. I also tend to think that potential contracting third parties will be able to discuss opportunities with recruits so long as the discussions do no involve or turn on athletic performance or achievement. It's a new world with matters outside of the scholarship being considered.
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Old 07-07-2021, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
I'm curious about when a booster can now have contact with a recruit and what a coach can disclose or facilitate. I tend to think that players will now consider what is available at different schools. They will weigh their options. I also tend to think that potential contracting third parties will be able to discuss opportunities with recruits so long as the discussions do no involve or turn on athletic performance or achievement. It's a new world with matters outside of the scholarship being considered.
I don't know that boosters will need direct contact with recruits at all. All that will need to be known is that players on team "Y" (I know how sensitive some are around here about team "X") make some big number of $$ because big money donors sponsor the team for NIL purposes. There are any number of legal ways to funnel big booster money.
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Old 07-07-2021, 08:14 PM
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After reading all teh posts I keep thinking that the real money makers in all this will be attorneys.
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Old 07-08-2021, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Brad S. View Post
I don't know that boosters will need direct contact with recruits at all. All that will need to be known is that players on team "Y" (I know how sensitive some are around here about team "X") make some big number of $$ because big money donors sponsor the team for NIL purposes. There are any number of legal ways to funnel big booster money.

Exactly, some of you people are over-thinking it.

"Mrs. Jones, I'm not allowed to mention your son's name to boosters since that's a recruiting violation. And boosters are not allowed to contact you directly either. But I have boosters who have unequivocally guaranteed that my top 3 recruits will all qualify for NIL money of $50K each, guaranteed, as my top 3 recruits have received in each of the last 5 years. Your son will be one of my top 3 recruits. Therefore, I can guarantee your son $50K in payments if he signs with Dayton."
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Old 07-08-2021, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
Boosters are still not allowed to contact recruits.
Boosters are not allowed to contact recruits
but businesses offering promotional contracts are allowed to contact recruits.

As far as I know boosters do not need to register like lobbyists in Washington. So when the NCAA comes snooping, if they even do, there are no boosters. There are only businesses offering promotional contracts.

What's in a name?

Everything.
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Old 07-09-2021, 12:02 AM
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The washing of money is as American as apple pie. Should be interesting to see the NCAA and member institutions' oversight in this.
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Old 07-09-2021, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
The washing of money is as American as apple pie. Should be interesting to see the NCAA and member institutions' oversight in this.
Their oversight will be as good as the Unemployment Offices overseeing unemployment checks, so mediocre.

The reality is they cannot oversee the current system. Unless they spend a bunch of money and overhaul the oversight, we will get more of the same, or worse. This is their chance, but do the big schools, who run the NCAA, want a tighter oversight?
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Old 07-09-2021, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by oldfan View Post
Boosters are not allowed to contact recruits
but businesses offering promotional contracts are allowed to contact recruits.

As far as I know boosters do not need to register like lobbyists in Washington. So when the NCAA comes snooping, if they even do, there are no boosters. There are only businesses offering promotional contracts.

What's in a name?

Everything.
Your example was a head coach talking to a booster association and telling boosters which recruits to contact. It would also be against the rules for a coach to tell "businesses" which recruits to target or for "businesses" to make promotional offer that was contingent on enrollment at particular school as you suggested.
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Old 07-12-2021, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
Your example was a head coach talking to a booster association and telling boosters which recruits to contact. It would also be against the rules for a coach to tell "businesses" which recruits to target or for "businesses" to make promotional offer that was contingent on enrollment at particular school as you suggested.

Again, I really believe you're overthinking this.

Edit: better example. You weren't guaranteed that by the time you were a senior you would live in the Ghetto, right? That wasn't in a contract anywhere. But basically, you would (contingent upon enrollment at Dayton) have the chance to live in the Ghetto for at least your senior year. Did you ever doubt this??

Every year, the best 3 players (or 5, or the whole team) is guaranteed a $50K contract from Local Dayton Business Inc. That is, obviously, contingent upon the player going to Dayton. But it happens every single year without fail.

It's not guaranteed as in "written into a contract" somewhere. I don't think SMU boosters need a written contract either back in the days of SMU football cheating. It's just what happens every year. And when Local Dayton Business Inc. has a good year they can put out a press release in the DDN to report that next year they will play the players $60K. You know, whoever those players may be; the money is already set aside.

None of this requires the coach to offer the kid money, the kid to sign a contract with Local Dayton Business Inc., or for Local Dayton Business Inc. to contact a recruit.

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Old 07-20-2021, 06:47 PM
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cj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond repute
Granted this is Alabama Football but this young man may make enough in college to never have to work if he is smart with his money.

https://www.espn.com/college-footbal...ach-nick-saban
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